Russian SU-24 CVR

[Lower Hangar]

Looked around R&N & Mil Av for comments on statement by Russians that they have recovered 'black box' (pictures of CVR) but isnt news !! They also invited West ie Nato to examine it in conjunction with Russian specialists- but none have been forthcoming

Thought crossed my mind :
a Unusual for military a/c to have CVR fitted as std ?!
b Would it reveal voice tx over final minutes of the engagement ?
c Why are we being so coy ?

[SKS777FLYER]

Russian tactical aircraft FDR's.........
Flight data acquisition, control and recording systems
In 1997 year in “Aviaavtomatika” named after V. Tarasov” JSC Design Bureau in association with GosNIIAS first time in Russia was created integrated flight data recording system “KARAT-B” on basis of solid-state protected recorder, functioning as airborne crash recorder and airborne automated control system.
Today development and manufacture of solid-state airborne flight data acquisition, control and recording systems (“black boxes”) – one of the enterprise priority directions of activity.
Recording systems for military aviation
High-technology flight data recording systems and recorders for military aviation are developed and manufactured: KARAT-B-25, KARAT-B-29K, KARAT-B-29K-01, KARAT-B-29K-02, KARAT-B-220, ZBN-T. Systems, conforming to the international standards, are installed on aircraft of Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Yakovlev, Yliushin companies. A range of systems is batch manufactured. Protected airborne recorder ZBN-K is installed on sea craft manufactured by “Almaz” Design Bureau.

[Bleve]

Or maybe NATO suspects that it is fabricated misinformation from the Ruskies and don't want to give them any credibility.

[papazulu]

Or maybe NATO suspects that it is fabricated misinformation from the Ruskies and don't want to give them any credibility.

Ahhhh...gotta love those whiter-than-white unbiased opinion, right? George Junior and Bigotted Tony docet...

PZ :mad:

[Courtney Mil]

Even some fast jets, Lower Hangar. We had a CVR in the Tornado F3. ADRs or FDRs standard fit across the board. And, yes, if Su-24 has a CVR, it will have recorded cockpit voice and RT.

[glad rag]

Offer total BS,

Would have to offer encryption keys to West for voice data.

Go figure.

gr

[PersonFromPorlock]

Something I still haven't been able to find out is if the SU-24, whose original electronics date back to the Cold War, may still have had radios that blocked 121.5/243.0. My information is that the Soviets filtered NATO guard channels to make it harder for pilots to defect. That might explain both the lack of response to repeated warnings, and Russian denial that warnings were given at all.

Any old SU-24 drivers out there?

[27mm]

Comrade, I tell you after flying Su-24, all of us old! Na Zdrovye!

[BEagle]

Perhaps there'll be the Russian equivalent of "Stitch that!" on the CVR....:sad:

[AreOut]

Something I still haven't been able to find out is if the SU-24, whose original electronics date back to the Cold War, may still have had radios that blocked 121.5/243.0. My information is that the Soviets filtered NATO guard channels to make it harder for pilots to defect. That might explain both the lack of response to repeated warnings, and Russian denial that warnings were given at all.

Any old SU-24 drivers out there?

I have such information too, not that it was blocked but they didn't listen to that frequency at all because they didn't expect communication with turkish planes.

It was a routine bombing run, or supposed to be...

[peter we]

Or maybe NATO suspects that it is fabricated misinformation from the Ruskies and don't want to give them any credibility

It also gives credibility to the notion that the Russians accidentally crossed the border, that the Russians are our allies, 'partners' or peers.

The reality is the Russians repeatedly overflew the border on a regular basis and deliberately ignored radio and multiple diplomatic warning over a period of two months.

Nato and Russia, by mutual consent, are enemies and this event is part of Russia's hybrid war fare against Nato.

The contents of the CVR are irrelevant in that context.

[PersonFromPorlock]

I have such information too, not that it was blocked but they didn't listen to that frequency at all because they didn't expect communication with turkish planes.My recollection (which is from almost forty years ago) is that Soviet-era radios were physically incapable of operating on the Western 'guard' channels. So it wouldn't matter if they wanted to monitor them or not, if the radios hadn't received a post-Soviet update.

But be aware that at this late date, I may be dealing with a false memory.

[dazdaz1]

Just a thought, might it be possible that Turkish radar presumed the SU 24 was a Syrian a/c?

[AreOut]

The reality is the Russians repeatedly overflew the border on a regular basis

any proof? The problem is that turkey has few months ago unilaterally "extended" its border some 5 miles into Syria as a buffer zone, they don't want any planes in that space while Russia still considers it syrian airspace (which it is).

My recollection (which is from almost forty years ago) is that Soviet-era radios were physically incapable of operating on the Western 'guard' channels. So it wouldn't matter if they wanted to monitor them or not, if the radios hadn't received a post-Soviet update.

This is M2 version of SU24, they have updated radios but pilots still have to choose the frequency.

