UK MFTS Fixed Wing Flying Training : The Future

[teeteringhead]

So, the latest wonderful rumour I've heard suggests that pilots are now being sent to become Air Traffic Controllers during their 3 year hold between IOTC Cranwell and Elementary Flying Training. But their time at Shawbury will make them indoctrinated into things rotary!!

Or more worrying, perhaps things rotary in other coloured uniforms....

[BEagle]

But their time at Shawbury will make them indoctrinated into things rotary!!

Or more worrying, perhaps things rotary in other coloured uniforms....

Rather than stoop to such awful depths, perhaps they'll simply look at https://www.nats.aero/careers/trainee-air-traffic-controllers/benefits/ , then pull the black and yellow and kiss the RAF goodbye?

Good grief though - 3 years between IOT and EFT? Is that the best that MFTS can manage these days?

[weemonkey]

A lot can happen to an individual's ideals, motivation and interest in three years.

[Lima Juliet]

So, the latest wonderful rumour I've heard suggests that pilots are now being sent to become Air Traffic Controllers during their 3 year hold between IOTC Cranwell and Elementary Flying Training. Can there really be any truth to this?

Up to 2 years hold but that started coming back recently. The lad in our office came forward 4 months.

Yes, there are a few that have done a cut-down Holding Aircrew Airfield Air-traffic Course (or something like that). It is a cut-down course that qualifies them to do Tower/Ground in the VCR to help out with ATC capacity. They stay in the Flying Branch and are released as soon as their EFT is ready to take them for groundschool. It’s a good place to hold to get experience of Air Traffic - something that will benefit them for the flying careers for years to come.

So not quite as bad as it sounds :ok:

[typerated]

Up to 2 years hold but that started coming back recently. The lad in our office came forward 4 months.

Yes, there are a few that have done a cut-down Holding Aircrew Airfield Air-traffic Course (or something like that). It is a cut-down course that qualifies them to do Tower/Ground in the VCR to help out with ATC capacity. They stay in the Flying Branch and are released as soon as their EFT is ready to take them for groundschool. It’s a good place to hold to get experience of Air Traffic - something that will benefit them for the flying careers for years to come.

So not quite as bad as it sounds :ok:

But still a buggers muddle.
You just hope any (potential) opposition is just as inept as we are!

[57mm]

If the holds are that long, how is the MFTS output going to keep pace with those leaving at the other end of their careers?

[pr00ne]

57mm,

I guess the answer to your question lies in my post above, where the MD of Ascent announced the intent to procure additional aircraft, simulators, instructors and infrastructure to increase the output of MFTS...

[Training Risky]

57mm,

I guess the answer to your question lies in my post above, where the MD of Ascent announced the intent to procure additional aircraft, simulators, instructors and infrastructure to increase the output of MFTS...
If you believe that, I've got an A400M engine I can sell you! (along with a cut-price x-channel ferry).

[pr00ne]

Training Risky,

As it was a direct public announcement from the MD, if it is untrue the Stock Exchange may be a little bit interested cos that be against the law...

[Lima Juliet]

If the holds are that long, how is the MFTS output going to keep pace with those leaving at the other end of their careers?

It’s not the holds that are a problem, it’s just the numbers that are. Have a look at this: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/767505/11485.pdf

It shows the 2018 Pilot gain as 70, and the Total Outflow at 7.4% with a Workforce Requirement of 2040 (strength is 1600 - 440 short). So that is 70 in and 150 out - a loss of 80 when you are in deficit of 440!!! The WSO/WSOp won’t be much better looking at the outflow rates, the training rates and the current demographic. All shown in the above link. :eek:

[57mm]

LJ, thanks, as I suspected. The MFTS proposals for Sims, instructors etc must themselves have a significant time for implementation.

[pr00ne]

57mm,

That is undoubtedly true. While there are rumours of "white tail" T-6's being available it will take time to order build and deliver additional aircraft, simulators and the unspecified 'additional infrastructure' what ever that turns out to be. Though Linton and Scampton ARE both instantly available...

[chopper2004]

Agian with my other post, here are my photos from last weekend's static. Refreshing to see Ascent's finest lined up.
Cheers
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_4415_e39e95109bb2af4948a6d68b4b2ca875d1b87cf2.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/img_4428_d4e01949822e7a3afe81822231018d3a4844c48e.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_4418_3aaf79f50efea93927be8cf8adc54b5cce460edc.jpeg

[Sandy Parts]

Where’s the mighty Grob Prefect? (Actually a nice little aircraft if a bit noisy even for us deaf old gits!)

[chopper2004]

Where’s the mighty Grob Prefect? (Actually a nice little aircraft if a bit noisy even for us deaf old gits!)

Did not take a photo of it, and yes it was there lol

Cheers

[pr00ne]

Grob Prefect T1 ZM307 from Cranwell was there too, along with four Tutor T1's.

[sycamore]

Are the T-6s allowed to fly over the wet stuff yet....?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Are the T-6s allowed to fly over the wet stuff yet....?

The silence is deafening!

[chopper2004]

Laughingly was at the 'Hall yesterday to see pair of Phenoms perform touch and go lol. They have been doing this once a week for the last few weeks I am led to believe so here are my photos so refreshing to see them in action.

Cheers

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/76900747_10158158359431490_8837638545804886016_o_30d8cc5af63 e245fa5f2240d07ebe43a4da42259.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1733x1156/78472005_10158158359616490_2726484620055937024_o_19e6033bd68 bd5cf5b73f4c1c9f0f4e0c45c30f2.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/78548759_10158158359286490_6864590703859597312_o_e2aed49994c 78262bd0f588e172d986473535819.jpg

[Chris Kebab]

Nice pics - but there is something about the Phenom, that I really can't quite put my finger on, that prevents it from looking like a real aeroplane.:confused:

[skua]

I agree CK. The spindly nosewheel leg doesn't help. And looks susceptible to hamfisted studes.

[Davef68]

Like someone took an ERJ and removed most of the fuselage and chopped the wings!

[Dominator2]

Chris Nice pics - but there is something about the Phenom, that I really can't quite put my finger on, that prevents it from looking like a real aeroplane. Its a cheap imitation of a HS125 that has been squashed up. And yes skua, the u/c does not look strong enough for a training ac. What about Offset double main wheels and double nose wheel. Great in a Xwind and on wet runways!!
Below a HS125/200. I'm sure that some HS125 800/900 could have been found that may have been better?
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/799x572/ldsc_0152_1copy_4a9ca0727ec69e950dd903225a8eaaeaccc9a4d0.jpg

[Stitchbitch]

Agreed CK. If they’d used 1/72 markings instead of 1/32 it might have helped

[DCThumb]

Time will tell, but I think it was the US Air Force that used Citation Mustangs at one point and suffered undercarriage issues - modern aircraft are all too lightweight for training,
125 probably too expensive to operate but the Hawker/Nextant 400 is similarly built like a brick outhouse - one of the reasons Nextant chose it for remanufacture and would have been a solid option! Still, Ascent have bought the Phenom, it’s their risk to own. Now, about those CAE/Oxford Air Training shares....

[[email protected]]

Still no clearance for the AEA on the T6's I hear - must be difficult at Valley not being able to fly over the water.......

And the EC 145s have gone back to EGOS I gather so that whole winching piece has gone very well.............................

[Double Hush]

RAF Valley social media are reporting the first solo student T6 flight took place a little while ago so something must be working.

[Bob Viking]

Do you really mean to tell me that the much maligned training system is actually up and running and that certain individuals who no longer serve may not have their fingers firmly on the pulse?!

I find your assertions, frankly, offensive and surely well wide of the mark.

BV

And yes, this is both a sarcastic and a facetious post that is not necessarily intended to be taken seriously.

[Ken Scott]

Now, about those CAE/Oxford Air Training shares....

Your money would be better invested with L3....

[Lordflasheart]

...
... first solo student T6 flight took place a little while ago ....

He is Navy, so no problem over water ....

LFH

...

[muppetofthenorth]

Do you really mean to tell me that the much maligned training system is actually up and running Up and running is not necessarily the same thing as running well...

