Tiger at Pimpama

[spinex]

Bugger, RIP!

Plane crash Pimpama: reports one person killed | Gold Coast Bulletin (http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/gold-coast/plane-crash-pimpama-reports-one-person-killed/story-fnj94idh-1227690521307)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

VH-RTA ??

A sad event - especially at this time of the year...

Passenger said to be in his 50's suffered fatal injuries.
Pilot said to be 21 or so, taken to hospital with severe facial and leg injuries.
It was reported that the pilot made the '000' call for assistance.

Condolences to the passenger's family and friends.

[kaz3g]

VH UZB is the reported rego.

[ghyde]

Looks like UZB based on ABC photo

Man killed in Tiger Moth crash on Queensland's Gold Coast, pilot hospitalised - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-28/one-dead-in-light-plane-crash-on-gold-coast/7056524)

[BPA]

Reports from Recreational Flying http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/tiger-moth-crash-on-gold-coast.144318/page-2 the pilot was RC (known for flying around the world). He had recently completed his a Tiger endorsement (about 4 weeks ago).

[spinex]

BPA, the church of the half-baked requires registration to view posts in that section.

I was under the impression that Ryan had been flying the Tiger longer than that, anyhow he was recently appointed ops manager and pilot by Bennet Aviation, owners of the Gold Coast joyflight company.

Nasty business, as my wife commented, it's the kind of gift she would give me. (and no I'm not well insured!)

[PA39]

Conditions this morning would have required a very experienced DH82 pilot.

[tail wheel]

Looks like they have only been back in the air since last May, under new owners:

Tiger Moth back in the air after business grounded for 18 months in wake of crash | Gold Coast Bulletin (http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/lifestyle/tiger-moth-back-in-the-air-after-business-grounded-for-18-months-in-wake-of-crash/story-fnj94iqm-1227375367895)

Pilot and passenger named:

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/gold-coast/famous-young-pilot-hurt-in-fatal-plane-crash-at-pimpama/story-fnj94idh-1227690521307

[Dora-9]

PA39's comment is spot on - I wouldn't have liked to be flying a Tiger yesterday (not that I'm claiming to be highly experienced on them).

[spinex]

I see the deceased is described as a 58 year old bloke from the Grafton district, a paraglider, an adventurer and all round good bloke. Sadly it's not difficult to imagine the scenario where someone has driven 3 odd hours for his ride and tells you he doesn't mind it being rough. Ryan wouldn't be the first young pilot talked into flying when he shouldn't. Speculation obviously, but the scenario is as old as flying itself.

Sad all round, for the passenger's family as well as for Ryan and his family; according to the press reports he's fairly banged up. The Tigers are a welcome addition to the local aviation scene, but you have to wonder whether they'll bounce back from a second fatal in 2 years.

[Dora-9]

Spinex - there's no implied criticism intended in my comment, I well could understand how this could happen.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Is no one else thinking EFATO?

[spinex]

I think we're on the same page Dora-9, the perils of forum communication. My comment was meant to be general and prompted by what is being said in the press and elsewhere.

[Flying Binghi]

Is no one else thinking EFATO?

Hmmm... I'm thinking MUPPETS..:hmm:

The prang was a fatal. The prang will be investigated. We will then have a FACTUAL report to discuss.




.

[spinex]

Gee what kept you from sharing your wisdom fb? #14 whole posts to get to the inevitable 'wait for the report, don't speculate,' it never gets old.:oh:

Re efato - if that's what it was and from what I can remember of the layout there, the aircraft seems to have dropped in just short of some fairly substantial trees, there would have been some interesting turbulence and then wind shadow as he descended behind them. Despite what the Bulletin was saying, it seems they were found inverted and emergency services pulled her back over to get them out.

[mickjoebill]

Hmmm... I'm thinking MUPPETS..:hmm:

The prang was a fatal. The prang will be investigated. We will then have a FACTUAL report to discuss.
.

A lenghty aerial video on ABC, of the rescue, shows a significant response from emergency services.
But I couldn't see a fire hose deployed and on standby near the craft, perhaps indicative of a low risk of a post crash fire, given a trapped victim and a dozen rescue personnel very close to the wreck.


