Qantas 787 recruitment for cadetship

[Qantas93super]

Anyone know when QF's 787 recruitment for cadetships will come about?

Cheers in advance

[The Green Goblin]

How's it going fly boat north :)

[dr dre]

FBN jokes aside, the rumours are of QF recruiting restarting by the end of the year. Whether this is through cadetships, or direct entry or another method isn't known, but several ranks in some fleets are apparently short now, so recruitment could be onto non-787 fleets in the near future.
I've also seen those "QF approved Year 12 Maths" bridging courses being advertised recently, some people must have an idea of what's about to come ;)
I'd say the recent link up between UNSW and Qlink would give a big hint on how the group's recruitment strategy might be in the future

[smiling monkey]

FBN jokes aside, the rumours are of QF recruiting restarting by the end of the year.

Would those rumours be for end of this year or next? The QF SO thread rumoured recruitment to begin end of 2016.

[maggot]

Getting warmer.......

[dr dre]

Would those rumours be for end of this year or next? The QF SO thread rumoured recruitment to begin end of 2016.

Yeah sorry, end of 2016/ start of 2017 ish

[Australopithecus]

Expect a lot of churn in 330 training to underpin the migration to the 787 that will occur sometime around November 2016*.So there may be some internal shuffling starting a few months prior...perhaps as early as June-July. That process should trim any remaining surplus on the 737 and A380.

I think 787 S/O training courses might start 11-13 months from now, depending on sim schedules and projected delivery dates. Qantas could of course get the other ranks all done first and only take on S/Os later in 2016. (On edit: that should have been "later in 2017")

My colleagues all have horror stories about the chaotic nature of the recruiting process in boom years, so candidates probably should not have high expectations about something the airline has forgotten how to do.

I would be really surprised if cadetships are in the cards...surely there is a deep pool of experienced applicants with jet or turbo-prop time who can see the age demographics at Qantas and do maths?

* the 787 is senior to the 330, hence most 787 Capt and F/O slots will be from current 330 pilots. The first guess I heard was around 75%.

[Keg]

The intro of the 787 keeps being referred to by AJ and various media as 'late 2017'. If you call that any time from September onward I don't reckon we'll recruit S/Os for the 787 until about May-Jul 2017 at the earliest.

However, it wouldn't surprise me if we start recruiting earlier than that. We still have 50 or so pilots to retire before that point and as you point out Australopithecus, significant churn to go through prior to the intro of the 787 as well.

The scuttle butt I've heard is that most A330 pilots have a bid in. Whether the 75% refers to the amount of 787 slots that will go to A330 pilots in the first year or that 75% of A330 pilots have a bid in for the 787 is something I've not been able to nail down. I've also heard that allocations has done a dummy run on the 787 allocation but not been able to nail down if that's the first year, second year, 2016/17 training year, etc.

Either way, nice to see light at the end of the tunnel for a change.

[Going Boeing]

My scuttle butt is in line with Keg's. The delivery schedule is for 3 B787-9's in late 2107 with 5+ deliveries in 2018. I've heard that recruitment will start mid 2016, mainly due to the shortages on the B747 & A330 fleets & these shortages won't be fully filled by those returning from LWOP.

The recruiting figure is 200+ but I don't know how long that figure is spread over.

[Arewegettingjets]

I wouldn't rubbish the idea of a QF Cadetship starting up again just because there are "good applicants" from regional airlines or elsewhere.
The QF Cadetship was a strong 50+ year program that churned out high quality pilots from an ab-initio position thru to MECIR and placement. It still has its place, a Cadetship hasn't been run since 2010 so for the last 6 years where have the high calibre applicants been going?
A real shame IMO! We should be nurturing young aviators and encourage striving for excellence in our profession and the sooner that program restarts the better.

[Troo believer]

There is a big push to recruit directly from Qlink Dash pilots. Why on earth should the group lose a group of very well trained muti crew pilots to foreign carriers. I heard 70 odd F/Os bailed this year to greener/sandier pastures. Cadets would be the last group to be recruited considering the experience levels within regionals/GA and of course the military. Jetstar pilots Might also consider QF.
There is no surplus on the 737. No surplus on the A330. So there will be a lot of churn and I'm hearing bypass could be a way out of short term bottle necks. Either way the training section will be very busy soon with those returning from LWOP and a new aircraft intro.
Also hearing that there maybe 17 more commands for the Jumbo.

[FFRATS]

What about the training for the 8ish B787-800 that are going to be repainted with Red tails next year......:eek:

This is a Rumour forum and that's the current one with some in the know. Then again it could be a Wet Lease agreement. :rolleyes:

FFRATS

[Transition Layer]

Yep, I'd have to agree that there's not a surplus on the 737. Numbers seem about right except when they let too many people go on leave over Christmas and can't crew flights 😁

As for the 787 rumour I've heard anywhere between 1 and 4 current JQ 788s to be repainted in QF colours for domestic flying. As for a wet lease - hah! It didn't happen when the stolen generation went to JQ, so why should it happen now the shoe's on the other foot?

[smiling monkey]

There is a big push to recruit directly from Qlink Dash pilots. Why on earth should the group lose a group of very well trained muti crew pilots to foreign carriers. I heard 70 odd F/Os bailed this year to greener/sandier pastures.

Well, that explains why Qlink has just sent out invitations to candidates for stage 2 psych tests. Didn't expect that to happen so early. Are they expecting an exodus of pilots to mainline?

[HappyBandit]

Smiling Monkey

Still expecting movement to CX and a number (All skippers so far I believe) interviewed with EK. But I dare say you are correct in assuming quiet a few will look at mainline when they start recruitment.

[Iron Bar]

"What about the training for the 8ish B787-800 that are going to be repainted with Red tails next year......"

Nice rumor, but I think mostly wishful thinking. However, group policy right route right aircraft and QF domestic could do with some bigger planes right now.


There seem to be some very "cancelable" JQ 787 sectors. CS/CG Japan, ML WSSS, some of the HNL and China charters that JQ could do without.

JQ showing little interest in any real training (esp to replace the number of 320 cpts recently left) while rostering at max hours and cancelling flights due to lack of crew. Perhaps there is a surplus on the horizon?

I still think it's unlikely though.

[Fuel-Off]

Well, that explains why Qlink has just sent out invitations to candidates for stage 2 psych tests. Didn't expect that to happen so early. Are they expecting an exodus of pilots to mainline?

In order to stem the blood letting of crews to other group entities apparently rumour has it that the beloved CP has asked Jetstar and mainline NOT to hire QLink crews as that would leave them too short (we're very low on FOs as it is). So call me a pessimist but if the rumour holds true I wouldn't be holding my breath for any movement from QLink to another entity any time soon.

This gentleman's agreement apparently doesn't apply to cadets where the mainline CP has nicely told our CP 'we're taking the cadets whether you like it or not.'

Fuel-Off :ok:

[0tto]

This gentleman's agreement apparently doesn't apply to cadets where the mainline CP has nicely told our CP 'we're taking the cadets whether you like it or not.'

Fuel-Off :ok:

This has had happened in the past when Jetstar was recruiting heavily. But you know what, it'll just piss off the remainig pilot body who wants a career progression and leave for other carriers. The current management team haven't done themselves any favour by driving the regional lifestyle six feet under.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the cadets but there are plenty of good operators who have contributed to the Qantas group way before the cadets learn to drive, let alone fly. Yet, your career is hamstrung by
management because you work in the group.

The "gentlemen agreement" really pisses me off.

[Australopithecus]

...are self defeating. QF goes to great lengths to train guys on the regional networks, gives them lots of great experience in a demanding environment, then sends them off to crew competitor's fleets. :ugh:

Experienced pilots are not the abundant commodity they once were, and providing a clear career progression path would ensure that the group retained most of its people. To do otherwise is a cynical exercise that is designed solely to benefit the "gentlemen" concerned.

Allowing regional guys an entry into mainline does not lengthen the training ladder: If a pilot goes to CX instead of inhouse promotion he still has to be replaced.

If I was a CP who treated people like chattel I would expect to get screwed by the guys often and thoroughly.

[Jetsbest]

Allowing regional guys an entry into mainline does not lengthen the training ladder

but...

... if the only way into QF was via the regionals I suspect that many other well-qualified pilots would not bother applying to QF in the first place. Why would QF make it easier for the regionals to be sapped of pilots if it simply shrinks the potential recruitment pool in other ways?

Perhaps there is a bit of "method to their madness"?

Just sayin'...:O

[neville_nobody]

In reality gentleman's agreements are a load of BS anyway. As if QF will delay courses or park aeroplanes so they don't recruit some arbitrary number of Eastern pilots.

If QF (or any airline for that matter) REALLY wanted to hire you they will, end of story.

Additional to that has anyone actually tested this theory? ie Worked for a QF regional never got called, then changed employers and QF magically calls them a week later? Or is it just people who would never get in anyway somehow justifying why they can't get into QF Mainline?

[crosscutter]

^^^^^^^!!!!!

I've heard of start dates adjusted a month or so to help out in extreme circumstances.

As for exclusions et al..... Get real

[busdriver007]

Apart from a ancient divide and conquer strategy there is no sense or reason to multiple Airlines and AOCs in QF that ultimately will be examined as a huge waste of money. American Airlines and American Eagle finally united on one Seniority List as the US began to experience a huge pilot shortage and this process provides a secure supply line of pilots. American(through American Eagle) are recruiting at a rate of 80 a month and United are recruiting at 100 a month. Cathay are recruiting at a rate of 60 a month and many of these pilots are coming from the Regionals. Someone will have to swallow their pride and admit they got it terribly wrong, my guess is no-one will admit to this *&%$&up!

[Qantas93super]

I've also seen those "QF approved Year 12 Maths" bridging courses being advertised recently, some people must have an idea of what's about to come ;)



Could you shed some more light on the "Year 12 maths bridging courses" please?

[Qantas93super]

So if 330 pilots get migrated into the 78, will there be more spots open for the 330?

[SixDemonBag]

So if 330 pilots get migrated into the 78, will there be more spots open for the 330?

Obviously.

Capt 330 slots then filled by Senior FO's, FO position filled by senior SO's. Junior SO's become senior SO's. New pilots needed to fill the void.