​​​​

[Ken Scott]

Just heard a low whistling sound over my house in Cumbria, like a couple of Henry vacuum cleaners (other vacuum cleaners are available), imagine my surprise to see one of the aforementioned Phenoms come over at low level. It’s been quite quiet since the Tucanos were withdrawn, although with only a few unpranged ac I can’t imagine it will be a frequent visitor!

[BVRAAM]

As I understand it, the Royal Air Force has a fast-jet hold of 7+ years currently, which is likely to increase given there are ~400 student pilots in various stages of holding, across all three Services. I have been informed they have recently cut back their Direct Entry Pilot intake because they have so many students already in the system.

By contrast, and again as I understand, the Royal Navy has a fast-jet hold of approximately 4-5 years and the pilot training within the Royal Navy is prioritised. I am also aware that there is an agreement between the USN and RN for some RN student pilots to be selected for F/A-18E/F post-BFJT, which gets RN students to the frontline faster and gives them valuable experience to bring back to the RN. I also know that a select few experienced RN Hornet exchange pilots are selected for TOPGUN.

Could somebody with first hand knowledge please confirm the above that relates to UKMFTS to be true, please?
If it's true, how/why are RN Pilots prioritised?

[The B Word]

As I understand it, the Royal Air Force has a fast-jet hold of 7+ years currently, which is likely to increase given there are ~400 student pilots in various stages of holding, across all three Services. I have been informed they have recently cut back their Direct Entry Pilot intake because they have so many students already in the system.

By contrast, and again as I understand, the Royal Navy has a fast-jet hold of approximately 4-5 years and the pilot training within the Royal Navy is prioritised. I am also aware that there is an agreement between the USN and RN for some RN student pilots to be selected for F/A-18E/F post-BFJT, which gets RN students to the frontline faster and gives them valuable experience to bring back to the RN. I also know that a select few experienced RN Hornet exchange pilots are selected for TOPGUN.

Could somebody with first hand knowledge please confirm the above that relates to UKMFTS to be true, please?
If it's true, how/why are RN Pilots prioritised?

7 year hold - utter nonsense! Are you a wannabe RAF Pilot who posts on FaceBook with the initials of JM? You seem to have the same amount of barking ideas, fake news and an opinion on everything (that is invariably wrong).

[Ken Scott]

Not a 7 year hold but it’s taking 7 years to complete training & reach the front line, including holds, I am led to believe. Which would be more time holding than training.

[BVRAAM]

Chaps,

A wording mistake and one I fully accept - apologies. That'll teach me to proof read.

[57mm]

7 years to complete training; what a tragic waste of aircrew students and a bar to recruitment......

[BVRAAM]

7 years to complete training; what a tragic waste of aircrew students and a bar to recruitment......

Yep. From the memoirs I've read, the previous generation(s) would be starting their second tour after 7 years. A tragic waste of tax payer's money.

[Lima Juliet]

Some have taken 7 years and there are onesie/twosie outliers that have taken longer. But you need to take that into perspective. Those that have taken 7 years to get to the Front Line in recent times are the ones that escaped the redundancies in 2011 from SDSR10. Many of whom went into 2-3 year holds whilst the flying training system went onto trickle feed (go figure, we had just made a load redundant and so those that remained weren’t needed all at once!). The time taken from end of IOT to end of OCU, without any holds whatsoever is just shy of 4 years, even in my days of flying training some 30 odd years ago it was around 3-4 years from IOT, through JEFTS, to BFT, to AFT, to TWU and thence through an OCU. Some of us were Fg Offs on the FL, but that was because in those days it took direct entrants without degrees 5.5 years to get to Flt Lt - these days it is 2.5 years for everyone.

The system is still going through the throws of UKMFTS transition, but there is an ambition to get FJ training to end of OCU inside 3 years. However, with the last of the Tucano studes still sitting in a holding pool until mid/late next year there will still be some that have had a sluggish progress through the training pipeline. However, for those joining now and about to start IOT, I would expect to see them on the Front Line in Typhoon or Lightning inside 2025 (ie. around 4 years time).

It was ever thus, and as a second tourist on a FJ squadron I can recall pilots/WSOs that had held for 2 years in the mid/late nineties and taking nearly 6 years to get there. There were also 40-50 somethings on the Sqn at the time that said they could remember times like that in the 70s and 80s. With a 3-4 years training pipeline from walking in the door at Cranwell/Henlow then it doesn’t take much to turn that to 6-7 years post OCU.

But don’t get me wrong, UKMFTS was a bad idea and we should have dug deeper and come up with a better solution than we have...

[[email protected]]

And the lessons weren't learned before the helicopter training system was changed.

Somewhat fortunately for Ascent, the front-line Sqns don't have the capacity to absorb the numbers of pilots they should have been producing so the fact that they got off to such a poor start hasn't had an operational impact.

[Lima Juliet]

Crab

Again, it was ever thus, because the pipeline is owned by various Groups (or the disaster called JHC) then all blame each other!

[just another jocky]

Some have taken 7 years and there are onesie/twosie outliers that have taken longer. But you need to take that into perspective. Those that have taken 7 years to get to the Front Line in recent times are the ones that escaped the redundancies in 2011 from SDSR10. Many of whom went into 2-3 year holds whilst the flying training system went onto trickle feed (go figure, we had just made a load redundant and so those that remained weren’t needed all at once!). The time taken from end of IOT to end of OCU, without any holds whatsoever is just shy of 4 years, even in my days of flying training some 30 odd years ago it was around 3-4 years from IOT, through JEFTS, to BFT, to AFT, to TWU and thence through an OCU. Some of us were Fg Offs on the FL, but that was because in those days it took direct entrants without degrees 5.5 years to get to Flt Lt - these days it is 2.5 years for everyone.

The system is still going through the throws of UKMFTS transition, but there is an ambition to get FJ training to end of OCU inside 3 years. However, with the last of the Tucano studes still sitting in a holding pool until mid/late next year there will still be some that have had a sluggish progress through the training pipeline. However, for those joining now and about to start IOT, I would expect to see them on the Front Line in Typhoon or Lightning inside 2025 (ie. around 4 years time).

It was ever thus, and as a second tourist on a FJ squadron I can recall pilots/WSOs that had held for 2 years in the mid/late nineties and taking nearly 6 years to get there. There were also 40-50 somethings on the Sqn at the time that said they could remember times like that in the 70s and 80s. With a 3-4 years training pipeline from walking in the door at Cranwell/Henlow then it doesn’t take much to turn that to 6-7 years post OCU.

But don’t get me wrong, UKMFTS was a bad idea and we should have dug deeper and come up with a better solution than we have...

Well said Sir!

[BVRAAM]

Some have taken 7 years and there are onesie/twosie outliers that have taken longer. But you need to take that into perspective. Those that have taken 7 years to get to the Front Line in recent times are the ones that escaped the redundancies in 2011 from SDSR10. Many of whom went into 2-3 year holds whilst the flying training system went onto trickle feed (go figure, we had just made a load redundant and so those that remained weren’t needed all at once!). The time taken from end of IOT to end of OCU, without any holds whatsoever is just shy of 4 years, even in my days of flying training some 30 odd years ago it was around 3-4 years from IOT, through JEFTS, to BFT, to AFT, to TWU and thence through an OCU. Some of us were Fg Offs on the FL, but that was because in those days it took direct entrants without degrees 5.5 years to get to Flt Lt - these days it is 2.5 years for everyone.

The system is still going through the throws of UKMFTS transition, but there is an ambition to get FJ training to end of OCU inside 3 years. However, with the last of the Tucano studes still sitting in a holding pool until mid/late next year there will still be some that have had a sluggish progress through the training pipeline. However, for those joining now and about to start IOT, I would expect to see them on the Front Line in Typhoon or Lightning inside 2025 (ie. around 4 years time).

