Do you ever think about the Danger Involved?

[BlenderPilot]

Has any of you ever thought of quitting flying helicopters because of the higher danger involved in respect to say airplanes or a regular land job?

Please admit it, flying helicopters, doing other than say, VIP, ENG, etc. is more dangerous than average jobs.

In 1999 I left helicopters to go fly Beechjets for a fractional program, there I realized that the difference in safety is enormous, in the 1 year I was there, I was never in a situation where I was anything more than having fun, or plain bored while flying, I never felt there was much I could do, or not do, that could seriously endanger myself, on the other side . . .

In helicopters over the past few years I've had a couple of close calls, even being extra careful and thinking eveything twice, there are just some things that are out of your control.

One thing I will never forget is an accident few years back where a Bell 412 was brought down by fireworks from a fair that was below, 8 people died and the pilot was as carefull as there are, I have more examples but what's the use, you know already.

Anybody who's flown helicopters for a while is missing a friend or two today, this gets me thinking sometimes, after all I've never met an airline pilot or corporate pilot who feels this way.

Please share your thoughts/experiences/opinions.

[TeeS]

No, can't say I have. Other reasons, yes: however given a choice of a twin engined helicopter and a light piston twin fixed wing, I know which I feel safer in.

[paco]

Part of the problem is the job you do with helicopters - how many King Airs do you find in clearings landing on slippery logs :)

I go by two things - my own sense of what is right and wrong (and I'm not afraid to tell any employer to shove it), and the maintenance. After that, I reckon if God wants me back I don't have much say in the matter!

phil

[SASless]

Paco is right....when you are called....you are going...kicking and screaming but going none the less! I wish to die in my sleep like my Grandpa....not screaming like his passengers!

[Thomas coupling]

Sometimes the admin that comes with my job gets me down. It's the flying that rejuvenates me. Last week I was told by another pilot who has just done some research on the salary market, that :

Articulated lorry drivers get a basic of £30,000 plus expenses.
Tanker drivers (BP Conoco Shell etc) get £40,000 basic.
Channel tunnel train drivers get £45,000 plus overtime!
(some of them gross £55,000).

When you compare some heli flying with these jobs you wonder why people struggle to fly-and for peanuts. I would argue that only a very few heli jobs offer exciting stimulating flying....thankfully I'm one of the lucky ones.
Many are either dangerous, dull or monotonous.


Dreams know no boundaries..................:)

[Roofus]

Blenderpilot in answer to your question, I'd have to say a resounding no. :D

I love flying helo's!

Do I think of the dangers? Yes.
Do they bother me? No.
Anything mechanical can break.....(Trust me I know!)

I often feel for 'plank' pilots. I see their life as dull & uneventful. I also admire them....throwing however many tonnes of aircraft at the earth to land is a scarey business!

Like Thomas Coupling I'm blessed to be in a job that is rewarding, exhilarating &, yes on occasions, dangerous. But the sense of acheivement & the enjoyment I derive from my flying far outweighs the negatives! :D

No matter how dangerous, saving a life is worth every moment!

Although his comments on salaries don't half make ya wonder! Why are helo pilots paid so badly???

Give it up......never! :D :D

[RW-1]

BP,

I know what you are saying, however I tend to look at any act of defying gravity as a risky endeavour :)

I have had thoughts of "Why?" on occasion, it's natural, to me if one didn't question risks taken, then I worry about that pilot, for that's what aviation is all about, risk management.

But I take that and channel it into effective planning, to make the operation as safe as possible. (This goes for anyone making any flight really).

[SandBlaster-214]

Nope.

For thirty years I've complained about the money, the maintenance, the benefits (or the lack thereof), the hours, the Feds, the boss(es)..., you name it. For thirty years I've threatened to walk away from it for the same reasons. The reason I haven't is simple; I really enjoy the hell out of what I do (OK, if a person can "love" what they do, yeah, I "love" flying helicopters). The one thing that I haven't ever been is worried or scared.

My niche is external load. I think it's what I do the best and, certainly, it's what I enjoy the most. Do I look at the "higher danger" of the job? No. Not that I think I'm bullet-proof or "I'm too good", I just don't look at it like that - I never have.

Like some of the others, I believe that I've been blessed with a full, rich life, and, sure, there are still a lot of things I'd like to do yet before I cross that final fence. I have a beautiful, intelligent daughter that I'd like to watch graduate and go to on to college. I hope to someday walk her down the aisle (just as long as she doen't marry a helicopter pilot). I just met a gal I'd like to date - who knows, maybe I'm getting a second chance at that kind of love too? I guess what I'm trying to say here is; I don't feel that flying helicopters will, in any way, increase the chances that I won't get to do these things.