I agree with a previous post; Initial new hires (end of the year?) to probably start on the -400/330. Next year, 787 SO courses. Plenty of movement on the 330 (considering the above). Rumours of a few command and FO slots on the -400 because of incompetent resource planning.

Let's face it. It's the most upbeat the pilot community if QF has been for 8 years now. Must be time for GFC II.

[TOGA744]

330 Capt slots filled by 737 Capts. Question is will there be enough SO's who would be willing to take the pay cut to 737 FO?

[howyoulikethat]

There appears to be an abundance of JQ 787 pilots at the moment with more being trained as we speak.......I wonder?

[CurtainTwitcher]

There appears to be an abundance of JQ 787 pilots at the moment with more being trained as we speak.......I wonder?
because of incompetent resource planning.
Nuff said!


Question is will there be enough SO's who would be willing to take the pay cut to 737 FO?
Direct entry into the RHS at least for ADL & PER bases would have to be in the realm of possibility.

[maggot]

More likely would be 737 PER assigned to most jnr

[Keg]

Can they assign to 737 F/O? Direct entry 737 F/O PER?

[bdcer]

Is there a surplus on SOs at the moment? Or has the flying picked up?

[CurtainTwitcher]

I don't believe that any long haul pilot can be assigned to the B737. However, if a new joiner is offered and accepts a B737 FO slot on day 1, as the most senior bidder, then problem solved. This would be attractive comparing the B787 SO & B737 FO rates.
This represents the mechanics of a "direct entry to B737".

[Keg]

Thanks curtaintwitcher, that was my reading of it as well.

No surplus S/Os in the current flying plan bdcer. Still a few surplus F/Os on one fleet but that's it. Flying has picked up.

[pig dog]

Are you guys for real, yeah sure some of the senior SO's who fly only overtime sectors are making a killing, but the 737 pay scale is nowhere near as bad as it was a decade ago, to the degree that in the last 12 months there would not have been much pay differential between a 737 and 330 FO.

I doubt if any 330 or 787 SO would come anywhere near a 737 FO, particularly now the company appears to be focusing efforts towards mainline and there's a good chance of a few bonuses being paid!

If the 747 and 380 route structure changes with the introduction of the 787 meaning less overtime, many SO's will be facing pay drops on those fleets also.

The real factor for most deciding on a move to the 737 will be their work ethic and if they want to work in a busy, intense environment for career their development.

[bdcer]

So are any 737FOs cracking $200k?

[maggot]

The real factor for most deciding on a move to the 737 will be their work ethic and if they want to work in a busy, intense environment for career their development.

They used to give some effort in justifying not taking it. these days its more '**** working that hard for **** coin'.

[ExtraShot]

Direct entry into the RHS at least for ADL & PER bases would have to be in the realm of possibility

Hmmm. At last look I thought the 737 flying was sitting at about 65-70 hours per roster? I could be wrong but I thought that was pretty much right for establishment. That is of course until a few promotions from short haul to long haul happen.

As far as S/O's not wanting the upgrade, I can assure you all there are certainly a number of Long Haul S/O's (particularly in the bottom 50-100) who would like the career insurance of a window seat, and who have never been senior enough to have a bite of the cherry, yes, even in ADL or PER (lest they had gone to JQ, where there are now a number of LWOP guys who'd like to come back to QF asap as well).

It is indeed true that most S/O's on the A330 would no longer see too much of a pay cut at all going to the 73 provided the hours stay around 70 odd per month, give or take. Here's hoping after ZERO new training slots last year, that April brings good news for everyone who needs/wants it.


There appears to be an abundance of JQ 787 pilots at the moment with more being trained as we speak.......I wonder?

Unlikely.

:} Supposedly JQ have stuffed their numbers as well, to the extent that the rostering of East Coast A320 Flying is becoming a bit of a headache. After no real recruiting for the past couple of years (and at the same time having a number of guys pulling the pin on LWOP, gone to EK, or greener pastures in China), the East Coast narrow body fleet have been on max hours flown for a number of months now. They are scrambling to get 50 or so remaining Cadets on line and to start the recruitment machine again.

Apparently until they are on line, JQ are so short there are 20 odd A320 Commands being withheld because they can't spare any F/Os off the A320 fleet that would fill the Commands and/or residuals onto the 787! :ugh:

[CurtainTwitcher]

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the possible massive training wave in the future, that was implied by my comments about the day 1 direct entry scenario. As I also stated, there will be a large differential between B787 SO & B737 FO take home income, we are talking only about B787 SO's.

I believe most B737 FO's will take whatever seat they can get in Long Haul. Those likely to stay will do so as they perceive that they are senior enough for the LHS. Replacing the B737 FO's will be a major problem. If, and I stress if, things proceed on the scale some optimists anticipate, every current SO will have the seniority for the RHS, and still leave a large hole to fill.

Rotating seniority in LH would just be icing on the cake for them. Years of sh!te rostering has focused the collective mind on taking the first available exit.

[pig dog]

bdcer So are any 737FOs cracking $200k?

Easily mate. Any 4th year FO flying the roster as published, not chasing any hours should comfortably do it. A good bonus in September certainly helped but with load factors high, fuel price low, capacity wars over there's no reason bonuses won't continue for the foreseeable future.

[bdcer]

Pig Dog, that's good to hear. Especially seeing that the 73 is the workhorse of Q & not often recognised for its contribution.

[fringhtok]

I'm seriously wondering why there would be a large number of training slots in April, or imminent recruiting? I understand an extra 747 staying and the over 65 issue might mean a few extra slots but what else? Aren't there around a hundred coming off LWOP in the next year to eighteen months? Barring a retirement surge, I would think training and hiring are a long way off.

[CaptCloudbuster]

From our EBA7

Annual salary FO Yr4. $123 948.63 based on 53:24hrs min guaranteed each 28 days.

$178 per hr each additional hr above min. Average around 70 hrs per 28 days.

At risk Company incentive payment ( as a guide add $3000pa )


Therefore $125K plus $38K plus $3K = $166 000 pa average

[CurtainTwitcher]

Could it be that some figures are conflating flight pay vs flight pay + DTA + superannuation? Further complicating things, I believe some super divisions add company contributions to the gross pay, some don't, hence the difference. An apples with apples comparison is needed.

[maggot]

^^^ absolutely the case. The varying divs of super confound it even more, 6 in particular it seems can be a little inflationary

[cloudsurfng]

Taxable gross as at 27/12 including the bonus is 118k

4 year pay, don't chase flying. Expecting about 207 excluding super, but including dta.

[A320 Flyer]

And the 4th year 320 FOs at JQ will make that.... Although for probably 105hrs a month 🤑🤑🤑

[2Plus]

The 737 F/O annual estimates quoted above are crap! Current 65 hr rosters get nowhere near 200k, including DTA. More like 160k plus possible bonus.

[cloudsurfng]

I've been in the top half of the rotation this financial year. Assigned on most AV days, plus a little extra here and there. Most rosters have come in around 82 hours. Expecting it to drop off for the next 6 months as I move down the bottom. Haven't done a 65 hour roster in over 12 months

[HappyBandit]

The 737 F/O annual estimates quoted above are crap! Current 65 hr rosters get nowhere near 200k, including DTA. More like 160k plus possible bonus.

I concur. I meet up with a good mate of mine fairly regularly and lets just say Im usually the one shouting coffees and hes lactose intolerant (thats an extra 50c 😊). Im a regional skipper so he obviously isnt earning circa 200k, unless hes been lying to me.

He also noted the lack of crews especially on the 73. Will be interesting to see when recruitment starts again. I suspect AJ is holding off as he still needs to rid another 1000 employees from the tranformation program. I guess it doesnt look good waving goodbye to some and then same day recruiting a heap of pilots.

[Transition Layer]

So are any 737FOs cracking $200k?


Yep, another one here on track for about $210k this FY, excl super but including DTA. Two bonus payments helped obviously. Most rosters are coming out in the low 70s at the moment, so with a reserve call out here and there, and picking up some extra work it's quite easy to average 80hrs a roster.

No doubt still a pay cut for those S/Os coming from the 744 or 380, but definitely not as bad as people make it out to be.

[Beer Baron]

Yep, as above, I'm on track for 200+ as a 737 F/O just through rosters above 70 hours and then being called out on half your reserve/standby days. Not hard to average 80 hours a roster.

Also capt cloudbuster's numbers are not quite right. Current hourly rate is $183.43. And while a recent average of bonus's may be $3000, this years 8% and next years probably similar %, of ~200K is obviously more than $3000.

Still less than many get paid but better than had been suggested. You certainly work for the dough though.

[ROH111]

Yep, as above, I'm on track for 200+ as a 737 F/O just through rosters above 70 hours and then being called out on half your reserve/standby days. Not hard to average 80 hours a roster.

Also capt cloudbuster's numbers are not quite right. Current hourly rate is $183.43. And while a recent average of bonus's may be $3000, this years 8% and next years probably similar %, of ~200K is obviously more than $3000.

Still less than many get paid but better than had been suggested. You certainly work for the dough though.


No doubt! But, I'd love to work 70-80 hours and get that remuneration. At the jQ its 100-105 hours a month, including DTA and a day off payment here and there, and year to date on the 15th of Dec is $108,000 as an A320 FO. So the pay is awesome, but that's what I call working hard!

Less than 2 years to go and it's back to Qantas! I hear some blokes are trying to get back early, and why wouldn't you.

[Transition Layer]

That's nasty ROH!

Surely the pilots at JQ must be coming up against stick hour issues doing those sort of hours every month? I've noticed a huge number of cancelled JQ flights lately (even more than usual) - crewing issues something to do with it perhaps?

[ROH111]

I'm not sure transition, I haven't specifically heard of anyone, but no doubt some would be getting tight.

I know of a few blokes who have had to take sickies, it just gets too much.

But if you're young and keen, it's big cash, and they are so short!

[oicur12.again]

"Still less than many get paid but better than had been suggested."

Who exactly are the "many"?

[Beer Baron]

Who exactly are the "many"?