Just a thought, might it be possible that Turkish radar presumed the SU 24 was a Syrian a/c?

nope, it was only russian planes operating in that zone and turks were full aware of it

[Lonewolf_50]

My recollection (which is from almost forty years ago) is that Soviet-era radios were physically incapable of operating on the Western 'guard' channels. So it wouldn't matter if they wanted to monitor them or not, if the radios hadn't received a post-Soviet update.
When you go back to the Foxbat that V. Belenko flew into Japan, yes, its crystals/radio sets had but a few freqs available to the pilot.

Since the wall came down in 89, the Russians have had 25 years to put in dialable and frequency agile avionics. I won't guess at what they have chosen to do, but a decision to use more flexible kit would not be too hard to make.

[Lonewolf_50]

OUCH!

More fun with Turks and Russians.
Russian Destroyer Fires Shots At Turkish Ship While Transiting The Aegean Sea (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russian-destroyer-fires-shots-at-turkish-ship-while-tra-1747810645)

A Russian Kashin class destroyer seems to have made not bones about how to communicate with a Turkish vessel (reported as a fishing vessel?) due to being with in 2000 yard CPA(perhaps?). (I get the feeling that the Russian Navy has a similar concern to the US Navy when it comes to CPA and risk of collision). The shots were fired across the bow, reportedly, at 1800ft/600 yards range.

I can just see the conversation between the conning officer and the captain.

Sir, Turkish vessel CPA predicted at 400 yds.
That's a bit close LT, raise him on Channel 16
He's not answering sir.
Try the other frequencies on that card.
No reply, sir.
Flash the lights at him, ready mount 31, one practice round.
CPA now looks less than 400 yards sir.
That guy is either an idiot or up to no good. Ready mount 31. Keep calling him.
No reply sir, no change in course by the vessel.
Fire one across his bow and see if it gets his attention.
Mount 31, with one round, fire!
*BOOM*
Turkish vessel changing course to port, sir. CPA opening.
Good. Quartermaster of the Watch, mark the log, I expect to get some radio calls soon ...

[PersonFromPorlock]

This is M2 version of SU24, they have updated radios but pilots still have to choose the frequency.Even so, if the radio doesn't continuously monitor guard channel regardless of what frequency the radio is set to, for all practical purposes they do not have guard capability. This still explains how the Turks could have sent (I assume on guard) what the Russians didn't hear.

[peter we]

any proof? The problem is that turkey has few months ago unilaterally "extended" its border some 5 miles into Syria as a buffer zone, they don't want any planes in that space while Russia still considers it syrian airspace (which it is).

The five times the Turks summonsed the Russian Ambassador and lodged an official complaint.

Also, shooting down the Russian aircraft was proof enough that the Turks were unhappy. A 10 mile exclusion zone was mentioned as normal to avoid incidents, the Russians obviously were not the slightest bit concerned about the consequences.

Turks could have sent (I assume on guard) what the Russians didn't want to hear.

Corrected.

[AreOut]

The five times the Turks summonsed the Russian Ambassador and lodged an official complaint.

so?! it doesn't mean they were right any of those five times (though they possibly were couple of times), because of aforementioned exclusion zone Russians obviously didn't agree with

A 10 mile exclusion zone was mentioned as normal to avoid incidents, the Russians obviously were not the slightest bit concerned about the consequences.

they should set the exclusion zone in their own airspace, what right they have to tell the other country what to do with its airspace?! Syria has legitimate government which summoned Russians to help them, Russia has all the right to fly wherever they want in syrian airspace, other countries not so much.

Turks could have sent (I assume on guard) what the Russians didn't want to hear.

do you seriously believe Russians would go to provoke them with a practically defenseless bomber (even anti-IR pods were not present)?!

[teeteringhead]

There was some mocking of the transcript on a programme one watched recently, as the the transcript seemed to include the words "en garde" suggesting offensive intention.

Despite my shouting at the television, the BBC didn't realise it was (almost certainly ;)) "on Guard"! But hey, that's the BBC :ugh:

[GlobalNav]

"do you seriously believe Russians would go to provoke them with a practically defenseless bomber (even anti-IR pods were not present)?!"

Yes, of course. Russia knew what they were doing and why - they set their own rules, lie about their application of others, and have an agenda all their own.

Why would anyone seriously believe that Russia have sent their airplane (deaf to Guard frequency) where they did in complete ignorance of Turkey's repeated objections and warnings and by "mistake". Oh, I know, the Russian forces have no knowledge of the electromagnetic spectrum, radio frequencies and the such.

Russia deliberately and precisely disrespected Turkey's sovereignty, so that some would argue about 17 seconds and a few kilometers and blame the one that was actually wronged. It was no mistake, no miscalculation and at the expense of the poor Lt Colonel and his family.

It's pure Russian (nee Soviet) behavior to sow chaos, lies and turmoil. Assad fits right into their fold as he welcomes Russia's slaughter of his own people, since he was losing the means to do so himself.

Hopefully the coalition, in spite of Russia's designs, can make progress against the ISIL for the sake of international security, but I see little hope for the population of Syria who remain one way or the other.