You want to talk "dangerous", how about working as a convenience store clerk in Houston, Texas?!?

[BlenderPilot]

Mmmmh, interesting indeed . . . . . I thank you all for sharing your thoughts, to be honest this "thinking about the danger involved" has come during the past 8 months, I will be a father in about 30 days and I am now strangely doing the best preflights I have everdone, I no longer like and feel proud of "miracle takeoffs", I am starting to feel uncomfortable about hovering in "shaded area of the H/V diagram" for no apparent reason, and I would now NEVER set the autopilot of the Bell 230, and then jump to the rear to take a picture of an empty cockpit in flight!

thanks again!

[MaxNg]

Blenderpilot

Please don't take this as patronizing as it sounds but it sounds like you have become a "mature pilot" on behalf of all who fly with you

Congratulations

"Live long and prosper":D

[Lu Zuckerman]

I would assume that most pilots are concerned about safety both from a design and maintenance point of view. And, that many figure if the helicopter is certified then it is safe. However, prior to its’ certification people like me pick the design apart analyzing it from the standpoint of reliability, maintainability and safety (RMS). If the pilots could take part in these design reviews and listen to the lame excuses offered by the designers for not modifying the design to improve RMS many of them would give up flying or, they would increase their levels of life insurance.

:eek:

[BlenderPilot]

Lu,

Not too long ago a Bell Factory Instructror pilot came to give us training in the 230, I asked him why the 230 checklist had absolutely no sequence to it, you have to look up, down, sideways, everywhere, with every item, I always felt like I was in a submarine!

It just didn't make sense. He told me he agreed and that the only reason that they didn't change it, was because that's the way it was since the beginning and that changing it would be expensive primarily due to the cost of printing new sections of the manual! There are only 36 or so 230's flying.

[aultguish]

Hiya Bp........sorry to get away from helis and your poll but sounds to me like you got Daddyitis.
As soon as you mentioned that you are gonna be a daddy in 30 days, it reminded me of myself 10 years ago.
I used to do a lot of rock climbing and although I was extremely safe, as soon as I found out that I was gonna be a dad, well, that was it. Harnesses where treble checked, safety ropes where in abundance, more protection was put up than normal.......anyway, I think you get the picture.
Congratulations to you and your partner when the big day comes along.........the scary thoughts do wear off in time.......
Good luck, (pampers disposables are the best)

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: BlenderPilot

Bell is notorious for not following the suggestions of pilots and operators. In Iran I identified a chronic problem on the AH1-J instrument lighting system and suggested to Bell Helicopter how to fix the problem as it had to do with the design of the power supply that allowed it to be crushed during installation. That was in 1976 and the problem still exists. Another problem identified to Bell was the fact that the main rotor of the 214 was not bonded to the structure allowing the mast to become severely magnetized causing problems with the stand by compasses and the VOR. Bell never addressed the fix to this problem. There were many more similar design problems that were not addressed but if I went into detail I might be accused by the moderator of being biased.

:eek:

[Hoverman]

Not sure you'd be accused accused of being biased against Bell in particular Lu.
You make the same sort of claims about every manufacturer.
"If only they'd listened to meeeeee http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/moresleep2.gif

[Heliport]

Lu
I am a little concerned about the tone of your post, but have decided to leave it for the moment.
'Bias' is not the problem - for the reasons Hoverman identified.
However, PPRuNe has to be careful about allowing the forums to be used for making allegations / settling old scores.

Your views on Bell are more than balanced by the overwhelming number of complimentary comments made about Bell helicopters on this forum, and I suspect any Bell personnel who follow discussions on Rotorheads will immediately recognise your name and realise your comments don't do any harm them to their reputation.

[Buitenzorg]

Blenderpilot,

Maybe you could change the order of items on the checklist (sensibly, of course) to create a more natural "flow" and get this approved by your aviation authority (DGAC?). An operation I worked at did this for the B206 and got it approved by the FAA. The pre-start cockpit check became a very logical "flow sequence" that was easy, quick, complete and consistent. I believe it was definitely safer than the checklist order Bell prescribed.

If you foresee years of red tape and bureaucratic hassle it may not be worth it though...

[brigzy]

I've just spent the last 7 years flying Astars on the coast of BC Canada and the Yukon Territory. Comming from New Zealand, it was heli-pilots dream... I never thought I would complain about "too much flying", I guess thats a good problem.

Anyway, I gotta say that during the 7 years/4000 hrs I started to get a bit gun shy when it came to flying in the mountains in 40KT+ winds. Sometimes I would imagine the consequences of a fatal accident before I departed, the family and friends etc... Sounds odd but if anything it made my flying even safer. I didn't do this intentionally, it just keeped looming in the back of my mind.