"Despite what the Bulletin was saying, it seems they were found inverted and emergency services pulled her back over to get them out."


With no apparent damage visible to the tail perhaps it wasnt fully inverted?

Mickjoebill

[OPSH24]

I remember that as Hempels old tiger. RIP Gary Turnbull, speedy recovery to Ryan Campbell and vale UVB. Tigers can be a handful in windy conditions.

[Squawk7700]

UVB (An ex Hempels Tiger) is tucked away in a hangar near Melbourne :-)

[PA39]

The CP should have called it. When young guns get under pressure the CP tucks him under his wing and calls the flight off. EVERYTHING must be assessed....everything!

[UnaMas]

A key part of the issue in my mind is even calling this guy a Young Gun, or any version of that.
I am sorry because I know a lot of you are riding on his bandwagon for whatever reason, but if you tell these young and inexperienced kids how great they are enough times, eventually they will believe it.

[Dash Balus]

UnaMas,

I can understand what you are saying but wonder if you are not being a touch tough, ....

Many of us have had the "young gun" blood in our veins at some stage... it takes some time to transition from the "Bold Pilot" to the "Old Pilot."

And really, in this case, it may not even be part of the equation!

As has been suggested , the Moth is not so forgiving, I know of two highly experienced RAAF pilots that crashed one...(sadly one did not survive), so lets just see this this as how Aviation can bite savagely, rather than labelling it as youthful exuberance.

Anyway, my sincerest commiserations to the "Adventurer" and his family.

I wish for a speedy recovery for the PIC, and hope he can continues in the career that is undoubtably his passion.

"THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE ........go many of us, etc, etc"

[The name is Porter]

Ryan is an honest young bloke, an extremely good public speaker & passionate aviator. I hope he's able to tell us one day what happened so that we can all learn a bit more. He'll have a lot to deal with (quite apart from his physical injuries), wouldn't wish that on anybody. Best to you mate, hope you come out of this for the better.

[Centaurus]

Any idea if that particular Tiger Moth had its leading edge auto slots either fixed closed or previously removed altogether? It is a cost saving measure used by some civilian operators. All RAAF Tiger Moths had operating auto slots which gave excellent pre-stall warning by the noise of them opening and shutting with a noticeable `clacking noise`

While there was only a few knots difference in stalling speeds slots locked or unlocked, it was part of pre-take off checks in RAAF Tiger Moths to have the auto slots unlocked. It is understood the Tiger Moth operated by the RAAF Museum and which crashed during practice engine failure shortly after take off had its auto slots either disabled or removed altogether, thus depriving the aircraft of an effective stall warning. :ugh:

[50 50]

Every aircraft has an effective stall warning. It's in your hand. When it's hauled back to your stomach your pretty close to a stall. Learn where the stall stick position is and you don't need any "clacking" as a reminder.

[prospector]

Every aircraft has an effective stall warning. It's in your hand. When it's hauled back to your stomach your pretty close to a stall. Learn where the stall stick position is and you don't need any "clacking" as a

If you believe that garbage, then the standard of aeronautical knowledge has declined badly in some quarters.

Splitting hairs a bit, but I was under the impression that the pieces of kit were called slats, and the the flow of air was directed through the slots formed, thus delaying the onset of turbulent flow over the upper wing surface.

[Old Fella]

Centaurus, photographs of the accident aircraft show the LE Slats in place. As to whether or not they were operational I cannot speculate.

[fujii]

3.14 Stick Position And The Stall
3.14.1 An important aspect of both normal and aerobatic flight is the relationship of the stick position to the angle of attack of a wing for a specific flap setting or centre of gravity, in particular at the stall. The fore and aft position of the control column determines the angle of the aircraft's wings to the airflow. For example, the stick positions for cruise, glide and the stall move progressively aft. Once the stick position for the stall has been determined (and remembered), it can be used as a measure of whether an aircraft's wing is stalled or not. If the stick is forward of the 'stalled stick position', the aircraft will always be in unstalled flight, regardless of aircraft attitude or airspeed.
3.14.2 Appreciation of this concept, and the ability to recognise and apply stick position to achieve CLMAX (that is the point just before a wing stalls) can increase awareness and enhance a pilot's confidence and aircraft handling at this critical phase of flight.