[BEagle]

Uh-oh, it seems that the spirit of Joe McCarthy is still alive in the Ooessay...:rolleyes:

Who's that under your bed.....:eek:

[TEEEJ]

AreOut wrote,

do you seriously believe Russians would go to provoke them with a practically defenseless bomber (even anti-IR pods were not present)?!

Why do you think that the Su-24 wasn't carrying flares? See following for location of AAP-50 flare unit on Su-24.

Aircraft Resource at the FARC (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/lomach/aircraft/ru_su24.html)

Link to large image of Su-24.

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SU-24-1.jpg

Plenty of footage of Syrian Su-24 employing them during air strikes. It would be standard practice for the Russians to carry flares to counter MANPADs.

eynmoUzLoBM&feature=related

[Lonewolf_50]

Plenty of footage of Syrian Su-24 employing them during air strikes. It would be standard practice for the Russians to carry flares to counter MANPADs.

eynmoUzLoBM&feature=related
What a beautiful afternoon/evening that was for a flight.

[PersonFromPorlock]

do you seriously believe Russians would go to provoke them with a practically defenseless bomber (even anti-IR pods were not present)?! I'm not speculating about anyone's intentions, only that there may have been a radio capability problem that no one, on either side, had thought about. That could explain, fairly innocently, the Russian non-reception of the guard channel messages the Turks definitely sent. Still misfeasance on the Russians' part if they weren't monitoring guard while operating in the West, of course, but it may not be a part of SU-24 pilots' everyday operational universe.

[AreOut]

"Why do you think that the Su-24 wasn't carrying flares? See following for location of AAP-50 flare unit on Su-24."

because they were pictured without those several times on bombing missions, they carried those at the beginning, then after some time figured out they don't need them(or so they taught) and stopped carrying them

classic soviet complacency

[TEEEJ]

AreOut,

I'm not referring to the optional external chaff/flare unit, but the internally flush mounted units.

The external unit is carried to give increased capacity but that still leaves the internal carriage units. These are flush mounted and either side of the fin.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/lomach/aircraft/pictures/su24m.jpg

Aircraft Resource at the FARC (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/lomach/aircraft/ru_su24.html)

Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC (http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/529/550/)

[Backinblack]

A recent statement by a Turkish official revealing detailed awareness of Russian Air Force sorties in Syria can be regarded as “official acknowledgment” that the operation to down the Su-24 was a planned step, Russia's Ministry of Defense said.


“When on November 24 the Turkish fighter jet treacherously fired a rocket at our Su-24, the Turkish General Staff was perfectly aware about when and where our two bombers would be carrying out their mission,” ministry spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov told journalists on Wednesday. RT qoutes him.


The statement recently made by Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Numan Kurtulmus in which he provides information on Russian sorties in Syria, “can be regarded as official acknowledgment by Turkey that the operation to destroy the Russian jet in Syria and kill Russian soldiers was a planned step,” he said.

Ankara’s awareness of Russian military operations in Syria confirms that all intelligence given to the US under the memorandum signed between the two countries and regulating the operations of their air forces in Syria was passed to the Turkish General Staff, he added.

The Russian Su-24 frontline bomber was brought down by Turkey in response to an alleged violation of Turkish airspace by the Russian aircraft. Both Russian and Syrian defense officials confirmed that the Su-24 never crossed into Turkish airspace, and was illegally downed in Syria. Putin described the Turkish attack as a "stab in the back" carried out by "accomplices of terrorists." One of the plane’s two pilots was killed by rebel gunfire from the ground after they ejected. The second pilot was rescued.

Russia's Ministry of Defense Say Turkey Planned Operation Against Su-24 (http://mil.today/2015/Su-242/)

[ORAC]

BBC: Russia-Turkey crisis: Sukhoi jet black box 'unreadable'

Data on the flight recorder of the Russian war plane downed by Turkey last month has so far proved to be unreadable, Russia's military has said. It said the memory chips from the Su-24 bomber downed on the Syrian border were destroyed or badly damaged.

The Russians had hoped to prove the plane never entered Turkish airspace, as claimed by Ankara. Work will continue to try to retrieve the data.

The Russian military representatives presented their preliminary findings in Moscow on Monday, after opening the "black box" on Friday in the presence of international experts.

Some 13 of the 16 chips had been destroyed, while x-ray tests on the others showed extracting information would be impossible using normal methods......

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/F656/production/_87326036_87325649.jpg

[Radix]

.............

[Just This Once...]

There are loads of radar systems recording tracks in that area, from multiple systems from multiple countries. Some of these feed into the same network and shared live, others are independent.

There is a very good reason why none of these countries have cried foul with the Turkish side of the story, even if one or 2 of those countries have no great friendship with Turkey.

[AreOut]

but how precise are those radars at such distance?! We are talking here about very minor violation.

I think it would be very hard for either side to conclusively prove the plane has violated(or not) the airspace, on the other side we have turkish admission the rocket hit the plane while it was in syrian airspace and we know where it fell...

they would have hard time proving the rocket was fired while it was in turkish airspace (and if it was at all)