I lost a very good mate 4 years ago, he was a long time friend that was killed in a Black Hawk doing a training mission at night in Australia. The accident involved 2 Black Hawks colliding. He wasn't even a pilot, he was an SAS Soldier. Anyway, his death seemed to have an effect on me as far as these odd thoughts going through my head everytime I had to go out on a wild mission.

Whoever said "we have all lost a mate or two" is so right. I've been flying helicopters for 13 years and I have lost a few mates. The thing that really gets to me, is the guys that die from either somebody elses mistakes or mechanical failure. In other words, they had no control over what took place, ending in their death. I find that disturbing for the simple fact that, I know that if I am incredibly carefull, I can still be killed at the drop of a hat. For the money we make, it really doesn't seem worth it, but helicopter flying is way too much fun and who the heck could go do a regular job after having that kind of lifestyle, I couldn't - no way !

I'm back in NZ and I'm a city pilot now, I get to do some good flying, lifting onto hi-rises in downtown Auckland etc in an Astar and have to say that, on a daily basis, I'm way more relaxed at the controls than in the mountains of Canada in a snow storm blowing 44 KTS approaching dark. My point is, it depends what you do !:rolleyes:

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Heliport

“I am a little concerned about the tone of your post.”
There was no tone to my post. I was replying to BlenderPilots’ statement about why the checklist could not be changed because that’s the way it was originally constructed. My comments about the intransigence of Bell to make changes to specific problems is based on three years as Manager of Technical Assistance for Bell Helicopter International. I made the final comment about the possibility of being chastised by one of the moderators as a joke.

Lu
By 'tone' I meant there is a risk Bell, just like any other reputable person or corporation, may not be too pleased to have allegations made against them on a public forum. I am concerned to avoid PPRuNe becoming involved in a dispute as a result of your comments.
I decided not to remove or edit your earlier post because I'm cautiously optimistic that Bell won't be too troubled when they see the name of Lu Zuckerman because you have a reputation for criticising all manufacturers who decline to accept your ideas. Sikorsky and Robinson come to mind immediately.
I appreciate you've worked for Bell; that is why I refered to PPRuNe having to be careful about people using the forums to make allegations / settle old scores.
I've deleted a sentence from your latest post. I'm confident you will understand the reason.
I asumed your final comment was meant as a joke, and took it in the spirit in which it was meant. My comments are serious.

Heliport

[BlenderPilot]

aultguish,

I'm afraid your affirmation maybe right, as for the diaper advice thanks I hadn't thought about that.

Buitenzorg,

I don't know about officially changing a checklist, but trust me its been a long time since I haven't done it the "red book way" I will never forget the nice easy way the 212/412 checklists are set up.

Lu,

Designers do weird stuff! Up till now every helicopter I have flown has the switches setup as for the ON position to be when they are forward.

When I went to fly the Beechjet, every switch is set up as to OFF when forward, during one of my first flights, during the ascent checklist I thought I had forgotten to retract the landing lights and since there was a 150 KTS limitation I instictively put the switch back and this actuallly extended the LL, at 380 KTS, needless to say the lights and their covers were pretty messed up and wouldn't retract properly after that, I know it was dumb of me to just flip the switches without looking for a second but it was instinctive.

Isn't there something like an international designer standard that dictates the way this things should be?

[Flying Lawyer]

"Isn't there something like an international designer standard that dictates the way this things should be?"

Perhaps we could start with all rotors turning the same way, and the captain's seat always being on the same side? ;)

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: BlenderPilot

In military design programs the constructors of the aircraft will have a product assurance department consisting of Reliability, Maintainability, Systems Safety and Human Factors Engineers. Two of the documents that drive the design for Human Factors are MIL-STD 1472 and MIL-HDBK 759A. 1472 is titled Human Engineering Design Criteria for Military Systems, Equipment and Facilities. 759A is titled Human Factors Engineering Design for Army Material.

Both of these documents address the design and layout of control panels and the switches and control devices applicable to those panels but not specifically those used in aircraft or helicopters. This would include the desired direction of switch movement in order to standardize the operation and control of differing equipments. Because of these documents you will find a high degree of commonality between different systems employed by the military. It is not to say that the designers will adhere to the documents to the letter but in most cases the systems will be inspected by representatives of the military service that will employ the systems and if they feel that the design is “Non-Standard” they will recommend a change. If in certain cases the manufacturer has limited experience in the design of the required system (Hughes had no experience when they won the Apache contract) so they hired a former Army combat pilot experienced in the Cobra and he finalized the design of the cockpit.

