Indonesian E195 out of RWY

[JanetFlight]

Welll...I start to think we have some real problems on those places...

http://s10.postimg.org/c45gpwv55/Kalstar_incid_E195_pk_kdc_kupang_800px_750x400.jpg

http://avherald.com/h?article=49124baa&opt=0

[fox niner]

200 meters overrun. Rediculous. I wonder what their speed was at touchdown. (Or their mach number)

[enola-gay]

The picture is a bit blurred but it looks like the flaps were not extended?

[White Knight]

I start to think we have some real problems on those places...

Only just starting to think that?:hmm::rolleyes:

[wanabee777]

I suppose it's to be assumed that the runway is ungrooved.

[Massey058]

I may be mistaken but I think all are Indonesia.

[wanabee777]

How long is the runway?

[Massey058]

2500m, 60m stopway on 07, nothing on 25. Visibility was 500m at the time of the accident.

[wanabee777]

The aircraft reportedly touched down about half way down the runway...

ASN Aircraft accident Embraer ERJ-195LR (ERJ-190-200LR) PK-KDC Kupang-El Tari Airport (KOE) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20151221-0)

Pretty much explains the final outcome.

[Doors to Automatic]

I suggested in a very tongue-in-cheek way on another thread that all runways in this region should be lengthened to 12,000ft with TDZ lightning that is always on - green for the first 6000ft, then yellow for 3000ft
and finally red. Mandatory go-around if touchdown not achieved in green. I don't think this is tongue in cheek any more!! :p

[DirtyProp]

Another brilliant solution - as suggested by an "aviation consultant" on Accident: Kalstar E195 at Kupang on Dec 21st 2015, overran runway on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=49124baa&opt=0) is to have all planes land uphill:
"To prevent runway overruns, build runways on an incline. Landing uphill will slow down a landing plane right quick, no more runway overruns."
By golly! Why didn't I think of that?

[ExDubai]

Hmm, just seen a carrier docu. What about a tailhook and a cable system? :E

[wanabee777]

General rule of thumb is to touchdown no later than the first 1/3 of the runway or 3000 ft, whichever is less.

Standing water with a tailwind not withstanding.

[3Greens]

Rule of thumb to land on first third of the runway? I'm afraid not old chap, the rule (of thumb)is to land in the touchdown zone and nowhere else. To do so invalidates the landing performance you have calculated. Those sorts of rules of thumb are fine for GA, but have no place In commercial environments on medium/heavy/super, jet ops.

[training wheels]

Video of the flight crew leaving the aircraft ..

rsMQW4tjVkM

[wanabee777]

Maybe I should rephrase it.

Rule of thumb.

If you haven't touched down by the first third of the runway or 3000 ft (whichever is less), then go around.

[Doors to Automatic]

@ D to A; the runway lights are coded red and white for the last 900m - I assume this is the same in Indonesia??

I am aware of these, but it seems Indonesian pilots are not :p

I am suggesting a more "in your face" system - i.e. the two sets of three lights every 30m or so that you see in the TDZ between the centreline and the two sides of the runway - turned up bright and going green, yellow and red, signifying "ok", "you really need to be touching down" and "GO AROUND! No IFS or BUTS!!" :p

Edit: My first post should have read green for the first 3000 ft, not 6000ft.

So it would be Green, 3000ft, Yellow 3000ft and finally red 6000ft. In therory no landing aircraft should be left with less than 6000ft of runway. Then you have got to get it into their heads that Flap 5 and VREF of 220kts in a 737 is not the best configuration for landing!

[Ambient Sheep]

Another brilliant solution - as suggested by an "aviation consultant" on Accident: Kalstar E195 at Kupang on Dec 21st 2015, overran runway on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=49124baa&opt=0) is to have all planes land uphill:
"To prevent runway overruns, build runways on an incline. Landing uphill will slow down a landing plane right quick, no more runway overruns."
By golly! Why didn't I think of that?

The same person then goes onto suggest an even more brilliant idea:

Alternatively, construct concrete strips circling the globe, one for each line of longitude. Because the length of these runways is infinite, no more overruns, ever; but it would be rather expensive.The guy's a genius... at trolling. :-)

[Alan Biles]

"Maybe I should rephrase it.

Rule of thumb.

If you haven't touched down by the first third of the runway or 3000 ft (whichever is less), then go around".