It was ever thus, and as a second tourist on a FJ squadron I can recall pilots/WSOs that had held for 2 years in the mid/late nineties and taking nearly 6 years to get there. There were also 40-50 somethings on the Sqn at the time that said they could remember times like that in the 70s and 80s. With a 3-4 years training pipeline from walking in the door at Cranwell/Henlow then it doesn’t take much to turn that to 6-7 years post OCU.

But don’t get me wrong, UKMFTS was a bad idea and we should have dug deeper and come up with a better solution than we have...


LJ, thank you for clearing that up.

A few guys who have left the service, including one well known blogger/podcaster who were involved have said this will get worse before it gets better - what do they mean by that?

[2 TWU]

I well recall attending a briefing in 2000 when the MFTS dates for fixed wing were declared as 2005 for Valley, 2007 for Linton. It's just happened 12 years late. The Air Commodore was quite open that the system would save money in the first years but be more expensive in the long run.

Linton v Valley. Linton has instant access to free middle airspace, instant access to low flying in any direction, no probs with overwater/goon suits. Valley?

How can just 10 T6s feed 20plus Hawks, isn't that akin to the inverted promotion triangle of the engineer officers branch many years ago? If there is a course in the formation phase needing 3 ships, taking into account servicing and u/s aircraft, that's the whole fleet in use.

Just a thought. With the much reduced BFTS task, coupled with the Reds needing rehousing, put the lot into Linton. The BFTS flying could easily fit round the Reds practice slots, particularly with use of the RLGs. Rumours have it that the army transport unit slated to move into Linton has said no, road/bridge facilities around the base not good enough. Makes sense to me.

[Easy Street]

A few guys who have left the service, including one well known blogger/podcaster who were involved have said this will get worse before it gets better - what do they mean by that?

Don’t know who you mean, but if they are recent leavers as you say then I can have a guess at what they might be on about: retention. I will offer my own theory.

The training system itself is finally on the up, but the effects of the period just ending will be felt for some time. The problem with reaching the front line in your late twenties is that you don’t have time to establish your career before the life choices associated with your thirties start raising their heads.

In my own case, I was mid-way through my second tour, above average in the air, Q-qual’ed and had started getting promotion recommendations when I turned 30. In other words I was confident that I had a decent career ahead of me if I chose to stay in the RAF. Some contemporaries who had struggled in their first two tours and were not obviously heading for either promotion or professional aircrew status did leave in their early thirties. All are now far wealthier than me having succeeded in civvy street. What they understood was that if they deferred career decisions any longer, they’d soon become burdened with those boring financial commitments which arrive with age. Leaving would then be unaffordable until the cushion of the pension became available at 38. A long way off when you’re uncertain of your standing (and 2 years further nowadays). But enough of us had given ourselves confidence to stay and keep the show on the road.

Those age-related expectations are societal and don’t change just because of MFTS. And the nature of squadron life now is very different from the late 1990s when we were last recovering from a holding crisis. So when you reach your early thirties, and you’re mid-way through your first tour with no real idea of where you stand in the grand scheme of things, and you’re unable to do the secondary duties that might start to build a promotion profile because the squadrons are undermanned and stretched, then do you start building financial commitments that will tie you into that treadmill until age 40, or do you jump early to the City or the airlines before making those commitments? You don’t have to agree with their logic, but many are taking their futures in their hands and doing exactly that.

That’s the true time-bomb which MFTS has set for us, IMHO. I have some compassion for those affected, but given we don’t typically struggle to recruit pilots I have to admit feeling that a strategic error was made in hanging onto the recent holding generation. Redundancy payments would have paled into insignificance next to the cost of training replacements for early leavers and it might well have been better for the long-term interest of the RAF if we’d started again with a fresh young intake when the system was finally ready. Time will tell: I give it 5 years or so until we see the effects.

[Lima Juliet]

Easy Street , sadly I agree with much of what you say. I also think raising the recruitment age for Pilots to 26 and WSO/WSOp to 33 was a bad idea as that exacerbates the issues to which you refer. Even joining at 22 I was behind the drag curve when I joined up way back. Also, the shifting of the 16/38 pension to 18/40 and then 20/40 has also shifted the goal posts somewhat (although the Baldricks came forward from 22 to 20, which was a good thing). So minor dabbling here and there, with pay, pension, entry age, training system, redundancies and terms of service changes, without understand the collective 2nd and 3rd order effects, has left things in a bit of tangle (understatement!).

[BEagle]

And I thought I'd taken an age....

Went to RAFC as a Flt Cdt at 17, did a year then off to University as an APO / Plt Off (and much Chipmunkery) until I went back to RAFC at 22. Finished JP training and 'Wings' at 23, finally to my first squadron at 26 after Valley, TWU, part of the Bucc OCU, reselection, SORF course and finally the Vulcan OCU. Flying tours various for the next 25 years, with just one 5-week ground tour detachment. Airlines? No thanks!!

I admire the commitment of anyone wanting to become an RAF FJ pilot these days - it seems to be a very long and winding road.

[[email protected]]

Airlines? No thanks!! Absolutely - I went to Cranditz 3 days after my 21st birthday in 82, followed by Swinderby FSS, Linton BFTS, Shawbury FTS and was operational on my first tour, on 72 Sqn in NI, in May 84 as a Plt Off.

32 years of flying tours with no ground dets - such a shame such careers don't seem available for the modern yoof.

[Fixed Cross]

Just For Comparison:

OASC Hornchurch (Nov 56); Bridgenorth (Squarebashing - Feb-Apr 57); Topcliffe ( Nav school Apr-Oct 57); North Luffenham/Leeming (Nov57-Jun58) Javelin OCU; 89/85 Sqn (Jul 58) Age 19 years 2 months. Front Line Tour .

Dec 61 - Jun 64 Pilot Training; Jul 64 Syerston as first tour QFI Age 25 (NCO until Jan 64).

[BVRAAM]

Don’t know who you mean, but if they are recent leavers as you say then I can have a guess at what they might be on about: retention. I will offer my own theory.

The training system itself is finally on the up, but the effects of the period just ending will be felt for some time. The problem with reaching the front line in your late twenties is that you don’t have time to establish your career before the life choices associated with your thirties start raising their heads.

In my own case, I was mid-way through my second tour, above average in the air, Q-qual’ed and had started getting promotion recommendations when I turned 30. In other words I was confident that I had a decent career ahead of me if I chose to stay in the RAF. Some contemporaries who had struggled in their first two tours and were not obviously heading for either promotion or professional aircrew status did leave in their early thirties. All are now far wealthier than me having succeeded in civvy street. What they understood was that if they deferred career decisions any longer, they’d soon become burdened with those boring financial commitments which arrive with age. Leaving would then be unaffordable until the cushion of the pension became available at 38. A long way off when you’re uncertain of your standing (and 2 years further nowadays). But enough of us had given ourselves confidence to stay and keep the show on the road.

Those age-related expectations are societal and don’t change just because of MFTS. And the nature of squadron life now is very different from the late 1990s when we were last recovering from a holding crisis. So when you reach your early thirties, and you’re mid-way through your first tour with no real idea of where you stand in the grand scheme of things, and you’re unable to do the secondary duties that might start to build a promotion profile because the squadrons are undermanned and stretched, then do you start building financial commitments that will tie you into that treadmill until age 40, or do you jump early to the City or the airlines before making those commitments? You don’t have to agree with their logic, but many are taking their futures in their hands and doing exactly that.

That’s the true time-bomb which MFTS has set for us, IMHO. I have some compassion for those affected, but given we don’t typically struggle to recruit pilots I have to admit feeling that a strategic error was made in hanging onto the recent holding generation. Redundancy payments would have paled into insignificance next to the cost of training replacements for early leavers and it might well have been better for the long-term interest of the RAF if we’d started again with a fresh young intake when the system was finally ready. Time will tell: I give it 5 years or so until we see the effects.


I can see how that would be a problem.

Me personally, all I want to do is fly. Command would be nice but, from the research I have done, command is a pipe-dream for any aircrew joining the RAF/RN in their mid-20's. So it's fair to say command would never happen for me.
The guys and girls getting command tours seem to have made Squadron Leader/Lieutenant Commander by age 30, and gone through Staff College and made Wing Commander/Commander before 40. Those joining at 25 (or older, up to 34 for the RN) will be lucky if they're on their first front line Squadron before 30. Maybe the system of promotion will change slightly to compensate for the considerably older aircrew completing flying training these days?