Well, given this was a discussion in the context of Qantas positions, the "many" would be;

Probably most A380 S/O's
A number of 744 S/O's
A330 F/O's
744 F/O's
A380 F/O's
All QF Captains.

[dragon man]

I'm scratching my head about this recruitment for the 787. In the last EBA the company got effectively a B scale for 787 SOs. However by my reckoning a lot of promotion will open up to 747 and 380 SOs to go to probably the 737 and 330. This will mean they will have to put new pilots on the 747 or 380 at much more money than the 787 SOs. So, if I'm correct how are they going to allocate who to what aircraft? Anyone got some thoughts?

[hotnhigh]

So Qantas is looking at record profits.... Last time they did that the gfc was just around the corner. Prior to that SARS was good at crippling promotion.
Looking at the markets today, well, is it possible for GFC MK II to be only a short time away?
That aside, I'm not sure why the euphoria surrounding the imminent(?) recruitment.
Qantas still has 200+ outside who will come back. The hurrah about the 787 amounts to 7-8 aircraft in the near term, till 2018. In that time Jumbos are supposedly going to wither. Alan Joyce has not ordered one new aircraft for qantas in his tenure. (Bonuses all round!) And yes qantas is desperate for capacity, however, this is not the silver bullet that people are suggesting.
Sure more 787s will come, but there either needs to be a dramatic shift in deliveries to increase the total fleet size or the status quo remains.
Joining within a year of Ansett's collapse, I don't have seniority for a long haul FO position. That's fine, domestic fo is cool, but realistically I don't see that changing for a long time, no matter how you want to cut it.
Twenty years to command....tell him he's dreaming. :=;)

[Keg]

Do we still have 200+ on LWOP? I haven't seen an update on that in a while.

The 744 retirement plan has been amended a few times since August last year when the 787s were announced to retire a number of the 744s. I'm not sure the current plan indicates the 744 withers quite in the time frame or numbers you suggest hotnhigh.

[ROH111]

Dragon: great question.

The 787 EBA is about lowering the opportunity to make over time.

The 787-9 and the 777-X if they get them, will do the long haul and ultra long haul flying, and you watch, the A380 and the last of the 747's will be re deployed to the Asian routes (medium to short haul) thereby nullifying all overtime.

[dr dre]

So, if I'm correct how are they going to allocate who to what aircraft? Anyone got some thoughts?


Previous courses were just randomly assigned to whatever slots they needed on a specific type at the time. I don't think there is any specific criteria for assignment. From what I've heard they needed to start recruiting S/O's on the 747/330 several months ago.
I guess if they need 10 bodies to start on a day to crew whatever plane they'll pull the next ten out of the hat (or the hold pool). I don't think "I want to wait for a bigger aircraft" is going to elicit a positive response.

[Beer Baron]

When the team at the top decides what planes they are going to fly on what routes I'd be amazed if they considered the overtime payments going to the 4 pilots.
If they feel they can fill 500 seats to a destination at a particular time of day then the 380 will fly it. They won't put a 250 seat aircraft on the route just to save a few thousand dollars.
Equally they won't stuff 500 seats into a market that can't support it or desires frequency rather than pure capacity (Asia) just to avoid overtime.
I think there are much bigger issues which determine which aircraft will fly where, than overtime. I doubt we are as important as we might think we are.

Regarding who gets allocated to which aircraft, in the past they have allocated new entrants on the same day based on how many hours they had on starting. I've seen them start crew a day early or late just so as to have them allocated to the aircraft they want if the hours wouldn't have achieved the desired outcome.

[Keg]

Yeah. We still didn't solve the day 1 lottery if we recruit some to the 330, the next month to the 380 and then the month after to the 787 followed by another 380 course.

[Capt Fathom]

Who would have thought joining an airline was a lottery?
You'd be ecstatic just to get in! Wouldn't you?

[Keg]

Yes. But when someone junior to you is earning double what you are after 4 years you'd justified in feeling a tad let down.

[theheadmaster]

EBA9 19.1.2

[Keg]

The practicalities of that when a S/O has been checked out for 6 months on the 787 and S/Os are required on the A380 is going to behold. It's got double training and inefficiency written all over it.

[myshoutcaptain]

Prior to recruitment from outside the group , open up to JQ , plenty of Airbus experience with training required to 330/380 , even 787 by the time the QF airframes arrive. Recruit into JQ and save the retraining. Additional required , off the street.

[The Green Goblin]

I'd love to see opportunities open up across the group.

Unfortunately pilot groups aren't that progressive. Management teams would prefer a new hire off the street verse the consequential training.

[Wingspar]

What about the MOU?
I'm no expert on that because it doesn't really affect me but I'd assume that the JQ guys could use it to come over?
It wouldn't be attractive to some but the more senior guys could use it to go over to QF if there was an attractive slot to take?

[Wingspar]

Also I don't think QF thought it through enough but the award is still there and there is nothing that requires QF to put all new hires on the 787.
Word has it that they'll require SO's this year and they will go to existing types.

[*Lancer*]

Wingspar, the MOU is based on group seniority starting in 2004.

MOU seniority numbers in Qantas (~2004) are not senior enough for widebody FO, whereas all eligible JQ Pilots (former Impulse pilots, <2004) are Captains, mostly on the 787.

This 'one-sidedness' is purely a result of rapid expansion in one carrier, and stagnation in the other.

[ExtraShot]

Prior to recruitment from outside the group , open up to JQ , plenty of Airbus experience with training required to 330/380 , even 787 by the time the QF airframes arrive. Recruit into JQ and save the retraining. Additional required , off the street.


Thing is, S/O's only get a Co-Pilot, or now 'Cruise Pilot' (or some such), Rating.

In comparison to a Command endorsement the training is reduced somewhat, so it doesn't matter where you come from (i.e. 320 or 787 qualified), in most (no, probably all according to CAsA) instances you'd probably still be required to do the same training anyway.

Additionally, in any JQ to QF LWOP agreement (for clarification, thats LWOP NOT associated with the MOU) you'd still be joining at the bottom of the Seniority list (just like the QF S/O's did when they went across to JQ). If you want to come across, chuck in an application and have a crack. The end result is almost the same as what you are saying, only JQ entrants would have to resign rather than keep their seniority in JQ.

The only issue is that by the sounds of what ROH111 has posted, the rumour I posted earlier of a shortage on your side of the fence is not unfounded. Would there perhaps be a 'Gentlemens' agreement to prevent QF from giving you the nod and causing further red faces over there? :hmm:

[maggot]

Thing is, S/O's only get a Co-Pilot, or now 'Cruise Pilot' (or some such), Rating.

In comparison to a Command endorsement the training is reduced somewhat, so it doesn't matter where you come from (i.e. 320 or 787 qualified), in most (no, probably all according to CAsA) instances you'd probably still be required to do the same training anyway

Yeah this is a certainty. A380 FOs getting RINd to SO last month also 'needed' training to check out...

:hmm:

[Iron Bar]

It would have to be a "ladies agreement" given the current JQ Chief Pilot and head of QF recruiting are certainly not gentleman.....

I would encourage all group pilots to apply if they are interested.

A potential employer can't discriminate based on your previous employment. Ie, in this case, a suitably qualified and experienced pilot from JQ or Qlink has to be considered on the same merits as one from Rex or Alliance.

[The Green Goblin]

I'd be quite concerned if a QF group pilot didn't get into mainline.

After all, they are considered safe to fly multi million dollar aircraft in other parts of the group doing the same job.

Hopefully their previous service will count towards long service leave and staff travel :)

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Goblin

QF pilots have been asking for a group opportunity list for eleven and a half years. There has been no appetite for it from any of the stakeholders with anything to lose. I can't see that changing.

Have a chat to the Ansett 737 contractors about your last point.

[The Green Goblin]

We are not talking about prop pilots. They've been banished from jets for good the moment they signup to the link. Unless of course they want to go to virgin :D

[crosscutter]

start shaving those beards boys

From what I understand due to a new proposed positive discrimation policy from one of the white shirts .... 'shaving those beards' may not do you any good. Might need estrogen pills. And no.... I'm not joking

[Lookleft]

A potential employer can't discriminate based on your previous employment. Ie, in this case, a suitably qualified and experienced pilot from JQ or Qlink has to be considered on the same merits as one from Rex or Alliance.

There are a whole range of factors that employers can't discriminate against including age, but males who are over 50 can't seem to get jobs no matter what their experience. I would bet that there might be a token few who would get accepted into mainline but any company has a workaround.

[engine out]

Heard exactly same rumour from several places regards hiring ratio, around 30% to be female. I know AJ has been pushing this line across the business for sometime. Really though whatever happened to employing the best person for the job?

As for other Qantas group pilots, I'm sure Qantas will take a few but they can always find a reason not to employ people who maybe qualified. They rejected plenty of fine pilots in the past.

[Iron Bar]

They certainly have a smart legal and HR team to interpret the Act. But to exclude one group entirely, in favor of another would be difficult to explain.

I suppose we will see, I reckon fairly soon. Get your CV in order gang. There must still be a "Folder" of cubes, maths problems and psych test questions still floating around.....

[0tto]

A potential employer can't discriminate based on your previous employment. Ie, in this case, a suitably qualified and experienced pilot from JQ or Qlink has to be considered on the same merits as one from Rex or Alliance.Yes but a fine example is all the QantasLink flight attendants who had applied for international ops, had received the rejection email last week. Many of those are very good at their job too!

They are VERY short on cabin crew and they have blocked further leave approval till next financial year. It will be the same when Qantas begins to hire for pilots. Link management will be blocking many from moving across!

[Going Nowhere]

QLink have just released an EOI for flight crew to go to Network for 2 years on LWOP.

[VH DSJ]

QLink have just released an EOI for flight crew to go to Network for 2 years on LWOP.

Would this suggest management is expecting an exodus of Network crew to mainline/EK?

[Iron Bar]

Otto,

If that's the situation, have the crew gather their rejection letters together and call a good industrial lawyer. (Not FAAA). Apply to FWC and subpoena the interview notes and HR documents.

Takes some balls and commitment, but the HR managers and lawyers know that too.

[SixDemonBag]

Still hearing rumours of S/O recruitment onto the A330 mid-year.

