Becoming an instructor when you already have experience.

[Ilikeflying]

I am wondering if anyone has became an instructor after amassing considerable experience in a variety of non instructing roles.

Obviously one would start as a junior grade 3 irrespective of previous qualifications or experience, in the same boat of that of a fresh CPL with a rating.

Are there many flying schools that would see value in bringing real world experience to the table?

Has anyone ever became an instructor as a flying career change? Was it a good move?

[riseagainst]

Previous experience outside of flight instructing is a bonus, compared with a fresh grade three or a pilot with previous experience in other parts of an industry I know who I would choose to fly with.
I've always instructed with scenario based training and depending on the level of the student if it was legal we were in the air.
Instructing shouldn't be thought of as a stepping stone, more of a goal teaching and getting a student to the highest level possible. I've seen quite a few junior instructors milking students, whether it was from starting the plane up ASAP and letting the student shut down as they would be slower or milking an extra couple of points out of the flight when not required. :mad:

[Ultralights]

The industry need more instructors with a lot of non instructing experience! how can a fresh CPL/Instructor with 300 Hrs, never leaving the local area have any idea what to pass on to a student who wishes to head west into the great outback? or will they take you on a NVFR navex on a moonless night west of the great divide? no. only an experienced instructor, who has been there and done that can pass on that kind of knowledge, and wants to pass on those skills, and not there just building time for the shiny jet job.
I was fortunate back in the day to have been guided by Jack Curtis, and he made sure all my instructors were ex Military and loved instructing, even my most recents instructor for my advanced control and aeros has been ex fast jet.

[DeltaT]

Unfortunately the issue becomes one of living on the pay

[iPahlot]

Unfortunately the issue becomes one of living on the pay

Can't be any worse than what the OP experienced in GA!


I think they really should start setting minimum flight hours for fixed wing instructors like they do for rotary. The more real experience the instructor has the better I say :ok:

[FoolCoarsePitch]

The question is just how liberally will you be able to pass on your real world experience to students? These days SOPs must be followed to the T and any deviation from the McDonalds approach will draw the ire of colleagues and superiors. It would be quite depressing having the knowledge to create a fine young graduate but being unable to because its not actually wanted or appreciated.

[Ixixly]

I faced this situation not that long ago myself, personally I feel like my Experience worked against me as the School appeared to be looking for Instructors with no "Bad Habits" garnered from GA.

I can't say I entirely blame them but it sure was a kick to the guy and I feel that the Bigger schools care less about your past experience as they're more focused on strictly following SOPs and Standardisation which they feel can be compromised by more experienced Pilots who will teach the SOP and then show them "The way you'll actually do it". Once again, I can't blame them, it's a perfectly valid way of doing it (The best way?) but then I feel it really defeats the purpose of having experience except for the confidence it gives your Students at the beginning.

Personally I'd recommend aiming for the Smaller Schools, they'll likely be more appreciative of your experience and allow you the ability to change things up a bit more to suit your Student and your own Experience.

[Ultralights]

sadly with the follow the book methods, is that, every student is different, and learns differently, so its almost impossible to have a one method suits all approach..

[PA39]

Flew charter for the first 3000hrs, then instructor, CP/CFI finally retirement scrap heap. massed around 14500 hrs at a guess. ALL enjoyable and would do it all again tomorrow should one of you computer geeks work out a way to wind back the ageing clock!! Met sooo many great people, too many to list but 4 hold a special place in my heart Jack Curtis, Jimmy Hazelton and Bobby Gibbs, Treva Weekes. Taught me how to become an aviator!!

[Duck Pilot]

I have thought about doing an instructor rating as well, although I have put it on hold due to family commitments.

Couple of things that should be considered before you commit;
Suggest that you have a good alternative stable income on the side and the transition from Grade 3 to 1 could take years. Having said this, I believe there is currently a shortage in Flight Examners (ATOs), so their could be some good opportunities once you get to that level.

Agree with targeting the smaller schools to do your rating/get work. The larger schools are generally more tied up with foreign airline students.