The pension for professional aviators looks incredible - OF-3's can earn the pension of an OF-5 with a fraction of the responsibility. That's better than a desk job in London...

[Easy Street]

I can see how that would be a problem.

Me personally, all I want to do is fly. Command would be nice but, from the research I have done, command is a pipe-dream for any aircrew joining the RAF/RN in their mid-20's. So it's fair to say command would never happen for me.
The guys and girls getting command tours seem to have made Squadron Leader/Lieutenant Commander by age 30, and gone through Staff College and made Wing Commander/Commander before 40. Those joining at 25 (or older, up to 34 for the RN) will be lucky if they're on their first front line Squadron before 30. Maybe the system of promotion will change slightly to compensate for the considerably older aircrew completing flying training these days?

The pension for professional aviators looks incredible - OF-3's can earn the pension of an OF-5 with a fraction of the responsibility. That's better than a desk job in London...

But you don’t (or at least, shouldn’t) get professional aviator status unless you are genuinely worth retaining as an aviator, and that won’t be evident until at least three or four tours. Not everyone makes the grade; as I indicated it can be obvious from an early stage. If the RAF ends up offering it to everyone simply to make up the numbers then we really will have stuffed ourselves.

Very few have ever joined with command in mind. I suspect most of us just wanted to fly. But things change, as I tried to get across in my post. Some do indeed set their sights on command and beyond (thankfully: the RAF needs the good ones). Some continue just wanting to fly (we need the good ones of them too). Some pass training but find that the ups and downs of military service aren’t for them. Some find that they’ve enjoyed it but have ‘scratched the itch’ and look for new experiences, or prioritise newly-acquired families. Such changes in perspective with age can and have happened to many who were once as single-minded as you. That is why a strict age limit and relatively swift progress were a good thing when investing millions of pounds in individuals’ training: the RAF stood more chance of getting a decent return before they left.

[BVRAAM]

But you don’t (or at least, shouldn’t) get professional aviator status unless you are genuinely worth retaining as an aviator, and that won’t be evident until at least three or four tours. Not everyone makes the grade; as I indicated it can be obvious from an early stage. If the RAF ends up offering it to everyone simply to make up the numbers then we really will have stuffed ourselves.

Very few have ever joined with command in mind. I suspect most of us just wanted to fly. But things change, as I tried to get across in my post. Some do indeed set their sights on command and beyond (thankfully: the RAF needs the good ones). Some continue just wanting to fly (we need the good ones of them too). Some pass training but find that the ups and downs of military service aren’t for them. Some find that they’ve enjoyed it but have ‘scratched the itch’ and look for new experiences, or prioritise newly-acquired families. Such changes in perspective with age can and have happened to many who were once as single-minded as you. That is why a strict age limit and relatively swift progress were a good thing when investing millions of pounds in individuals’ training: the RAF stood more chance of getting a decent return before they left.

Do you think 6 years return of service for a fast jet pilot reflects the considerable cost (approximately £4.5m) to train them?

[Easy Street]

Do you think 6 years return of service for a fast jet pilot reflects the considerable cost (approximately £4.5m) to train them?

I’m no expert on this but I suspect the RoS period is probably based on a fairly narrow financial analysis in order to head off any legal challenges. So it probably does reflect the cost. But the reality is that a new front-line pilot is a burden on the system as a whole for at least 2 or 3 years: a net ‘consumer’ of supervision rather than a ‘producer’ of it. If you have a high turnover of junior pilots then the supervisors do lots of supervising (which has some benefit, but only in narrow areas of expertise) instead of developing or maintaining the more advanced skills which a capable force requires. So financial cost of keeping the RAF manned with pilots, probably yes. Capability cost of high turnover, I’m not so sure...

The system can cope with some people leaving after 6 years’ RoS. As I suggested in my first post that sometimes made sense for both the RAF and the individual. But it couldn’t cope at the expected level of capability if everyone left at their RoS. The crossover point between coping and not coping is somewhere in between. The difference now is that a much higher proportion of pilots will find themselves at that RoS point as life choices need to be made. The proportion leaving is creeping up and the stresses are showing; the question is whether it continues to creep up as the holding generation takes stock.

[BVRAAM]

I’m no expert on this but I suspect the RoS period is probably based on a fairly narrow financial analysis in order to head off any legal challenges. So it probably does reflect the cost. But the reality is that a new front-line pilot is a burden on the system as a whole for at least 2 or 3 years: a net ‘consumer’ of supervision rather than a ‘producer’ of it. If you have a high turnover of junior pilots then the supervisors do lots of supervising (which has some benefit, but only in narrow areas of expertise) instead of developing or maintaining the more advanced skills which a capable force requires. So financial cost of keeping the RAF manned with pilots, probably yes. Capability cost of high turnover, I’m not so sure...

The system can cope with some people leaving after 6 years’ RoS. As I suggested in my first post that sometimes made sense for both the RAF and the individual. But it couldn’t cope at the expected level of capability if everyone left at their RoS. The crossover point between coping and not coping is somewhere in between. The difference now is that a much higher proportion of pilots will find themselves at that RoS point as life choices need to be made. The proportion leaving is creeping up and the stresses are showing; the question is whether it continues to creep up as the holding generation takes stock.

Thanks for that.

I gather, then, that it's reasonable to conclude that the RAF/RN therefore directly benefits from the professional aviator spine, because it retains experienced aircrew to maintain the cadre and keep experienced people on the frontline to supervise the new aircrew, who would otherwise leave or be posted elsewhere for their career development, presumably on staff tours or operational ground roles.
Do you think the retention issue can be partly solved by more PAS slots?

[Easy Street]

Do you think the retention issue can be partly solved by more PAS slots?

That only works if you lower the entry bar to PAS to encourage waverers to stay. That could be done, perhaps, but it might not be in the RAF’s best interests. The supervisors need to be suitably capable as well as experienced.

For someone who apparently ‘just wants to fly’ you seem to be very interested in the long-term financial considerations associated with it, and the management problems facing future commanders too! Certainly to a depth beyond anything OASC will question you on. I knew nothing of the finer points of PAS (etc) when I went, and have never seen such topics mentioned in the interviews I’ve been fortunate enough to observe as a guest in the course of my duties. Time for action rather than more research?

[BVRAAM]

Time for action rather than more research?

I take great interest in the RAF and the aerial warfighting elements of the other services!
Action's already being taken - 2020 will be the year of results.

[The B Word]

That only works if you lower the entry bar to PAS to encourage waverers to stay. That could be done, perhaps, but it might not be in the RAF’s best interests. The supervisors need to be suitably capable as well as experienced.

For someone who apparently ‘just wants to fly’ you seem to be very interested in the long-term financial considerations associated with it, and the management problems facing future commanders too! Certainly to a depth beyond anything OASC will question you on. I knew nothing of the finer points of PAS (etc) when I went, and have never seen such topics mentioned in the interviews I’ve been fortunate enough to observe as a guest in the course of my duties. Time for action rather than more research?


Easy Street - if BVRAAM is who I think he is, then he has befriended many FJ pilots (current and ex) on Facebook, many who have since unfriended him (me included). I tried calling him out earlier in this discussion. He has spent about the last 5 years coming up with bogus opinions on just about everything! The most recent is today:

Do you think 6 years return of service for a fast jet pilot reflects the considerable cost (approximately £4.5m) to train them?

That is so far wide of the mark with respect to trg costs. Then there was the “7 year holds” mentioned this week - also nonsense.

BVRAAM - do us all a favour matey. Go get yourself tested at OASC and put us out of our misery! Please stop quoting stuff as if you know what your talking about; it doesn’t work here and it certainly won’t work at OASC. If you persist at that I suspect they will show you the door before the afternoon is out!

[RetiredBA/BY]

Airlines? No thanks!!

.

You dont know what you missed !!

