Overhead locker injury BA

[4Greens]

The papers are reporting another overhead locker injury on BA. A passenger has been injured quite badly.

The max weight allowed was quoted as 25kg. This is almost inconceivable, will do some research.

[4Greens]

Just checked the BA website and limit is 23kg which is the same as checked baggage !

[bbrown1664]

heavy items are meant to go under the seat.

[4Greens]

That wouldn't worry a weight lifter. It needs a lot more control from cabin crew.

[PC767]

It's often too late for cabin crew to take action. Passengers checking in online make their first contact with BA staff at the boarding gate. The ground staff at BA are seriously reduced and facing constant demotivational change. Getting large heavy bags off passengers at the gate causes delays which are attributed to the ground staff. Better to let the bags onboard and allow the cabin crew to have any blame for delay attributed to them. Departmental targets equal a broken approach to the required end result. A safe on time departure.

I have moved bags forward to be off-loaded only to find the door closed and the jetty retreating from the aircraft in the rush to sit in a queue for take off. Nobody wants the blame for a delay attributed to their department.

[4Greens]

Look as though weight limit should be reduced and carry on bags weighed at the final check in for embarkation at the gate.

[601]

The papers are reporting another overhead locker injury on BA

How did they determine the extent of the injury to the locker?
X-ray
MRI
Ctscan

[ZFT]

This should never become a cabin crew issue and underseat stowage is not the answer unless I'm travelling on different (BA ) aircraft!

Sensible but enforced weight limits at SECURITY checks are IMHO the place to address this. If you're overweight you get sent back to check in which is the correct place to sort it out, not once on board.

[jack11111]

Security seems to me a poor place to enforce baggage weight restrictions.

[Momoe]

Take a hard look at the reason folk are carrying on >20kg "hand baggage".

Baggage slows you down, post 9/11 security has increased transit time through the airport drastically - no-one wants to spend any more time than they have to as part of the process.

Airlines are incentivizing SLF to not check in bags (especially Lo-Co's).

If you want to be serious about enforcing carry-on limitations, then you need to take a look at the amount of time spent in the airport and manage it more efficiently. How long does it take to ascertain that an item of luggage is oversize/overweight, initially might cause some problems but once SLF realise that rules will be applied, there will be diminishing returns..

So speed up the the baggage handling process, don't penalize SLF for checking in normal luggage, enforce the rules and/or re-introduce sensible limits.

There is the distinct possibility that by standardizing luggage and enforcing carry-on rules, departure times might be positively impacted.

Or alternatively you can have the bean counters work out how many personal injury claims it takes to offset the savings.

[bafanguy]

Law suit to follow shortly ?

[wiggy]

How did they determine the extent of the injury to the locker?
X-ray
MRI
Ctscan


Dunno:ok:

As for the passenger being "injured quite badly" ("seriously injuried" according to one account) Some reports went onto to say that he/she had recovered enough to leave for BKK on a flight the morning following the accident.........

[ZFT]

Jack,

Security seems to me a poor place to enforce baggage weight restrictions. With internet, self check in and the like, where else do you suggest before the bag gets on board?

[cats_five]

People also use carry-on luggage because they are fed up of luggage getting rifled in some countries & airports. I was amazed when I visited the US how much people carried on, was told this was partly why. I was flying Continental.

[wiggy]

With internet, self check in and the like, where else do you suggest before the bag gets on board?

We actually don't know if this passenger was hit by an overweight/oversize bag, and whether or not it belonged to the victim.

Given the specifics of this flight - at LHR T5 everbody's hand baggage should be screened for size before conformance (i.e. going airside) and again at the gate....if you have two item the smaller items get a natty little yellow tag meaning you should put it under the seat in front....

As PC767 has said the backstop is the gate staff....

FWIW I have very recently seen a (BA) flight delayed to put hand baggage in the hold. If the commander doesn't sign the paperwork until handbaggage issues have been resolved it's kind of difficult for the ground staff to do a runner and pull the steps/jetty :ok:

[Hotel Tango]

The only problem with some of the "bright" ideas posters come up with is that it would add an extra hour to board an A380! As someone mentioned above, in recent times more and more airlines (including those legacy carriers who began to charge seperately for hold baggage) have encouraged passengers to travel with carry-on only. Consequently I place the blame squarely on them. Oh, and it should not in any way be the concern of the security personnel. Their heads are big enough as it is!

[Cough]

wiggy.

Agree with you, but it doesn't even matter if the Capt has signed and they have pulled the steps. They simply have to be returned to the A/C side for excess baggage to be relocated. After all, the Capt doesn't have to release the brakes!