[On eyre]

Fuji I believe the CAAP is in error. It is true that the "stalled stick position" is dependent on flap setting and particularly C of G. So this gives rise to a multitude of so called "stalled stick positions" which in my opinion are not likely to be remembered - better to rely on the small range of the stall speed (under normal flight conditions) that can be readily determined, apply a prudent safety margin if you are so inclined, and fly the aircraft accordingly.

[Runaway Gun]

The SMALL range of stall speed?
But that SMALL range is huge if G is taken into account. Memorising a set speed or range and thinking you are safe if you exceed it is a most dangerous belief and practise.

[CAVOK92]

Fujii is very correct. It is all about stick position. There is a lot less change in the stick position compared to the stall speeds you might experience in a loop, MTOW, Empty, steep turn ect...

[Ultralights]

small range of stall speed? serious? you can stall at 1 IAS, and you can stall at VNE.. its all dependent on 1 thing, AOA, AOA is controlled by Pitch.. Pitch is controlled by the stick. simples.

as for what happened at Pimpama? :confused:

[Centaurus]

Splitting hairs a bit, but I was under the impression that the pieces of kit were called slats, and the the flow of air was directed through the slots formed

I see your point. However, reference to RAAF Publication No. 416, Pilot's Notes for Tiger Moth Aircraft and date February 1944, the List of Contents includes at paragraph 8, the word Automatic Slots.

In turn, this is amplified with a full description of Automatic Slots. e.g Sub Para (ii) "The operating lever should be near the rear-most position when the slots are locked. With the lever in the forward position the slots should be quite free."

There are other references to `Slots` as against `Slats` For example paragraph 23 under heading of Take Off states;- "The setting of the controls during the Drill of Vital Actions is as follows:-

1. Elevator trim is neutral (central position on quadrant)
2. Tighten throttle friction nut.
3. mixture control right back to fully rich position.
4. Fuel cock fully on, tank contents sufficient for flight.
5. Slots unlocked (lever fully forward)
etc etc

I must admit that `Slats` sounds more logical but I guess in 1944 the terminology was different.

[Pinky the pilot]

better to rely on the small range of the stall speed that can be readily determined, apply a prudent safety margin if you are so inclined, and fly the aircraft accordingly.

Agreed On eyre, and if I may add; And also to be aware of what are the indications of an approaching stall in the aircraft you are flying.:hmm:

[Squawk7700]

Ryan would have the utmost of respect for the stall... He owns and flies a Lancair if I am not mistaken....

[50 50]

Wow prospector. Garbage? Perhaps my standard of aeronautical knowledge does not compare with some of the sky gods but my standard of aerobatic flight increases with every competition and practice sortie. If you don't believe that garbage you have a very good chance of kissing the dirt.
I am not giving an opinion based on a theoretical knowledge. I stall an aircraft every single time I fly it purely because if it is not stalled, it won't spin. Guess where the stick is? Same place, every time. Muscle memeory is a powerful thing. The recovery? Move it forward an inch and unstall the wing.
Narrow stall speed ranges are only applicable in straight and level flight. If you are capable of using the entire flight envolope you can stall an aircraft at VNE. Not recommended but possible.

[prospector]

If you are capable of using the entire flight envolope you can stall an aircraft at VNE. Not recommended but possible.

When it's hauled back to your stomach your pretty close to a stall

At VNE???

[Ultralights]

yes it can be done at VNE, not recommended though..

[HarleyD]

Ahem, the thread is getting a bit drifty but 50 50 and UL I think you may mean Va not Vne, as it is very likely you will break something. Modern certification will restrict to a maximum operating speed Vmo that is in fact well below Vne.

A stall is defined as the point where the nose of the aircraft pitches uncontrollably down and cannot be corrected with normal input, elevator on the up stop. This may well happen at Vne as the wings will no longer be on the aircraft in most cases.

Hardly germane in this instance I suspect.