[BEagle]

RetiredBA/BY, probably just the salary and pension deals!

Meeting up with ex-sqn chums now flying for the airlines, I don't think that I would have enjoyed the Groundhog Day style. I guess longhaul might have been tolerable though. I had an ATPL, but never bothered to apply to the airlines. ba was off my list (and still is, even as a passenger) after the 'Dirty Tricks' era, reinforced when Skippy killed Concorde.

As for EU shorthaul... Arrive with minimal time to plan and brief, get to aeroplane and wait for paperwork, e-flight plans etc to arrive. Wait until ATCC has managed to find a departure time, then pushback, taxy, wait, take-off, reach TOC and more paperwork... If there's time then it's "Mumble, mumble, "Brussels"", then arrival paperwork, brief... "STAR to published ILS" isn't enough these days ever since the airlines thought that they'd invented CRM...land, taxy, wait, park - rinse and repeat a further 3 times at least, before getting home knackered knowing that it'd probably be the same for the next couple of days at least. OK, I'm exaggerating, I guess.

Turn the clock back to the '70s and early '80s and I might agree with you though!

[RetiredBA/BY]

No. You are not exaggerating, for some. But It was never like that for me and my s i law, a TC on 787 for BA, has an excellent life style which provides him with a much better salary than the CAS.

Depends on the standard of living, combined with job satisfaction one aspires to !

An airline life, flying a nice big jet around the world. combined with the opportunity and time to run one’s own business is something I can heartily recommend !!

[BVRAAM]

No. You are not exaggerating, for some. But It was never like that for me and my s i law, a TC on 787 for BA, has an excellent life style which provides him with a much better salary than the CAS.

Depends on the standard of living, combined with job satisfaction one aspires to !

An airline life, flying a nice big jet around the world. combined with the opportunity and time to run one’s own business is something I can heartily recommend !!
But will he retire with a pension paying just under £100K a year and a lump sum of 3x that?
The CAS will.

[beardy]

But will he retire with a pension paying just under £100K a year and a lump sum of 3x that?
The CAS will.
There's only one CAS at a time. There are a lot of senior Captains.
I would never have been CAS, but I made senior Captain.

[RetiredBA/BY]

But will he retire with a pension paying just under £100K a year and a lump sum of 3x that?
The CAS will.
Dont know, but I did !! ( actually a lot more as a senior captain and CEO of my own business );

[Baldeep Inminj]

This conversation is an illustration of a basic axiom...’horses for courses’. There are some such as Beagle who relished the military flying, and others for whom the allure of the airlines was too great, and they will have their own reasons for this point of view. For some it will be money, for others it will be lifestyle. Neither are wrong in their choices.
I have noticed, in this current thread drift on retention, that it concentrates on flying posts. I just want to highlight the fact there are a lot of positions in civvy street, particularly outside the UK, which are based outside the cockpit, and which pay huge rewards.
I was PA, Senior Instructor, CFS staff etc. (I was a Rotary guy) I left after 22 great years. I loved it all. I never had a ground tour, saw the world, and made friends for life. It was brilliant.

Joining the RAF was the best thing I ever did. The 2nd best thing I ever did was leaving.

I now work for an international defence contractor. I work daily with military customers from around the world. I am regularly in a cockpit but my role is not flying. I do not have a licence. My salary is significantly more than double that of the highest paid pilot at BA, and I have hired 2 ex RAF Rotary guys and 1 ex RN into similar roles. We are based in North America and life is just awesome.

My point is simple - when people talk about retention and why people leave, they need to stop focusing on airlines as there are far better jobs, with much higher pay, out there. Senior military pilots have an extremely valuable skill set, and in an airline this means nothing - the self improver (no criticism!) who joined the day before you will always be senior to you. However, there are defence contractors willing to pay for your knowledge and skills in another level entirely.

The airline factor will always be an issue for military retention I agree, but there is a far bigger and more lucrative world out there. People should remember that.

[Lima Juliet]

Well said Baldeep. Also, there are other Branches that go outside and earn big sums of cash - even scribblies in the corporate and finance world. So the age old debate of why do I get paid the same basic salary and pension as a scribbly (Pers or TG17) needs to dry up too. The ‘flying pay’ (now RRP(F)) is never supposed to compete with these commercial market amounts but is to try and make life financially better enough to be suitably comfortable. It is a ‘hearts and minds’ measure and always has been (never danger money as that is wrapped up in X-Factor).

One thing I would say, is if you do leave for £100k, £150k, £200k or more per year - the more you earn, the more the company will want from you, that’s the basics of business. When you aren’t worth it, they can and will let you go, or will make you work so you are worth that amount. Also, most companies will contribute something to your pension, but not all. So you will need to find at least £2k to £3k per month to invest from your £100k, £150k, £200k or more per year, to get a similar amount to your AFPS pension. So make sure you weigh it all up - fun factor (there is still some to be had in Service life), salary, pension, seniority in the organisation, lifestyle, etc... When it doesn’t work for the individual then look to change that - either inside or outside your current employer. We have quite a few re-joiner applications so the Services must be doing something right!

[The...Bird]

How is MFTS doing? Are the holds coming down?

[Countdown begins]

By all accounts, that side of MFTS is the golden child. Valley is very much a WIP project, but from the chaps at Cranwell the rear crew are pretty much sorted, in fact ISTAR may deliver early.
WSO training is getting there, just a few teething issues on a recent abo course to correct.
So whilst we all want to moan about the white elephant, it is actually delivering now.
Multies are fine, a steady enough through flow at present, but watch this space.

[The...Bird]

By all accounts, that side of MFTS is the golden child. Valley is very much a WIP project, but from the chaps at Cranwell the rear crew are pretty much sorted, in fact ISTAR may deliver early.
WSO training is getting there, just a few teething issues on a recent abo course to correct.
So whilst we all want to moan about the white elephant, it is actually delivering now.
Multies are fine, a steady enough through flow at present, but watch this space.

I've heard regarding FJ route they're sending guys to ENJJPT, RAAF, and Germany?

So has the multi fiasco with sending guys to to Bournemouth and doing their training with civilian companies has stopped?

Shouldn't the holds be coming down as they've cut pilot recruitment numbers back?

[Davef68]

Four more H145s ordered

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-orders-four-more-h145-jupiter-training-helicopters/136248.article

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has ordered an additional batch of four Airbus Helicopters H145 Jupiter trainers for operation by the Ascent Flight Training joint venture.

Part of a contract amendment worth £183 million ($238 million) that also includes an additional simulator and infrastructure improvements, delivery of the new helicopters is due to begin in 2020.

Rear crew training can be performed with H145s

Ascent already operates a fleet of three Jupiter HT1 helicopters, alongside 29 of the smaller H135 Juno HT1s, at the tri-service Defence Helicopter Flying School (DHFS) at the Royal Air Force’s Shawbury base under its Military Flying Training System contract.

But Ascent needs to create additional capacity for rear crew training, which cannot be performed using the Juno fleet.

In addition, because some rear crews destined for rotary-wing service still undertake some training on fixed-wing aircraft, the move will have the additional benefit of freeing up extra capacity elsewhere in Ascent’s operation, sources indicate.

Ascent also operates smaller H135 Juno alongside Jupiter (r)

Ascent – a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Babcock – took delivery of the first helicopters from the £1.1 billion ($1.4 billion) order in 2017, with rotary-wing training using the assets starting the following year.


and this slipped in at the end

Additionally, DHFS will over the coming months be rebranded, FlightGlobal understands. However, its new identity has yet to be revealed.

[Davef68]

MOD press release:

The MOD’s UK Military Flying Training System (UKMFTS) has signed a £183 million contract to boost training services for new Rotary Wing pilots.

The contract amendment includes:


- An uplift of four new Airbus H145 helicopters

- A state-of-the-art simulator and infrastructure improvements

- Support in attracting and training personnel to meet the increased helicopter demand from the frontline

The new H145 helicopters and simulator will enable students to learn how to fly a range of missions, covering expected scenarios on operational deployment. In addition, the H145s enable students to practice winching tasks and rear crew activities.

