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Consol
7th Jan 2016, 00:11
Ryanair pilot refused to fly undocumented cash (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ryanair-pilot-refused-to-fly-undocumented-cash-1.2487312)

What would you have done?

lomapaseo
7th Jan 2016, 03:31
"undocumented" ?

Does that mean that it wasn't traceable?

If so they probably couldn't do much about a bit missing do the special handling

dusk2dawn
7th Jan 2016, 04:58
"However counsel for Ryanair Ross Aylward told the tribunal the bags represented a routine delivery of cash from Ryanair bases across its network."

Interesting.... maybe even very interesting...?

fox niner
7th Jan 2016, 05:21
If you want to keep money transfer really, really secret, use the hawala banking system:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala

Aluminium shuffler
7th Jan 2016, 05:25
There was never accompanying documentation given to the pilots. The cabin crew would bring the full bag from the crew room, and maybe they had documents, but I never saw any, and I never saw a sign over of responsibility to the receiving ground crew in Dublin either. There was also no NOTOC covering the weekly transfer of flight documents to DUB, although it was clear what was in the bag. Then again, this is the airline that positions crew on days off with no tickets...

Offchocks
7th Jan 2016, 06:26
I'm guessing it was a large sum and so if it is above 10,000 or whatever the declaration limits are, who does it belong to and does it need to be declared to customs on arrival in Dublin?

Rwy in Sight
7th Jan 2016, 06:37
I'm guessing it was a large sum and so if it is above 10,000 or whatever the declaration limits are, who does it belong to and does it need to be declared to customs on arrival in Dublin?

If the cash was delivered past customs...

Laarbruch72
7th Jan 2016, 07:47
Mr Aylward said carrying the money to Dublin or Stansted was standard company practice, the bags did carry documentation he said, and he told the tribunal Mr Christensen had carried such bags in the past

Coupled with what Aluminium Shuffler has said, it seems like this was a very routine thing for Ryanair, and as with everything in airlines that would suggest that there should be a process written describing the correct procedure. Maybe something in the OM-A. One of these parties is telling fibs.

Landflap
7th Jan 2016, 10:26
Couldn't make this stuff up, eh ? And why would a hugely successful company want to shift money around, in bags, in cash ? Hollywood is going to love these ingredients. Could I play the film role of an ageing Ryanair pilot, on his last flight, taking the REALLY big bag straight from plane to my Lexus in the car-park? Pleeeze, I have the looks and acting ability !

aerobat
7th Jan 2016, 11:31
The cash is from on board sales. At the end of the day the base supervisor bags all the cash up from the based aircraft and the next day it is sent to DUB or STN to be counted and banked.

Capot
7th Jan 2016, 11:52
It would be astonishing if the money from each aircraft were not counted and documented before being bagged; the sales receipts would have to reflect to difference in stocks on board, which could and probably would be audited. Otherwise cabin staff, and/or base staff, would be wide open to accusations of theft, either of goods or of cash, or both. It's basic accounting, and whatever one might think of Ryanair, I don't believe a word of the "undocumented" story..

RAT 5
7th Jan 2016, 11:54
No-one has mentioned if there is a paper trail of delivery/handover etc. Surely each person would want a back-side covering signature from the recipient at each stage. People seems to suggest that oodles of dosh are just floating around the network without any trace of time or place. Can this be true?
It would seem that, if this package was just dumped in the cockpit, who's to say later it ever was. Nice pay rise if you can get it. Word against word. Was there a security clearance with the package. If there was no paper-work, alleged' and customs boarded, who's is the cash? Max 10,000 across borders and UK - Eire is across borders. Why is it not banked locally and then an internet inter-bank transfer made? Is that not the modern way to do this? Are they really telling us the there are 69 packets of dosh travelling unidentified every day into DUB. How archaic!
But, if the captain refused this for safety reasons, and he was then effectively fined 6 months Capt-F/O pay that is a huge penalty for a trivial offence. Is this the true face of a new cuddly RYR?

dmcna
7th Jan 2016, 12:17
The real question is not if it was supplied with accompanying documents or not but that what really happened is that you were basically shown a bag of money with a couple of A4 sheets in it and it was thrown on the floor behind you in the cockpit. No Gen Dec, no NOTOC or other supporting documentation. Or in other cases the bag had already been sealed and although you could be 99% sure what it was, it could have had anything inside. No mention of these money bags in any Ryanair Operating Manual, no procedures written anywhere

Dufo
7th Jan 2016, 12:25
It is company material, why such fuss? Gen dec? notoc? What is next, calling police to check if there are counterfeit banknotes included?
Do Ryanair captains also personally check all duty free items, lavatory paper and crew luggage?