[energysaver]

Longer term solution maybe...

Why not redesign future aircraft interiors and put the luggage lockers under the seats....

#justsayin

[Prober]

As an aside to all this, I recall an incident many years ago now, when the pax were queuing on the tarmac (in the heat!) and the engineer tripped over someone’s briefcase. He was puzzled that the briefcase seemed to be screwed to the ground and called me to check. It weighed a ton and was full of gold jewellery. The courier seemed a fairly slight chap but actually was a weight-lifter. We had to get load spreaders for the hold and I have often wondered what would have happened had it gone into an overhead locker, which was the original intention.:E:{
Prober

[Reverserbucket]

Slightly different angle on this but has anyone noticed the max load placard on the inside of the bins? At 23Kg a bag I can tell you that with three or more in say, an A320 bin that figure is likely to be exceeded by some margin. And those bins are attached to the structure of the aircraft...

[4Greens]

As a start just get the Authorities to require a reduction in weight. 15 kg would do for an initial change.

[G-CPTN]

Some years ago, there was an instance where many coin dealers were flying to a 'convention' (where they could also trade coins).
Apparently, the cabin baggage was significantly 'overweight' as each trader was carrying as much as they could lift in their hand luggage.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Carry on bags in NZ are only 7kgs :eek:

And they actually do check the weight of them prior to customs.
As soon as you walk through the doors, there is a person standing there with a set of scales. If your bags look like they are over 7kgs, they will stop you and ask to weigh the bags. If they are over, back down to check in you go.

Works quite well and no long queues. Quite a few heavy bags slip by but for the most part, the extreme ones are stopped.

[dsc810]

A while back I've been asked at Southampton when checking in to put my hold baggage on Scales...
and then to put the hand baggage on as well to check it is within the weight limits specified.

[Hotel Tango]

Weighing hand baggage at check-in is only effective to a point. If one is being seen off by friends or family it's easy to make sure your hand baggage weighs in below limits whilst someone else holds the offending extra kilos of stuff out of sight.

[TWT]

Domestic carry-on limit with TAM in Brazil is 5kg.But,on the 2 flights I took,there didn't seem to be anyone checking weights.

[esa-aardvark]

Is there a possibility of overloading the overhead lockers ?
I have often wondered.

[NSEU]

I was chastised at the check-in at Narita for having a heavy cabin bag. All I had in it was a small Macbook with power adaptors, an SLR and smaller camera, an electric toothbrush and a spare pair of shoes. Surely this isn't excessive?

Having said that, the single most weighty item was the (wheeled) cabin bag itself. I see how this alone could cause injury, especially if it fell on a seated passenger. Do we ban these?

[WingNut60]

Precisely! When carry-on becomes wheel-it-on this immediately implies HEAVY.
And why every six year-old needs one for a two hour flight beggars belief.

[edmundronald]

Let me see. Every checked bag is xrayed for security and any stuff like laptops, cameras etc gets stolen by the handlers who have compulsory access. My camera stuff weighs 5 kgs, my laptop and ipad 4kg, how am I supposed to travel with a 7kg carry on?

BTW I would be ready to travel naked and even wait for luggage, thereby minimizing security searches, if the airline made a real effort to get my winter coat laptop and camera to wherever I am going.

Edmund

[llondel]

It's all very well weighing bags early in the process, but what about those who load up in the duty-free shop? It is trivial to circumvent a check-in weight, and speaking personally, if I've got a mid-afternoon flight then I may well be carrying lunch with me at check-in. Although it's going to make the flight, it's not going to be in the carry-on bag when I board the aircraft.

What would be far more use is an early size check, on the basis that some of what I see in the boarding queue is really taking the piss when it comes to size. If there has to be a weight check, it needs to be in the run-up to boarding, by which time all stuff to be carried on should have been acquired. It might also make the flight safer, by giving the flight crew a more accurate weight for carry-on.

[601]

Security seems to me a poor place to enforce baggage weight restrictions.

One problem is that one could have different weight allowances depending on the airline.
The weight limits for carry-on baggage are clearly shown on the tickets - 7Kg in OZ.
Ensure the baggage (size and weight) are within limits at the boarding gate.
If the SLF cannot stick within the limits for the baggage, leave the overweight/oversize baggage behind to travel as freight on the next service. Been there, done that.

Once it happens a few times, "social media" will spread the word quickly.

[oliver2002]

Some A32S bin latches are only rated for 32KG (total) so many (European) airlines restrict handluggage to 8KG max/piece. BA is not one of them for some reason.

LX in ZRH and OS in VIE has G4S security staff standing before security and sending you to check-in your bag when overweight.