Defence Minister James Heappey said:
This £183 million boost for our helicopter training will see our student pilots benefit from an ultra-modern simulator, new infrastructure at RAF Shawbury and four brand-new Airbus H145 helicopters. These crucial upgrades will help our students become the finest helicopter pilots in the world.
The Rotary Wing contract amendment was signed by UKMFTS - part of Defence, Equipment & Support (DE&S) - and Ascent Flight Training Management Ltd, which delivers pilot training for the UKMFTS in a partnering arrangement. It is part of a wider programme to increase training capacity for UK military pilots overall, as part of the £3.2 billion UKMFTS programme and helps address the increased demand for pilot training identified in the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review.

The four new H145 helicopters and simulator will be based at RAF Shawbury, Shropshire, which is where the Rotary Wing element of UKMFTS is delivered. The infrastructure improvements will cater for the increased student numbers.

Commodore Tom Manson, UKMFTS Head, Defence Equipment & Support, said:
I am delighted to uplift the capacity of our tri-service military helicopter pilot training services that we deliver in partnership with Ascent. The new twin-engine Airbus H145s will enhance the current mix of H135 and H145s that are used on UKMFTS, providing increased flexibility to deliver the range of training required for both pilots and aircrewmen in advance of flying front line helicoptersThe H145 family (BK117, EC145 and H145) is a well-proven training aircraft with more than 1,300 helicopters in service around the world and has clocked more than 5.5 million flight hours.


The UKMFTS Programme is delivering a world-class, state-of-the-art training system which is a global exemplar for training aircrew in preparation for the operational front line.

[Countdown begins]

The UKMFTS Programme is delivering a world-class, state-of-the-art training system which is a global exemplar for training aircrew in preparation for the operational front line.


And Shawbury is a little slow, so what? If you look at the growth area, that will deliver on time or up to 11 weeks early.
We are getting there, and when it’s signed off it is guaranteed to be ahead of the game internationally. In under 4 years we will be training other nationalities and making good money from it. The future is worth the odd hiccup now.
Ive had sub par students during the last 12 months, but the updates are hopeful.

[Asturias56]

The Hawk thread seems to indicate all training will be done in simulators in the relatively near future..............

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/628945-future-hawk.html post #1

[The...Bird]

Will/are the T1's doing any AFJT for guys coming from the Texan?

[[email protected]]

The UKMFTS Programme is delivering a world-class, state-of-the-art training system which is a global exemplar for training aircrew in preparation for the operational front line.
And Shawbury is a little slow, so what? If you look at the growth area, that will deliver on time or up to 11 weeks early.
We are getting there, and when it’s signed off it is guaranteed to be ahead of the game internationally. In under 4 years we will be training other nationalities and making good money from it. The future is worth the odd hiccup now. So they underbid for the contract, didn't listen to people who knew about helicopter flying training, have fallen at the first, second and third hurdles for training delivery, are haemorrhaging QHIs due to poor salaries, still have ATC Corporals creating the the flypro (badly) which can't cope with the needed flexible responses to weather, had to dump the 'taxi-rank' system because it didn't survive first contact and have been rewarded for their failure with a £183 million pound elastoplast from the Govt - hardly a few hiccups and definitely not good value for money for the UK taxpayers.

Maybe the whole validity of the competition and their 'winning' bid needs to be revisited.

[pr00ne]

[email protected]

Fish to go with that huge chip?

[Lordflasheart]

...
Maybe the whole validity of the competition and their 'winning' bid needs to be revisited.

....
And I think that's just the helicopter bit he's talking about ....

But how many times has the 'requirement' been altered, usually at short notice?
Here's the latest change of plan - https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/629067-raf-c130-increase-crews.html

And how many sticking plasters have already had to be applied ?

LFH
...

[[email protected]]

Proone - just pointing out, as if it really needs highlighting, that the rotary side of MFTS has been a great waste of time and money with plenty of senior officers believing the snake-oil salesmen from Ascent when they told them they had great new ways to deliver flying training cheaper!

They won the contract, couldn't deliver and are now being baled out with the injection of more public cash - a bloody disgrace.

[The...Bird]

I know this is a bit of a stab in the dark but does anyone know how many pilots are currently on hold? As it's been a year since it was on the news when apparently 350 were holding, just thought it would be interesting to know what the numbers are now/if anything has improved.

[Sky Sports]

Is the Texan cleared to fly over water yet?

Is the backlog in the pipeline reducing yet?

[Vortex Hoop]

[email protected]

Fish to go with that huge chip? Crab is talking much sense. My spies in Shropshire say that the Juno sqns are mightily p1$$ed off about the whole MFTS thing and morale is quite low!

[MightyGem]

I know this is a bit of a stab in the dark but does anyone know how many pilots are currently on hold? As it's been a year since it was on the news when apparently 350 were holding, just thought it would be interesting to know what the numbers are now/if anything has improved.

I believe that the AAC are soon to scrap the FW phase of the Army Pilots Course due to the RAF/RN wanting all the basic FW slots to try and clear the backlog.

[Easy Street]

But how many times has the 'requirement' been altered, usually at short notice?
Here's the latest change of plan - https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/629067-raf-c130-increase-crews.html

And how many sticking plasters have already had to be applied ?

Changes to the training throughput requirement have always been required and will continue to be required as long as we have manned aircraft and Defence reviews and fluctuations in the civilian jobs market and changes in crewing ratios and operational commitments and and.... you get the picture. Surely the future costs of MFTS and the legacy system weren't compared on the assumption that requirements would never change?

[just another jocky]

I believe that the AAC are soon to scrap the FW phase of the Army Pilots Course due to the RAF/RN wanting all the basic FW slots to try and clear the backlog.

There may well be at least one incorrect assumption in there.

[BEagle]

The UKMFTS Programme is delivering a world-class, state-of-the-art training system which is a global exemplar for training aircrew in preparation for the operational front line.

[...]and Captain Blackadder definitely did not shoot that delicious plump-breasted pigeon!

[Sky Sports]

My spies in Shropshire

Vortex - are your spies the young officers on course or the civvy instructors? My understanding, and it didn't come from the official PR, was that the courses at Shawbury were running quite well now and the throughput was improving.

[just another jocky]

[...]and Captain Blackadder definitely did not shoot that delicious plump-breasted pigeon!

Actually Beags, it is delivering.

Yes, it has taken a while to dent the backlog created by the Govt changing its mind over the number of aircrew needed, but the holds are overall getting shorter, the aircraft are pretty darned good and the end product....well we'll have to wait and see but let's please not have a "we were better in my day" debate.

[Onceapilot]

I will say one thing about the 150 hour ex-ab initios that I was teaching a few years ago....they certainly thought they were good! :)

OAP

[MightyGem]

There may well be at least one incorrect assumption in there.
Quite possibly.

[Vortex Hoop]

Vortex - are your spies the young officers on course or the civvy instructors? My understanding, and it didn't come from the official PR, was that the courses at Shawbury were running quite well now and the throughput was improving.
Neither of those two groups...and it's not the batting staff or Harry Staish's cat either! ;)

[The...Bird]

Could someone please provide the link for said video?

[The B Word]

Rumour is that they have been summoned for borrowing stuff out of the bar outside drinking hours without returning it? So nowt to do with the video.

[Whenurhappy]

Not a chance. A few things borrowed from the bar...a minor ‘bosses talk’ at best. There is a more sinister force at work here and these innocent lads will be scapegoats for it.
MFTS is terrified the country, the press and most importantly the taxpayer will learn how appalling it is. It is destroying training yet costing more than the system it replaced.
It was a huge mistake. Those who implemented it are culpable of negligence. The Press will soon be all over this, and rightfully so. Those responsible for this completely foreseeable waste of taxpayers money must be held to account.
I still remain gobsmacked that a certain 3* at Air Command got to 3* in spite of presiding over MFTS for a good couple of years and did nothing in that time to rectify MFTS.

[father_teds_father]

It’s now out in public. Try Fill Your Boots on FB.


Three and a half years, just to complete the Shawbury element of flying training?:ooh:

[sangiovese.]