Total overreaction in my opinion.

fireflybob
7th Jan 2016, 13:11
If my memory serves me correctly these bags were put in the hold until (you've guessed it!) a few years ago after a flight they were mysteriously missing when the hold was opened never to be seen again.

Hence the requirement for them to travel on the flight deck.

Airbubba
7th Jan 2016, 14:06
No Gen Dec, no NOTOC or other supporting documentation. Or in other cases the bag had already been sealed and although you could be 99% sure what it was, it could have had anything inside.

I've sure had those thoughts when on rare occasion being asked to carry a colleague's flight kit on an international sector. And, I've had maintenance put a large sealed manila envelope in the cockpit to transfer documents to the next station. I was just hoping it didn't have OJ's knife in it.

I offloaded a mystery bag placed with the crew luggage just before departure a few years ago. It didn't have a crew tag, looked like pax luggage and the name didn't match anyone onboard. Turns out it belonged to a deadheading crewmember, the name was that of his wife's sister and he was quite indignant that I didn't figure it all out in the post-911 security environment. After he pitched a fit, I was sorely tempted to take the bag and offload him. ;)

Back during the Cold War I used to see Russian couriers on the LGA-DCA sector of the Air Shuttle. They would book two seats in first class on the 727. The courier would sit in one and a large white canvas diplomatic duffel would be strapped in the next seat. I'm sure there was a good paper trail on that one.

ExDubai
7th Jan 2016, 14:43
If my memory serves me correctly these bags were put in the hold until (you've guessed it!) a few years ago after a flight they were mysteriously missing when the hold was opened never to be seen again.

We are living in a bad bad world :{

Basil
7th Jan 2016, 16:16
I'm lucky to have never worked for a company which would dismiss (constructively or otherwise) a captain for refusing to carry undocumented freight.

jack11111
7th Jan 2016, 18:52
Maybe cash is moved in this manner to avoid exchange-rate problems.

peekay4
7th Jan 2016, 19:07
Why is it not banked locally and then an internet inter-bank transfer made? Is that not the modern way to do this?
More & more airlines these days only accept credit cards for onboard sales. Everything gets swiped through the card machine and there's no need for crews to handle/transfer any cash. Problem solved.

Capot
7th Jan 2016, 19:31
Why is it not banked locally ........Exhorbitant bank charges, probably. Especially if a mix of currencies is involved.

popstar
8th Jan 2016, 01:43
Is no one concerned about unsecured bags of cash lying about in a plane , given the attention paid to secure stowage for other items ?

dc9-32
8th Jan 2016, 06:05
Maybe cash is moved in this manner to avoid exchange-rate problems.


Maybe the tax man could answer than one :sad:

wanabee777
8th Jan 2016, 06:12
Unless it's just petty cash, you would think Ryanair would want an armed courier escorting the bag.

172driver
8th Jan 2016, 06:17
Especially if a mix of currencies is involved.

In my experience Ryanair only accept Euro and Sterling cash on board.

sp3ctre
8th Jan 2016, 07:18
Is that a Canada thing? I've been on a lot of airlines and never seen one that only accepts cards? I wish they would, as people messing about with change makes the whole transaction very slow... just can't say I've seen it.

vctenderness
8th Jan 2016, 08:12
British Airways has (had) a 'diplomatic locker' on every aircraft. The Senior cabin crew member had a personal padlock issued. They were responsible for securing it.

Bags of cash, diamonds, and other high value or sensitive documents were handed over to them and they were securely locked in the dip locker.

On arrival the bags were collected by a security operative who signed for them and gave the crew member a copy. Simples!!

DirtyProp
8th Jan 2016, 08:28
Ryanair pilot refused to fly undocumented cash (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ryanair-pilot-refused-to-fly-undocumented-cash-1.2487312)

What would you have done?
Not an airline pilot, but I would have done the same - if the cash had no paperwork at all.
This is not food, equipment or such. It's cash.
The Captain said there were no papers, Ryanair said not true, there were.
Someone's lying...