Great rule of thumb but unfortunately to go around (or even bimble around for 10 minutes while the weather improves) is a serious loss of face for the majority of Indonesian pilots (IMHO of course). I flew extensively as SLF in Indonesia 30-odd years ago, mainly on Garuda but occasionally on the rather worryingly named SMAC airways and hot approaches and landings were the norm. I lost track of the number of times we floated down the runway watching the distance bars go by as the teenagers in the cockpit adjusted their sunglasses and fiddled with their racing driver style string-backed gloves. Eventually we'd hit the ground and find ourselves hanging in the straps as they desperately tried to stop it before we went off the end.

Until the 'face' thing is overcome or 'educated out' accidents such as this one, fortunately non-fatal in this case, will continue to occur.

[mach2.6]

I like ab's long-term solution, goes something like this:
Captain: "Hal, I am ready to land, now."
Hal: "Where, Captain?"
Captain: "At that nice airport in front of us, you know, out there off the nose."
Hal: "OK, Captain, just have another cup of coffee, and I will advise you when we are at the gate."
Captain: "OK, Hal."

[PersonFromPorlock]

"To prevent runway overruns, build runways on an incline. Landing uphill will slow down a landing plane right quick, no more runway overruns."
By golly! Why didn't I think of that?

Banked, circular runways have been proposed several times. Infinite overrun and a smaller airfield footprint, to boot.

[wanabee777]

EMAS......

[Hotel Tango]

....perhaps a simpler solution would be better training!

[sierra5913]

perhaps a simpler solution would be better training!

Wont matter. Why do people offer up western solutions? EMAS, training, lol.

The countries infrastructure, as it is, is unsuitable for its landscape. Thats not going to change. Their mentality is not going to change. Nothing is going to change. How many overruns now? Thats OK, govt deflects the problem onto the operator.

Why are these guys Cat 1?.....Oh, a 60 jet order is in the offing.

Until the rest of the world keeps letting these guys off the hook we are as much to blame. They have geostrategic political leverage hence nothing will get done.

[wanabee777]

Forget the EMAS then.

Place a redneck, runaway truck, gravel bed on each end of the runway.

[dr dre]

How about this solution:

CAPTAIN:
Well there's lightning over the field, heavy rain showers, a 15kt tailwind and a short runway but hell I'm going to land, bugger holding.
FO:
Yes Captain, absolutely Captain, everything you say is correct Captain
NEWLY HIRED EXPAT CHECK PILOT SITTING ON THE JUMPSEAT OBSERVING:
FFS GO Around! And when we land your being pulled off line for retraining, if you do it again it's a demotion. And we'll be letting your peers know about it too! And for yourself young lad, grow some balls and tell these idiots to go around. Now that we've take over the management of the airline you won't be punished for speaking up.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

I was going to cut them some slack for sending their nav bags down the slide but will they be needing them again?

[dr dre]

I was going to cut them some slack for sending their nav bags down the slide but will they be needing them again?

Only if they're management pilots or friends of management pilots or if they hand over enough $$ to management

[ClintonBaptiste]

Just as an extra bit of info, as Devil's advocate I have actually flown into Kupang. The last time being in July this year.

The VOR approaches to both runways leave you high and quite close and not particularly well aligned. Plus the state of the runway is questionable - I don't think the rubber has ever been removed from the surface and it is ungrooved and uneven. When in rains - it really rains! I haven't seen weather like it. With these added factors - it does make it a bit of a pig from time to time.

Don't get me wrong - the aviation industry in Indonesia is in a terrible state - I personally saw many things I would never wish to see again in aviation.

Obviously the crew shld have gone around - but TII (This is Indonesia!)

Earlier this year a new VOR was positioned about 0.5 NM from the threshold yet no new approach charts were published (Jeppesen didn't actually update any charts for months after). Our charts arrived from the tower on a badly printed copy of a copy. It just happened to be one of the worst days of weather on that day too - Tower were asking airlines if they had the new charts, which they blatantly didn't! They didn't even have the names of the intersections! Yet aircraft after aircraft were firing approaches.

As dangerous as it was flying there - it was great fun! The majority of the locals are sincere, genuine people and I can highly recommend it. Unfortunately the country is shooting itself in the foot and self-destructing - not just in aviation, but palm oil, minerals - you name it! This could be one of the most incredible places on Earth, but it's too corrupt and will never change!

[Heathrow Harry]

"They have geostrategic political leverage hence nothing will get done"

Actually they have little political leverage with anyone but they do have a bloody big country which is all islands so to get around they HAVE to use aircraft . The bill for upgrading every airport instantly would be mind boggling - imagine the USA if the interstate road network disapeard - you'd HAVE to fly everywhere

And if you think going by air is risky in Indonesia just don't even Google PELNI - the state shipping line - if you want to sleep at nights.....