I have operated tigers is strong gusty winds, the biggest issue is lack of energy which can make things a bit tricky. With little forward speed, and a wind shear in the lee of a tree line, all you stall stick position means JS. There are no cards left to play, especially if engine was not happy. You have already stalled, without trying. Not saying that's the case here, just that it's the sort of thing that can catch someone out if the 60 year old engine fails or even partially fails.

Also not calling stall stick position BS either. It's good practice and information that will add to a prudent pilots pool of knowledge, but it's just a piece of the puzzle, not the whole picture. If you are 80 feet in the air with no GS and the IAS goes away you cAn put the stick anywhere you want, it will do nothing until you have accelerated to a speed sufficient to make the elevators become effective, and you may not have altitude sufficient to be able to convert your potential energy to kinetic. You have ( especially if the engine is stopped) little or no ability to lower the nose to attempt to accelerate. Gravity wins. Again.


HD

[plucka]

Totally agree with the 'stall position, stick position' concept.
In fact I think, if Angle of Attack instead of Pitch, was taught as the 'Primary' effect of the elevator, everyone would have a better understanding of the idea!

Only my humble opinion though.

[27/09]

50 50:I stall an aircraft every single time I fly it purely because if it is not stalled, it won't spin. Guess where the stick is? Same place, every time. I guess also every time you do this you're stalling at the same speed.

An aircraft can stall at any speed (or attitude). No doubt you can recall your Effects of Controls lesson - controls firm and responsive at high speed and sloppy and less responsive at low speed. It takes more elevator travel therefore stick travel to increase the angle of attack at low speed than it does it high speed. Therefore the stick cannot be in the same place for every stall.

Someone posted earlier about the conditions on the day. If I understood that correctly the aircraft was possible operating in quite turbulent air. Turbulent conditions can very rapidly change the relative air flow over the wing and the aircraft (or worse one wing) can be in a stalled condition without any change in stick position.

To categorically say stick position is always a good indicator of whether or not an aircraft is likely to stall (or is stalled) is being far too general in my opinion.

[rjtjrt]

.....I think, if Angle of Attack instead of Pitch, was taught as the 'Primary' effect of the elevator,......
This is an interesting thought, and combining that with the concept of stall stick position, it all makes more sense.

[50 50]

27/09 what you say is correct. However at high airspeeds from level flight when you increase the back pressure the aircraft doesn't immediately stall does it? It climbs until you run out of airspeed, or completes a loop. Continue increasing back pressure and the aircraft will continue to increase its angle of attack to the relative airflow until it stalls. Where? Around 16 degreesd angle of attack.
A dynamic stall can occour from any airspeed or attitude, how? Increase the angle of attack beyond the stalling AoA. Again around 16 degrees to relative airflow, depending on the aircraft.
Point being, there is only one critical angle of attack for each aircraft configuration, and it does not vary with airspeed. What controls AoA? Stick position.

[Ixixly]

How about we all agree that both arguments are two ends of the same thing? Just because I put my stick at one spot does not necessarily mean I am at the same AoA as the last time I put it there though it will likely get there eventually (Of course full back stick would probably be an indication that I'm likely to stall, I don't disagree there) and just because my airspeed is low does not necessarily mean I am definitely about to stall, IMHO it comes down to knowing your Aircraft and listening to it what it's telling you, simply using JUST your Airspeed OR Control Column/Yoke/Stick to tell you whether you're about to stall would be ignorant of the whole picture.

In the end a man has lost his life and another young man has had his permanently scarred, this particular willy measuring argument is really a moot point without know what has actually happened which I don't think anyone but Ryan will be able to tell us, if he hasn't suffered some kind of memory loss.

I have no problem with speculation, but what in the picture or evidence so far suggests that a stall was the cause anyway? I think we've already established from others that the Aircraft did infact come to rest in the position most of the photos show as opposed to inverted as some have heard so it seems to be a incorrect suggestion now anyway.

We do know there were blustery conditions, we do know the Tiger Moth can be a handful in such conditions, perhaps he just got plain ol' fashioned unlucky and mother nature took over. It happens as I'm sure quite a few of us on here have first hand knowledge of, sometimes you're just the poor bloke holding controls when it happens and from then on you're just along for the ride.

