How valuable is cheap hour building?

[tonyblair]

I'm looking at starting training this autumn and have been searching here for the options. There's certainly a wealth of data if you use the search function. What I'm not sure about is the validity of the do-it-yourself modular approach. A couple of friends of my father who are pilots have given me conflicting advice; both seem logical to me.

On the one hand, I'm told to save money, use the modular route and build my hours as cheaply as possible cause at the end of the day an airline will be assessing me & my performance in training (e.g. 1st time passes etc.) & not how I got my licence.

On the other, I'm told either go integrated, or do a structured modular course, because its easy to waste the 150 hours "drilling holes in the sky" (I loved that phrase!).

The latter advice seems logical. I've seem some ads for hours building (especially in the States) that emphasise how you can spend hours & hours doing long solo cross-countries. Probably cheap, but I have not learnt at the same rate on the little solo flying I've done. It's important, and certainly has given me great confidence, but I think 100 hours of it will be a waste of time. Sort of negates the modular route though.

What do you think?

[Send Clowns]

Yes, there is a certain amount of "drilling holes in the sky", and it is a great shame in some cases that JARs are so inflexible. However a modular course will generally work out around £10,000 cheaper than an integrated course if you build hours in the US. That money can be very useful either in extra training if you feel you need it before your CPL skills test or IRT, for example, or perhaps more importantly for a JOC (Jet Orientation Course) or LOFT course (Line-Orientated Flight training). These are often useful in gaining employment after graduation.

And you can have great fun over there - the flying culture is completely different, and at the school where I built hours (shan't mention the name, or people will slate it and the thread will be closed, but I had fun) the social life was great - almost all European students, away from home and enjoying themselves.

[phil_pot]

I prefer the modular route ,the problem I see with the intergrated courses is that it all seems to be done in a bit of a rush ,you sit in your interview and youve followed a set pattern of training and probably come in with near minimum hours,hardly inspired flying ,I know quite a few pilots who finish their courses and couldnt find jobs and ended up "broadening their horizions"instructing or whatever ,remember everyone who sits in that interview room can fly and have an atpl/ir frozen or otherwise what makes you different?
If you go modular it may take longer and possibly cost more ,however in the current climate alot of schools over here are offering hour building at state side prices with no money up front,you can do some really interesting flying trips to France ,Spain whatever, its up to you wether you just drill holes in the sky or really fly with a purpose ,you dont need an instructor next to you to practice PFLs or flapless approaches,above all which ever route you take enjoy it ,its flying after all the more you enjoy it the quicker you learn, however if your not really a self motivated person then I would go intergrated because it can get really hard to keep driving forward if you are setting the pace of your learning!
Good Luck.

[lonerider]

phil_pot,

Could you please point me in the direction of these cheap flying schools offering state side prices.

Many thanks

LR

[JT8]

Get yourself a copy of the CPL sylabus. Use the hour building phase as preparation for the CPL. Force yourself to brush up on your weaknesses. It's the ideal opportunity to make yourself a better pilot and pass your CPL within minimum hours.

You could also take an instructor (ideally one who also knows the JAA CPL sylabus) with you every 8-10 hours and treat that flight as a CPL mock test. When you do the CPL module itself it shouldn't be much more than a refresher of what you know.

If you have the right objectives and plan of attack, I think the hour building phase is far from a waste of time. If self motivaton is a problem, I would advise an Integrated course.

cheers, JT8 :cool:

[B2N2]

What's wrong with CHEAP hourbuilding?
If you do decide to go to the States(highly recommend it) do not do what I see some time-builders do.
Do NOT drill holes in the sky for 100hrs wasting your time&money in uncontrolled airspace going to uncontrolled airports at 1500ft every day.Go out for long cross-countries,fly through as much controlled airspace as you can handle,talk to as many controllers as you can and most International airports in the US will not charge you a landing fee.Fly high(6500' to 10500' weather permitting)to learn using VOR's and NDB's for your primary nav.
Also good to finally use the perormance charts in the POH.
Time to climb/fuel to climb/leaning procedures/altitudes for best tail-wind(that one is not in the POH by the way) etc etc.
The trick is to keep challenging yourself,if you get bored change the way you do things.

:D :D :D Have fun

[skysheriff]

if you want goo experience fly solo or with other pilots (non-instructors) real IMC in long cross-countries. dont need to burn holes in the sky
An adf approach in moderate turbulence and IMC, thats good experience
you can also try basic aerobatics, immelmans, loopings, spins, lots of fun. you dont need inverted oil system for this.
Many airline pilots do not have polished adf skills. Just remember the crash in croatia (dubrovnik) involving an USAF business jet. Those guys got lost on their adf approach.