When some companies design an aircraft or helicopter to spec, that is, to penetrate the market there are no outside guidelines to adhere to. On a military contract RMS&HF are a part of the contract and the customer is billed for their design input. On a commercial development the participation of these groups is limited and what the customer gets is what the company designs which may or may not adhere to the two controlling documents described above.

:eek:

[t'aint natural]

In the last few years I've lost two very close friends to accidents. One of them hated aviation for its dangers and always poured scorn on my passion. He was killed falling off a mountain in Scotland in a fog. The other was an incurably addicted helicopter pilot who died in a road crash in Syria.
Do your checks, calculate your risks and don't do nothin' dumb, but never let fear stop you flying, because your time will come in turn. If you die without a mark on you, that's just gravy.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Fear< is that thing that grips your inards, just above your stomach and just below your rib cage, when it grips you then realise that the thing is starting to go pear shaped, it is your speed of reaction, and then memory that teaches you the lesson!;)

[What-ho Squiffy!]

I used to pause for a second every time I pulled my helmet on and say to myself "...I could die doing this stuff...". I didn't dwell on it, just reflected on the fact that it is dangerous and to switch on. It didn't stop me from being involved in a crash; however, I was lucky enough to get out of it and lived to fly another day.

Now, I believe I am a safer pilot - more conservative probably, but the trick is to stop this conservatism from turning into fear. And fear will turn you into a seagull.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

On reading T/Cs comment on the tread I have skipped through to add to his, really

I have spent an awfull lot to get where I am Low time with the right ticks in the boxs the job prospects are not good and the pay so far is to say the least poor

I wish to fly to achieve my final goal to fly hems this is not for the money but the job.

I did as most of you are aware 23 years in the fire service and found the go home at the end of the day and say that I made a differance was what it is all about. hems would give me both job satisfaction and do something that I like doing flying but to get there having students trying to kill you on a daily basis and to be paid poorly for the privalige is still a pill I am struggling to come to terms with but to get where I want to be you have to put up with.

But I love to fly

Regards

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Bladestrike]

I gave alot of thought regarding the danger involved many years ago, pretty early on in my career. I came to the conclusion that if I was asking myself the question, I was pushing, or allowing myself to be pushed, far too hard. What I ended up doing was setting very rigid standards for myself and not breaking them for anything. If I had the slightest concern for my saftey, I was obviously doing something very wrong, had made some unwise decision, and I would turn-around/land/not-take-off...whatever the case may be. It's just a job, and if you consider what you do dangerous, you probally shouldn't be doing it. Every decision should have a very solid "what-if" consideration behind it, worse-casing every foreseeable eventuality, and the decision based on the safest course of action. Zero-tolerance and a HUGE margin of safety, and if you do make a mistake, something we all do, you should have plenty of room to correct it safely. I look back at the decisions I was making when I asked myself the same question...and I shudder and thank my lucky stars I didn't hurt myself or anyone else.

[Autorotate]

Its interesting reading all these comments from pilots out there. From my side I know exactly how dangerous this industry is. Travelling around the world meeting operators, pilots, mechanics and owners in all corners gives you a lot of insight into how different people and the way they run their businesses can be, as well as giving you the chance to make some great friends. Because of this the number of funerals I have attended over the last couple of years has increased substantially.

If pilot error is involved, in my opinion, its easier to accept and understand, but when its an "unexplained mechanical failure" then it starts to grate on me because they have no control over the cause, only some minimal control, if at all, over the outcome, and its usually bad. A classic example of this is a long time friend who was killed a couple of years ago here in Kiwiland. Those down this part of the world would have known Simon Green. He took me for one of my first helicopter rides in a 500C when flying out of Taihape, NZ. He was flying along in his UH1H for Wanganui Aero Work when something let go, the machine rolled inverted, after having the blade come through the cabin, and the rest was history. That was the end of a great man, as well as his crewmates, and it was because of a "mechanical failure". Simon did thorough preflights every time he flew the machine so if something looked wrong he would have picked it up. Its accidents like this that hurt more than anything.

I know a lot of you have the advantage of flying for the same operator every day, or at least operators you know and trust their operations to provide you with healthy machinery. How about swapping for my job for a period. Over the years I have become more cautious on who I fly with and in what. The disadvantage of my job is I dont know the engineers for the company I go and visit, I dont know the attitude of the pilot I am flying with, I dont know the maint history of the helo I am going to fly in, and its all based on trust. Every time we take off my fate is in someone elses hands, period. Thats why I am now very selective of where I go and what I fly in. Call it self preservation.