[Propjet88]

Ladies and Gents,

I don't believe it is appropriate to engage in public discussions about this accident (or any other) before the facts are known. However, the "absolute" advice on stalling being given in this thread concerns me and needs rebuttal.

Stick position may be useful as a cue as to approaching stall – but no more than a cue. Just as IAS, airflow noise, ineffective (“sloppy”) controls, high nose attitude and all the other “cues” that are taught in basic stalling exercises are just cues that may assist - but are not always valid.

Sorry, but the stick position at stall will vary with C of G, acceleration and deceleration rates, flap position, thrust (power) and, in some aircraft, trim position.

In a pure aerobatic aircraft, where aeros are usually performed at a (more or less) fixed fuel load with a given pilot weight and no baggage / freight (fixed C of G), clean aircraft and a set trim position (not normal to trim into aerobatic manoeuvres) the “fixed stall stick position” may be valid. However, for many other cases experienced every day in GA (even a simple C172 with 1 POB versus 3 – 4 POB) the fixed stick position premise is not valid and, if taken as gospel, can be dangerously misleading.

It is just as incorrect to say that an aircraft will always stall at the same stick position as it is to say it will always stall at the same IAS. Both are true for any given set of variables. Change the variables and both are quite wrong.

Stick position is just a cue.

Fly Safe PJ

[Ultralights]

simple solution, go and practice stalling yourselves... (when was the last time you did that truthfully?) and try it a differing weights, load factors, CoG positions, and come back and tell us what you find..


as for Ryan, im sure he will tell us himself what happened via the investigation. at this point there are to many variables at the time of the incident to come up with a reasonably close assumption of what might have happened.

[djpil]

simple solution, go and practice stalling yourselves... (when was the last time you did that truthfully?) and try it a differing weights, load factors, CoG positions, and come back and tell us what you find.. Regularly!

A mid-CG position of about 24.5% MAC is the first configuration. For reference, cruise at 140 kts, the stick position was 290 mm aft of the instrument panel. At full throttle the stall stick position was 320 mm aft of the instrument panel. At idle it was 360 mm.

For the next flight CG now at about 27.5% MAC. Stick position at 140 kts still at about 290 mm. Stall stick position is about 295 mm at idle.

(Incidentally, in an inverted stall the stick position was 215 mm at idle.)

For one particular Lancair 360 there was a difference in stick position at the stall of about 50 mm between 10 deg flap and 30 deg flap. Not a lot of difference at all in stick position between stall and a much higher speed at the same flap setting.

Try a S&L power off stall in a Decathlon then do a loop and see that the stall stick position is much further aft with full throttle at double that stall speed with more than 4 G. As Propjet88 says, it is a different matter in a more rigid airframe and control system such as the Pitts.

[actus reus]

Without going too over the top with aerodynamic theory, DJPTL is on the mark.
During a 'certification stall', maintenance of height is irrelevant as the procedure requires a loss of airspeed of one knot per second. You are looking for the 'g break' as there is no definitive definition of what a 'stall' actually is.
For civilian aircraft, the one g stall speed is essential for further performance calculations. A 'handling stall' as practiced by most flying schools, involves 'minimum height loss'.
These manoeuvres are two different beasts.
CG position, longitudinal static and longitudinal dynamic stability are significant factors.
It is not possible for example, to stall some Jabiru models two up with a significant fuel load.
For the DH 82, it is possible to be in level flight, unstalled, with zero IAS and full back stick. It won't stay there, but you can get it there.
Stick position? Muscle memory? Not very reliable indications.
In fact, as DJPTL alluded to, the difference in power on versus power off stick position is also reflected in the measurable (with the right instrumentation in complex aerodynamic configurations) difference in these speeds and the difference should not be more than .5 of a KIAS (from memory).
For all the clues that should be obvious to the pilot to indicate the approach of a stall, stick position sits 'well back' in the queue.
Excuse the pun.

[27/09]

50 50:However at high airspeeds from level flight when you increase the back pressure the aircraft doesn't immediately stall does it? Tell me what happens in a Snap Roll. Is there not rapid application of up elevator to cause a high speed stall?