Aluminium shuffler
8th Jan 2016, 08:38
There was no security concern from a safety point because the money was all from the previous day's onboard sales, counted up in the crew room, which are all airside in RYR, and recorded before being bagged up, so the bags and their contents never crosses the airside/ground side cordons. It was standard procedure to have one of these bags every day from every base on a designated DUB or STN flt. The bag was stored in a reasonably secure manner. My only concern is that I never saw the pursers get a receipt from the office staff who came tot he aircraft to collect it, but perhaps that merely occurred out of my sight. I never saw a NOTOC, and I honestly don't remember an OM-A reference, but there may have been one. But it was certainly a long standing daily procedure for every base (except STN and DUB, obviously).

DirtyProp
8th Jan 2016, 09:24
Guys, this is not a security issue.
It is a LEGAL issue, and according to where you go, it can be a big one.
If you go to Italy with bags of undocumented cash and they find them, you'll most likely find yourself in hot water.
For the Italian gov, undocumented cash in good quantities = tax evasion.
Cover your butt and be careful with cash, esp. if there's no paper trail.

PDR1
8th Jan 2016, 12:23
I think in many european and US jurisdictions it's probably also driving the proverbial coach and horses through a person's obligations under the anti-money-laundering regulations. The fact that it's a common practice and that the aircrew in question were not AWARE that it's breaking rules would be no defence - they would still be liable for prosecution.

But also - taking undocumented, uninspectable sealed bags onto an aeroplane just because someone else claims it's cash doesn't sound overly clever to me.

YMMV,

PDR

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Jan 2016, 13:14
But also - taking undocumented, uninspectable sealed bags onto an aeroplane just because someone else claims it's cash doesn't sound overly clever to me.
Quite. What, exactly, would one's defence be if the bag contained some heroin and one didn't have any arse-covering paperwork?

peekay4
8th Jan 2016, 15:23
Is that a Canada thing? I've been on a lot of airlines and never seen one that only accepts cards?
North American thing perhaps.

Air Canada, United, American Airlines, Delta, Southwest, etc., only accept credit & debit cards for onboard purchases. United might still accept cash on a few international routes.

From 2009: Airlines want your money, but not your cash - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34331231/ns/travel-travel_tips/t/airlines-want-your-money-not-your-cash/)

PDR1
8th Jan 2016, 15:32
<Quite. What, exactly, would one's defence be if the bag contained some heroin and one didn't have any arse-covering paperwork?>

Or worse - Donald Trump on a UK-bound flight...

PDR

172_driver
8th Jan 2016, 16:48
In my experience Ryanair only accept Euro and Sterling cash on board.

If it wasn't coz I like your handle, I'd call you something...... ;)
If you have flown outside UK/Ireland you'd know they accept local currencies. What they put it the red bags... I don't know. They say money. I am with Aluminum Shuffler, never seen any accompanying paper work. While aviation is a lot about trust in others, I think it's within every captain's right to refuse those bags. The red bag system is probably the cheapest solution to ship the money, hence its use.

Vinnie Boombatz
8th Jan 2016, 20:37
Ryanair pilot refused to fly 'undocumented cash' (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ryanair-pilot-refused-to-fly-undocumented-cash-1.2487312)

"counsel for Ryanair Ross Aylward . . . said Mr Christensen had 'failed as a captain to come up with a solution in 20 minutes' that the plane was waiting to leave."

flyingtincan
9th Jan 2016, 07:42
According to on here the day's takings are counted and bagged up, airside, and then transpoted back to STN or DUB. Assuming that is correct then -

What laws are being broken if the cash never entered or departed the foreign country?

What difference is there to a DUB or STN based aircraft keeping its takings on-board and taking them back with it?

framer
9th Jan 2016, 08:22
If someone I don't know turns up on the flight deck with a package ( happens now and then) I ask a few questions and if they can't tell me too much about it I open it up with my pen. Nobody has ever complained.i certainly wouldn't carry anything in the flight deck with no paperwork without opening it up.