[Chad Gates]

Is there any indication of how many?

[maggot]

Is there any indication of how many?

Depends how many cadets return the call

Total guess but maybe a few dozen max til the 787 ramp up. 330 and maybe 400.

[SandyPalms]

a few dozen

A330

I think it's fair to say, they are not all needed on the A330. New EBA and all that. Letters of preference updated.

Disclaimer: Galley Gossip with no facts whatsoever. No idea what timeframe, but rumours are by the end of the year.

[SixDemonBag]

I think it's fair to say, they are not all needed on the A330. New EBA and all that. Letters of preference updated.

It's all about creating an excess in a rank and type where vacancies will happen as everyone shuffles. It's crazy to think QF management and training department could have the foresight for once…especially after such a long time of stagnation. I could see some A330 S/O's taking first available F/O slots as it's not a pay reduction (as it is off some types - as discussed before).

As for training costs, seems lately that they don't GAF. The recent RIN's are a testament to that.

Resource Planning? You mean Resource Catch-up!

[Zac Clarke]

Reading the Long Haul EBA https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/AE415325.pdf

Would anyone be able to tell me what sort of "credit hours" to expect, to gauge an idea of remuneration as an SO at QF across the fleets.

Currently a Highline 320 FO with JQ, and would like to compare.

Appreciate any help.

[*Lancer*]

Zac, base bay credit hours (MGH) are 160H in 56 days. 1043H pa.

Increases to flying (e.g. 180H), overtime if applicable, ODTA (travelling allowance), meal allowances, and some other bits are all additional but don't get a home loan based on it.

Overtime is the largest variable between the fleets: zero on the 787, a little on the A330, 20-30% on the B744/A380.

[Troo believer]

you forgot the biggest fleet the 737. No over time either. 12 hour duty extendable if required. only get paid for the credited sector time. Sit on the ground for a few hours, no pay.

[Fuel-Off]

Am I hearing correctly that QF will be moving away from the archaic RAAFesque style of psychometric selection and moving towards a new world process? Not saying that this is going to be for better or worse, just wonder anyone in the know can add any credibility to said rumour?

Keg, white courtesy phone. Keg, white courtesy phone.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Keg]

All I know is that with recruiting due to recommence in the next 6-18 months or so, they're taking the opportunity to review the way we've done business in the past and to update it for the 21st century.

The Sydney Swans' 'no dickheads' philosophy seems to be the model they're looking to emulate. :D :ok:

What it will actually look like, I have no idea. Time will tell. I hope the final product is as good as they seem to want it to be.

[Capt Fathom]

All I know is that with recruiting due to recommence in the next 6-18 months or so
The Cairns Refueller (cousin of TSV Refueller) tells me July 2016! Certainly within Keg's price range!

[maggot]

Maybe even sooner.....

[Zac Clarke]

Thanks Lancer,

In regards to allowances, what would be average allowances then? Trying to get an idea of a sample payslip really...

Cheers

[SandyPalms]

April :ok:

[Aussie Fo]

It appears we are short of crew. However there are a lot of guys on LWOP. 200 perhaps possible less. No one wants to recruit then all these guys come back to a decent position with a window seat.
Heard that the accountants don't want to recruit unless its onto the 787.
If you haven't already extended your LWOP I'll put 1$ on every guys being told come back to what's on offer or resign.

[maggot]

Yeah the there's been no LWOP extensions for sometime and no more LWOP at all for all fleets bar 380FO, although that fleet is no longer allowed LWOP also now (RIn on going it seems still?)
No they didn't want to recruit onto the 330 but they need to and I have also heard April from someone who really should know... :ok:

[donpizmeov]

I know two fellas that extended LWOP for another 3 years in Dec 15.

[maggot]

Same here
Depends on the fleet they're from

[Keg]

Or the fleet they were likely to return to.

April recruiting would suggest accepting applications from the end of this month. I'm not sure the recruiting process is that advanced? Expressions of interest for line crew to be involved in the recruitmet process? None have been advertised. Maybe instead starting to accept applications in April for starts from mid year?

[Australopithecus]

That sounds about right, Keg. I have been doing a second officer trip once a bid period on average, as are many other 330 captains. We have been understaffed for quite a while now, and with the recent increased fleet utilisation bumping the divisors up by...uh, let's see...12.5% lately, the understrength is now getting serious.

The lamentations from the back seat are screwing up the whisper-quiet vibe* of the whole experience.

* figure of speech; there are only transient vibes, and they always bite check OK

[Wingspar]

I love it.
There is no room for anything.
Everyone on max divisors bar the A380 F/O's.
They want leave back.
They can't take anyone off the line for training because they need them where they are.
No amount of new recruits will fix the problem for the next twelve months at least.
Ops normal!
Seen it all before.
I love it!

[crosscutter]

Ok..it's not hard..but I'm confused.

Capt & FO divisors reduced from the Xmas/Vancouver max. Now in the 160's. Further reductions with dropping LAX...OK a few Hong Kongs to come. People just been RINed. But training slots now. LWOP returnees? More flying to come?:ugh:

Meanwhile the 330, going gang busters.

[removalist]

I've just heard of a cadet that has been out in the wilderness has been given a start. No idea of a date or fleet. :D

[noclue]

Yes but it wasn't a start from Qf. A few of them have been given starts by Emirates this week. :ok:


Can anyone else confirm this?

[C441]

Yes but it wasn't a start from Qf. A few of them have been given starts by Emirates this week.
Can anyone else confirm this?
Confirmed. I personally know of at least one ex-Qantas cadet recently interviewed and accepted by Emirates.

[mcgrath50]

Confirmed. I personally know of at least one ex-Qantas cadet recently interviewed and accepted by Emirates.

Based on their experience in Qlink (or wherever else they have been) I assume? IF Emirates is taking Qantas cadets just because they are qantas cadets but don't meet the EK minimums, that is big news!

[The Green Goblin]

Most of the QF cadets would be pushing 30 or later now. The last pilots started in Qantas were in late 2008. They were a mix of GA & cadets. The cadets that would have been approaching 'their time' would have been in industry placement since '06 and started training around 03/04.

There'd be no career in Qantas unless things move very fast. Do the maths. These guys are now 30-31. Maybe older.

[Di_Vosh]

IF Emirates is taking Qantas cadets just because they are qantas cadets but don't meet the EK minimums, that is big news!

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption to make.

AFAIK, all the Qantas cadets at Qlink who were there prior to 2008 are now Captains and have been for at least 12 months; some for over 2 years.

DIVOSH!

[AviatoR21]

If QF are hiring and they've waited all this time doing the 'hard yards' in a regional TP why on earth would they go to EK? Everyone's different I guess.

[donpizmeov]

Are QF hiring, or are they rumoured to be going to start hiring? Guys on LWOP are still getting extensions.

[maggot]

Are QF hiring, or are they rumoured to be going to start hiring? Guys on LWOP are still getting extensions.

It wouldnt surprise me despite that it was meant to have ceased. From which fleet? Short term or a few years?

Qf haven't advertised but apparently recalling cadets from the past to start in april and on. 'Rumour' from all over flt ops and directly from the CP. We shall see

[maggot]

Well nothings a sure thing til you're sitting in the seat and pushing back but as far as it can be said, the industry placement cadets are getting called up to start this year should they be up for it. If not im sure they'll enjoy their choice :)

[In the Soup]

QF runs on rumours

[altocu]

If the choice was to accept a 777 FO gig on good money now, or hold out for the rumoured qf A330 SO gig that might or might not happen, I personally find it hard to fault the decisions made.

Unless of course you have worked for said operator. Having done so, I can assure you that the money is not as good as it seems. It's not about how much you make, it's how much you can save. Dubai has become ridiculously expensive. In addition, the rosters over the long term are simply unsustainable.

[galdian]

said operator, when you're young and starry eyed will give you quality F/O time, flog you to death perhaps....but you're at the right end of your career to be flogged....and you get into the system of bigger, shinier stuff whilst not waiting to be a librarian which, whilst all experience will give you something, I doubt anyone would disagree that F/O experience - for whatever reason - gives you more grounding than S/O experiences.

just another way of looking at "stuff".

cheers.

[The Green Goblin]

I'd take the FO 777 slot and retire in the backseat at qantas when they eventually call.

No doubt you'll be close to retirement age by that stage anyway.

[yadot]

So,

question is this. Why do CADETS get priority over direct entry pilots with real experience (not ICUS or P3 time) and get priority. Is this called 'saving face' due to HR/ GD/MJ screw UPS?

Qantas is so disappointing. What ever happened to the network of 2005? Anyone remember?

Sad to see Australian aviation sold out to our 'free' world of aviation.

[carro]

So Yadot,

Question is this - Do you not consider pilots with 4000-7000hrs, with a couple thousand Multi Crew Command as having real experience? As this is what the cadets that started in Industry Placement in 07/08/09 have. As such, some have applied to and are being offered Emirates positions.

Carro

[ClearanceClarence1]

Don't do it Ladies and Gents. I have worked for both and Qantas is heaps better. Think of where you want to be in 7 years. I have met lots of elderly happy gents in QF and that's who I intend to be. There is more to life than your rank and plane and you will figure that out when you have kids.

[Arewegettingjets]

Yadot,

Have you flown with any of these cadets before? One of them did my line check a few weeks ago! That's right mate, some of them are check captains! Do your research before you go mouthing off. Are you a check captain Yadot? Get real son.
The reason they are getting priority is because they are high quality applicants. Good luck to them. Even the most junior ones who started at QL 3 years ago are great pilots and people. QF will be very happy with the 50 or so they get.

[morno]

Exactly. Because you could say they have already done the interview and all that jazz, they've just been on a very long hold file.

I'd hardly call them cadets to be honest. Not like a traditional cadet anyway.

morno

[dr dre]

So,

question is this. Why do CADETS get priority over direct entry pilots with real experience (not ICUS or P3 time) and get priority?


We're not going to devolve into another cadet bashing thread are we? Let's just say there's a reason QF have employed cadets in the past, are going to employ them in the near future and will probably (not confirmed ATM) restart their cadet program in some way, shape or form in the future.
If you're angry or upset about it, maybe have a look in the mirror.