It does not mean you will be hired because its a different matter, but you will be a better pilot, able to handle most situations

[Julian]

I echo B2N2, you will gain a whole wealth of experienceflying round the US and with C152 at $45/hour and IFR certified Archer III at $90/hour (and these figures are WET by the way!!!), you can't really go wrong.

Do some planning before you get there and decide where you want to fly to, don't just return to the same airfield every night and you won't fall into the trap you mentioned!

[Edited for spelling!]

[Elvis21]

Julian,

where can I find these cessna's for $45 an hour?

Send the reply via email if you like so the said school does not get a written kicking by the bitter ones on PPRuNe

Cheers!!

[Julian]

Elvis,

I fly out in CA mainly so check you mail for the web site of the hire centre I use.

Julian

[A and C]

Hour building is as much value as you want to make it ,if all you do is drill holes in the local sky then it it worthless but if you go on long trips across europe then it will be of real value in your future career.

I cant say much more on this forum as the rules prohibit eny thing that looks like advertising.

[iankain]

Is there no where in Europe where you can do cheap hours building?

If there was, would you use it? What type of plane would you want to use?

How cheap is cheap? US prices, Standard UK rates divided by two?

[hushkit77]

Try Air Desert Pacific in California.

Many will agree it is dirt cheap and OK aircraft. Hourbuilding in the US is the best experience you can get if you do it right!!

Go Cross Country!!!. I have done three trips in the US and they all spanned across many states and as long and high as I could get.

I managed up to 50 hrs in 7 days while out there. Fly your pants off, after all thats what you go for.

No landing fees, cheap hotels and airports round every corner... even in the desert!! Go for it if you have the money and time cos you will learn a lot ! try www.adp-flight.com :D

Just take care if you go but enjoy it.

[fibod]

I think you raise a valid point Mr Blair. What it really comes down to is what your objectives out of your training are.

If you just want a licence, then do it the cheapest way possible. Just guard against skimping on early (cheap) training to find out someone has to spend time correcting your bad habits later on, when it’s expensive.

If you want to work as a flying instructor or air taxi pilot, then I suggest you get a broad an experience of general aviation as you can, preferably (if you want to work in the UK) in marginal (rather than Arizona) weather. The modular route is definitely best for this.

If you aspire to be one of the very few who go straight from an FTO to the RHS of an airline, then do not waste your time becoming an expert in VFR nav. The integrated courses will give you the bare minimum of IFR training, but more than an unstructured modular ‘hours building’ programme is likely to. If you choose modular, the 100 odd hours between PPL and the CPL module are crucial. I’m not aware of any programme that addresses this issue well.

I have seen students present for the CPL module at extremes. There are those who are fully prepared, capable of getting through in the minimum hours, easily as good as their integrated counterparts. I have also seen those who are dreadful. They have either totally wasted their time, just sticking hours in their log books (often unaware of the poor training value of the flying they are doing), or, worse, they have developed/picked up really bad techniques then practiced them until they become habits. Sometimes these people resent reality; which is all too often that they have to unlearn before they can learn, and it costs them a lot. More often, they regret poor choices/corner cutting early on, made when less well informed about the realities of their profession.

IMHO, 50 hours in 7 days is an excellent example of boring holes in the sky. It’s also unsafe.

The choice, of course, is yours. Just make sure that your choice is relevant to your ambitions, that those are specific, measurable, realistic, and can be achieved in the timescale you set. Oh, and yes, it should also be fun. ;)

[r200biggles]

Modular or Integrated?
I would recommend the modular route. Why? Because its affordable. Its flexible, i.e you can remain in employment whilst in the initial phases of the modular course. The only disadvantage is that it takes a little longer to complete. You also need a lot of self motivation to get yourself through the ATPL exams.

Why not integrated? Costs a lot! A common misconception is that people think that sitting alongside airline sponsored recruits at one of the top aviation colleges will enhance their career prospects. Well, it will, you will have trained through the same school that the airlines trust. However, many self sponsored pilots who have gone this route have complained about the airline students getting preferential treatment, in exam dates for example. Its business - they will. They will give priority to an airline that rakes in £millions each year rather than a one-off £50k. The airline will see the fact that you have trained through that school as a bonus, but not a great advantage - the advantage is not work the extra £10K.

When you go to an airline with a frozen ATPL, if you pass the required standard in the sim/at the interview, they will take you on.

The fact that the student may have burnt holes in the sky in the hour building phase will only make it more difficult for the student when undertaking the CPL and IR modules :)

[Gin Slinger]

My suggestion: do an IMC rating as soon as possible after your PPL - during the hours build you obviously still fly visually, but you can practice tracking/holding NDBs/VORs to your hearts content.

Just stay focused on the goal and fly with as much precision as you can. Hour building shouldn't ever be a waste in my lowly opinion.

50 hours in 7 days sounds well over the top. 6 a day was tops for me!