I have only really had a couple of majors when it comes to crossing to the other side. First was in the back of an F-16 doing a photo shoot over the Florida Keys. Short version, we had a midair, one F-16 crashed into the ocean and we limped home. Second one would have been 100% fatal. Was on the fjords of Norway in an AS350 shooting some air to air shots of the Kmax doing a power line job near Alesund.

We went out and hovered over a fjord while Daniel flew around us in the Kmax. We were at 900ft and then Daniel screamed at our pilot to descend. Everyone was puzzled. Found out when we landed that we had been hovering right under a wire across a fjord and were only about six feet below it. We had been slowly increasing in height to get better pics so if Daniel had not said anything five of us would not be here today, thats a forgone conclusion.

Anyway just my two cents worth. This industry is dangerous, everyone just has to manage the risks, therefore start practicising risk management with every flight you do.

Autorotate.

[kates]

Me have been thinking for a while.

Assume that you would have to carry out an operation meaning that you would use an aircarft to fly a person from A to B.

Given an identical route with exactly the same conditions (wx, technical maint., pilot exper.), - which type of operation would give the highest risk exposure of say a R22 helicopter or a Cessna 172 fixed-wing.

Bear in mind that the we shall assume that the pilots also have been trained in exactly the same conditions (except for fixed-wing vs. rotary) and they have reach the same level of experience (in terms of hours, maturity, academic background, risk management skills etc.)

I am not after each categories absolute risk exposure, only the relative one among these two categories.

Would the operation from A to B be more exposed to risk operating it with an R22 (or say single engine piston helicopter) than with a SEP fixed-wing?

What I am really curious to find out is if helicopter flying is inherently dangerous (due to the helicopter's instability or whatever reason) or if it is the operations which helicopters are involved in wich introduces the extra element of risks into rotary flying.

Personally I would feel better if the answer would be that it is the operations wich introduces the extra elements of risk as this would give me a feeling of tthat it is possible to controll my "fate" to a higher level.

Anyone got an idea?

[Aesir]

"Assume that you would have to carry out an operation meaning that you would use an aircarft to fly a person from A to B.

Given an identical route with exactly the same conditions (wx, technical maint., pilot exper.), - which type of operation would give the highest risk exposure of say a R22 helicopter or a Cessna 172 fixed-wing. "

I would take the R-22!

If the weather turns ****ty, you can land anywhere.
If you get inflight fire, you can be on the ground in seconds.
If you have engine failure, you only need space big enough for the rotor to autorotate and land.

I personally would feel much safer in the helicopter if doing a A to B transport.

[Rich Lee]

Flying in the high mountains of Chile and Argentina, around Aconcagua, in a single engine helicopter, the thought of danger was a constant companion.

Flying over the dense jungles of Borneo, in a single engine helicopter, the thought of danger was a constant companion.

Flying across oceans, beyond sight of land, in a single engine helicopter, the thought of danger was a constant companion.

Hovering 150 feet over a seismic load, in a single engine helicopter, the thought of danger is a constant companion.

Come to think of it, everywhere I seem to go, and everything I seem to do, in a single engine helicopter, the thought of danger remains a constant companion.

[Hughesy]

Everytime i'm flying, I say to myself " Where is the wind coming from? And where would I go if the engine stopped?"
I think it helps to overcome complacency, and gives me options if and when it ever happens.
It's somthing I say to my students EVERYTIME I fly with them. And pretty soon I get an instant response from them each time.
" The Wind is from there, and I would go there."
Does anyone else have any tricks like that they teach to students? Or say to themselves?
Cheers
Hughesy

[rotornut]

Back in '82 I started training for my CPL. With only a few hours and before I soloed I was invited to go for a ride in a 206 as a passenger in the back seat. Just after liftoff the engine flamed out and we crashed. Fortunately, no one was hurt but the bathtub and skids were damaged. So in answer to your question, yes, I always think about the danger involved every time I get in a helicopter!

[Gaseous]

I think about the risks of my profession. The suicides, alcoholism, drug abuse, crippling spinal injuries, depression, death before retirement age due to cardiovascular disease which are all statistically high for ..... dentists.

Helicopter pilots are not the only profession to deal with danger at work. Its just a different kind of danger. Of the two professions I would rate the professional pilots that I know as the happier bunch of people.

[B Sousa]

Dangerous?? Never considered that. I knew there was some reason I should have graduated from Kollege. Other than having the Sh1t scared out of me I guess I have been pretty lucky, but Ive only been flying 34 years.