SOPs during initial pilot training, that's the typical sausage factory mentality - they aren't teaching robots. What are they teaching, people to operate within a box? What happens when something goes wrong outside of the box. Might explain why there has recently been a high number of accidents caused by pilots loosing of control in flight.

[The name is Porter]

I have worked with a young bloke that did his CPL out of a sausage factory that is notorious for it's low skill level product. He did a cheapy instructor rating where he was fed all of the briefs. He is a great instructor because he knew there was more to flying than bludging through courses, he studies his topic, researches and doesn't teach something til he's read everything he can on the subject.

On the other hand I've worked with some older, life experienced, higher hour instructors who are complete dickheads.

Comes down to attitude in my opinion. Being able to look a student in the eye, shake their hand, talk to them. Have a laugh with them but be professional and give them value for their hard earned money.

[DeltaT]

they feel can be compromised by more experienced Pilots who will teach the SOP and then show them "The way you'll actually do it".

Does that point to people at the top /CFI of the training organisation who don't know any better, and won't accept an alternative from the lower ranks? Is it really because there are too many inept pilots at the top of some of these places, that are ignorant, that this bias against experience exists?

I was called argumentative by my renewal instructor recently for challenging things I knew were just plain wrong. I've thought about listing a few of them that without my "aviation experience" I would not know otherwise, -but whats the point. It happens even in airlines, and pilots don't bother to speak up for fear of sticking their head out into the firing line, and you see it in pilot recruitment too; sheep followers do much better. So much for the safety culture we are supposed to be embracing.

It is a shame the industry has become the way it has. With the removal of some key people across the place things could be so much better.
As has been pointed out earlier, I agree, go to the smaller places that will more than likely appreciate knowledgeable input.

[Duck Pilot]

Other issue is that CASA haven't provided any useful direction recently with the Parts 61, 141 and 142 mess. The Part 61 MOS explains it all!!!!!

[Arm out the window]

Dead right - the MOS doesn't appear to be particularly useful for anything except listing a bunch of topics 'someone' thinks should be covered when teaching or learning a particular skill, but without any content.

To me, it comes across as basically a cop-out - we'll tell you broadly what to teach but how you achieve it is up to you. No standardisation of techniques or even suggestions as to the best way to do things.

We don't have to all do the same, and there are many ways of achieving good outcomes when it comes to getting things done airborne, so prescriptive direction isn't all that good, but with all this money spent in producing the new order it would have been nice to see the majority of it focussed on distilling years of hard-earned lessons into a really good guts guide to what works and how to teach it.

PS back on topic after I got carried away! Experienced instructors, just what we need I reckon, particularly if you get some enjoyment from passing on what you've learnt and helping someone else realise their dreams. It can get a bit samey sometimes, but each student is a different person who learns a bit differently, so it's never really the same day twice; and if as noted above there's not a lot of good guidance from things like the MOS, it falls to instructors to fill in the blanks from their own experience, so if you have a fair whack of it you're doing the industry a favour by passing some of it on.

[das Uber Soldat]

I have thought about doing an instructor rating as well, although I have put it on hold due to family commitments.

Couple of things that should be considered before you commit;
Suggest that you have a good alternative stable income on the side and the transition from Grade 3 to 1 could take years. Having said this, I believe there is currently a shortage in Flight Examners (ATOs), so their could be some good opportunities once you get to that level.

Agree with targeting the smaller schools to do your rating/get work. The larger schools are generally more tied up with foreign airline students.

SOPs during initial pilot training, that's the typical sausage factory mentality - they aren't teaching robots. What are they teaching, people to operate within a box? What happens when something goes wrong outside of the box. Might explain why there has recently been a high number of accidents caused by pilots loosing of control in flight.
Unpopular opinion time. :)

I spent a great deal of time instructing in the mid 2000's. G1, META etc. I was good at my job and enjoyed for the most part what I did.

The biggest issue I had in my time there, was people like you showing up. While this will obviously cause offence, its not actually my intent.