[Di_Vosh]

I'd agree with (plenty of) previous posters saying that the Cadets getting mainline gigs have a reasonable amount of experience.

Didn't know about the Check Captain (must be in Sunnies) but there are two in Eastern who are Sim trainers.

There are around 50 cadets in Qlink. IMHO, you could put them against any other random 50 Qlink pilots and the standards would be indistinguishable between the two groups.

Even the last lot of Cadets who've joined have been with us for around three years. Anyone who's flown for Qlink for three years should be acceptable for SO placement.

The reason they are getting priority is because they are high quality applicants.

While I'd agree with the sentiment of that statement, my personal opinion is that QANTAS need SO's yesterday. Their pilot recruitment department is being rebuilt from scratch and in order to get some SO's in the training cycle, they're willing to accept the more senior cadets without them going through the complete recruitment process.

From what I had heard in January, the original plan was to have the 10 most senior cadets start their training in early February. (That didn't eventuate, so the plan may evolve).

ClearanceClarence1 while conditions at Emirates may be as you say (plenty of others say this elsewhere in Prune) you might not be aware of how hard guys at Qlink work:

Being rostered to fly 18-20 days out of every 28 is becoming common. Many of our overnights are "Min rest" in a very real sense. That is, five sectors on day 1, and leaving the airport at 8:30pm. Back there at 06:00am the next morning, where you typically fly another three sectors.

You try doing that six to eight times every four weeks, and you may be forgiven for thinking that conditions at Emirates are not so bad. In seven years they'll likely be a Captain over there. IF they have the right to work in Europe, then plenty of opportunities...

Just my thoughts.

DIVOSH!

[CaptCloudbuster]

From personal experience 99% of the QF Cadets I've flown with operating as brand new 737 FO's are a credit to themselves and the integrity of the QF Program that selected them. They often have above average IQ (and more importantly EQ), they know and apply dillegently their SOPs, they demonstrate a willingness to learn, improve their skill set and within a very short time demonstrate equal or better stick and rudder skills than many of their GA counterparts.

My background is GA and I say bring back as many Cadets out there on industry placement as we can get our hands on. :ok:

[Keg]

Why do CADETS get priority over direct entry pilots with real experience (not ICUS or P3 time) and get priority.


In these specific circumstances it's because these cadets were identified by Qantas more than 6 years ago as being the type of pilot they wanted. They were tapped on the shoulder back then as being suitable, went through all the selection process, were crutinised whilst doing their ab initio training far more than their non cadet colleagues and when graduating were told that Qantas hoped to employ them ASAP.

So here we are 6-8 years later from when they went through the selection process and subsequent training, scrutiny and graduation, and you're asking why they should get priority over someone who hasn't been through that process at all and is a complete unknown to Qantas? :eek: :ugh:

In general terms regarding cadetships, well that's a topic that's been done to death on this forum. In 20 years I reckon the various levels of government will have essentially killed off GA and the various cadetships will be the new pathway into airlines.

[Di_Vosh]

In 20 years I reckon the various levels of government will have essentially killed off GA and the various cadetships will be the new pathway into airlines.

Sadly, it wont be that long...


DIVOSH!

[ANCDU]

Sort of agree with you Keg, those that have been doing industry placement with QLink or Jetstar or some other job that keeps them flying should have the earliest opportunity. Unfortunately there were a number through choice decided not to continue flying, which to me shows little motivation towards the actual job, these are the cadets that shouldn't be given the earliest opportunity, they have the wrong motivation for the job, and will end up being one of those cadets that gives the rest a bad name.

Don't get me wrong, most are very capable, motivated operators. Good luck to everyone applying!, as someone else said will be nice to see some new faces around the place (...that don't have grey hair!!)

[In the Soup]

Keg has nailed that one on the head.

I have heard comments among the QLink community to the tune of "if it's good enough for them then it's good enough for all of us"

I also agree with DiVosh, there are many pilots in sunnies and eastern who maintain a standard well above company expectations and those pilots would be an exceptional choice for qf. But I don't believe these pilots should have an open door into Qantas for this reason without being subjected to a recruitment process to Qantas standard.

I think many people forget (most likely because it has been years since qf ran a cadet course), that the cadets were tested and scrutinised throughout the training phase - all to the Qantas standard.

ANCDU, I also agree with you. I would like to think the Lords at QF will be think twice about those who have had time away from aviation. There plenty of boys and girls who are highly motivated to join the company and it would be sad to know that slots were taken up by people who were less motivated

[maggot]

My background is GA and I say bring back as many Cadets out there on industry placement as we can get our hands on. :ok:

I reckon qf generally maintains a good balance of recruits (back when we did recruit obv!), a good mix is good for the pilot body imo. (Cadet here too btw)
Except theres too many airfarce recruits ;)

[dr dre]

I reckon qf generally maintains a good balance of recruits (back when we did recruit obv!), a good mix is good for the pilot body imo. (Cadet here too btw)
Except theres too many airfarce recruits

Well it might be interesting to see the new "composition" of recruits, given that apparently they'll be changing what they're looking for in recruitment, doing it all on personality and other factors, the new breed of pilot could be a little different to what we've seen in the past

[maggot]

Yep selected specifically to deal with us :}

[CaptCloudbuster]

... why do they insist on winding the pedals all the way in, seat to the floor and belts let out all the way??:eek:

[Brakerider]

Well it might be interesting to see the new "composition" of recruits, given that apparently they'll be changing what they're looking for in recruitment, doing it all on personality and other factors, the new breed of pilot could be a little different to what we've seen in the past

Chances are being a good handler won't be on the list..

[The Green Goblin]

Because they have short legs, long bodies and big bellies.

Helps with G force you know.

[IsDon]

... why do they insist on winding the pedals all the way in, seat to the floor and belts let out all the way??:eek:

Oh CC. Just stirring the pot again?

[yadot]

My question was genuine when asking what I did. As far as I remember in Qlink and elsewhere, many direct entry candidates were also selected. Some, who in fact, like me, helped train the cadets and were more scrutinised more than 6 times a year with on going analysis of ones skills. I am not going to react to any individual here that has had a shot, because it is pointless.

The facts are this.

Fact 1) Those cadets wouldn't be in command with an ATPL if CASA had not been pressured to allow ICUS to be logged. Qantas management realised they would have a workforce of pilots unable to be given upgrades in the future and it was touch and go there for a while regarding this.
Fact 2) Those cadets cried their little hearts out when losing their ghosting seniority in QF. Welcome to the real world! If you don't work for QF, then you shouldn't ever have a seniority number (implemented by a previous QF Chief Pilot who, yes you guess it, was a cadet).
Fact 3) Cadets are humans and nice people. They have great skills and boy do they know the SOP's well. However, that doesn't mean, contrary to this argument that I keep hearing, is that GA pilots have "bad skills". If learning to instruct, being a charter pilot, going to university or a jet jock in the military is a "bad skill", then the days of being a professional Qantas pilot are numbered.

All the best to the direct entry pilots in the future and the cadets.

[Jc31]

di vosh

are the 50 cadets you mention in qlink, qlink cadets or mainline cadets on placement?

JC31

[yadot]

Legally speaking, the 'letter of intent' is not actually legally worth the paper it is written on. It is not binding and therefor means nothing. So whenever the recruitment begins again, it could be a free for all and I'm happy for this.

I have an amazing job and have turned down other major airlines for this reason. However, the heart is with QF, so I would, and I am sure many out there reading this, would also like to see a fair system implemented to cover everyone. That's all.

[donpizmeov]

If you turned down other airlines, did you have to apply to them first? Bit of a waste of everyone's time. Always amuses me to hear this.

[mcgrath50]

are the 50 cadets you mention in qlink, qlink cadets or mainline cadets on placement?

Mainline cadets in inudstry. Will be about another 10 at jetstar another 10 in GA and about 10 out of the industry or in jobs they won't leave even if QF comes calling.

[Average Joe]

di vosh

are the 50 cadets you mention in qlink, qlink cadets or mainline cadets on placement?

JC31

There's no such thing as a Q-Link cadet. Qantas cadets still in industry placement are effectively on loan to other entities.

[carro]

Yadot,

Not all cadets with a Multi Crew Command position obtained their ATPL through an ICUS program.

Carro

[yadot]

This conversation has degenerated into taking personal shots at me and some of my work colleagues now at Qlink. This was not the purpose of the post and please refer to the rules of pprune and return to the topic.

[Jc31]

There's no such thing as a Q-Link cadet. Qantas cadets still in industry placement are effectively on loan to other entities.

There is such a thing as qlink cadets as pilot were hired as either cadets or direct entry

Jc31

[yadot]

No Sir, all the best and take care! I was pointing out a fact that we were all disappointed and clearly you have been as well somewhere along the line. Hope it all works out for you and everyone.

I'm leaving this discussion for someone who has more time available then me! Ciao.

[Going Nowhere]

Pretty sure the QF cadets at QLink fly real planes too...

[Aviatrix91]

Can this thread get back on the topic of Qantas recruiting and stop fretting over opinions and cadets?

[Captain Biggles84]

QF Cadets different from QLink Cadets.
One tested to a much higher standard.
Both bought jobs!!!
At the end of the day does it matter mmmm no. Still get good and bad operators from cadets to GA to DE F/O to DEC.

[Going Nowhere]

No such thing as QLink cadets. There are QLink pilots who went through the QLink trainee program though.

Different process as far as training and previous experience.

Not much difference once you get on line though..

Biggles84, there are also QLink pilots who were 'direct entry' who paid for their Dash8 endorsement. Did they buy their jobs too?

[Di_Vosh]

QF Cadets different from QLink Cadets.
One tested to a much higher standard.
Both bought jobs!!!

AFAIK there have never been any Qlink Cadets. Qlink Trainees, sure, but that's an entirely different pathway.

Please tell us how a Qantas cadet has "bought" a job?

DIVOSH!

[Di_Vosh]

Yadot

It's a bit disappointing that you have a go at cadets and then decide to "leave the conversation" because

This conversation has degenerated into taking personal shots at me and some of my work colleagues now at Qlink.

Unless some posts have been removed I can't see any evidence of this.