Regardless of the message the sense of humour of those students is required if you’re SH in Kosovo Afghanistan Iraq NI insert location here. Well done guys.

[The...Bird]

Is anything actually improving about MFTS? It seems to just be getting worse.
I've heard the guys on EFT or just finishing EFT at the moment finished IOT nearly 3 years ago!

[Baldeep Inminj]

Three and a half years, just to complete the Shawbury element of flying training?:ooh:

Not actually correct - the real situation is worse. The rotary course includes a large maritime element, which all graduates of MFTS have NOT completed. More than 2 years after the arrival of the new maritime training helicopter, the H145, the overwater and winching phase is still not happening.
This is yet another way in which MFTS is vastly inferior to the system it replaced.
When you see one of those Ascent Press Releases talking about a course graduating from Shawbury, ask what they have actually done - ask if they received training in those crucial skills that they would have been taught under the previous system. The answer is no.

[wallsend]

https://www.facebook.com/FYBRAF/

[[email protected]]

Apparently, Ascent's plan to fund the purchase of more 145s (who would have thought their initial numbers were woefully inadequate) involved offering the AAC a bunch of 135s at a highly inflated price, well over the cost of new ones............I believe they were told to ram it.

How do these people stay in business? Oh yes, Govt handouts and a poor contract......

[FloaterNorthWest]

Crab,

How can Ascent sell something they don’t own? And are they buying the 145s?

FNW

[Baldeep Inminj]

FNW is quite correct. Ascent do not own the aircraft, they are the property of the MOD.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Rumour is that they have been summoned for borrowing stuff out of the bar outside drinking hours without returning it? So nowt to do with the video.

so did they graduate yesterday or not?

[[email protected]]

FNW is quite correct. Ascent do not own the aircraft, they are the property of the MOD.
Then perhaps they have been negotiating on behalf of MOD or perhaps Airbus have been involved - either way Ascent needs more 145s and someone will have to pay for them. No doubt the British taxpayer.
Perhaps the same senior officers who f**cked this up in the first place are now trying to work out how to rob Peter to pay Paul and acquire new 145s so the training contract can actually start to work.
All the risk with this contract seems to fall to the taxpayer and someone thought this was a great idea.

[Baldeep Inminj]

The setup of Rotary MFTS is complicated. Ascent managed to get the MOD to agree to a contract in which Ascent design the training, Ascent select the Aircraft, Airbus ‘run’ the aircraft, but the MOD pays for them. Bear in mind that the reason for MFTS was an NAO report saying that training cost too much and took too long.
It was, of course, a naive report- training is expensive.
Regardless, MFTS was set up to save money and time in training, and this is clear in every decision taken by Ascent. They selected the cheapest aircraft, and the huge proportion of training that is for rearcrew just stopped, as the H135 is unfit for purpose...but my goodness they are cheap!
The MOD made a fundamentally flawed decision to proceed with MFTS, but they did, and the question is how to fix it. It presently costs more per trainee than the previous system, takes far longer, and produces an inferior product as key elements are no longer being trained...all of which was clearly foreseeable by the instructors on the shop-floor.
I believe there should be a parliamentary inquiry into this situation to determine if it really is the grossly negligent use of taxpayers money that it certainly appears to be.

[teeteringhead]

all of which was clearly foreseeable by the instructors on the shop-floor. But we/they were never properly consulted...... What do they know who are doing it??

[BEagle]

Incidentally, have any ME students graduated yet on the few Phenoms which haven't collided with each other?

Has anyone yet seen any report on the 2 Phenoms (ZM335 & ZM336) which had the mid-air on 3 July 2018?

[H Peacock]

Incidentally, have any ME students graduated yet on the few Phenoms which haven't collided with each other?

Nope, all MEPT graduating studes have either flown 335 or 336, if not both!

anyone yet seen any report on the 2 Phenoms (ZM335 & ZM336) which had the mid-air on 3 July 2018?

Yep!

[ExAscoteer2]

A total bloody disaster. I despair, I truly do.

[Davef68]

FNW is quite correct. Ascent do not own the aircraft, they are the property of the MOD.

Does the same apply to the fixed wing element - I recall seeng something that said the T6s would 'eventually' become MOD property

[Vortex Hoop]

Not actually correct - the real situation is worse. The rotary course includes a large maritime element, which all graduates of MFTS have NOT completed. More than 2 years after the arrival of the new maritime training helicopter, the H145, the overwater and winching phase is still not happening.
This is yet another way in which MFTS is vastly inferior to the system it replaced.
When you see one of those Ascent Press Releases talking about a course graduating from Shawbury, ask what they have actually done - ask if they received training in those crucial skills that they would have been taught under the previous system. The answer is no.
WIWOL Griffins, the SARTU phase was pass/fail. People who would have done well on SH were chopped on the Maritime phase for shaky hovering during decks 'n wets, despite never even wishing to see a picture of a Sea King, let alone fly one! Good fun in hindsight though. Landing on the Dublin-Holyhead ferry was fun.

[[email protected]]

Vortex - my very first student as a baby B2 QHI at SARTU (1989) decided he definitely didn't want SAR post Shawbury - his flying was fine over land but went to pieces inexplicably over the water. An overheard comment from one of his course mates led to the penny dropping for me - he had deliberately failed the sortie. After a firm debrief in which he was reminded that if he didn't pass SARTU, he didn't get his wings at all, suddenly he was good as gold again.

Baldeep - good post:ok:

[Lordflasheart]

...
Has anyone yet seen any report on the 2 Phenoms (ZM335 & ZM336) which had the mid-air on 3 July 2018?

Well at least they've both been seen flying again.

Chopper 2004 posted a nice photo of ZM336 at the 'Hall in November 2019 (see Page 15, Post 269 above)

Photo of ZM335 at Fairford July 2019 here -

https://www.airteamimages.com/embraer-phenom_ZM335_united-kingdom---royal-air-force_339639.html

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[Lordflasheart]

...
Incidentally, have any ME students graduated yet on the few Phenoms which haven't collided with each other ?

L3 are now mid way through their initial three year RAF contract, so some fifty studes should have completed the ME course on the DA42.

Where do they go after Bournemouth ? A few hours on the Phenom to get up to speed and learn formation flying, followed by OFS on their front-line type ?

Or is it "And Now for Something Completely Different" again ?

...

[just another jocky]

...


L3 are now mid way through their initial three year RAF contract, so some fifty studes should have completed the ME course on the DA42.

Where do they go after Bournemouth ? A few hours on the Phenom to get up to speed and learn formation flying, followed by OFS on their front-line type ?

Or is it "And Now for Something Completely Different" again ?

...
They've already been taught formation flying so no need to hit 45 Sqn, it's straight to their OCU's.

[Bob Viking]

I bet it does wonders for the confidence and morale of the trainee pilots on the courses being discussed herein, to have the quality of their training being constantly called into question by the assembled experts of Pprune.

This presumes, of course, that the youngsters in question even continue to regard this forum as a useful source.

I realise this seems confrontational and grumpy but I know how it would make me feel.

BV

[Lordflasheart]

...
They've already been taught formation flying so no need to hit 45 Sqn, it's straight to their OCU's.
Thanks Justa' .... That's good news. The L3 sticking plaster is working.

...

[Ken Scott]

I don’t believe there is any formation at L3, no low level either. (Happy to be corrected though). They don’t even fly visual circuits. It’s all CPL-lite IF & asymmetric work. The students are capable & hard-working but they are being done no favors by their abbreviated training. As I understand it there is a continuous ongoing discussion as to where more corners can be cut too. So their first formation might well be in a £160million ac behind a £300million one. What could possibly go wrong?

So we have a sub-PPL EFT course followed by a CPL-lite ‘AFT’ then straight to a ME OCU where unlike their civil counterparts, who spend 8-10 years in the RHS learning their (Strat only) craft from the highly experienced captain in the LHS, they will be doing Tac as well alongside a captain with 3-4 years on type with possibly sub-1000hrs which wouldn’t even get him an ATPL (& captaincy) in the civil world. Then after 3 years & 600hrs he will be looking at captaincy himself & repeat.