Experience is great, it has its place. No question. Otherwise experienced but new instructors were typically best when used in the capacity relating to that experience. 99% of them who came back into instructing had come from an airline style environment, operating IFR. So in IFR training, they were great. They could impart so much more than someone who had only ever instructed.

But nearly without exception, they were woeful at everything else. The first problem is attitude. You're experienced, you know you are. So you view those who don't have your experience with thinly veiled contempt, make comments about sausage factories and misguided statements about 'loosing control' due to crappy instructors. Always a great start.

From there, operating via any kind of standard is typically out the door. Lets look at your statements in this thread. You haven't even begun an instructor rating yet and already you've tossed the schools procedures out the door because you know better. This creates a wonderful headache for the senior instructors trying to manage a students progress. It creates frustration among students because if they go from one instructor to another, all of a sudden everything is different. "nah mate, do the PFL this way, I've been flying a 737 IFR for the last 10 years, this is how we did it in that".

Lastly, the experience you have most often is entirely irrelevant to what you're actually teaching. Its all well and good to have 5 figures operating IFR in a multi crew aircraft with sophisticated auto flight systems. But that has SFA to do with instructing someone a PFL or indeed most ab initio sequences.

Conversely, even the most junior instructor has only ever been operating this category of aircraft, doing just these sequences for hundreds of hours. ASPT, picking and using reference features, using those pedal things down the bottom of the cockpit that most of us never touch above 50 feet, visual navigation, time map ground, doing 1/60s and the list goes on.

In all these sequences they, not you are the experienced ones. They're the ones who have been knee deep in this stuff for the last few years. They may have been learning it at some early stage, true, but they're engrossed and familiar with it. Under direct supervision of senior instructors, they're more than capable of teaching the first ab initio sequences and as they gain experience, can be put into more advanced roles. You (2nd person plural) on the other hand, haven't been doing this stuff for the last few years, or even flying these types of aircraft. You're starting from 0. They at least have a running start.

So far I've only dealt with very junior instructors. The differences magnify when we look at experienced Grade 1's. The ability to impart knowledge is a learned skill. An experienced G1 sits in the right seat and 'sees' so much more than even an otherwise highly experienced but new instructor. They have in their arsenal a wide range of tools they can implement to identify and address difficulties the student is having. A student has played a lot of flight sim, but is now having difficulty maintaining straight and level. I know why, do you?

The ability of an instructor relates to their attitude. There are woeful instructors, and great ones. The only correlative factor I've ever witnessed is attitude. 737 time wasn't one.

Now, bring on the abuse! :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I had 1000+hrs private business flying/GA/charter when I did my Instructor's Rating. After my first renewal, I let the rating lapse cause I didn't particularly like instructing, and went back to private business flying/GA/charter! :E

[pilotchute]

My flying school didn't like those experienced outside the world of instructing either.

My school had all these "rules" too,
No landing on dirt or grass
No tailwind landings
No single engine ifr

One instructor thought that these rules were ridiculous and going to try and find a job in charter without these skills was ridiculous

I did all three with this instructor. Oh and we did dual navs in less than perfect weather!

I know what type of instructors I prefer.

[glenb]

Beautifully said. Absolutely spot on. The experienced guys are great, BUT you must come into it and conduct yourself like a Grade Three. Be prepared to be mentored, supervised, and advised. If you really wont be able to accept that. Don't do it!

[Duck Pilot]

Fair comments das, not sure if your comments are directly related my comments or are just general observations.

As you have alluded to, it really depends on what kind of experience the high time new grade 3s have together with their attitude. In my case, I've never flown a jet, have extensive GA experience and have been involved in C&T with a couple of turbo prop operators. Instead of going down the instructor path after I got my CPL, I decided to go North.

Good informative thread.

[das Uber Soldat]

My flying school didn't like those experienced outside the world of instructing either.

My school had all these "rules" too,
No landing on dirt or grass
No tailwind landings
No single engine ifr

One instructor thought that these rules were ridiculous and going to try and find a job in charter without these skills was ridiculous

I did all three with this instructor. Oh and we did dual navs in less than perfect weather!