I (amongst others) stated previously that many of the cadets at Qlink will be more than capable of becoming mainline SO's because they've had extensive real-world experience in their time at Qlink, including (in some cases) several years TP command.

One of your replies included:

The facts are this.

Fact 1) Those cadets wouldn't be in command with an ATPL if CASA had not been pressured to allow ICUS to be logged. Qantas management realised they would have a workforce of pilots unable to be given upgrades in the future and it was touch and go there for a while regarding this.

Fact 2) Those cadets cried their little hearts out when losing their ghosting seniority in QF. Welcome to the real world! If you don't work for QF, then you shouldn't ever have a seniority number (implemented by a previous QF Chief Pilot who, yes you guess it, was a cadet).

Fact 3) Cadets are humans and nice people. They have great skills and boy do they know the SOP's well. However, that doesn't mean, contrary to this argument that I keep hearing, is that GA pilots have "bad skills". If learning to instruct, being a charter pilot, going to university or a jet jock in the military is a "bad skill", then the days of being a professional Qantas pilot are numbered.


MY OPINION:

Fact 1: So what? The FACT is, is that they have TP command and some have logged well over 1000 hours command.

Fact 2: Hardly relevant to the discussion at hand. The irony in this "fact" is that you're having a personal stab at a group of people and are then refusing to continue a discussion that you started because you feel other people are having a swipe at you for making the statement in the first place.

Fact 3: Please point out to us here where anyone has said on this thread that "GA pilots have "bad skills".



DIVOSH!

[dr dre]

QF Cadets different from QLink Cadets.
One tested to a much higher standard.
Both bought jobs!!!


Errrr no, they put in applications, were screened and tested, were successful with said applications and then completed supervised training.

No buying of any jobs anywhere, they still paid for their licences and ratings like any other pilot would.

[Derfred]

Yadot: From memory, prior to CASA accepting ICUS for ATPL some ex-cadets were faced with the prospect of buying hours in a light aircraft to meet some arbitrary requirement for an ATPL.

I think it didn't CASA long to be persuaded that proper ICUS sectors on commercial RPT operations (where they act as if in command and make all operational decisions under the supervision of a Captain) was far more beneficial than buzzing up and down the coast in a Jabiru for a couple of weeks.

ATPL requirements do not count the "quality" of command hours, merely a number.

[rmcdonal]

I think it didn't CASA long to be persuaded that proper ICUS sectors on commercial RPT operations (where they act as if in command and make all operational decisions under the supervision of a Captain)
Accept it wasn't proper ICUS. All of the significant operational decisions were still made by the Captain. It was just Pilot Flying time logged as ICUS rather than Co-Pilot. The Captains on the flights didn't even know if the FO was logging it or not. Once the pilot had achieved the ATPL and the command upgrade requirements they went back to logging straight Co-Pilot time once again. Based on the old hour logging requirements of half for Co-Pilot time it actually meant that some Co-pilots were logging 3/4 time. Half time for when the Captain flew and full ICUS for when they did. In fact some Co-Pilots requested to fly all the sectors so they could log ICUS faster, until CASA found out.

What really needed to happen was for the ATPL requirements to change and reflect the fact some pilots will go directly into the RH seat of an airliner and never gain command experience until they are given a command, but that that is ok as long as they have the significant FO time to back it up before hand.

[mcgrath50]

Both bought jobs!!!

Qantas Cadets paid no more to sit on those courses than the regular students at the training providers, they just had a big brother watching over their shoulders.

[Angle of Attack]

Just heard on fairly good authority that the first round of hiring will start in April, but not onto 787 onto 330. 35 S/O's being the rumoured number. And I don't usually put up rumours on this forum but I am almost certain it is correct.

[lee_apromise]

Just heard on fairly good authority that the first round of hiring will start in April, but not onto 787 onto 330. 35 S/O's being the rumoured number. And I don't usually put up rumours on this forum but I am almost certain it is correct.

What would be the min. req. for S/O this time? It seems the old published min. req. has been taken away from the website. Perhaps it's the sign of new min. req.?

[Angle of Attack]

I can say on good authority I have no idea, I haven't heard any information regarding requirements, sorry.

[SandyPalms]

LWOP pilots are already employed. I understand the 35 are NEW hires.

Apparently we are 100 short today. Especially on the A330.

My bet would be Cadets initially, subject to QLink releasing them, as the recruitment department isn't ready yet.

I seriously doubt they can even find the letters of intent.

[Wingspar]

Ditto the remarks on the A330.
The planned flying is supposed to increase substantially on that aircraft this year.
I doubt very much it will be increasing the domestic portion of it.
The only reasonable conclusion is increased international which will result in an increased requirement for S/O's especially.

[Tankengine]

If 330 flying is to increase Internationally why are they pulling crew rests and toilets out of the -200s and configuring them Domestically.:{:ugh:

[mcgrath50]

If 330 flying is to increase Internationally why are they pulling crew rests and toilets out of the -200s and configuring them Domestically.

Because QF doesn't plan more than 6 months in advance and this decision was made over 12 months ago? :hmm:

[Wingspar]

Hah!!!
Tank, that's QF's Modus Operandi!
It has been for years.
What you wrote locks it in!
:D:D:D

[dragon man]

Exactly, that's why after the last pilots took VR only late August last year that they are now advertising four Command and FOs slots. It's now official that OJM and OEB are staying, however I'm sure Alan won't dent the record profits by upgrading the interiors and IFE. The place is dysfunctional. Management are hopeless . They make money despite themselves.

[Going Nowhere]

Just pillows and blankets for the 2 747's.

Just call it a "refresh" or enhancement, not an upgrade... :=

[Going Boeing]

Dragon Man, are you sure that it's OEB & OJM?

OJS/T/U have been scheduled to be retired in 2018/19 so the way I read the statement by the crooks that run the place, it could mean that two of those three B747's would be put through their third "D" checks and remain in service with the six ER's.

[crosscutter]

Dragon Man, are you sure that it's OEB & OJM?

OJS/T/U have been scheduled to be retired in 2018/19 so the way I read the statement by the crooks that run the place, it could mean that two of those three B747's would be put through their third "D" checks and remain in service with the six ER's.

OJM and OEB were meant to be going this FY. S/T/U still planned to go when you say. It all means nothing of course.

[dragon man]

Il,stick my neck out here and say none of the 747s will go in the next 3 years. The first 8 787s are all I believe for new routes. So, what routes could the 747 come off and be replaced by an A330? None I can think of even if they had surplus 330 to do it. All the 747 routes need 350 seat aircraft. Qantas management are proof you don't need a long neck and feathers to be a goose!

[Chips n gravy]

I hear the number of SO positions will be 170 by the end of 2019. Personally I thought they'd need more than that?? (End of 2019 is a while away)

How many cadets will make up the 170?

[C441]

I hear the number of SO positions will be 170 by the end of 2019

Something similar was probably said in the early 80's. 10 years later many more than that had been employed. The retirements due in the next 5 years probably exceed 170 - including me!

[mcgrath50]

I hear the number of SO positions will be 170 by the end of 2019. Personally I thought they'd need more than that?? (End of 2019 is a while away)

I see you read the press release.

How many cadets will make up the 170?

Approx 70. Depends how many choose to continue with their cadetships (there will be some who won't) and if there is any sort of selection process that thins those numbers.

[In the Soup]

Does anyone else know where Letter of Intent holders stand with QF?

[SixDemonBag]

Does anyone else know where Letter of Intent holders stand with QF?

Letter of intent?! From when? 2008?

[In the Soup]

Yes, a long time ago I know. Just a shout out to others who may be in a similar position.

[moa999]

OJM/OEB have to go in late 2017.

Even with the 'refresh'
they still have SkyBed Mk I (the sloper) in Business (if you miss out on old First)
and the crappy tiny fragile continually needs to be reset Rockwell Collins IFE system.

Can't see Qantas replacing seats/IFE, so its a pretty average passenger experience if you end up on one

OJS/OJT/OJU have a consistent product with the younger 6 744ERs so could well be kept beyond the arrival of the 787s

[CaptainSouth]

Add some spice to the mix. Rumours circulating amongst senior people that 744 could outlast A380 in QF fleet.
Discuss

[Keg]

Haven't heard that they'll outlast the A380 but have heard they may be hanging around until 2023 or thereabouts to be replaced by the 777X. Perhaps retirement of both 744 and A380 at same time by 777X? Maybe I will get back to the 744! :ok: (tell him he's dreaming).

Business plans are being put together re OJM/ OEB to keep them longer. Whether the plan is approved is another matter but someone is crunching the numbers.

[Going Boeing]

It's certainly a possibility. If the 9 youngest B744's are put through their third "D" check, then S/T/U could go through to 2024/5 and the 6 ER's could go to 2027/8.

At present there is no doubt that the seat mile costs of the B744 are lower than the A380 due to a lower fuel burn and lower cost of ownership (the A380's are still being leased/paid off). If the price of oil goes back up (which it will, eventually) the B744 will be even better on long range sectors in comparison to A380 seat mile costs.

When the B787 arrives in sufficient numbers to take over some of the existing A380 routes (eg DFW) then they'll struggle to find other routes that would be suitable for the A380's capacity. Thus it's possible that the A380's are disposed of before the B744.

[donpizmeov]

Going Boeing would you need to include the number of seats in the seat mile cost calculation?
Our 777 drivers have the same problem with maths when it comes to the 380. Right up until the 380 took all (well most of and increasing) ULR flights.

[Going Boeing]

The term "seat mile costs" does take into account the number of seats. The A380 comes out ahead of the B744 on 9-10 hour sectors but on anything longer than 12 hours, the B744 has the lower costs.

[donpizmeov]

Since the bus can carry its full zero fuel weight over 14hrs, and 744 can't, your argument is not supported by facts.

[Going Boeing]

Since the bus can carry its full zero fuel weight over 14hrs, and 744 can't, your argument is not supported by facts.

Sorry Don, I don't understand that statement - could you please elaborate?