[RF4]

Despite all the discussion, we really do not know what happened, nor the nature of the problem.

Firstly, was the carry-on overweight? Did the injury occur while the SLF or member of the CC was placing it in the overhead ? Did they lose their grip and drop the carry-on bag ? Was the injury to the owner of the bag, or to some unfortunate soul who was already seated under the bin ? -- and finally, did this occur during boarding, while in flight ( bin collapse or cover failure) or during deplaning ? Each of these questions can lead to a very different discussion. Does anyone know ?

While asking if anyone knows, how do they handle an FAA approved oxygen concentrator in OZ ? The smallest I have seen is about 8 kg and is approved as cabin luggage, if required by the passenger, in most of the world.

[wiggy]

did this occur during boarding, while in flight ( bin collapse or cover failure) or during deplaning

The original BA incident certainly happened prior to departure. Some media reports say the aircraft was taxiing, BA sources say it wasn't.

[mary meagher]

Away back in December 1970, my family moved from Berkeley California to Britain. My oldest son had learned to scuba dive in California, and insisted on bringing his diving kit, including the weight belt! it didn't go in the overhead, however, he just wore it under his jacket.....

[4Greens]

The best place to check the weight is as you are checked to go on board in the Departure Lounge.

[hoss183]

It strikes me that the bigger problem is the unknown total weight and balance of the aircraft. Since there is a significant amount of this unweighed baggage entering the AC. Its one thing to estimate it, but if you have a coin convention or a dive trip (see below) it could be significant.

I have used this trick myself as a diver on a low cost airline. Put the heavy stuff in my hand luggage (regulators, torches etc) and i end up with a 14kg hand luggage and a 20kg hold luggage. Thus avoiding the ridiculous sports equipment charges.

The problem is that people find a way to make systems work for them.

I would say its sensible to limit the size (to something like a small backpack, satchel) and weight to 5kg (no wheels), and increase the hold luggage back to 23/25kg as it used to be.
Its enough to allow the valuables to be carried, and mothers to look after kids.

I also think the carriage of alcohol in bins should be stopped. Hundreds of litres of flammable liquid in the cabin. I forget which accident it was, but it was highlighted as causing accelerated spread of fire and death in at least one case.

[Off Stand]

Having worked for said airline, the hang luggage size/weight has been an on going issue. The company is scared of upsetting it's pax (particularly it's gold card holders) and as such seem is very lenient with what is let on board. The numbers of gate staff has gradually reduced, so they (not all, some are very proactive) struggle to police what is coming on board. Many a time, the crew are left with numerous wheelie bags in the galley during boarding on the A320 family due to a lack of space. The procedure is for the dispatcher (TRM) to close the door, remove the airbridge, then reattach the airbridge and open the door to off load bags, this making it a handing delay. However, many a time, the airbridge doesn't come back.

I flew with American Eagle a couple of years ago, only the agent boarding the flight, yet she managed to check every passengers' item of hand luggage and tagged that was too big, impressive.

Another issue is 'hand baggage only' fares. So, pax bring on their worldly possessions, some of them look like buckaroo.

Then you have those who have connected off from a 747/777/A380 and think that their crate will fit into the locker of a A319.

I hope that the passenger recovered and I hope that the airline will finally start looking into more strict guidelines.

[slowjet]

When bean-counters started charging for hold baggage,the encouragement is to stuff as much as you can into the cabin. When you start having to place cabin baggage under the seat in front because it won't fit or there is no room in the overhead, compromised safety is surely an issue ? Try fast evacuation with bags impeding your exit . Someone else alluded to the weight issue. Just how heavy is your aircraft these days ? Tons of stuff in the cabin, not correctly shown on the load-sheet. And all this, traced back to greedy companies charging for hold-baggage.

Just booked up for my Xmas break. Airline states check-in at reception compulsory, no prior "on-line" nonsense. Hold baggage goes free. Meal provided. ICAO limitation on hand-baggage. All this for not much more than the cheapo flights with all the add-ons. Sheer joy. I am going to use this company over and over and over again !

[MaxReheat]

This is O'leary's and his like's legacy to the air passenger; aircraft flying around with empty holds (to which the ground handler still has to come to even if there's only 1 bag in it) while the cabin resembles Asda on 'Black Friday'. It's a scene of frustrated passengers, stress levels rising, trying to squeeze their oversized and overweight bags (which should be in the hold) into any available orifice while the poor cabin crew trying to impose some form of order.

At first, allocated seating bit the dust in the name of egalitarianism (read free-for-all and survival of the fittest). One line of code in the booking system was all that was required to bring it back and look at how well it works (again).