I know what type of instructors I prefer.
Ah the age old straw man argument. Where would the internet be without it :D

The 'rules' that you sarcastically cry about have nothing to do with the subject at hand, that is the relation between non instructing experience and instructing ability.

My school allowed all those things, yet was staffed primarily by instructors who had done nothing outside of that field. You're trying to establish a tenuous at best correlation between career instructors and restrictive learning environments where in reality no such link exists.

[Ultralights]

after my initial PPL with Brian Wetless and Jack curtis, when Brian retired, i moved over to a big name school in YSBK, one day they changed CFI, i hired a cherokee, book it for a 3 hour block, took it to a 800 Mtr grass field, landed, did an hour in an RAAus aircraft, returned to YSBK. the CFI ask where i had been all this time, as the aircraft only had about 1 hour on the clock, i told him, then get swiftly told i can never land their aircraft on grass, did i do my take off distance available checks, etc etc, what i did was stupid and dangerous etc, (the previous CFI had no issues with my flying it into that same 800mtr strip.) and strongly advised i look somewhere else to hire aircraft...


that school shut down not long after that... :ugh:

and my most recent experience with what i feel to be a good school for taking pilots out of their comfort zone, was NVFR navs, out west, on new moon nights. to places that are most definitely black holes. then came the NVFR flight test with an ATO from another school. i wanted to go out west, he wanted none of that, and wanted to go to cessnock coastal.

[scavenger]

Yes, I know Part 61/141/142 will destroy flying training and all, but before that happens people might want to take advantage of being able to hold an instructor rating without a grade 1, 2 or 3 training endorsement.

The rules enable a person to teach multi IFR (or aeros, floats or whatever the persons specialty is) without the person having the first clue about teaching initial sequences for an RPL. This set up seems ideal for experienced guys who may want to avoid ab initio for the reasons given but whose experience in whatever area would be otherwise welcomed.

Makes FPC time more productive too, as the guy can show what he's good at, instead of fooling around in an aeroplane he never flies, teaching something he never teaches the students.

[Duck Pilot]

Never assume the demographics of the people who post on this forum, I'm currently not mainstream.

Good post Ultralights apart from the typo errors, don't worry I'm on my second bottle of wine 👍

[Homesick-Angel]

Good Post Das and Glen.

The main thing the original poster will need coming from their position is to put the ego in the back seat and start learning. I have seen experienced pilots with great skills who couldn't teach an alcoholic to drink beer.

Instructing is very specific, and not everyone has the knack, patience or skill (or will).

Its not a matter of simply getting the rating and doing it, you need to care about other peoples progress, their goals and areas to improve, understand several different ways to fix problems, and have the patience of a buddhist monk.
There is an element of practical psychology. When to use the stick and when to use the carrot, when someone is over anxious, sick or overconfident.
You need to be consistent and be able to deal with repetition. Understand when to draw back and let them make errors for the sake of learning, and when its safe to do so.
You have to put you're licence and reputation on the line to send someone solo, and understand that all students (all pilots really) make errors all the time.
You have to deal with other instructors who have dreamed of getting to airlines, but based on personality, skill or knowledge, will never get there and now aim all their angst at junior grade 3 instructors, or anyone "below" them. A lot of these people will be you're supervisors as at times some seriously strange people make it to the top, and they may drive you to distraction with things they have implemented that are frankly wrong, but they are in charge, and you have to suck it up.

You also have to do this for a wage on the poverty line.

On the flip side, helping someone achieve the goal of becoming a pilot whether it be to go solo, or eventually fly for an airline is an extremely satisfying experience. When you see someone start to get the "feel" for the intricacies of flying, or make an excellent decision without prompting, you get a buzz. Ive learnt a lot from students
There is also far more consistency in instruction both in the need for instructors throughout the industry, the regularity of hours (most of the time) and if at a large organisation, job security.

You're experience will of course be invaluable, but only if you can understand that you know nothing about teaching and learning (unless you have a background in these areas).

Good luck.