As an aside what would the response in the civilian world be if they were truly aware of how little experience, total & currency-wise, some of our mil crews have as they fly in & out of big civil airports?

[superplum]

FYI, this "may" be of interest:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870673/20191106-FOI-00663-MFTS.pdf

:{

[Ken Scott]

So from graduating IOT to starting a FJ OCU is an average of 90 months. Add in IOT itself and the duration of the OCU means that from arrival to a FJ Sqn as a LCR junior pilot takes 100 months.

[beardy]

So from graduating IOT to starting a FJ OCU is an average of 90 months. Add in IOT itself and the duration of the OCU means that from arrival to a FJ Sqn as a LCR junior pilot takes 100 months.
Not 'is' but 'was' in the period leading up to the date of the letter, January 2019.

[Ken Scott]

Oh, that’s great, it’s back to the roughly 36 months it used to be then! All those holding students will be delighted to be rushed through their training.

[beardy]

Oh, that’s great, it’s back to the roughly 36 months it used to be then! All those holding students will be delighted to be rushed through their training.
Not necessarily, but you can't use old data and assume that it is still valid.

[Lima Juliet]

All the talk about formation makes me laugh - on previous ME courses the total amount of formation ME flying sorties was less than the number of fingers on my hand! They fly more formation on their EFT and ME lead in than they do on the ME course!

[deltahotel]

This is true. A quick look through my logbook shows a max of 3 formation trips with any individual. This was 97-2000. I have no idea what happened before or since.

[Bob Viking]

Aah, but it was far better in the good old days.

BV

Yes I am sh1t-stirring. Please don’t take this post too seriously.

[Ken Scott]

As I understand it there is no longer any form in EFT or ME lead-in, which is the point.

[flighthappens]

As I understand it there is no longer any form in EFT or ME lead-in, which is the point.

not sure if you want to be taught form on phenom judging by the previous phenom results anyway!!

[Ken Scott]

No, the proper place to teach it is during EFT - cheap ac, good cockpit visibility, easy handling etc.

[Lima Juliet]

As I understand it there is no longer any form in EFT or ME lead-in, which is the point.

Ken, you need better sources my dear chap. EFT is set for all ab initio students - either 57 Sqn (more in a second), 16 Sqn or on a UAS.

16Sqn/UAS on the Tutor - roughly 45-50 hours of flying to streaming. (The contract for Tutor runs out for 16 Sqn around 2022).
57 Sqn on the Prefect - roughly 25 hours live and some synthetic to streaming.

Those that stream Rotary go to Shawbury for Basic Rotary Trg (BRT) next.

Those that stream FJ continue on the Prefect/Tutor for Fast Jet Lead In before going to Basic Flying Trg (BFT) on the Texan at Valley.

Those that stream ME will continue on the Prefect/Tutor for either Multi-Engine Lead In (MELIN) if they are going on to Phenom Multi-Engine Pilot Trg (MEPT) or on the Multi-Engine Enrichment Course (MEEC) before they go to fly the Diamond DA42 on the Multi-Engine Out Source (ME(OS)) Course. The MEEC gives extra CRM, Low Level and Formation as ME(OS) does not provide that enrichment required for military ME pilots. The ME(OS) students also complete the Multi-Crew Coop (MCC) course as completed by all airline pilots in the civvy world too. The MELIN does the same low level and formation, but to a lesser extent as I understand, as there is a little bit more (as already mentioned) on the Phenom.

As I said before, there is very little ME formation or low level trg in the syllabus and there wasn’t much on King Air either. Flying formation in a big twin/four jet is a bit different anyway and the studes will be crewed with an experienced Captain on the front line anyway for at least the first tour.

[The...Bird]

So now over a year on from that report, can anyone comment on the current situation, holding numbers, holding time and training time? Or is it still just as bad...

[Bob Viking]

You can say whatever you like but you won’t be able to prevent many of us from thinking you’re a gloating, miserable old (possibly) git!

As for the kool aid remark, I'm afraid you’re a little wide of the mark. In case it escaped your attention, my ‘spare a thought’ remark was intended to consider the mental well being of the students in (or waiting to commence) training. Clearly you would rather ‘points score’ than to think about the young men and women in the system. Your choice.

My involvement with MFTS is solely with the Valley portion (and even then my current involvement can only be described as peripheral at best) and I have no knowledge of the other establishments. Therefore I am not drinking any kool aid. I am just remembering what it was like when I was in that position and how I might have felt.

BV

[DCThumb]

I’m getting cynical in my old age.....

When I did METS on the Jetstream in the early 90s there was no formation, no low level.

At some point (not sure if it was pre- or post-king air but probably aligned with the streaming direct from EFT) there was a syllabus review and low level and formation came in, the justification supposedly was that potential ME pilots needed formation skills for tanking and future Herc crews needed low level. I’ve spoken to former students and instructors and the level at which these skills were taught was way over the top and largely taught, as with most of the RAF ME training, as a single pilot skill.

it’s almost as if the instructors of the day were writing the syllabus that they wanted to teach, rather than what was needed (said the cynic)

Basic (common) skills should be taught at an early stage of training. ME training should teach the common skill sets specific to ME flying. Type training should teach how to apply basic skills to that type.

I haven’t seen the new syllabus, but understand from friends that is has been heavily driven by the ex-king air personalities. Instructional time would be far better teaching pilots multi pilot skills - how to perform effectively as PM or as PF in a 2 pilot flight deck for example, rather than formation and low level that will be flown in a completely different manner on the front line. Just my opinion!

[alfred_the_great]

I imagine there's going to be months of extra holds coming up for any current student.

[deltahotel]

DCT

Thanks for that and I’m sure there is a lot of truth in it. By the time I was a Jetstream QFI (97-2000) formation and LL were well embedded in the syllabus so that narrows that down a bit. LL was taught as a handling skill and LLnav very much a two person thing, which given the C130 was our biggest ‘customer’ by far makes sense.

I don’t have a sense of how much form had been taught prior to arrival on 45, but I guess we used it as a stepping stone on the small to medium to big. I don’t know how it is now but back then most of our ‘customers’ had AAR requirements so it seemed reasonable to do some at least.

Your comment on the syllabus certainly rings true and these two elements very much enhanced the enjoyment as a QFI of what was by then a really varied and enjoyable job. Is that a good reason for doing it? It seemed easy to rationalise it at the time!

Now looking backwards from my 20th year in commercial aviation it is clear that METS then was very much ‘one man band’ stuff with the exception being LLnav! But then it was back in 85 when I did my MEXO course. Plus ca change....

As an observer it will be interesting to see how the syllabus ends up.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Vortex - my very first student as a baby B2 QHI at SARTU (1989) decided he definitely didn't want SAR post Shawbury - his flying was fine over land but went to pieces inexplicably over the water. An overheard comment from one of his course mates led to the penny dropping for me - he had deliberately failed the sortie. After a firm debrief in which he was reminded that if he didn't pass SARTU, he didn't get his wings at all, suddenly he was good as gold again.

Baldeep - good post:ok:

I went through SARTU mid-90s, it had a number of problems (from a stude PoV anyway) but one not of its making was exactly what Crab said, most of the students just didn’t want to be there. There were 10 of us, one desperately wanted SAR, the rest desperately didn’t.
The desired end state was to pass, but without the dreaded SAR recommend, so there was most definitely a fair bit of not-doing-quite-as-well-as-perhaps-one-could going on.

That's for the frontenders, the crewmen were understandably far more keen.

[chopper2004]

While awaiting the Thsnkyou NHS Spitfire to return, and saw Catalina also take off and various other Spitfires ...I saw a nice Prefect circuit bashing and one touch and go at IWM (My photos below).

cheers


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/123dc277_07db_4545_8e21_f6d230e1b44c_a60ccf385637c376f60371d 0a74fd7c8cbe93d40.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/21dce649_2376_4113_9f40_901979807425_f4b2656a904769169de5200 b678d9bb13703f5d8.jpeg