[kissmysquirrel]

Just before I fly I think of the dangers every day. Or I could think about my other job which rates as one of the most dangerous too. Sea-going engineer!. Risk of crankcase explosions, collisions, (I was on a ship in the UAE two years ago which collided with another off Fujairah. Our ship was a 299,000 dwt tanker and the other? a 475,000 dwt fully loaded tanker. ) No explosion that time luckily but there are risks in every profession. You could slip on a dropped burger in maccy d's and break your neck.
Would you be having as much fun at work though?:D

[Helipolarbear]

B Sousa -- 34 Years.....Is That All????
Young Buck!:} ;)

[John Eacott]

HPB,

I'm with you: although the 40th anniversary is fast approaching :rolleyes:

As to the question in the title: not at the time, but occasionally after a flight. There was even a time when we questioned the sensibility of flying 24hrs a day in 100 foot vis off Ark, for about a week. Did wonders (not) for the boss's brownie points, but I wouldn't have given much chance to finding anyone who ditched :sad: And I was only a kid at the time ;)

Life's too short to worry: you're a long time dead :ok:

[BlenderPilot]

Any new thoughts on this subject?

The Danger Involved

Has any of you ever thought of quitting flying helicopters because of the higher danger involved in respect to say airplanes or a regular land job?

Please admit it, flying helicopters, doing other than say, VIP, ENG, etc. is more dangerous than average jobs.

In 1999 I left helicopters to go fly Beechjets for a fractional program, there I realized that the difference in safety is enormous, in the 1 year I was there, I was never in a situation where I was anything more than having fun, or plain bored while flying, I never felt there was much I could do, or not do, that could seriously endanger myself, on the other side . . .

In helicopters over the past few years I've had a couple of close calls, even being extra careful and thinking eveything twice, there are just some things that are out of your control.

One thing I will never forget is an accident few years back where a Bell 412 was brought down by fireworks from a fair that was below, 8 people died and the pilot was as carefull as there are, I have more examples but what's the use, you know already.

Anybody who's flown helicopters for a while is missing a friend or two today, this gets me thinking sometimes, after all I've never met an airline pilot or corporate pilot who feels this way.

Please share your thoughts/experiences/opinions.

[thecontroller]

mmm...

everyday of the week, in an r22, i do autos, 180s, hover autos, vortex ring, throttle chops, flying over water at night, diving towards the ground with the horn blaring and the student gripping the controls during an auto, etc

do i think about the dangers? when driving home, sometimes yes. i think "sh*t, some of that could have gone really wrong"

but then i put it out of my mind, much like when i get on a motorycycle.

i think if i constantly thought about the dangers i wouldnt do the job.

i just thank lycoming/frank for making such a reliable aircraft.

[corncrasher]

there are a lot of jobs more dangerous than this and they are not near as fun. Some of them I have done. My home town was small and it was a logging town. I don't know how long it would take for me to try to count the number of people that have been killed or seriously injured from logging accidents just in my home town.

[qwagga1]

I think most for most of us this thought must have past through our minds at some stage or the other. "What am I doing here?" :{ I think the only reason I find my self getting back into the aircraft on many occasions is due to the fact that most helicopter pilots like myself, love helicopter flying.:ok:

However been doing this for over 15 years and I still hope that the day I lose my "fear" of flying, I would be able to stop.
But at this stage with a healthy respect and love for helicopter flying it does not really matter wheather I am operating off-shore in a twin or giving instuction in a R22 at the end of the day I love and respect them all(Helicopters).:) :)

[KikoLobo]

A good advice might be to quit your job, come fly for me and you will only be doing VIP transportation in a nice clean 407...

I know I know...

[996]

Only 2 things motivate people - pleasure and fear. Flying helicopters you get both all the time. The fear makes you pay attention and hopefully motivates you into gaining the most you can from knowledge and experience; in a fruitless effort to dispel fear. The pleasure, well without that why would you go through the fear? After 30 odd years of it I cannot think of any point in time where there was not at least some degree of fear. Keeps you sharp! Besides, its more worrisome coming home late from the pub :-))

[SASless]

How many of us are just plain ol' adrenaline addicts?

[Helinut]

As I look at it, it is our job to look at the danger/risk all the time. Once you get over the skill and knwoedge bits of what we do, we are (or should be) active risk managers. If not, we are not doing our bosses/pax/co-crew the service that we should.

Anyone who thinks what we do is anything but inherently hazardous needs to take a first principles look at the physics of helicopters and look at the accident stats. In a work arena there are fewer more hazardous jobs.

However, as long as the risks are balanced by benefits that work for us, we will continue to fly helicopters.

[chopperchav]

Spare a thought for us private pilots. I am sometimes lucky if I can get to fly once a month and consequently can feel very uncomfortable at the controls knowing in the back of my mind how rusty I am. For example took wife and some friends on London sightseeing trip yesterday in strong winds and average vis and GPS(far too reliant on naturally) went on blink while departing airfield. Needless to say stress levels were higher than normal and I was glad to get it back on ground in one piece.