Having said that, have you noticed how the locos have conditioned passenger behavior. Even with allocated seats passengers (even BA passengers who never had to endure the stampede to the aircraft steps) stand in a queue at the gate for 30mins plus before the flight is even called.

Why? Because they know that there will be an ensuing fight for overhead locker space.

The revival of allocated seating can happen for hold luggage. There will always be a need for those in a hurry to get through the airport as quickly as possible hence a need for sensibly sized and weighted carry-on but I'd suggest that for the majority, the option to put bags in the hold, free of charge, should be reintroduced and the first airline, particularly a loco, that does this will reap rewards.

There are no really cheap fares these days and a pound or two on a fare (which is an unknown variable in any case) would help alleviate the problem.

[slowjet]

Max, There is a roar of "here here" in the house !

[Hotel Tango]

Max, There is a roar of "here here" in the house !

Absolutely!

[RF4]

BA seem to be staying very quiet about the entire matter. Presumably, they do not wish to infer that they have any responsibility in the matter, either from their ludicrous 23 kg allowance or defective overhead bin latch,

I'm sure that they are ready to once again offer the bottle of whisky, which they offered as compensation to the LHR to YYC passenger, whose seat broke during climbout from LHR. After having to spend much of that flight on his feet, that passenger declined the bottle as an "insult".

[Mr Optimistic]

The industry doesn't help itseft in having such big lockers. On short haul do away with them and have a storage area at the back of the cabin. Works on train journeys when you have baggage.

[paulc]

When airlines can 100% guarantee that my camera (1 body 2 lenses so not excessive by any means) and laptop will get to my destination undamaged and all present only then would it ever go in the hold. My camera bag will fit in the overhead bin on all the types I regularly fly on inc Embraer 135 / 145.

Airlines encourage people to bring as much as they into the cabin by charging for hold baggage. Yet always state not to put valuable items in the hold - catch 22.

[ExXB]

And let's not forget that the airlines assume NO liability for loss or damage to fragile items or valuables. T&C's expressly forbid you to place these in your checked luggage.

It seems they have dumbed down the checked baggage process to the extent that they cannot trust their own staff, or outsourced staff, not to steal from their customers.

And they charge an arm and a leg (much higher than their own -45/100kg freight charges) for the privilege of checking a bag.

They have only got themselves to blame.

[601]

The revival of allocated seating can happen for hold luggage. There will always be a need for those in a hurry to get through the airport as quickly as possible hence a need for sensibly sized and weighted carry-on but I'd suggest that for the majority, the option to put bags in the hold, free of charge, should be reintroduced and the first airline, particularly a loco, that does this will reap rewards.

There are no really cheap fares these days and a pound or two on a fare (which is an unknown variable in any case) would help alleviate the problem.

From Virgin Australia
Saver fares include complimentary food, a selection of beverages and one piece of baggage up to 23kg.

And 7Kg carry on baggage

[Gove N.T.]

Some years ago I made comments to the Baggage Management people of an American Carrier which transferred their pax onto our flights. Our carrier and their's had different cabin baggage allowances. The response was that their allowance was high for competitive reasons and if their over head could accommodate. If we didn't allow the same then it was our problem. So it's competition first and passenger safety second, although that would be denied.
The "Fragile and valuable" escape is a scam too. Define "Valuable." To me, a £200 camera is valuable but to a wealthy bloke, it's small change.
As I mentioned in my original posting which wasn't published in Pprune, some US carriers say at if you can't lift your bag into the overhead and it's too large to fit underneath, then it gets checked. I am not a gentleman when watching a woman struggling with her bag, then turning and looking pathetic. Your problem lady.

[bbrown1664]

Only one bag should be allowed (per pax) in the overheads. If you bring more than one, you lose your foot space, not me.

If you cant lift it above your head, its too heavy and should be under the seat. Your problem, not mine.

If its too heavy for you to carry and needs to be dragged along with wheels, it is too heavy and needs to be with the checked luggage

Quite simple rules really but common sense doesn't apply all the time airlines charge for checked bags.

[Piltdown Man]

The totally predictable and entirely understandable consequence of charging for hold baggage is for passengers to attempt to take it as hand baggage. As ever, most passengers don't read the conditions (who does?) and check-in and gate staff are given nothing but hassle when they try to control excessive baggage. The problem is then transferred to the cabin. This results in arguments with "space invaders" (those who place their bags anywhere), delays, missed slots, missed connections and worst of all, injuries like those described earlier.