DirtyProp
9th Jan 2016, 09:19
According to on here the day's takings are counted and bagged up, airside, and then transpoted back to STN or DUB. Assuming that is correct then -

What laws are being broken if the cash never entered or departed the foreign country?
It depends on the local tax code.
Some countries (Italy, for instance) have an extremely convoluted, complicated tax code which discourages the use and carrying of large amounts of cash.
It doesn't matter if you are inside the country or leaving it, there is a limit to it.
And if it's company's money, you better have something to prove it. If it's legal (and I'm sure it is), the company should have no problems to provide you with relative paperwork, right?

What difference is there to a DUB or STN based aircraft keeping its takings on-board and taking them back with it?No difference, but unless the amount is quite small, why not going to a local bank branch and deposit the cash in the company's account then?
Maybe all cash deposits have to be made from company's HQ? Doesn't make much sense to me - small amounts excluded, of course - but since I don't work for an airline I can be wrong.

ironbutt57
9th Jan 2016, 11:21
Strange mob there, my previous outfit would have most likely been unhappy if it had been accepted without documentation...who's to know whats in that bag..

RAT 5
9th Jan 2016, 11:57
The bit I don't understand is no-one has mentioned a simple 'chain of custody' paper trail. If there is then there is an established official procedure. If there is not it is unofficial and incompetent. How can any organisation dream up a system that has 69 bags of unknown amounts cash travelling on uncertified a/c, at unorganised times, being couriered during varies stages by unknown undocumented people? If that is the case it is a wonderful demonstration of 'gash'. Just consider, 69 x 365 bags of cash = €XYZ squllions, no worries, but you can't charge your phone at work.
You couldn't make it up.

flyingtincan
9th Jan 2016, 12:50
Dirty prop said
"It depends on the local tax code."

I said "airside".
Does it not depend on air law article 24.

gcal
9th Jan 2016, 12:56
We used to carry large sums of cash to pay for such things as fuel/servicing/catering in places that wouldn't agree or couldn't be party to the normal airline credit arrangements.
It was common also for certain airlines to have to pay in cash when they visited the UK.
A captain once, and just for a moment, left the briefcase containing the money out of his grasp in a hotel lobby.
I needn't tell you what happened!

DirtyProp
9th Jan 2016, 13:26
Dirty prop said
"It depends on the local tax code."

I said "airside".
Does it not depend on air law article 24.
In theory, yes.
In practice I have zero, and I mean ZERO trust in my government and I behave accordingly.
The biggest, nastiest, most cunning thieves are not on the streets. They are in the Parliament houses. And many times they cannot be avoided.

Heathrow Harry
10th Jan 2016, 11:11
"A captain once, and just for a moment, left the briefcase containing the money out of his grasp in a hotel lobby.
I needn't tell you what happened!"

let me guess- the First Officer excused her/himself saying they had to go to the washroom and they cut a deal with bellhop to lift the bag on a 50-50 basis??
:p:p

RAT 5
10th Jan 2016, 11:18
We used to carry large sums of cash to pay for such things as fuel/servicing/catering in places that wouldn't agree or couldn't be party to the normal airline credit arrangements.

Been there, done that. Usually when the financial stability of the airline was suspect and credit was removed. There was a definite chain of custody paper trail and very strict auditing back at base.

Starbear
10th Jan 2016, 11:49
We used to carry large sums of cash to pay for such things as fuel/servicing/catering in places that wouldn't agree or couldn't be party to the normal airline credit arrangements.
It was common also for certain airlines to have to pay in cash when they visited the UK.
A captain once, and just for a moment, left the briefcase containing the money out of his grasp in a hotel lobby.
I needn't tell you what happened!

Mmmm. TMAC Milan(?) Skipper BY????

Skyjob
14th Jan 2016, 08:48
The bit I don't understand is no-one has mentioned a simple 'chain of custody' paper trail. ... How can any organisation dream up a system that has 69 bags of unknown amounts cash travelling on uncertified a/c, at unorganized times, being couriered during varies stages by unknown undocumented people?

Maybe the method of an electronic paper trial needs to be reassessed in this subject. The crew taking such bags, usually from a crew room themselves not being handed to them, have been notified of its contents prior to bags being sealed, an email and followup phone call to destination confirming the bags' presence on board to be collected, aircraft registration and flight number defined, by definition thus knowing who is on board and thus responsible for them. If no person collects the bags upon arrival, they are returned, the crew being responsible for them until then.