One motivation for me in considering flying commercially is that I love flying but don't want to kill myself doing it like the Steve Hislops of the world etc. whose lack of experience or rustiness is ultimately their undoing. Most accident stats I read seem to be private pilots flying in to the side of a hill in bad weather etc.

[thecontroller]

very true, i was always sh*tting myself when i took friends up as a PPL. its only now as a 600+ hr instructor i feel comfortable and completely in control flying. although instructing is mostly being flown around while you talk and occasionally take control. when i do have to fly commercially the stress levels are much higher than when i am instructing.

[fulldownauto]

"i feel comfortable and completely in control flying."
I've studied not only NTSB reports, but the stories behind them, and many of the non-fatal incidents and accidents that occur during flight training.
I find it curious that you feel more comfortable with students than when doing business flying? When you're the only one on the controls, you don't have to worry about the multitude of stupid things that the student can do in an attempt on your life or the well-being of the helicopter. Just when you think you've seen it all, and most instructors think that thought too early, a student will come along and show you that you haven't. Hopefully it won't be in the form of a brisk forward cyclic input while teaching in the R22. . .
As an instructor, I don't think enough pilots worry about the dangers involved. I know the dangers, I've seen the accidents, known the people who were killed and I've seen the results. I've been flying for about 5 years now, and in that time, 5 helicopters I've flown were later involved in accidents, one of them fatal. Before I fly each day, I remind myself that I am the only thing standing between a normal flight and a catastrophe. I try very hard not to get comfortable flying with students, even the ones I've been flying with for a long time. Never relax, guard the controls, study hard, and instruct harder.
And the requirements and pressures for instructors do not occur only on that day's flights:
Being responsible for another pilots training can have long lasting consequences that may be negative or positive. For example, on the positive side, and instructor may instill a healthy respect for power lines and teach the student to be extremely vigilant. Conversely, they might show little a care for power lines. Years later when the once student pilot impacts power lines because he wasn't looking for them, whom might that be traced back to?
So we give the best training possible, with all of our effort, because the pilot we are training might one day depend on it.
But with regards to actual flying activities, I believe when one stops worrying about the risks, the odds of an accident are greatly increased. However there are some things, especially when flying with students, that we just can't control.
I agree with the previous posts about personal risk. For me, I've always known that my love for flight will be eclipsed by what is even more valuable for me in life. And at that point I will cease flying. It is great to see that many on the forums are still so wonderfully enthusiastic about flight, especially the younger generation, of which I am still a member of. Once again it comes down to personal values. Flying is awesome, but for me, to put it bluntly, the increased risk of death will, at some point, no longer be worth the reward. Enjoy it while it lasts!

[thecontroller]

what i meant was that i find it less stressful because i dont have to do the flying, (flying the r22 is tiring - anyone will tell you that) i only have to come on the controls when i'm needed. with commercial students i hardly touch the controls at all, except to stop them overspeeding during an auto.

with brand new students its different, i am on the controls the whole time, as they havent a clue what they're doing until around 10-15 hours

i am more concerned about the aircraft failing than the student doing something stupid. when i look at the r22 after a flight i'm always suprised that an engine, a glass bubble, and a couple of pieces of metal going around can keep us in the air and in control

[KikoLobo]

So i was on a XCountry, from Monterrey Mexico, to San Antonio Texas, its a 240 NM XCountry, i am a low time, Private Pilot, and i was flying with my wife and kid.

First i was concerned with fuel, cause i had to make a direct flight to KSAT, cause i had to go thru customs. My planning estimated 50 minutes of fuel remaining when arriving, but i encountered a bid of stronger head winds in a leg, so i started to worring and started doing more fuel economy settings and decisions and more precise flying.....

Uhh Night Fall, ofcourse, i am in the middle of no where and night might fall on me without city lights... So... Attitude Indicator set. Altimeter set, frictions a bit on. And dimed all lights in the GPS screens to get acostumed to night or sun set. I was planning on being in town by that time, but now i was 50 minutes away from the city lights.

Now fuel decision point came, and i started my mini check list.
Night start felling.... Fuel Check.. We are good.. Wow. We are great 1:45 minutes remaining and only 50 more monutes to go!".
Xponder Reply, they are getting me now.
Com Check "Houston center, this is XB-SLF. Com Check. XB-SLF Loud and clear". So we are good.
All instruments - Green.
Landing Lights - Tested and good.