Solutions available are 1. Enforce the carry on policies or 2. Re-consider the charge for hold baggage. But no airline wants to be the first to do this (airline marketing people are not known for their strength of character or backbone). I just hope we don't injure too many people before we sort out this mess.

My part in the process to support check-in, gate staff and cabin crew whenever they have to deal with excessive baggage. I'm not going to go flying with carry on baggage which has not been properly stowed. But in doing so I annoy those people who have stuck to the limits who I delay and really p!ss off those who try to put hold baggage in the cabin. Fortunately I'm not paid for popularity.

So until we do the job properly (whichever route is chosen) this problem will be with us for the foreseeable future. Welcome to the race to the bottom.

PM

[davebham]

I'm so glad others have noted this issue with unweighed baggage. A couple of years ago on a BA flight from EWR back to the UK, I was appalled how much hand luggage (by hand luggage I actually mean big heavy suitcases) was being allowed on - especially as you can check at least 1 23kg suitcase into the hold.

BA didn't seem to be enforcing their own rules, and when we boarded the 777, crew were really struggling to find spaces for the passengers stuff. I even saw 1 passenger dragging 3 items on board.

I'd be more than happy to see this policy strictly enforced. I've seen easyjet crew enforce this effectively on passengers as they board, so I'm sure BA could.

[glad rag]

I was once asked [by a lady who had firmly planted herself in the aisle as she was in the second row of seats from the front] if I wouldn't mind getting her "luggage" down from the overhead...

IT WAS A :mad: POTPLANT

Approx 3' bent in there, spilling loam all over the place with one of those thick heavy painted planters, "hang on says I, I'll just try from this side; nope; see ya !"

:ugh::hmm::ugh::hmm::ugh:

[Roadster280]

Don't shoot the messenger, but as I see it there are two reasons why people take the urine with carry-ons.

1. Many airlines discourage hold baggage by the fees they charge. Passengers are motivated by the airline's policies to check nothing in. Some are entirely free up to two bags (eg Southwest), but many charge for hold bags.

2. In the US, airlines are hub/spoke operations, so unless you live close to a hub, you will be connecting. People want to take their bags with them so they make the tight connections. A small delay on the first flight would very possibly mean that checked bags would not make the second flight. As an illustration of this, the crew's bags are always in the cabin, never checked. If the crew's bags are important, so are the passengers'.

[WillowRun 6-3]

No pretense here of solving the various problems which beset the stowage and carriage of baggage of airline passengers. Rather, a look back to the past, and a question about something that might work, maybe.
Many years back, a mere lad of schoolboy age, I relished the carrying of a hanging garment bag when I traveled - always in coach, never in First Class - and politely asking (well, mostly politely) a "stewardess" -- that is what they were called then -- if I could hang the garment bag in the little closet-like space typically either at the front door of the cabin or at the back of the First Class section. (As a debate team member I often traveled with sport jackets and so on, hence the bag.)
I'd be willing to wager that service-members in most any sub-branch of the Armed Forces of any NATO or similarly allied country, traveling today on a C-17 or similar transport, don't worry too much about where their duffels and other equipage gets stowed. They don't need much in the way of advance reservations and they also (with rare and incidental exceptions, I suppose) have and use sufficient self-reliance. Maybe the airlines should start treating passengers like troops. You know, when was something that defies common sense ever excusable in uniform?

(Hat, gloves, under the desk)

[RatherBeFlying]

Now that fees are charged for checked baggage, we can use the pax instead of rampies to load the hold;)

Pax with large baggage board through the hold
Stow baggage in hold
When leaving hold subjected to strict check for bags not allowed in cabin - leave them in hold.
First to deposit baggage in hold is last in hold on arrival

[kaikohe76]

Re post by PC767
You report to the Captain of the aircraft, that the aircraft is not ready for either taxy or take off, due to a flight safety situation. He then requires, that the air bridge is returned to the aircraft & the offending baggage is off loaded!

[ExSp33db1rd]

My camera stuff weighs 5 kgs, my laptop and ipad 4kg, how am I supposed to travel with a 7kg carry on?

Air NZ's 7kg is unrealistic, my 30 yr. old cabin bag, that I have no intention of changing, weighs 4 kg empty, and I take the bare minimum into the cabin, passports, tickets, money, etc. etc. is carried in a voluminous shirt with large packets sold by a travel company for that purpose, so I usually pass the cabin bag Gestapo check - and believe me, they do check, as has been mentioned.

10 kg would probably be more realistic.

Mind you - Air NZ do also print that one is allowed a laptop and "reading material" in addition, so there is room for a bit of a fiddle factor there. ( large tomes hollowed out ? )