[Derfred]

QF's CEO said to someone a while ago that he would make more money running two 789's Sydney-Dallas per day than one A380. I guess that supports the arguement of A380 being not fuel efficient on long legs. But the same CEO chose to replace the 744 with an A380 on that very route. I understand the 744 didn't quite have the range, hence the Brisbane triangle on the return. Seat-mile cost isn't everything if you can't make your destination. Mind you, fuel cost was much higher when he made that comment.

I'm also told that even the A380 needs to block out around 50 seats Dallas-Sydney. But it has more real estate for premium seats. The 789 doesn't. So the margin probably depends upon how many premium seats they can sell at top dollar, which will obviously vary with global economic conditions.

I think the 777-8X will be the eventual saviour of QF, considering that most of it's high value routes are ultra-long-range (unlike most other airlines). That will let them ditch the A380 and 744, and use the 789 on the thinner long range routes.

Now, I think they know that. I just wish they would order some. If they had 777-8X's around the corner, all they would need is another downturn, $700M loss, write of the 4-engine jets, post a record $5B loss from accounting write-downs, complain to the Government, sack 10000 staff, reduce the salaries of the remainder, then have a record profit the following year with massive bonuses all around. :hmm:

[1a sound asleep]

Where the 787s will end up :rolleyes::ugh:

https://www.facebook.com/qfsecrets/videos/1696577887281889/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video

[Going Boeing]

1a, that is such an accurate depiction of AJ.

[howyoulikethat]

Another 3 x 787's for JQ the one's that were off the table are back on with some new routes to be announced! Go figure..

[rowdy trousers]

Apparently JQ are quitting BNE HNL, so there would seem to be excess 787 capacity, rather than any requirement for extra aircraft.

[Keg]

Rumours are an extra 2 787s for QF as part of the first tranche of 8 to take them to 10. Unsure if they're part of the options or taking them off JQ.

[ANCDU]

Lots of rumours floating around, another strong one is that any after this initial purchase will be "group" aircraft (well they are anyway if you think about it), and will be transferred between entities as required, as per the right aircraft right route, right airline mantra that group management seem to be so in love with at the moment. The same rumour is floating around for the short haul fleet with commonality between Jetstar and mainline, or whoever flies them domestically for Qantas (Qantas link)...but that's another thread.

We all love our rumours and seem to hang on to them for hope, but the truth is when there is a fleet of 787's sitting on the ramp with a big roo on the tail being flown by mainline pilots is when I will start celebrating!

[Ollie Onion]

I have it on good authority that Qantas big wigs are exploring a recruit to group scenario where everyone will get a group joining date that will allow free movement between different entities.

[CurtainTwitcher]

I have it on good authority that Qantas big wigs are exploring a recruit to group scenario where everyone will get a group joining date that will allow free movement between different entities.
Yeh, I think this was a pilot "ask" oh, about a decade ago. Seems the "divide 'n' conquer" strategy isn't so smart in the hindsight. How many group pilots have been given great training & experience & then lost to competitors over the years?

The penny may have actually dropped - though it will never be admitted, experienced & well trained pilots are actually an asset, not a liability to an airline.

[crosscutter]

In place is a MOU. Otherwise join the Queue.

They do what has been rumoured as it is. If they decide Jetstar International is a basket case and that the a/c should be transferred... And if that means there are excess pilots in Jetstar then guess what... Join the Queue. "They" have set up the many companies and now have to share in some of the **** sandwich they created.

Many groups have been bashing on this door for ages. The perfect opportunity for implementation has come and gone. This ship has well and truly sailed off the cliff

[lee_apromise]

Is Qlink expecting a massive exodus? All of a sudden, Qlink Trainee F/O positions are up on the recruitment webpage.

[rmcdonal]

Is Qlink expecting a massive exodus? All of a sudden, Qlink Trainee F/O positions are up on the recruitment webpage. Looks like all the cadets currently in hibernation at the Link will finally get to go home to mainline. As they make up a good percentage of the total pilot numbers their departure will be felt as a higher than normal attrition rate. Add to that the normal retirements, the lowering of requirements at Emirates, and the fact that they stuffed up the crewing numbers a number of months ago and then failed to hire anyone while they were trying to kickstart Propstar NZ.
What you are left with is a current shortage in the FO ranks, and future shortage in the Captain ranks.
How massive it would be is hard to say, sort of depends on how quickly mainline intend on bringing their children home, and if they are going to allow non-cadets into mainline from the Link.
I also hear that they are having issues finding the 'right stuff' at the interviews, seems GA is spitting out pilots who haven't read any of the IFR section in the AIPs.

[Arewegettingjets]

I've also heard of applicants who've fronted for the interview with incomplete logbooks!!! Unbelievable

[The The]

Ditto the remarks on the A330.
The planned flying is supposed to increase substantially on that aircraft this year.
I doubt very much it will be increasing the domestic portion of it.
The only reasonable conclusion is increased international which will result in an increased requirement for S/O's especially.

Perth - Hong Kong next!

[maggot]

Looks like all the cadets currently in hibernation at the Link will finally get to go home to mainline. As they make up a good percentage of the total pilot numbers their departure will be felt as a higher than normal attrition rate. Add to that the normal retirements, the lowering of requirements at Emirates, and the fact that they stuffed up the crewing numbers a number of months ago and then failed to hire anyone while they were trying to kickstart Propstar NZ.
What you are left with is a current shortage in the FO ranks, and future shortage in the Captain ranks.
How massive it would be is hard to say, sort of depends on how quickly mainline intend on bringing their children home, and if they are going to allow non-cadets into mainline from the Link.
I also hear that they are having issues finding the 'right stuff' at the interviews, seems GA is spitting out pilots who haven't read any of the IFR section in the AIPs.
Lotsa candidates through m148 atm

[Angle of Attack]

Direct entry F/O on the 737 to be announced In the next 6 months. 60 positions apparently as the S/O's on The gravy train dont want to take a pay cut. To be taken from current group experienced f/o's . Heard it here first....

[C441]

Direct entry F/O on the 737 to be announced In the next 6 months. 60 positions apparently as the S/O's on The gravy train dont want to take a pay cut.

There's currently 340-odd S/O's across the 3 fleets. I'd be very surprised if they can't find 1 in 6 of them to take a window seat. They're not all earning substantial overtime on the 744 and 380.

When the training vacancies are released in a few weeks, those with no current promotion-listed Letter of Preference might suddenly come out of the woodwork when the opportunities are staring them in the face.

[maggot]

Not always just the pay/award - a lot of the slots would be based elsewhere. Not everyone lives to pack up the families life and move somewhere so daddy can have a fly. People are settled in after so lobg waiting. Partners jobs, houses, kids in school... for a pay cut?

Not applicable to me but its not always that simple

[Average Joe]

AoA, what do you mean by
?
Will they bypass the cadets and LOI guys n girls and hire these from Jetstar/link/efa etc?

Lol. On what planet are they going to bypass those guys who actually have a connection to mainline and go down to some random order of group employees they can't afford to lose?

[Angle of Attack]

Yes they will bypass all other applicants, they need experienced F/O's as the second officers don't want to leave their gravy train.

[IsDon]

Yes they will bypass all other applicants, they need experienced F/O's as the second officers don't want to leave their gravy train.

Horse ****e AOA.

Don't know where you're getting this nonsense from, maybe wishful thinking.

There is no mechanism within the awards to employ straight off the street into the 737 F/O seat. All employees will be for S/O positions. The F/O 737 positions will be advertised, just like any other vacancy, for all to bid for. As some others have mentioned, people change there bids right up to the hour they close, so no one knows with any certainty how many S/Os will bid for these positions.

It may very well transpire that the F/O awards will go very junior. It's happened in the past on the 737 and the 767 prior to 5:30 MDC. I fully expect this to happen again if the rumoured expansion is any where near correct. This may mean, as it has in the past, that F/O positions are filled from those that have only just joined the company within the last few months. 767 F/O slots were filled from guys who were still doing their initial S/O training on the classic (that took 4-5 months thanks to an FE panel endorsement).

[Derfred]

IsDon,

You are mostly correct, however, with respect, if the LOP's in force when they close in a couple of months have insufficient 737 F/O preferences to meet the demand of the training year, then I seriously doubt there is anything in the "awards" (sic) to prevent them offering any applicant a 737 gig.

Even if there were, there's nothing to stop them offering a slot to an applicant 30 seconds after they walk in the door on the first day of their S/O course, which would amount to the same thing except that they couldn't be forced to accept it.

The Company policy of x hours on Company aircraft prior to promotion to F/O is the only impediment I can think of, but I'm pretty sure they could get around that easily.

Given the seniority of recent promotions to the 737, and the proposed number of movements, I would think this is a serious possibility. No-one will know, of course, until all current S/O's (and those approaching age 65) review their LOP's over the next couple of months.

As for "bypassing applicants" (I think that comment was made somewhat in jest), they will employ whatever applicants they choose. You get to do that as an employer (within the bounds of the Discrimination Act). Cadets have no legal privilege to a position over anyone else, but the Company will presumably employ them first unless there is a reason to do otherwise. I would think many cadets would be more than qualified to jump straight to the 737 given the experience they have had over the past several years.

[IsDon]

IsDon,

You are mostly correct, however, with respect, if the LOP's in force when they close in a couple of months have insufficient 737 F/O preferences to meet the demand of the training year, then I seriously doubt there is anything in the "awards" (sic) to prevent them offering any applicant a 737 gig.

Even if there were, there's nothing to stop them offering a slot to an applicant 30 seconds after they walk in the door on the first day of their S/O course, which would amount to the same thing except that they couldn't be forced to accept it.

The Company policy of x hours on Company aircraft prior to promotion to F/O is the only impediment I can think of, but I'm pretty sure they could get around that easily.

Given the seniority of recent promotions to the 737, and the proposed number of movements, I would think this is a serious possibility. No-one will know, of course, until all current S/O's (and those approaching age 65) review their LOP's over the next couple of months.

As for "bypassing applicants" (I think that comment was made somewhat in jest), they will employ whatever applicants they choose. You get to do that as an employer (within the bounds of the Discrimination Act). Cadets have no legal privilege to a position over anyone else, but the Company will presumably employ them first unless there is a reason to do otherwise. I would think many cadets would be more than qualified to jump straight to the 737 given the experience they have had over the past several years.