Weather, well its starting to look weird.
"Flight Watch, this is XB-SLF, i am South of KSAT 76 NM out, i see some cloud cover, do you have any outlooks or forecasts for an hour from now at KSAT?"
"XB-SLF, this is flight watch, we have scattered clouds at 4000, 18 Knot G 20's winds from the east, and visibility is starting to deteriorate, one hour from now, the scattered clouds will be at 2,500 and the visibility would be aprox 4 miles. I have some IFR forecasted in two hours"... Ohh Ohh. That's not what the forecast looked when i took off. It said Clear of Clouds > 10 NM of visibility.


Great now i will be flying at night, with low clouds, no moon or stars, and no city lights... Darn It....

Ok, No problem, i have a couple of Airports near and all will be good. If worst gets to worst... Screw Customs, i'l talk with them in jail but i will be alive in the end :)

So.. To make a long story short, i finaly got to KSAT with just enough light to see the city lights in the horizon and make a picture of how they looked for orientation and saw the airport, went to land, made my destination and thought to my self :

- ITS GREAT TO BE HERE IN ONE PIECE!, I have to start training for instruments!. I have to make darn sure weather is good. I have to make customs in the port of entry instead of at a further away airport, so i will have lots of options. I Have to travel earlier in the sun light, when going Xcountry in a helicopter, or at least if i am not instrument rated.

So in the end.. Everytime i go flying i get the butterflies in my stomach. I see my airplane fellow pilots fly without even thinking, they are more relaxed.... But i can't let that feeling go... When i first started flying solo i thought that this might go away when i got a couple of hours... But now i am 160 hours and they get worst :)... So i think that this can be an advantage and a disadvantage. In one end i feel completely capable of handling bad situations... But i would rather never be in one. So i keep training and training and the butterflies are still there.

I just wanted to share my experience.


PS: Sorry for the spelling.

[papa68]

G'day all,

This is an interesting thread and the comments made thus far all have some relevance in regards to my own personal experiences.

I'm quite sure that in the process of becoming a "competent" helicopter operator (borne out of good training, supervision and experience), we have all had our scarier moments. Let's be honest - when we first go solo or get our private licences, it's more a test of nerve than anything else. It's only looking back after a few years of flying consolidation that we fully comprehend how potentially incompetent we were.

I know exactly how chopperchav must have been feeling on his monthly trip - reminds me of the old adage, "better to be on the ground wishing you were up there than in the air wishing you were on the ground". Even now, if I haven't done much flying recently, I am acutely aware of my lack of recency and conduct myself accordingly.

My thoughts as to the dangers involved have indeed changed over the years. My own personal experiences, and the experiences of those around me have shaped and changed my approach to flying and my outlook to the risks involved.

I too was involved with the accident that What Ho Squiffy mentioned previously :( and it changed my attitude towards flying in a very positive way but the cost incurred was enormous. I saw first hand just how dangerous flying helicopters can be but I also learned how important my role was in the prevention of an accident as a very junior boggy pilot.

Having said all that, the element of danger that is inherently present in flying helicopters is without a doubt part of the attraction of the job. It's not that I am an adrenaline junkie or have a death wish but rather that it is the possiblity that something could go a bit awry that keeps me on my toes. If I wanted a career that involved absolutely no possiblity of danger, I would have stuck with my previous occupation.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made about managing risk and the idea of giving the game away if / when the risks are perceived to outweigh the benefits. This was a big consideration in my leaving the military to work offshore. As one matures, one generally becomes more risk averse and I had decided that I had done all I wanted to in the ADF and it was time to do something a little less risky. I sleep far better as a result and enjoy my flying as much as ever.

Safe flying everyone,

Papa68:D

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

quiting the job because of the danger involved? Never thought about that.
Looking through the accident reports - more than 90 % of the accidents are due to pilot error.
Parts breaking - engines quitting - possible, but very very seldom - and mosty you still have a good chance to walk away - even if the A/C might be broken.
I had much more close misses on the way to or from the airport, thousands of hardly trained drivers with bad eyes, severe colds, overaged and so on underway, trying to kill me in my car....
In a helicopter it is my reponsibility to fly within the limits. And when I have to go beyond, its my decision, wheather its worth while - or not - knowing about the risks.
I guess, the more experiance you get and the older you get anyway, the smaler the dangerproblem becomes.
You have either already the experiance to avoid situations, which might kill you, or you have a way to get out unharmed - or you are old enough to say, no need for me to go in such a situation - while the young pilot, eager to see it all - not knowing about all the trapdoors - stumbels in.

Greetings
"Flying Bull"

[KikoLobo]

Its a good point you made Mr. Flying bull.

One thing i did not put in my earlier post is that i had never thought about quiting, because i really really love Helicopters. All i think is that i should be very carefull.