50 50:It climbs until you run out of airspeed, or completes a loop.

Not necessarily so.. See above

[Toruk Macto]

Know your aircraft seems to be consensus and I'm sure he did , condolences to the deseased family and speedy recovery to the pilot .
Waiting for report

[Subversive1]

Sad for the family of the pax. Ryan is likely to have a long recovery, physically and mentally. I wish him the best.

I wonder why he is doing this job in the first place, doesn't he want to fly buses? I'm surprised he's not already with Q'Link or similar.

[50 50]

If you attempt to snap roll an aircraft from high speeds two things will happen. It will snap......it may roll. Snap rolls are usually conducted at relatively low air speeds and can be negative snaps with a rapid forward movement of controls. However the application of full rudder prevents the aircraft looping.
High speed snap rolls in something like a decathlon will result in a compression fracture of the leading edge near the wing root. You can attempt to pass it off as hanger rash but nobody will believe you.

[Centaurus]

However the application of full rudder prevents the aircraft looping

As a former RAAF QFI on Wirraways I can assure you that rudder was never applied as part of the snap-roll exercise. The aircraft was flown at 120 knots in level flight then full back stick was harshly applied. The Wirraway had an 8G wing. When this control forced was applied, the aircraft did not climb but merely proceeded in level flight albeit violently flick-rolling. It was an unpleasant manoeuvre, but a valuable training exercise to prepare pilots for the results of ham fisted control movements during a loop or a too harsh pull out from a dive. Been-there-done-that, with many RAAF trainee pilots.:ok:

[VNE220]

the application of full rudder prevents the aircraft looping.


The aircraft may only need be out of balance to snap roll.

[djpil]

High speed snap rolls in something like a decathlon will result in a compression fracture of the leading edge near the wing root. You can attempt to pass it off as hanger rash but nobody will believe you.I really don't believe any of that. First of all, the leading edge of something like a Decathlon is Al sheet which does not suffer compression fractures. The old wooden spars (front and rear) certainly do suffer from compression cracks and when the AD was issued: Comment Issue No. 2 states 'the FAA has determined that wing damage incidents are the major cause of compression cracks and other spar damage in low horsepower and lightweight airplanes.. therefore a one-time inspection is acceptable...' but give no indication of in-flight causes in any of the affected fleet, nor a rationale for the differentiation.Nil evidence of in-flight loadings causing compression fractures but plenty of evidence that in-flight loadings can cause other wing damage. Even the newer airplanes with metal spars suffer damage as a result of snap rolls which is why few owners permit them.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
I am advised that this aircraft was in Limited Category, and therefor administered by Australian Warbirds Association Ltd, and the first fatal accident since AWAL assumed such responsibilities from CASA.

That, and the fact that, in Queensland, an aircraft is a vehicle for the purposes of the Queenland Criminal Code, will be additional complications for the somewhat limited experience PIC of the aircraft.

Tootle pip!!

[peterc005]

I thought AWAL had responsibility for at least other DH82 fatal accident in Queensland, the one caused by the spar mounting bolt that that failed after it's thread cut rather than rolled?

[50 50]

djpil, I am sure there is a very good reason you don't allow snap rolls in your own Decathlon. The one I am referring to was "Displayed" at very low level at YNRM in the not too distant past with the above mentioned result. No external markings would indicate no impact and a leading edge with the structural integrity of a soggy violet crumble indicates damage.
VNE220, a full rudder imput would certainly put the aircraft out of balance.

[djpil]

Nope!
Compression fractures are only applicable to wood structures i.e the wing spars. It was the trailing edge that failed not the leading edge. The trailing edge is a very light sheet metal V shaped strip. It failed because the wing rib had failed.

[50 50]

Fair enough, forgive my wine sodden memory. Either way, not ideal.

[threegreensconfirmed]

You guys should all go out and fly all of your tiger moths and then become air crash investigators.

[50 50]

Can't fly Tiger Moths, people keep crashing them.

[tail wheel]

Time for a new thread when more substantial evidence becomes available. :=