True to a point Fred. Another possibility is a freeze on the 737. If sufficient numbers to replace those wanting to leave can't be found within the existing ranks with the prerequisite number of hours in company aircraft then this is another option available. Not popular, but possible.

Another point you alluded to is also correct. How many permanent F/Os are turning 65 and wish/need to keep flying? They can't be employed as captains, and they have to go somewhere.

[myshoutcaptain]

Plenty of people with a few thousand hours on qantas owned/leased jets floating around.

:ok:

[IsDon]

Plenty of people with a few thousand hours on qantas owned/leased jets floating around.

:ok:

True. Something I hadn't thought of.

Cross that bridge when we come to it I guess.

[Kiwiconehead]

Plenty of people with a few thousand hours on qantas owned/leased jets floating around.

And Turboprops!!!!!!

[maggot]

True to a point Fred. Another possibility is a freeze on the 737. If sufficient numbers to replace those wanting to leave can't be found within the existing ranks with the prerequisite number of hours in company aircraft then this is another option available. Not popular, but possible.

Another point you alluded to is also correct. How many permanent F/Os are turning 65 and wish/need to keep flying? They can't be employed as captains, and they have to go somewhere.

Yep no bypass provisions or anything like that to prevent being held on the 737. I have almost been caught myself but got off by the skin on my teeth

[Keg]

The qantas group owns/ leases 207s?

[The Green Goblin]

Only C209s from memory keg :)

[sled_driver71]

If Qantas wanted to be strategic with their hiring all they need to do is take a bunch off their competitors turboprop fleet which at the moment have no training approvals what so ever! The fleet would come to a grinding halt........

[rmcdonal]

If Qantas wanted to be strategic with their hiring all they need to do is take a bunch off their competitors turboprop fleet
I always wondered why the big players never did that.
In the past Virgin have recruited from the Link but only in dribs and drabs, taking pilots from elsewhere at the same time, if they had wanted to be brutal in their fight against the competition they could have taken a dozen or so pilots directly from one base and fleet in QLink and done serious damage.
Just imagine if Qantas took 6+ Captains from one fleet and one base in any regional airline and you would see cancellations and panic for months.

Maybe they try to be nice in the hopes that it doesn't then happen to them?

[Iron Bar]

It's actually preferable to have a healthy, rational competitor. So, no Qantas won't do anything to seriously damage Virgin. Think of the consequences if Virgin were damaged to the extent of either reducing size or folding all together. Not good for anyone.

[Keg]

Last info I had was still for the start of the FY.

Rob, maybe it's just about the best candidates available at the time.

[rmcdonal]

It's actually preferable to have a healthy, rational competitor. So, no Qantas won't do anything to seriously damage Virgin. I would agree with you there if I hadn't just watched them claw each others eyes out for the past few years with capacity dumping.
Rob, maybe it's just about the best candidates available at the time.
True, but if you are going to take them anyway, then putting them slightly out of order to affect maximum inconvenience for your competitor would surely be an effective strategy?

BTW I am not suggesting this is a sensible idea.

[Koizi]

Last info I had was still for the start of the FY.

Hey Keg,

Would that be for the ground courses or for the start of the recruitment process?

TIA

[Keg]

Ground courses.

[Capt Fathom]

Keg.
How do you know all this?

[Keg]

Various conversations with various people. The Townsville refueller is best. :ok: :}

I'm all seriousness, if a former cadet on placement with Qlink was starting in 4 weeks we'd know about it here on PPRUNE about 15 minutes (perhaps less) after they got the phone call.

I simply asked someone who should know if there were trainees starting in April and the response was 'no, next FY'. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're not. Maybe it won't be the start of the FY and it'll be a bit later. That's the info I have though.

The numbers thrown around at recent meetings indicate still circa 150 on LWOP to phase back in over the next couple of years. Suspect not all of them will return but that may not be many.

[C441]

Keg's info is on the money from what I've heard too. No specific date was mentioned but June/July was indicated. It was also confirmed at a recent company gathering I attended.

[maggot]

They "wanted" to start the course in april but couldn't get it organised in time or something. Nfi how they couldnt see it coming or squeeze it into the 330 sausage factory considering they're at min capacity awaiting the surge to come

[blumoon]

So reality check for anyone without an LOI or cadet... If most of the cadets come back and courses are around 30 pilots large, it doesnt appear that there would be any external recruitment until end of year at best? Assuming first course in jul'ish?

[mcgrath50]

So reality check for anyone without an LOI or cadet... If most of the cadets come back and courses are around 30 pilots large, it doesnt appear that there would be any external recruitment until end of year at best? Assuming first course in jul'ish?

Back of the beer coaster calculations would suggest and of year as the absolute earliest, probably later. BUT that assumes they are going to clear Cadets/LOI people first. I have heard rumours they will all be mixed in together with new applicants, particularly the cadets, so as not to take too many from Qlink all at once.

Basically, expect DE anytime between now and the end of 2017 :8

[Transition Layer]

There's movement at the station...Letter of Intent holders from back in 08/09 have been getting called/emailed to update details etc.

[Koizi]

Letter of Intent holders from back in 08/09 have been getting called/emailed to update details etc.

Is this first hand? I wonder what happens if details have changed over the years, I know most of mine have.

[Rhodes13]

Same as above, is this actually confirmed? In the same boat all my details have changed.

Was a LOI holder and nothing heard so far.

[Koizi]

Who do we contact?

The million dollar question! Probably no-one at this stage without contradicting their website instructions :)

Were they still doing LOIs in 09? I thought their last ground school was around sept/oct 08, based on when they started pushing other courses back.

[Keg]

I've heard nothing about the LOI holders but it's not a question I've asked. I've not had a chance to have a chat with Captain Lisa Norman (who is heading up the 787 and recruitment team) and find where they're at as far as contacting LOI holders or whether they'll honour them.

They have now sought EOIs for crew to be involved in recruiting/ interviewing so that's another crucial step taken. It's not an answer to the question re LOIs though so sorry about that. Patience though. It's moving forward which is a massive improvement on the last 7 years.

Last course employed have seniority dates of Jan '09.

[Transition Layer]

Info direct from the guy who received the call. Not currently employed by QLink but was back when he got the Loi. Not sure if that changes things.

Sorry I don't know anymore than that people...good luck with it all!

[annon]

Ok,
thought I'd add my 2 cents, all based on fact.
Qlink have around 65 QF cadets and LOI holders. We were all asked to update out details between the 2-7 March on a QF website. When the Qlink CP was asked recently when these people would be leaving Qlink, he said that hiring for QF would start mid year (June). He mentioned first of all they would be trying to get guys back off LWOP and then be looking at cadets/LOI's. He also said that he has been in discussion with the CP at Qantas and that IF the Cadets and LOI's were bypassed (earlier ground schools) by direct hires to Qantas because Qlink can't release them that the Cadets/LOI's would not loose out.

Don't know how this will be done but thats the best, and most factual info I have at the moment.

[maggot]

Oooh i can hear the controversy brewing already
Loa161 wasnt it?

[*Lancer*]

It's theoretically possible by employing straight onto LWOP.

Similarly with the Direct Entry 737 rumour: The 737 FO slot could be awarded immediately to a new hire SOT. Also Post-Ansett there were a number of type rated pilots employed to operate temporarily in a higher category.

[neville_nobody]

After hearing many horror stories of both direct entry pilots and cadets getting royally screwed by Qantas Recruiting if I was one of those guys I'd almost be considering a pre-emptive resignation from Qlink just so you dont get stuffed around a second time. QF works on seniority so you want to be in the queue as soon as possible.

[Koizi]

Qlink have around 65 QF cadets and LOI holders. We were all asked to update out details between the 2-7 March on a QF website

Ahh, so that explains why non-Qlink LOI holders have yet to hear anything.

[DirectAnywhere]

Oooh i can hear the controversy brewing already. Loa161 wasnt it?
Wait until the JQ pilots start exercising their rights under the MOU while QF guys who have been SOs for nearly 10 years get pushed further from promotion. 12-18 months from now those numbers will probably get you an FO slot on a 330 in Sydney or Melbourne under the LH EA which is much more pleasant than the JQ one.

[IsDon]

Wait until the JQ pilots start exercising their rights under the MOU while QF guys who have been SOs for nearly 10 years get pushed further from promotion. 12-18 months from now those numbers will probably get you an FO slot on a 330 in Sydney or Melbourne under the LH EA which is much more pleasant than the JQ one.

I'm not an expert in the MOU, but those JQ guys senior enough to access the MOU for positions in mainline are now the very top of the JQ seniority list.

While it is certainly true these guys have the ability to come across from the dark side, it would mean giving up commands to do so. Some even 787 commands I expect, without knowing the exact demographic of those involved, just their relative seniority.

This will probably be an attractive option for some. Certainly those mainline MOU guys recently returning from A320 commands in JQ and finding themselves as A380 S/Os with the prospect of promotion in the short term are happy to be back. That said, it may not result in a flood of defectors. Some may be happy with their lot in JQ and stay.

I must admit I'm a little amused by the irony of the shoe now being on the other foot. Those more junior JQ crew who had a little sook when they witnessed A320 commands going to mainline MOU guys instead of them are about to benefit, albeit indirectly, from those very senior JQ guys leaving under the MOU for mainline. Combine that with the QF MOU guys returning and it should mean more commands for them within JQ.

[Iron Bar]

JQ MOU?

The MOU is not a right that can be enforced or demanded. It's an agreed method for pilots to move from one airline to another when both sides are willing to facilitate it. You can't just say, "Qantas are training and I want my MOU slot now."

I can't see a JQ - QF MOU opportunity coming up, but you never know, the upcoming QF training allocation is going to be "interesting". I would rather see something for the junior JQ pilots, a LWOP opportunity similar to the Q pilots perhaps.

[maggot]

Mou? Time to start a darwin base I guess

[Iron Bar]

Nah, been tried before, didn't work out well ........ :)

[maggot]

Was too well enjoyed. Oops

[bdcer]

Yes, until some %^*# accepted a slot in DRW & then proceeded to try and undo the base.

[maggot]

There'll always be one