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Air Atlanta Slave
20th Jun 2002, 21:50
Forgive me if I'm wrong but perhaps you techies out there might help me with this one. What do your MEL 's say about operating an a/c without a database in the FMC that reflects the area that you are operating in? Possibly like having a phone book for down town Tokyo when in Seattle. I know most MEL's say you can have an out of date database as long as special proc. etc. etc. and no more than 10 days elapse etc. But having a database covering Siberia when operating in North America is really not having a database at all ,would you not agree? No database is not a deferrable item and is therefore no go. Am I barking up the wrong tree or what ? Any info would be greatly appreciated

downfourgreen
21st Jun 2002, 02:15
An FMS may be out of currency (or lack of it) provided:
1- Current aeronautical charts are used to verify navigation fixes prior to dispatch.
2- Procedures are established and used to verify status and suitability of navigation facilities used to define route of flight.
3- Navigation radios are manually tuned and identified.
4- Step-by-step insertion and/or verification of waypoint coordinates based on aeronautical charts and flight plan.
5- Revision of dep/arr procedures and legs pages with current dep/app charts. In case of disagreement use manual/raw data based on the "old" ground navigation infrastructure as the primary and solely mean of navigation (back to basics).

411A
21st Jun 2002, 03:18
In addition, if you are using GPS as your primary navigation, the data base MUST absolutely be current, otherwise...not legal.

Slick
21st Jun 2002, 03:43
I believe it would so much depend on area of operation, but considering most of Europe I believe you are correct for the en-route phase of flight. I will stick my neck out further and suggest that having airport dep/arr/app procedures in the DB is not a requirement, I'm just thinking of all the airports I have been to where this has been the case.

saddest aviator
21st Jun 2002, 13:08
downfourgreens, I dont think you are quite right when you say (or lack of a database) Lack of is completely different to out of currency . At least with an out of date database covering your operational area the FMC is able to DME update ,have fixes ,Nav data etc . Not having a database at all ,if not mentioned by the MEL surely is a no go

downfourgreen
21st Jun 2002, 15:38
Iíve not been flying Boeing airplanes lately but I am sure that absence of database isnít a no-go item.
Based on my previous experience, I can recall:
1- If the permanent nav database does not contain the desired stored waypoint(s), then new (previously unstored) created waypoints can be defined by the crew.
2- Alternatively, created waypoints can also be initially defined using crew-assigned identifiers on either the SUPP/REF NAV DATA pages. This method allows waypoints to be defined in any of FMC categories (waypoints, navaids or airports). Several entries can be stored in either data base (I donít remember but at least 40 waypoints/navaids and 6 airports) and when any storage category is full, entries which are no longer required should be deleted by the crew to make space for additional new entries.
In short, weíve already flown wide-body airplanes around the world (years ago...ops! Until now) equipped with an old Litton INS with only 9 wpt spaces available. I know it should not be used as a routine task and there is a lot of extra work to prepare the FMC to show a magenta line on ND but surely they will not keep an airplane parked waiting for a new database.

Last but not least: Nowadays, flights from Asia to the USA have been routinely made via PACOTS. Those tracks are flexible, updated everyday, usually no company route is provided for such routes, and waypoints are not stored in database as well. Therefore pilots must insert every oceanic waypoint one by one and check them prior to departure.

saddest aviator, I've tried to say "lack of data base", sorry.

Capn Laptop
21st Jun 2002, 23:11
In Dunnunda there is nothing stopping you from going without a nav database.

Good practice says predicate your navigation on conventional navaids if the database is missing rather than expired.

Where the currency of a database becomes an issue is when operating below the LSA/MSA - even for GPS...

wickerman
25th Jun 2002, 17:10
....ran out of database in our 757 just past Ankara and generated all the other waypoints manually with Lat/longs to our destination, for which we had the chart and the plates.
Even if Lnav and Vnav are not available you can still surely fly it raw data/heading select and Flch?
Agree that an out of date database is a stopper.
Got the charts, got the vor's,GO!

Air Atlanta Slave
1st Jul 2002, 21:09
Spoke to an expert on the subject and yes while some of the respondents to this subject have said how to cope with the fact that the database is out of area ,or out of date. We should know we fly the damn aircraft . THAT IS WHAT WE ARE PAID TO DO! but.......... Would you fly on one engine intentionally? Accept that you should conduct a single engine ferry because the aircraft will fly on one engine, NO! QUOTE"Two crew aircraft were certified as such because the equipment installed ,eg FMC auto updating, waypoints in a Database all reduce cockpit workload to allow the a/c to be flown by just two dumb pilots."
WHAT AAI HAVE DONE IS DELIBERATELY DOWNGRADED THE CAPABILITY OF THE AIRCRAFT BY NOT HAVING A DATABASE THAT COVERS THE OPERATING AREA...... ALL BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PREPARED TO PAY HONEYWELL TO SUPPLY THE REQUIRED DATABASE. to my mind gents there is no possible excuse for this type of behavior

411A
1st Jul 2002, 22:57
NOT all that unusual for Air Atlanta Icelandic..:rolleyes:

mutt
2nd Jul 2002, 04:13
411A, are there ANY companies that you have positive comments about?

AirAtlantaSlave

Since when are Classic B747's fitted with FMC's? I thought that they had PMS or PPS systems with manually inserted waypoints?

Mutt.

411A
2nd Jul 2002, 05:57
Mutt,

I will give you just a small example of why AAI is suspect.

In 1998, some of the TriStars were fitted with GPS equipment (Trimble 8100). On the first installation, the HSI dis-agreed with the selected course by ninety degrees (to port) due to an incorrect installation and interface. AAI "maintenance" was UNABLE to correct the problem, and it had to be corrected by one rather intelligent F/E by accessing the maintenance pages, and a correct display was the result.
On later flights, it was discovered that AAI maintenance techs had accessed the relevant maintenance page, and returned the display to "port 90"....:rolleyes:

Two of the TriStars had dual Litton LTN-72R INS units installed. As RNP required radio update for these units, the relevant hardware was installed. It tested fine on the ground, but provided NO radio update function in flight . Once again, AAI maintenance could not make the system work, in spite of repeated write-ups.:rolleyes:

In light of the above, I am not at all surprised that correct data bases are allegedly not supplied to 767 aircraft, as reported in a previous post. Maybe the UK CAA needs to take another look.

saddest aviator
3rd Jul 2002, 14:56
Dearest Mutt,
AAI Have been operating B767 for nearly 18 months now. Time to update your Database!:rolleyes: