A.S.T. Perth (Scone) 1966

[Chris Scott]

Half a century ago, Airwork Services Training was second only to Hamble in the U.K. as a flying school approved by HMG for training civil pilot-cadets for CPL & IR. We were a minority on the campus, because the school also trained aero-engineering students. Elstree was already providing minor competition for commercial pilot training, IIRC, but Oxford and Carlisle didn't start until later.

The school principal was W/Cmdr (ret'd) "Pooch" Nugent and the CFI was Bob Critchley. The course from ab-initio to CPL and IR cost something over £4000 (yes, four thousand pounds). That included board and lodging, ground school, and about 150 hours on singles (Cessna 150s and DHC-1s) and 30 hours on twins (Cessna 310s). A typical course lasted about 15 months, subject to the vagaries of the weather in the closing stages.

Most (but not all) flying students were airline-sponsored. At the beginning of 1966, cadets represented airlines including BUA (British United, the parent company of which owned the school), Aer Lingus, Cambrian Airways, Malaysia-Singapore Airlines, Nepalese Army Air Service, and Sudan Airways. Courses started at two-monthly intervals, and each generally consisted of a mixture of nationalities/airlines. Later that year, however, we were joined by a course of BOAC/BEA cadets, due to Hamble being oversubscribed.

The airfield runways at Perth were all grass in those days. That made for interesting night-flying in the spring and autumn, when the combination of rain and the high number of movements led to very muddy conditions. (Night-flying training is impracticable in the summer in Scotland.)

Any other PPRuNers that remember Scone around 1966?

[Offchocks]

Okay perhaps not 1966 but seven years later, Pooch and Critchley were still there. The school was busy and there were now two sealed runways and one grass, about 20 C150s, 5 C310s and a couple of link trainers.
The pilot students came from MEA, Tao Domestic ( Now JAS ?), a few Nepalese Army and Air Malawi students, a couple of ICAO sponsored students, one from Dan Air and about six private students of which one was myself. I think the course fees had risen to about 7,000 pounds.
I went back to do my ATPL subjects a couple of years later and not much had changed, but when I went back to show my son about fourteen years ago, the place was now a lot quieter with only private flying and some engineering students.
We all used to have the odd complaint and were happy to leave to start our careers, however when I look back I believe the school was very well run.

[scotbill]

Pooch was already there in 1952 when I joined Glasgow UAS. Apart from the Chipmunks, the hangar had Oxfords, Army Austers - and a Cierva autogiro.

Pooch was a hunting and shooting man and proudly contributed some geese to the restaurant one day. Unfortunately they had been hung overlong and he was deeply disappointed by customer lack of appreciation. :yuk:

[Mearns Loon]

I was an applicant for a trainee position in 1966. I was not successful but took up flying again 20years later. I was not sure I could have afforded to take up a place if I had been offered a place, as I just left University.

[Meikleour]

Chris: I operated into Scone several times whilst in the Edin UAS 67 - 69
including the "Scone Trophy". Have a vivid memory of Old Nuggent
trying his best to "charm" my then girlfriend at the after social.
Later I was checked out by Gordon Lockart on the schools chippies.

Were you there at the time of the mid-air?

[l.garey]

Scotbill: was that autogyro in fact the Kay Gyroplane G-ACVA? I saw it at Scone in 1962.

Laurence

[atb1943]

We had a pretty good system at Oxford of chart kits for students and I suggested we try to get Hamble and Perth on the same scheme. Good idea said the boss, let's go. I did the honours by mail and off we traipsed via Heathrow and Glasgow, train and cab to Scone. That was in 1971. The registrar hardly looked up at us but reckoned they were alright thanks...you may leave.

I told him in no uncertain terms in my best Hampshire what I thought of our coming all this way, with an appointment, to be treated so miserably, so he sighed and got on the phone, and Jimmy Hamilton picked us up and showed us the place, nice as pie, and most apologetic. Needless to say they WERE alright, Hamble too, but it was a nice trip.

Ten years later at the Flight Business Show at Cranfield, over the road one evening, I bumped into a fairly short chap in the bog - it was Jimmy, and he was so pleased to have been remembered. I'm glad it wasn't the registrar!

cheers

[JW411]

I did my PPL/Flying Scholarship at Scone in 1958 which was pretty much the start of my long flying career. I was given the choice of training on the Chipmunk or the Tiger Moth and opted for the latter. I first flew with Pooch on 17 July 1958 and he was, I think, known as the Commandant. In fact, he did my PPL test and I told the fearsome story on a previous thread "DH82a".

My main instructors were Tommy Blyth (CFI of the Scottish Aero Club) and Cyril Sweetman (ex-RAF Canberras?). Poor old Tommy, having survived the Halifax and WWII, got killed in a Chipmunk crash with an ATC cadet a couple of years later.

Bob Critchley gave me a couple of lessons and I also flew with Andy Anderson and Bill Lancaster. Some Kuwait Airways students were going through the AST course at the time and I was living next door to a chap called Safir. I believe he went on to be their Chief Pilot.

David Kay, who designed and built the Kay Gyroplane (G-ACVA) would appear in the bar on a Saturday night from time to time. His aeroplane was in the hangar and kept in good condition. It was apparently quite flyable although I never personally saw it airborne.

[scotbill]

Scotbill: was that autogyro in fact the Kay Gyroplane G-ACVA? I saw it at Scone in 1962.I' m sure you're right. Laurence.

The memory plays tricks as senility beckons- but I seem to recall an array of very good cartoon portraits of the staff done, I believe by one of the instructors.

Does anyone knoow what happened to them?

[mcdhu]

I did my PPL with the Scottish Aero Club at Easter 1965 paid for by the RAF under the guise of a Special Flying Award. My C150 instructors were Peddell and Lockhart. My PPL flight test was done by Nugent and my log book was signed off by Donald Pow. All done in the school Easter holidays.

Great memories of drinking and dancing in Perth in the evenings.
Happy days - half a century ago. Only sim now!

mcdhu

[bcgallacher]

Odd to see all these names from AST at Scone - I did my PPL there about 1960 - I did the last flight with Tom Blyth the day he and my fellow cadet were killed - it was a shock to the other 3 of us to say the least. A couple of years later I commenced my engineers licence course - enjoyed every minute of it. I am now retired and live about 30 miles away,sometimes pay a visit,have a coffee and feel nostalgic. Engineering school is now part of Perth College,do not think there is anything but flying club there now - such a shame.

[Rossian]

....but does anyone remember Archie Kinch who went there probably early/mid '70s?
He was the Sunderland pilot who landed on the Yangtze in the incident of the film.

The Ancient Mariner

[longer ron]

I did my PPL at AST scone courtesy of Philip Sassoon and Aunty Bettys flying club :) in May/June 1972 - most of my dual was with Peter Foote and PPL test with Gordon Lockhart.Lovely place to fly from - and fairly local as I was a Fife Lad.
Here is a lovely little vid - an AST advert from the past...and I still have that lovely badge on my blazer :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEpTA-uncdk

[asmccuk]

Good to read some memories and names from Scone. Thanks for raising the subject Chris.
Although not a commercial student at AST, I had the good fortune to do my ATC Flying Scholarship at Strathtay Aero Club, as it was in these days, during summer 1953, with instructors 'Flag' Johnson and Dave Kay on Tiger Moths. Dave Kay, as CFI, signed off my PPL final test on G-AHUV in July 53. (I think G-AHUV is still active!)
I then flew from time to time with Strathtay/Scottish between 1954 and 1960 to keep my PPL current, being checked out when required by Tom Blyth and Andy Anderson on Tigers, civil Chipmunks and Messenger.
I have a very grainy photo of the Kay Gyroplane G-ACVA in the back of the hangar from that time.
My Scone experiences also included flying with Glasgow UAS on Chipmunks from Jan 55 to Dec 56, and practice forced landings at Errol.
I remember the names of Nugent and Critchley, and there was at least one Hamilton.
The Scone circuit with non radio Tigers, on radio Chipmunks, occasional Harvard and Oxfords and Ansons was a good learning process!
I must go back soon and look around.
Andrew McClymont

[NutherA2]

Thanks Longeron for the video link, it was something of a surprise to see myself in it.

[Chris Scott]

After making my OP, I soon realised I should have mentioned the UAS Chipmunks, but I didn't anticipate how many of you would have done flying scholarships, or similar, at Scone. The CPL/IR courses like mine represented most of the flying training by 1966. Course 32 started in January, which suggests that CPL/IR courses might have started in or before 1960 - unless the early course numbers were used for PPL students.

If memory serves, there were around half a dozen UAS Chippies in 1966. (Can someone remind me which university?) They looked smarter than the AST ones, and were fitted with anti-flat-spin strakes. Ours were not, and numbered only four at the beginning of the year, so most of us were allocated to the One-fifties, rarely if ever getting our hands on a Chippie - and then only for dual. The Chipmunk guys, who mainly had some previous flying experience, were regarded with a mixture of awe and envy, although some of us were secretly relieved that we didn't have to cope with a tail-dragger.

By the end of the year, we were down to two Chippies. One had stalled in a low turn over the home of a girl the solo student was trying to impress, passing between two trees before hitting the ground, The engine continued for some distance... The other, flying dual, had failed to go-around from a low approach during a practice forced-landing, hitting a stone wall. All three pilots survived with minor injuries at worst, but from then on the type was more or less inaccessible for the rest of us.

Meikleour,
When you were checked out by Lockart, was it an AST or UAS Chipmunk? No, the mid-air (between two Cessna 150s?) was a year or two after I left.

JW411,
Cyril Sweetman did my flight-familiarisation test on selection, and a progress check at about 20 hrs. I don't think Pooch did any instruction in 1966, and I never flew with the CFI.

scotbill,
I remember those great cartoons of instructors in the flying club. Are you saying they've been removed?

mcdhu,
Alec Peddell was my first flying instructor, and sent me solo on the C150. Couldn't have wished for better, and I was sorry when he left for Hamble soon after. (He was also a yachtsman, IIRC.) Don Pow, as deputy CFI, did my CPL dummy GFT (X/C and General).

bcgallacher,
That must indeed have been a shocking experience, and I trust you hadn't previously intended to pursue a pilot career? In the autumn of my own, I was checked out on a Chipmunk for the first time and sent solo. I was greatly impressed by the abilities of my instructor, a semi-retired, ex crop-spraying guy who told me over a beer that he sometimes earned easy money acting as a safety pilot for the well-heeled, but barely competent, owner of an aerobatic biplane. Two months later, I heard they'd spun out of the bottom of a cloud somewhere in Berkshire. May sound illogical, but it affects.

[asmccuk]

Chris, it was Glasgow UAS at that time.
Andrew

[DaveReidUK]

By the end of the year, we were down to two Chippies. One had stalled in a low turn over the home of a girl the solo student was trying to impress, passing between two trees before hitting the ground, The engine continued for some distance... The other, flying dual, had failed to go-around from a low approach during a practice forced-landing, hitting a stone wall. All three pilots survived with minor injuries at worst, but from then on the type was more or less inaccessible for the rest of us.

Presumably G-AOSA at Coupar Angus (4th December) and G-AOJZ (31st May), respectively, although the BoT report on the former suggests it was also a PFL that went wrong (it did end up in the intended field after hitting the trees :O).

Photo here of G-AOJZ, which was recovered and subsequently used as an instructional airframe, spuriously marked as "G-ASTD": https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-thallon/8473987212

[bcgallacher]

Chris - I actually intended to be a professional pilot but over the next 18 months my hearing deteriorated to below the required standard. I come from an aviation family so I did the engineering course at Scone - got the Lord Provost of Perths gold medal for top student. Did the next 45 years as a line engineer worldwide - worked in over 60 countries,last assignment was Tashkent in Uzbekistan. Basically worked as a technical mercenary and had a wonderful time,made a little money - I always say I got paid for having a hobby! Now have homes in the Philippines and Fife - off to Manila in Jan to swim with the whale sharks in Oslob and escape the worst of the winter.

[NutherA2]

but does anyone remember Archie Kinch who went there probably early/mid '70s?I joined the staff at Scone in July, 1974 and Archie arrived soon after. We had met briefly in the RAF years before on a jet "refresher course" on Meteors . One of his claims to fame was having obtained a CFS A1 Cat, which he did on Sunderlands!

At AST Archie served as Single-engined Flight Manager, CFI and in 1987 was appointed Chief Instructor when Bob Critchley eventually retired, He lives not far from Perth and we still exchange Christmas cards.

[Wander00]

Heck - CFS A1 on SUNDERLANDs - sounds awesome

[Offchocks]

I didn't know Pooch had been an instructor, however I knew he liked hunting etc., once some of the game ended up in our meals ...... with bits of fur still attached! :yuk:

Don Pow was the head C150 instructor and I was his only student. After teaching me some aerobatics in "his" aerobat, he said I was not to do any solo, but if I did he advised me to do them in a certain area so as not to get caught!

My instructor on the C310 was Hector Skinner, a very nice fellow and a great instructor ..... he must have been as he got me through my IR flying with the minimum of fuss!

[Groundloop]

Engineering school is now part of Perth College,do not think there is anything but flying club there now - such a shame.

Not so.

Commercial Training (courses) (http://acsflighttraining.co.uk/)

[Meikleour]

Chris: no, it was after I had left the UAS at the end of 1969.

G-ARCR I remember it well because we both strapped in with me waiting for a suitable erk to come and prime us! Gordon, taking another drag from his habitual fag saying " you're not in the f****g RAF now! Get out and do it yourself!" A nice, needed introduction to the civil world!

[JW411]

Hector Skinner; now there is another name to conjure with. I didn't meet Hector until about 35 years after I had been to Perth. By then he was a CAFU Examiner for the CAA. He came into the simulator one night to renew my TRE/IRE rating. He was a very pleasant and straightforward chap and all went well.

A year or so later, I was waiting to go into the simulator to examine one of our crews. I noticed from the simulator tech log that the CAA were already in residence and Hector's name was on the crew list. The curious thing was that the drawbridge into the simulator was still down so, therefore, the motion had not been switched on. It was quite strange to hear all the noises but the machine was not moving a muscle.

Anyway, the crew door eventually opened and as Hector walked past me. I said Hello and made the comment that flying aeroplanes would be so much easier if they didn't move. I received a wry smile.

No doubt we shall eventually get on to the Dai H-H stories!

[Chris Scott]

Glad to have triggered many interesting memories of Scone here - if not yet 1966! ;) Keep 'em coming...

Thanks Dave, I had forgotten that the Coupar Angus prang was as late as December. But most of us visited the accident scene. Just shows one can't take everything in accident reports entirely on face-value...

Quote from asmccuk:
"My Scone experiences also included flying with Glasgow UAS on Chipmunks from Jan 55 to Dec 56, and practice forced landings at Errol.
I remember the names of Nugent and Critchley, and there was at least one Hamilton.
The Scone circuit with non radio Tigers, on radio Chipmunks, occasional Harvard and Oxfords and Ansons was a good learning process!"

By 1966, minor changes only! The Errol area was fairly busy, with power lines nearby and Dundee (Riverside) not far off. No sign of Tigers, Harvards, Oxfords or Ansons. :sad: But the circuit may have been even busier than in your day. Our Hamilton was a senior C310 instructor called Bill, IIRC, though my logbook unexpectedly shows only his first initial as "C".

Longer ron, was that Peter Foote in 1972? We had a senior instructor called R Foote, who flew both types, but I don't remember his first name.

[NutherA2]

We had a senior instructor called R Foote, who flew both types, but I don't remember his first name.That was Ray Foote...........:ok:

[Offchocks]

longer ron thanks for the video clip, it brought back some memories and I even recognized one of my old ground instructors Mr Allen. Although a good instructor he was a bit of a prophet of doom, the first oil crisis was taking place and he was of the opinion that a flying career was doomed!
Here is another video from 1994:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nudfy4OXXds

There is an "AST Scotland old boys" page on Facebook. Not a lot of information from past students, but quite a bit of news/ advertising for AST.

I know they do some pilot training, however it seems to be a shadow of its former self. When and what happened to cause the decline of pilot training?

[JW411]

I went over to Errol one day with Tommy Blyth in Tiger Moth G-ANNG to learn how to do "runway landings" (Perth was all grass in 1958). Tommy briefed me that we would be doing touch-and-go landings and that he wanted me to keep the tail in the air to save wear on the tail skid. This I did but when I opened the throttle after the first landing, the runway disappeared sideways and Tommy had to take control rather rapidly. That was when I learned about swing on take-off! I never did it again - not even on the Piston Provost.

[ciderman]

Gordon Lockhart was my instructor at Perth in 1965. I did my PPL courtesy of Her Majesty on Chipmunks, complete with electric starters. I remember my cross country to Aberdeen (or Dyce as it was then). I asked for help in finding the field from the coast and was told to "turn left at the sausage factory". That was Lawsons of Dyce of course, now long gone. Happy days.

[Manoir]

Hello Chris,

I was one of 21 cadets on Course 33 which began on 6th March 1966. Most were Aer Lingus trainees and a couple of years ago a course photograph came my way from an Aer Lingus source. When I have worked out how I can post it, I will use it as a base for a bit of reminiscing of those times. Tragedy, romance and intrigue...stay tuned to pPrune, folks!

[Double Hydco]

Hector Skinner; now there is another name to conjure with.

Hector was our next door neighbour when I was a kid and he was working for CAFU. He would often knock on our door during the school holidays and ask if I'd like to fly on the CAFU HS125 the following week. It took less than a nanosecond to say "yes please!"......

A gentleman.

DH

[CSman]

A long time ago, but some things this old fart remembers.Singles instructor was Dave Blair ex RAF I think he flew Swifts and F86 spent some time in the Antartic
after leaving the Airforce On the C310 seems to remember Willie Hamilton also remember Perth was Closed many times to the 310 waterlogged
CSman Terry Morgan

[Chris Scott]

More nice anecdotes! Thanks Terry, for reminding me that Capt Hamilton of the Cessna 310s was referred to as "Willie".

I can list many of the instructors because after my first - Alec Pedell - left for Hamble soon after sending me solo I found myself flying with many of the rest. So here's my list, in no particular order, with their call-signs (used only on singles, IIRC) in brackets.

C150 and/or DHC-1: Alec Pedell (93), Geoff(?) Chandler (85), Cyril Sweetman (90), Ernie Holmes (96), Hugh(?) Allen (82), D. Kirkpatrick (97), R. Elliott (93), Gordon Lockart (92), D. Kirkpatrick (?), Don Pow (88).

Singles & C310: Ray Foote (98).

C310: C. "Willie" Hamilton, J. Stone.

ciderman, Aberdeen airport (EGPD/ABZ) is still known aeronautically as Aberdeen-Dyce. Slightly more helicopter activity than in the 1960s!

JW411, Errol touchdowns were strictly verboten by our day, which was a pity. (May have been obstructed?) Must admit I could never find the ground on wide, paved runways - day or night. Like sinking into a bottomless pit... Guess you would agree it's much easier on taller aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

Would that be the same Hugh Allen who I knew, though not very well, when he was CFI of the Lothians Flying Club at EDI in the early 70s? Nice chap.

Sadly, he was killed in in 1981 when his C172 flew into a hill in Fife.

[Chris Scott]

Dave,
That seems probable. Only flew with H. Allen once (July '66), but seem to remember he was large and good-looking. I hesitate to say it in case of error, but IIRC he had been the instructor involved in the Chipmunk practice-forced-landing accident in the May. (The student [Doug X] completed CPL/IR training without further incident, and was later a close colleague of mine for many years.) Perhaps Manoir will remember.

[longer ron]

Chris Scott

Longer ron, was that Peter Foote in 1972? We had a senior instructor called R Foote

I would not argue with anybody about his first name Chris - it was a long time ago :)
The guy I flew with seemed fairly elderly (remembering I was only nineteen :) ),not too tall,maybe slightly pedantic and a little 'nervous' perhaps ? I am 500 miles from my old logbook at the moment but doubt I put his first name in anyway.

rgds LR

[Manoir]

Chris, Dave,

The name Hugh Allen rings a bell and I have a vague memory of a tallish, thin guy - but that's all.

My instructor on singles was Wing Commander Dave Blair, soft-spoken and a real professional.

[Manoir]

AST 1966
There were 21 students on Course 33 when it began on 6th March 1966. Fifteen were Aer Lingus Cadets, five (including myself) sponsored by Cambrian and one, Mike King, a private student as far as CPL who had his I/R sponsored by Cambrian.

No previous course had this many students. This may have been the reason Pooch initiated the requirement that all students wear name-badges. This did not go down well with the Aer Lingus chaps who complied...but with their names in Irish!

The Aer Lingus cadets were on a different deal to the rest of us. Once they had passed their CPL they returned to Dublin to be type-rated on the Viscount and on which they completed their I/R.

Later in the year saw the arrival of the BEA/BOAC trainees on Course 37. They had a mixed reception - being perceived by some as being rather 'superior' (or words to that effect). That was not my experience - I struck up one or two passing friendships with Course 37 students.

As mentioned earlier, Dave Blair was my instructor on singles. I remember him as a soft-spoken quintessential Scottish country gentleman. On Cessna 3I0s I had Footy (Ray Foote?). I remember Lew Hurrell's pre-flight briefings though not actually flying with him. Jamie Hunter and Jack Robertson were two of the ground instructors whose names I recall (Jamie did Met and Jack taught us Nav Plot and Flight Planning, if I remember correctly).

It was, by its nature, intense but the weekends gave us time to catch our breath. At one point three of us from Course 33 were dating three sisters who lived locally.

Six months into the course, Aer Lingus chopped three of their Course 33 trainees. There was an industry downturn. What happened was that Aer Lingus appears to have leaned on AST and the students' progress reports were used as the excuse. Three others were warned that they might not be kept on unless their performances improved.

In the event two of the three were taken back on by Aer Lingus after their families took legal advice. One of these, Brian Murphy later developed motor neuron disease which permanently grounded him and his death followed not long afterwards. Brian and I kept in touch for a while after we left Perth. One day in June 1967, he phoned me to tell me about the crash of a Viscount (EI-AOF) near Ashbourne, County Meath. It was on an early morning training flight and all three on board, the instructor and two cadets were killed. One of the cadets was our fellow Course 33 student Rory Power (Ruarí de Paor). RIP.

Manoir (John McGurk).

[KayKay]

I did an ATC flying scholarship at Perth from 1 to 29th April 1965 so must have been there at the same time as MCDHU (post #10). There were six of us but one left after a couple of flights. Accommodation was tight so we were put up in the sick bay.


The only name I remember was Primrose. I do recall one guy was on a Special Flying Award and one was a Sea Cadet, the rest of were ATC or CCF. As we were in uniform the Sea Cadet said he felt a bit of a pratt climbing in and out of a C150 in his bell bottom blues !


The instructors were Peddell and Lockhart - Gordon Lockhart, know as "Gee". They were both excellent. Did my PPL test with Pooch Nugent. I recall he was a big chap and hardly left any room for me in the C150. I remember being taken into Bob Critchley's office at the end of the course and introduced to him in respectful tones. It was like meeting royalty.


Two guys got to do their training on Chipmunks. They were chosen on the basis of previous Chipmunk experience. I had probably more than either of them but couldn't prove it as I had not kept a log of air experience flights in my ATC ID booklet. Big mistake !


I enjoyed the whole experience immensely. Some good nights in pubs in Perth and also visiting QV School in Dunblane with one of the guys who was an FP. We also toured about the countryside in a mini-bus one of the guys borrowed from his mother in Blairgowrie. I went back to Perth the following year to keep my licence current and flew with Bob McAuliffe.


I didn't make my career in flying but I still fly PA28s at Fife airfield.
Chris Anderson

[Chris Scott]

More interesting anecdotes, including those from Manoir. It being Christmas, however, can I plead the forbearance of our kind moderators in respect of the following, gross example of thread-drift...?

Anyone stumbling upon this thread who is unfamiliar with the unremarkable village of Scone (pronounced, roughly speaking, "skoon") on the Perth-to-Coupar Angus road may not be aware that it owes its name to a nearby ancient royal palace of the Scottish kings, which was home to the so-called Stone of Scone - a kind of royal artefact that is (or was?) supposed to have been seized by an English king in the 13th century. The stone has become an icon for the Scots, including nationalists who seek independence.

Coincidentally to this thread, there is current discussion on the authenticity of the stone that is currently housed at Edinburgh Castle.

The Daily Telegraph (an English newspaper) publishes two readers' letters today, together with a photo of the mysterious object on display. So now you can see that Manoir's interests are not confined to aviation!

Letters: England will not allow Scottish nationalists to hijack the EU debate - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12066753/Letters-England-will-not-allow-Scottish-nationalists-to-hijack-the-EU-debate.html)

Can this really be the Coronation Stone?

SIR – Ian Hamilton, noted for taking the Stone of Scone from Westminster Abbey in 1950, queries whether it should be allowed south for the next coronation.
But the question remains whether it is the real coronation stone of Scotland. Its story suggests that the English soldiers who seized it in 1296 were given a drain cover. A piece of sandstone with a metal ring in it is an unlikely object for the function of crowning a king. Mr Hamilton is talking up his exploit but knows the stone has nothing to do with coronations, except those since Edward I captured it.
A beautifully carved stone that used to be in a church in Perthshire is a much more likely candidate.
Andrew H N Gray
Edinburgh

SIR – Last year, 1.2 million people queued at Edinburgh Castle to view the Stone of Scone. What they didn’t know is that it is probably less than 90 years old.
Ian Hamilton and his fellow nationalists removed the stone from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day 1950. The following March, after a tip-off, the authorities found what they believed was the stone at the Abbey of Arbroath, and it was returned to Westminster.
Robert Gray, a stonemason and Scottish nationalist, was custodian of the stone during the intervening period. When he and Ian Hamilton drove to Arbroath Abbey with the stone, it is likely that they were delivering a replica he had sculpted decades before (he made more than one). Mr Gray’s son and daughter have confirmed this, and that the real stone rests at an unknown location in Scotland.
John McGurk
...

Merry Christmas everyone!

[NutherA2]

The only name I remember was PrimroseKayKay, Primrose is an unusual surname & I wondered whether this might have been the Ian Primrose who was one of my students on the Gnat some 4 years later? If so I have very good memories of him as a person and as a pilot, but sadly he was killed in a JP crash out of Rissington after being "creamed off" for the CFS Course after graduating from Valley.

[KayKay]

NutherA2 - yes I'm sure it was Ian Primrose. A fine chap. He was one of the ones on the Chipmunk. He sailed through the PPL course. He came across as very confident and "comfortable in his skin". It was evident he was going to join the RAF. He may even have had an acceptance before he did the FS ? Very sorry to hear about his early demise.

[mcdhu]

Yes kayKay, there were 6 of us:

You, me, Ian Primrose, the one who left fairly quickly, a guy whose surname was Richardson and ended up on Victors, and the guy who ran us around in his family 'van'.
Any offers?
Ian Dow

[DaveReidUK]

Very sorry to hear about his early demise.According to the CFS History, he and his instructor, Flt Lt John Watson (31), were killed when their JP T.3 XM360 flew into Brown Clee Hill (the highest point in Shropshire) in low cloud on 24th January 1969. He was 21 when he died.

[Chris Scott]

Happy New Year! Fifty years ago, the three putative students lucky enough to have persuaded BUA, AST and the Ministry of Aviation of our suitability for investment in the form of a flying cadetship on Course 32 were spending our last few days with our families before the journey up to Scone for our report on January 5th, a Wednesday. In my case that would involve a night-sleeper train from London-Euston to Perth, followed by a bus ride to Scone village and a walk of nearly a mile, carrying my bags, to the aerodrome. I'd previously made a similar journey for the main selection interview/test in November.

Our course officially started the next day, as it did for two others on the course: Charles Jordan, an R/O (radio-officer) from Morton Air Services (part of the BUA group); and "Sandy" Morris, the younger son of a local farming family. Charles, who had been in Bomber Command at the end of WW2 and had a son of my age, had obtained a PPL and was being sponsored by Mortons: a generous gesture by Sammy Morton. The Herons he flew as nav-cum-R/O-cum-general dogsbody had recently been re-certificated as two-pilot a/c. Sandy was the family black-sheep: restless, uninterested in farming and looking to travel the world. He had flown at Scone with the aero-club, had a PPL, and was self-funding.

My two fellow BUA cadets, Mike (aka Mick) Cross and Peter Leith-Smith, had PPLs. I was the only one of the five Brits with no flying hours (apart from about 40 mins with Cyril Sweetman on selection). Although we started on January 6th, we found that the remaining students on Course 32 - all foreign - had mostly started on December 13th for induction and language assessment (presumably).

So Course 32 was cosmopolitan, with 22 male students: a number gradually to be reduced by attrition. Here's an attempt at a start-list, in no particular order, with funding in brackets (MSA is Malaysia-Singapore Airlines), followed where known by his allocated-instructor's initials :

? Dias (MSA?) RF
W.K. Gui (MSA) AP
B.M. Abdul-Hamid (MSA)
J. Lau (MSA) EH
Musa (MSA?) AP
B.H. Ong (MSA) EH
A. de-Silva (MSA) CS
E.P. Soh (MSA) DK
Lt R.B. Karki (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Lt S.B. Malla (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
? Pant (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Capt T.J. Thapa (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Ahmed (Sudan Airways?) * DK
T. El-Hassan (Sudan Airways) * TC
Ghafar (Sudan Airways?) * RF
S. Zulkifli (Sudan Airways) EH
M.B. Cross (BUA) DK
C. Scott (BUA) AP
P. Leith-Smith (BUA) RF
C.W. Jordan (Morton Air Services) CS
A.L. Morris (Private) TC
? Tittialetti (?) ?

- IIRC, we were all assigned to fly Cessna 150s, except (perhaps) Leith-Smith?
- Students annotated * had apparently flown about an hour's solo prior to starting the course, plus about 30 hrs dual.
- Most of the MSA guys seemed to be ethnic-Chinese from Singapore. They were all very bright.
- The Nepalese Army guys were all officers, and were to do a special course that would later involve much twin-engined flying at low level in mountainous areas the rest of us were forbidden to enter. They would not do the IR (Instrument Rating) course.
- The Sudan Airways guys may not have been planned for the IR course either, because I don't have any later record of them doing it. They found the English language very tough, and at least one (El Hassan) slipped to Course 33.

Further to my previous list (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-2.html#post9211677) of all the flying instructors I flew with, our nominated course instructor (for mass flight-briefings and mentoring) was Terry Capon, and our allocated flying instructors initially were Terry Capon, Cyril Sweetman (CS), Alec Peddell (AP), Ray Foote (RF), D. Kirkpatrick (DK), "Ernie" Holmes (EH), Geoff(?) Chandler, Lew Hurrell (LH).

(Terry Capon had been an RAF pilot late in WW2. After being de-mobbed, he had had a long, successful career in business but had recently returned to his first love: flying. I later flew with him for the first time when he was a skipper on Heralds in BUIA, and we both became VC10 co-pilots in 1971 (BCAL). The vagaries of seniority prevented him from getting a command again before retirement.)

[Chris Scott]

The flying-exercise codes were listed for quick reference on the reverse side of a handy blotter. Sponsored by a Perth firm of printers & stationers by the name of D. Leslie (whose advert is just off the bottom of this photo), it was doubly useful for the majority of us that used fountain pens (containing Parker permanent Quink, of course) for our logbook entries.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x798/p1190355_copy_pprune_album_e8abb542ebc660fcd1a03741c6644ae83 c935ef5.jpg

There have been a couple of recent threads in AH&N on the RAAF and RAF codes, which seem to have changed slightly over the years after WW2. As Pooch was a retired W/Cdr, and other senior instructors were ex-RAF, it's no surprise that the AST one was remarkably similar in 1966. Note, however, that "13" happened to be reserved for First Solo.

CSman,
As you have removed your post, I take it you have found how to post your 35-Course photo?

[CSman]

regretfully not,but have created an album with the photo,but how to proceed I know not

[CSman]

trying once morehttp://www.pprune.org/members/185397-csman-albums-ast-perth-picture63-img-20160101-0001.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Superbe, CSman!

(The blotter took me half a dozen attempts... :ugh: ) That's good news, because I just happen to have course photos for courses 25 & 26 (without names); 27, 28, 29 & 30 (with names); and 31, 32 & 34 (without names). Will have to make JPGs, however. Manoir is promising us one for his Course 33 in due course.

Can you clear up one point? By 1966, the CPL courses generally started at roughly two-month intervals (increased from 4 per year to 6 per year). Course 33 started on March 6, which was two months after the real start of Course 32 (Jan 6). The AST quarterly journal for Winter 1965/6 lists the projected start dates as follows: Course 34 April 18, Course 35 June 13, Course 36 August 23, Course 37 October 17, Course 38 December 12, Course 39 (1967) February 13, Course 40 April 17.

Can you confirm that, in the event, your Course 35 didn't start until September?

EDIT
On reflection, and seeing the dual start dates for my Course 32 (see my specific post), it's likely that the above dates apply only to foreign-speaking students. Any anglophone students probably start about 3 weeks later, which would represent the start of the proper course. If so, the 1966/7 start dates can be amended as follows:
Course 32 (1966) January 6
Course 33 March 6
Course 34 May
Course 35 July
Course 36 September
Course 37 November
Course 38 (1967) January
Course 39 March
Course 40 May

2nd EDIT (20th Jan 2023) in tribute to CSman (Terry Morgan) R.I.P., whose photo of Course 35 had disappeared.
Here it is:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x646/course_35_9ec9cb2c800085a54ed407041980fbc57dff8545.jpg
Quote from CSman (Terry Morgan):
"Some names that come to mind after looking at the Photo
Top row left Paul Watson [Britannia], John Anquetil [BUA ] jersey lad, Myself
[Cambrian BA,] Adrian Crossthwaite,? Robin Munday [BA 747] A Reynolds [Malaysian Airlines] Next one unknown, top right Victor OH [Singapore Airlines
Became Chief pilot Singapore Cargo]
Bottom left Dave Williams [Cambrian BA 737 training Capt] P Harding Bua guy believe he was a DC10 Capt, next Chris Males lovely guy from Manchester area,have no idea who he flew for after BUA, LIM sat next we had two by the name of Lim on the course John Field[Cambrian BA retired early] K E WONG [Singapore airlines 747 Capt] Lim BOB Stocker,wonderful Guy [initially was Britannia FE ,used to leave Perth every weekend to fly as FE for Globe Air Finally 747 Capt BA, next another Gent who I can not remember,and finally A Pothera Malaysian Airlines Be came Fleet manager 747"

[CSman]

Not quite positive on the start date ,May have reported to Scone in AUG but from my log book first flight 5/9/66 also not sure how many of the course are still with us I know that a couple have left us

[CSman]

Some names that come to mind after looking at the Photo
Top row left Paul Watson [Britannia], John Anquetil [BUA ] jersey lad, Myself
[Cambrian BA,] Adrian Crossthwaite,? Robin Munday [BA 747] A Reynolds [Malaysian Airlines] Next one unknown, top right Victor OH [Singapore Airlines
Became Chief pilot Singapore Cargo]
Bottom left Dave Williams [Cambrian BA 737 training Capt] P Harding Bua guy believe he was a DC10 Capt, next Chris Males lovely guy from Manchester area,have no idea who he flew for after BUA, LIM sat next we had two by the name of Lim on the course John Field[Cambrian BA retired early] K E WONG [Singapore airlines 747 Capt] Lim BOB Stocker,wonderful Guy [initially was Britannia FE ,used to leave Perth every weekend to fly as FE for Globe Air Finally 747 Capt BA, next another Gent who I can not remember,and finally A Pothera Malaysian Airlines Be came Fleet manager 747

[Chris Scott]

Course 27 probably started early in 1965 and ran until the summer of 1966.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x380/80_picture_php_pictureid_65_b84ecfb5c90b974a13a098e47550040e c68d76df_11eea9ec31aa4ed73af48b87afc197cc135085ed.jpg

Dave (?) Hawkins, Norman Waller, Martin Mann *^, ? Smith, ? Dolly.
Tim Bennett, ? Flood, Dennis Murphy, John Mullin,

Absent from the photo: Barry Jackson.

*^ Martin won the Principal's Award for No. 27 Course.

CPL/IR courses at Perth tended to end with a whimper, rather than a bang, because of the vagaries of weather (particularly in the winter) and availability of IREs from the Ministry**. Once a student had passed his Instrument Rating, he was off the premises a.s.a.p., to minimise costs!

** Ministry of Aviation's Civil Aviation Flying Unit (CAFU), based at Stansted. (The MoA was soon to become the Board of Trade, Civil Aviation Department.)

[Chris Scott]

CPL/IR Course 28 probably started 2 months after Course 27, around Spring '65, as the rate of courses was apparently being ramped-up from 4 per year to 6 per year during 1965.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x302/picture_php_pictureid_80_f47337829c8fe07752533cb5f0411ff0a73 39ccc.jpg

Can readers confirm some first-names and sponsoring airlines?

[ciderman]

Ian,

You and I must have been there at the same time though we never talked about it at Sleaford Tech. Hope to see you in 2018 at whatever gets organised. Bill

[Chris Scott]

Course 29 probably started in the summer of 1965, and ran to about the autumn of 1966.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/499x560/picture_php_pictureid_87_f604a8a59636d0c04a98542ca1ec8c60fce b321c.jpg

Bill Newman and, IIRC, Peter Dawes were BUA-sponsored. They went to BUAF and BUA (CI) respectively.
Not sure about the others, but I think D.G. (David) O'Shea was a private student. He may have had funding problems, because he seems to have slipped to
Course 31 by August 1966. S.Chehab seems to have been a Kuwaiti prince, and was presumably self-funding.

[Manoir]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x337/picture_php_pictureid_84_c3c8764168eca0a108745ca81fa3ce65219 fefa1.jpg

AST, Perth - Autumn 1966



Back row: Al Hassan, Bill Passmore, John McGurk, Mike Maybey, Norman Lane, Mike King, Paddy Costigan, John Derham, Gerry Murtagh.

Front Row: Derek Brittain, Rory Power, Barry O'Brien, Chris Kennedy, Nicky McDonnell, Donal Foley, Joe Cull, John Boylan, Kevin Webb

Missing from this photo are Dave O'Shea,Brian Murphy and Pat Lynch...see my earlier post.

[Manoir]

What is reassuring about the Course 29 picture is that I remember all those faces, with the exception of D.G. O'Shea. (It is worth pointing that he and the Dave O'Shea who was part of the original Course 33 were not the same, nor were they related.Though Dave had his training terminated at Perth by Aer Lingus, he completed it the following year at an academy in Vero Beach, Florida. Aer Lingus were increasingly sending their cadets to the Vero Beach school and the higher standards of the students who had been to Perth was observed and commented upon by Lingus training personnel).

[DaveReidUK]

Youu might want to preview your replies before posting them, to ensure that the photos you refer to are visible.

[Manoir]

Thanks Dave,

It worked for the Course 33 photo but not these two. I will keep trying.

[dont overfil]

Youu might want to preview your replies before posting them, to ensure that the photos you refer to are visible.
The rest of the photos have all gone as well. What a shame.
I'm expecting to see Donal Foley here at Perth in a few weeks. He is a regular visitor. I'm sure he would like to see the photos. Nostalgia brings him all the way from Southern Ireland to fly the club Eurostar.


I still get the occasional call on A/G from Singapore 26 high up in the flight levels. Sorry I've forgotten the name. Sean Tempra (Emirates) was also a recent visitor.

[Chris Scott]

Course 30 would have started around August 1965 and seems to have been largely, if not completely, sponsored by Cambrian Airways (later merged with BEA). Possible exceptions are Williams and Singh?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x381/80_picture_php_pictureid_105_20f6da1625e19e280c465adebcf0331 7831e4a78_f879ee08d36b647ffd2ebdbae5ed0db8ef841a3a.jpg
Bob Thursby, Peter Harrison, Brian Samson, Roger Whitlam,
Ken Winter, Hamish(?) Grant, Brian(?) Williams, Tony Hanson, J.P. Singh.

The last of the students completed his I/R around January 1967.

[Chris Scott]

Could someone with experience of posting both monochrome and colour images please tell me (by PM, perhaps) why I'm getting a blue background when I import an image with a white background? Can this be corrected, perhaps at the import stage of the process? It makes all white objects in the images pale blue.

I'm trying to post black-and-white pictures, not black-and-blue ones... :{

Thanks in advance,

Chris

[CSman]

Nice to see this photo Top row Bob Thursby BA737 {we take ale together every Thursday, Pete Harrison Jersey lad,did most of the work in rebuilding a DH Rapide
BA not sure on which fleet he retired, Brian Samson,left and went to the Gulf[Gulf Air?] Roger Whitlam Ba 757/767,
Bottom row Ken Winter Ba747, Hamish Grant BA757/767,Brian Williams left Cambrian After a very short time, Tony Hanson Ba747

[Chris Scott]

Yes Terry, give the self-effacing Bob Thursby my regards. I once safety-piloted for him (16/6/66, C150 G-ATEG), and I remember him saying modestly that instrument flying would be a lot easier without the third dimension!

Ken Winter much improved that beard and - after Cambrian merged into BA (1974), perhaps partly to retain his command - spent some years continuing to fly Viscounts around the Highlands and Islands. Around 1978 - 1980 I met him when I had a day off in Glasgow, and he took me to Benbecula and back on the jump seat. Not sure if a non-employee would be permitted to do that today... ;) Their chief pilot, he told me, had ordained that they should fly VFR as much as possible, so most of the route was flown at around 1000 ft agl/amsl. On the way back, we flew past the mouth of Fingal's Cave. Unfortunately, I didn't carry a camera to work in those days.

So whatever lured Brian Williams away from Cambrian: Biafra?

[Manoir]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x399/picture_php_pictureid_106_8cba162c222f8df06494c79675f8fc1970 faa8e3.jpg

Chipmunk in Hangar
http://www.pprune.org/members/217684-manoir-albums-chipmunk-1967-picture106-chipmunk-hangar.jpeg

This was probably taken in April 1967. I never flew an AST Chipmunk but it was the machine to be photographed with! Looks like 'LO' (G-APLO?).I cannot remember who took the picture. Perhaps a former student who is reading this?

[Manoir]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x371/picture_php_pictureid_111_c18c23e0a76d36acac9f7c4f07c688f515 5c960d.jpg

Dyce (3 x 150s)
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x419/picture_php_pictureid_124_edb8baaa037c0b4dedc8e15c18f06fedfb 04b2a8.jpg

Dyce No 3
The qualifying cross-country for the GFT required that you land 'away'. In December 1966, Kevin Webb and myself along with another Course 33 student flew to Aberdeen (Dyce). The third student was the one who took the photo. (Possibly Nicky McDonnell).

http://www.pprune.org/members/217684-manoir-albums-course-33-photo-ast-picture124-dyce-no-3.jpeg

[KayKay]

mcdhu, Ian, I have a photo I took of you beside a C150 and one someone (possibly you) took of me. I would post them but I seem to be not permitted to post attachments on this forum. Don't know why ...... anyway, I'm impressed by your powers of recall. Was Richardson the guy who rode about on a motor scooter wearing an RAF bone dome which had the legend "Haggis" written on it ? However, I think there may have been seven to begin with. ...... the six you've identified plus the Sea Cadet. He wasn't Richardson, he wasn't the man with mini-bus and he wasn't the guy who left early ?


Happy Days !


Chris

[Chris Scott]

Hi Manoir (John),

I guess that when the photo of the Chipmunk was taken you might have been starting your Instrument Rating course, flying the Cessna 310? If so, you'll remember the problem for procedural stuff was that the 2000-foot wind rarely fell below 40 - 50 kt in that spring of 1967 - generally from the west. It made an ILS on Rwy 13 at Turnhouse - that aerodrome's only ILS in those days - particularly challenging, and even one on Rwy 31 at Prestwick. ADF approaches were rather more tricky! 25 degrees of drift was common, and rough with it. The absence of any DME made all ETAs a lottery, based on the forecast wind. The same applied to holding patterns, which were supposed to be completed in precisely 4 minutes in those days; meaning the timing of the outbound leg and the tripling of the drift were critical.

So three C150s flew to Dyce "in loose formation" for the solo pilots to perform their qualifying CPL X/Cs? Which one did the navigation? ;)

[CSman]

Ah the memories, The day of the cpl X/C about 8 or 9 were rostered on the same day The route Perth Aberdeen Inverness Perth I was about number 2 or 3 On arrival at Inverness The refuel small truck arrived with a small hand pump.The refueling guy asked did I need fuel ,I said yes ,so he started to hand pump just about finished with my aircraft when he looked up and seeing a number of aircraft on final. Will they all require fuel ?when I answered yes, he left with not a happy look on his face

[Chris Scott]

Hi KayKay and mcdhu,

Presumably your messing would have been at the Aero Club, but you might have bumped into CPL/IR guys on Courses 27 or earlier? I've already posted the course photo with names for 27. Have also got photos for courses 25 and 26, but with hardly any names (see below). All these courses were probably messing in the school.

Remaining students on Courses 23 and 24, however, would mainly have gained their CPLs by your time, and perhaps been promoted to the Aero Club for messing. The only name I recall from that period is Dave Runnalls (BUA-sponsored).

Courses 25 and 26

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/456x600/picture_php_pictureid_109_d5e10ee3eaf0d84a12c99b7b92ded6f4f7 be8128.jpg

In Course 26, back row are John Duncan (left) and Dick Linton (2nd from right). 4th from left in front row may be John Fairclough, but I'm not sure. All those 3 were BUA-sponsored, as was another guy from that period: Barry Jackson (probably course 27, although I can't find him in a course photo). BUA-sponsored students are very much in a minority in Course 26, and I don't know who the sponsors were. Perhaps someone can help?

[Reverserbucket]

I know one of John Duncan's sons - his the spitting image of his Dad in that course photo!

[Manoir]

http://www.pprune.org/members/217684-manoir-albums-course-33-photo-ast-picture111-dyce-3-x-150s.jpg

A good challenge Chris! - 'Sequenced Flights' might have been the more accurate terminology. Take-offs from Scone were at intervals (5 mins?) and it was an exercise in individual navigation skills. This picture was also taken at Dyce on the same day. CSman's recall of the disgruntled refueller was a good excuse to use it.

[Chris Scott]

Looks to have been a rather dull December day, John?

For my CPL X/C in September the wx was a bit brighter. I was allocated G-APXY: probably our oldest C150 and a bit of a dog. Like CSman later, it was Perth/Dalcross/Perth with a landing at Dyce on the outbound sector only. My logbook records the Perth/Dyce and Dyce/Dalcross legs separately, but with the same arrival and departure time at Dyce, so it was either a roller or a landing and once around the perimeter track. On the next leg, after the turning point at Peterhead, parts of the route ran close to bits of main roads such as the A96. Heading into wind, it was evident that I was only just keeping pace with the faster vehicles at my TAS of 100 mph (86 kt). (Different story on the way back...) This coastal route obviously passed close to the south of RNAS Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss, but IIRC all was quiet. After an indifferent landing and a 45-minute turnround at Dalcross - to refuel and visit AIS to file a flight-plan - the return sector took 2:20. It was my first and (so far) last visit to Inverness.

[Manoir]

G-ATNK, the second of the three 150s in the photo had a swept fin and other modifications such as variable flap selection, if I remember correctly.

AST started to take delivery of the new series that year (1966).

[Chris Scott]

Yes John, and the other big difference was that the newer Cessna 150 models had/have quarter and aft-facing windows, which are a good safety feature when, for example, you are doing steep, clearing turns prior to stalling or spinning exercises. Other main changes from the 150Bs (such as the pictured G-ARSB) and 150As were electric flaps without position-detents (instead of manual with handle-detents) and, as you say, swept fins.

You are right, I think, that these new, Rheims-built models started to arrive early in 1966, just after I did, and they represented a big expansion to the fleet. The first may have been G-ATAT, which my logbook records as a 150E. G-ATNK is apparently a 150F, but I don't remember the difference.

[Manoir]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x450/picture_php_pictureid_127_ae6f8b03640757ba6f1f94ff13f843c063 c1fc54.jpg
Spitfire Avenue resize
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x450/picture_php_pictureid_128_840ac47faf9770018646eb8e3cd7d95f2a c3c5d1.jpg

Perth Airport Roadsign resize


The road sign on the A94. This was taken in January 2011 while on a 'Memory Lane' trip to Perth. Plus Spitfire Avenue as it looks today.
Perth Airport is now a Business Park incorporating, among others, the Scottish Flying Club.
DONT OVERFIL: Pass on my best wishes to Donal Foley when you see him...'Up Cork' !

[KayKay]

Hi Chris Scott re your#71. I recall meeting some of the guys on the CPL courses in the snooker room (April 1965). One I spoke to a few times was sponsored by Aer Lingus but sorry I don't recall any names.

[DaveReidUK]

You are right, I think, that these new, Rheims-built models started to arrive early in 1966, just after I did, and they represented a big expansion to the fleet. The first may have been G-ATAT, which my logbook records as a 150E. G-ATNK is apparently a 150F, but I don't remember the difference.

The 150E was the last of the straight-tail models, the 150F and onwards had the swept fin/rudder.

[Manoir]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x450/picture_php_pictureid_127_ae6f8b03640757ba6f1f94ff13f843c063 c1fc54.jpg

Spitfire Avenue resize
The approach road at AST, now called 'Spitfire Avenue'.

'Nugent Drive' is first on the right. The Control Tower is just visible at the top.

[Manoir]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/180x374/picture_php_pictureid_118_6f9a2a824bc3789899222c6281ecdd981c a363a9.jpg

Brian Murphy


This was taken in September 1967 at Dublin Airport. Brian is wearing his AST tie and carrying a documents bag with the letters 'Airwork Services Training'.

From memory, Aer Lingus had re-assigned Brian to either Oxford (Kidlington) or Vero Beach and he was waiting for a a start date.

The other man was an employee of Cambrian.

[Chris Scott]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x323/picture_php_pictureid_119_3e3c17fb872f13e1ceba92ec1ff7cb32b4 b82636.jpg

Photo taken during the final BUA selection process for CPL/IR Course 32: two days assessment by the flying school, followed by two days of the BUA Selection Boards. Eleven candidates started, and in the end three were accepted.

The black Humber Hawk (or Super Snipe?) in the background probably belongs to W/Cdr Nugent. Judging from Manoir's 2011 photo, the Tower and aero-club building may have remained substantially unchanged.

[dont overfil]

I've been struggling to post some more recent photos on here without success. Strange, I used to be able to do it! I'll keep trying.


There was a new(er) top put on the tower in the 70's otherwise it is much the same. The ATC service has now been downgraded to A/G Radio. The rest of the tower building is occupied by The Scottish Charity Air Ambulance and the Scottish Conservatives. The aeroclub building (Flight office) is unchanged.


Hangar 1 is ACS engineering and flight training.
H2 is now for container storage.
H3 is the Scottish Aero Club with over 80 aircraft stored. SAC also does microlight and gyrocopter training. Kingsfield Helicopters also share this hangar.
H4 Built in the 90's is AST engineering training. They stopped doing ATPL ground school in December 2015.


The last AST aircraft, 15 C150 Aerobats, 8 Warriors and 6 Cessna 310's were sold in 1996 effectively to one person. The C150's are now spread around the country. 5 of the Warriors went to Oxford Air Training. One of the C310's G-BGXK was scrapped at Perth last year. the rest were spread round the world. I had the pleasure of delivering one of the Warriors G-BTRY to Oxford in 1996.


Most of the other buildings are still here and are now housing, small businesses and even a hotel.


Manoir, wilco. I'll point him towards this thread.

[Chris Scott]

Hi dont overfil,

In 1966 the aero club occupied part of the tower building, and included catering facilities and a bar. We flying students were promoted to the aero club for messing once we had gained our CPLs: a considerable improvement. The regular students' canteen served reasonable food, but the behaviour of a vociferous minority of the foreign engineering students left much to be desired. I remember plates of food being hurled from one side of the dining area to the other on a couple of occasions during arguments.

Slightly poignant to hear that not everything has changed for the better, but at least Scone remains an active airfield and engineering school. Re the ATPL ground courses, BUA used to send CPL pilots to AST when they had or neared the hours for SCPL or ATPL ("ALTP"). But that practice had ended by the time it would've been my turn, so I had pay for it myself at Sir John Cass College in The Minories, London: commuting there mainly on days off, but sometimes when on home-standby.

Here's part of the apron at Scone, most likely at about midday on 11/11/65 (a Thursday). Course 31 had started about a week earlier.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x286/picture_php_pictureid_121_a03076b6982ec4c312baac43fbb1d1e277 07ba67.jpg

Quote from DaveReidUK:
"The 150E was the last of the straight-tail models, the 150F and onwards had the swept fin/rudder."

In my previous post about the expansion of the C150 fleet during 1966, I had forgotten that G-ATAT - a 150E - was already there, and that it had the original fin shape. The photo shows clearly, however, that it has the rear-view cockpit windows of the later 150 models. IIRC it also has the electric flaps. So the E-model seems to have marked the transition to the later models. I never understood if their fins were swept for reasons aerodynamic, structural, or merely cosmetic!

[Manoir]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x450/picture_php_pictureid_125_24fffebe44cf42939bde83bad45e5ba43a 0e9f40.jpg

Harvard House resize
Great pics Chris,

This is the 2011 match of your 1965 picture of the building that encompassed the Tower but from a different angle. The door is marked 'Harvard House' and bears the AST Logo but I am not certain if it is the same entrance we used back then. It looks as if that bit was added.

[Chris Scott]

Hello John,

Zooming into your 2011 pic from the bottom of "Spitfire Avenue" the gable end of the roof in front and to the left of the control tower look the same as in my 1965 photo. Is it possible that your 2011 close-up is one of a different part of the building?

[Manoir]

Well spotted Chris!

Having had a look on Google Earth, the photo I posted seems to be of a building to the west of the Tower Block. As you say yourself, the Aero Club was housed in the same building as the Tower.

in 2011, what was evident was the extent to which new buildings, some of them not so pretty, were constructed along side the old ones, gable to gable in some cases. It made re-orientation that bit more difficult. Other buildings that we used have been abandoned but not demolished. I have a picture of what I think is the snooker room but it might equally be one of the three accommodation blocks completed in 1966.

[dont overfil]

A nice pic taken last year from a balloon. Thanks Jim.
Harvard House is out of the picture to the left.
The building bottom left is more recent.
http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-view-perth-tower-picture130-dscn2009-t1.jpg

Below looking south west towards the city.



http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-view-perth-tower-picture129-tener1111-014.jpg

Finally a fairly current view from the tower. The blue and white building is now the aero club
http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-view-perth-tower-picture131-001.jpg

[sandym]

Scone before any commercial training. My PPL courtesy of ATC flying scholarship in 1955,instructors Tom Blyth and Flag J. Club members at the time Mabel Saddler, Archie, Cooper brothers, Sandy Mc ,Bob . Later Les of Tayflight with Fiona M. I went on to the RAF ,Provosts, Vampires, Valiants, Ansons , Canberras, Chipmunks. Visited over 30 different bases from Goose to Gib, Cyprus, Middle East, Africa, Singapore, Manilla, all before any Comets Or 707's and mostly over 40,000ft. Various other flying with Doves, Beech 18, Aztec, 310, 421,etc. Still flying after 60 years and 6,000hrs but limited to Warriors and the like. Happy memories...

[Chris Scott]

Hi dont overfil,

What super pictures of the aerodrome today!

In the one looking south-west towards Perth, there's a collection of trees in the middle distance. I reckon just this side of them was the location of a stud farm for cattle in 1966. From time to time the bull used to make a heck of a racket, and one wondered what might be setting him off... ;)

Much of the east view towards the apron, hangars, etc., looks more familiar than I expected. That blue-and-white building attached to the hangar was only the flight office and school admin office in our day, I think, the club social areas being in the Tower building. No paved runways then, of course, but the grass taxiways leading to the grass holding points were accessed via paved spokes leading to what could be likened to a part of the rim of a wheel. Looks to be late afternoon after a "RESHRA"?

Hello sandym,

You started young, and what a variety of types... Safe landings, Sir!

[India Four Two]

I never understood if their fins were swept for reasons aerodynamic, structural, or merely cosmetic!

I've read that the swept fin and the rear-view windows ("Omnivision") were a marketing exercise. The change in the rear-fuselage shape caused increased drag, so that the Omnivision Cessnas are slower than their predecessors!

Never mind, it LOOKS faster.

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, India Four Two. At least the rear-view windows were a safety feature, and the circuit at Scone was very busy.

Time to introduce CPL/IR Course 31, with help from a friend and colleague who was one of its students. The course-proper started early in November 1965 (the handful of foreign students may have come earlier for induction). There was some attrition. By the end of 1966, two students had completed their Instrument Ratings. The remainder were hampered by the bad weather, including strong winds, in the first four months of 1967.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x454/ast_course_31_4def27c4e35b000a97a5c2eb427ca50a8a2cfdc3.jpg

Back row, L to R: O.S. Tan (?), Alan Tyler, Pat Preston, Nick Davis, Brett Langevad, S. Verghese (?), M.C. Cheong, Peter Pereira, M. Saffien bin Desa.
Front row, L to R: Grenville Ess, Julian Birkbeck, Ted Chatfield, Dave Cordery, Roger Hoyle, Mark Carpenter, Geoff Nicholson, Nigel Flack.

Brett Langevad was privately-sponsored, but seemed to have connections with a small East African charter company. Peter Pereira was also private, but seemed to have an understanding with BWIA. Funding may have been a problem, and they both slipped to Course 32. Brett was the previously-mentioned, solo pilot of the Chipmunk (G-AOSA) that crashed near Coupar Angus on 4/12/66. He suffered only minor injuries, and later resumed his training elsewhere.

Roger Hoyle had studied law and also been a management trainee in his sponsor airline, BUA. He was one of the first on Course 31 to graduate from AST. Like most of the BUA cadets of the period, he was seconded to BUAF (car ferry) at Lydd on the Bristol 170. Later, he flew the One-Eleven in BUA and BCAL, gaining his command and then progressing to the B707 and DC-10. Meanwhile, his literary skills were exploited as editor of BALPA's journal, The Log, for many years; and his abilities of hard work, organisation, leadership and debating skill - plus a lifetime vocation to help those less talented to fight their own corners - took him to a much-admired chairmanship of the BCAL (BALPA) PLC.

After the takeover of BCAL by BA, Roger fought hard to promote the cause of a minority of other pilots whose pensions had fallen foul of the merger. Feeling let down by the organisation for whom he had served so loyally, he eventually resigned from BALPA. By that time he was a training captain on the A320, on which fleet he stayed until retirement in 1998. Unready to be grounded, he joined British Mediterranean and flew their A320s for just under a year before feeling ill on return from an unexpected Christmas layover. He died of cancer about three weeks later. R.I.P., Roger...

[Chris Scott]

Much of the following is guesswork, so if you know better don't hesitate to challenge or expand it by post or PM...

Safien Desa and Grenville Ess were sponsored by MSA (Malaysia-Singapore Airlines), which had just been formed from Singapore-based Malayan Airways and Borneo Airways. In 1972, MSA split into what are now Malaysia Airlines and Singapore Airlines. Desa and Ess continued their long careers in Malaysia and Singapore respectively.

M.C. Cheong and O.S. Tan are likely also to have been MSA-sponsored, as is S. Verghese. However, any firm information would be appreciated!

The remaining students were all BUA-sponsored, destined (as was normal at that time) to be detached to associate companies operating propellor-driven types. Except for about three Viscounts, BUA mainline was an all-jet fleet of VC10s and BAC 1-11s based at Gatwick, and - unlike BEA and BOAC - operated with only one, full-time co-pilot in each cockpit. (It was not until the late 1970s that BUA's successor-airline, BCAL, was prepared to place cadets straight out of flying school on to the right-hand seat of a One-Eleven; there being no smaller aircraft available.)

Cordery, Hoyle, Nicholson, and Tyler went to BUAF at Lydd, Southend or Southampton; initially on Bristol 170s. Birkbeck and Preston went to British United (Manx) Airways at Blackpool on Dakotas or Dart Heralds. Flack, Davis and Chatfield went to BUA (CI) Ltd at Jersey on Dart Heralds. Mark Carpenter went to Morton Air Services at Gatwick on Herons and (later) Dakotas - the first cadet to go there.

Detached co-pilots expected to spend about three years cutting their teeth operating multi-sector days on the above types. All being well, that would be followed by a transfer to mainline for a One-Eleven course. By the end of 1971, however, the seniority list for BUA's successor airline, BCAL, shows only Cordery, Hoyle, Birkbeck and Carpenter. Nicholson and Preston seem to have left voluntarily and gone to BOAC and Cathay Pacific respectively. Flack, Davis and Chatfield had been made redundant when BUA(CI) at Jersey was closed down by the Bristow purge **, despite only being there on detachment. Nigel soon began a new career at Cathay Pacific. Ted flew in Africa for a while, and then landed a job with BOAC.

** 1968/9 was a tumultuous time for the financially-ailing BUA Group. The owners had appointed Alan Bristow as group MD, tasked with steering it to profitability. He decided to de-unionise the companies, starting with the flight crews. (F/Es and BUA's specialist Navs were not in BALPA.) Crews in all the companies were invited to sign personal contracts, or be made redundant. The strikes that followed were well-supported; most of all in Jersey, where it was also particularly acrimonious. Bristow also closed BU(Manx) and Morton's, pilots being offered personal contracts with the replacement airline: BUIA. Although no two cases were identical, much of the dispersal of BUA ex-cadets to other airlines between 1968 and 1970 can be attributed wholly or partly to these events.

[Chris Scott]

DRESS and PERSONAL DISCIPLINE: Since my return from East Africa I have noticed the standard of tidiness of the Flying Students, in particular the sponsored students, has deteriorated and this matter is to be rectified at once. For the information of B.U.A. sponsored students, the School Authorities have been directed by Captain Jennings that all B.U.A. students are to be issued with school uniform on the commencement of their training and Major Pitt will be making arrangements for No. 31 Course to be so issued in the immediate future.

- Captain R. Critchley, Chief Instructor

[Manoir]

Course 33 began on 6th March 1966 with 21 students, a record number, exceeded only by Course 32!

Fifteen were sponsored by Aer Lingus, five by Cambrian and one other, Mike King whose CPL was self-sponsored. Not previously mentioned is Rupert Mount, one of the five sponsored by Cambrian.

The son of a Kent farmer, his cut-glass accent complimented his impeccable manners and dress sense. Despite our intense training schedule, Rupert always found time for a chat and chuckle in passing.

One day, news broke that Rupert's training was being terminated. I met him on the way to Flight Briefing and offered my commiserations. His reply came in the oft-used two-word Anglo-Saxon phrase covered by the phonetic alphabet's 'Foxtrot' and 'Oscar'...understandable in the circumstances.

He may have resumed flying training elsewhere but as his name never came up subsequently, one concludes that he pursued a non-flying career, the hope being that things worked out.

[dont overfil]

Sandym,
Good to hear you are still flying. We met at Tayside when you were flying for "Tricky D-Dicky:) in the 421 in the late 80's. I worked for J McA at the time.

[Chris Scott]

This was the official list, although its proper layout in columns cannot be duplicated here. And why would students need to know initials, let alone a Christian name? :rolleyes: However, some of the flying instructors' names have been mentioned previously: here (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-2.html#post9211677) and here (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-3.html#post9225547).

Mr Nugent - Principal
Capt Critchley - Chief Instructor
Capt Pow - CFI
Capt Hamilton - Instrument Training Flight Capt

Flying Instructors (Captains):
Sweetman, Foote, Holmes, Peddell, Pankhurst, Hurrell, Stone, Capon, Kirkpatrick, Lockhart (CFI Aero Club).

Mr Oldfield - Chief Ground Instructor

Ground Instructors (Messrs):
Robertson, Storie, McCormack, McGregor, McRae, Hunter.

Mr Thomson - SATCO
ATCOs (Messrs):
McFarlane, Mitchell, Craig.

Mr Calder - Bursar
Major Pitt - Welfare Officer
Mr Stewart - Ass. Welfare Officer [sic]
Miss Carr (?) - Matron
Mrs Baillie - Timekeeper
Mrs Davis - Record-keeper

[EDIT]
Among those missing from that list were:
H.J. (John) Brown - Link-Trainer instructor. And did he have an assistant?
J.E. Allen - Navigation instructor
L.A. Mackay - Catering Manager
E. Hodson - Chief Engineer

[Hoddy]

Just for interest I have posted a picture of Pooch Nugent with Bill Hamilton (left) and Bob Critchley (right). Not 100% sure about Bill and Bob but no doubts about Pooch. My father, Eric Hodson, was Chief Engineer Scone and we used to live opposite the Nugent's.
http://www.pprune.org/members/197091-hoddy-albums-ast-perth-picture141-img-1.jpg

[dont overfil]

Hi Hoddyhttp://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-view-perth-tower-picture143-img-1019.jpg,


Was it this one?

[Chris Scott]

Welcome, Hoddy!

Have you got a photo of your father, Eric Hodson, to post?

He used the medium of the Monthly Bulletin to pass on gems of advice to us rookie aviators, and this is particularly evident in the winter of '65/'66. Here's part of one in a series of "DON'Ts", published 15/11/65, including a nice line in humour:

(4) DON'T, during the pre-flight check, push and handle control surfaces as if you want to remove them from the aircraft. These surfaces are designed for flight loads only and excessive handling can and does cause skin cracking and distortion. The 310 tailplane is subject to this form of cracking, and we have had cases where the trouble was definitely caused by attempts to tear it from the fuselage during pre-flight. It has been said that the skin structure of some modern light aircraft resembles annealed silver paper. While this comment is not strictly correct, it does point out a moral: "Gently does it".

The peculiar sound heard when the skin structures are loaded externally and excessively, i.e., by lifting, pushing and pulling, is called "oil-canning" by our American cousins. The difference is that an oil can is designed to do it!

[Hoddy]

No, the one opposite!!

[Chris Scott]

While Hoddy waits to see if dont overfil has a photo of the Chief Engineer's 1966 residence as it is today, here's the official photo of Course 32. As previously posted (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-3.html#post9225547), the course-proper started on Thursday, January 6th, although the 17 non-Anglophone students had apparently started on December 13th. Manoir has claimed that his Course 33 would later set the record for the largest number of starting students at 21. Course 32, however, started with 22. :cool:

Partly because the 17 foreign students sooner or later returned to other continents - while the 5 British students, including myself, went to short-haul bases in the UK - we lost touch. Fifty years on, most of the faces/names are little more than educated guesses. Regarding the photo, it seems reasonable to assume that the 4 Nepalese Army officers did not participate, for security reasons, leaving the 18 students seen below. In which case, the photo was taken by mid-April; before we lost the first of 5 students that had gone by mid-July.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x515/ast_course_32_c295f07d23c2484e358ebebd7f6e75a97ae36b4a.jpg

Back row, L to R: J.Lau, 2 (?), Mike Cross, A.L.'Sandy' Morris, Chris Scott, Peter Leith-Smith, Charles Jordan, 8 (?), 9 (?).
Front row, L to R: 1 (?), B.M. Abdul-Hamid (?), W.K. Gui (?), S. Zulkifli (?), 5 (?), 6 (?), T. El-Hassan, A. de-Silva (?), 9 (?).

[dont overfil]

No, the one opposite!! This'll be it
http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-view-perth-tower-picture144-img-1020.jpg

[Hoddy]

That's the one, my bedroom by Sky TV - not available in 1966!

[Hoddy]

Two more pictures, one of G-AHUE and G-AHUV, both used by Strathtay Aero Club at Scone and one of my father, Eric Hodson (Chief Engineer), after he had flown G-AHUV. These picture are prior to 1966 but I think both Tigers were still at Scone during this period.
http://www.pprune.org/members/197091-hoddy-albums-ast-perth-picture151-img.jpg

[dont overfil]

G-AHUV is still a regular visitor and is based locally at Blair Atholl.

[Chris Scott]

Nice picture of your dad after flying the Tiger, Hoddy. When you say "prior to 1966", do you mean 1955-ish?

I think that at least one flyable Tiger was in a hangar in 1966, but I don't remember seeing one in the air.

Hi dont overfil,
Did any of the ATCOs listed in my previous post ring a bell?

[dont overfil]

I'm fairly recent at Scone (90's) but work there now. The only name I recall is Robin Drew but I have not seen him for some time. He had a long term Auster rebuild project in the hangar some years ago.

[Hoddy]

Checked log book, any time between Oct 1946 and Feb 1955!!

[Manoir]

Chris,

The list of AST instructors and staff on your 26th January post doesn't mention Dave Blair, my instructor on singles. I wondered if, by chance, he was seconded from the R.A.F. This might explain why his name was not on the AST payroll and therefore not included in your source material.

Mr. Oldfield, Chief Ground Instructor, was nick-named 'Oddjob' on account of a physical likeness to the character of the same name in Goldfinger (the one who had a metal based bowler hat that he deployed every so often with lethal consequences...)

'Goldfinger' was one of several films on show in the Perth cinema during 1966/7. (Does anybody remember what it was called?).

[dont overfil]

It is called Perth Playhouse now, and has been for a few years.
Edited to say I've come across some old photos of an AST visit there and the description mentions the Odeon.
http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-ast-picture211-78.jpg


ELS- English language school.

[dont overfil]

Hi Chris,
Derek Brittain visited Scone at the weekend. I believe he was on your course.
He has been lurking here recently.

[CSman]

I had lunch and a few ales with Bob Thursby today Bob is not in the best of health,but he still Has a wonderful sense of humour He sends his regards to all ex Perth inmates

[Manoir]

Thanks Dont, I met a man a month ago who grew up in Perth. He remembers at least two cinemas, about right for a town of its size in the 1960s. 'Goldfinger' was released in 1964, some of us may seen it prior to coming to Perth. Distinctly remember seeing 'The Sound of Music' and 'The Trap' in 1966/67, might well have been in the Odeon.

Derek Brittain was on Course 33. CSman, thanks for update, pass on good wishes to Bob Thursby.

[bcgallacher]

Was it not Bob Thursby who had a prop depart from the engine of a Cambrian Dakota after departing Glasgow sometime in the 60's?

[CSman]

No it was not Bob, it was Figment [John Reed], John kept nearly all in BA amused with his cartoons,not so management, also in the Log from Balpa,happy days

[Chris Scott]

Sorry to hear that Bob Thursby is currently under the wx, CSman: send him my greetings and best wishes.

The nearest I got to losing a prop (as opposed to "losing" an engine) on a Dak was when, having done the routine pre-take-off check of the feathering systems at Gatwick, we gradually realised that the relay controlling the starb'd prop was firmly stuck in the closed (live) position. The prop therefore continued to cycle slowly between fully-fine and fully-feathered. Fortunately, we hadn't even reached the runway when the penny dropped. After we shut the engine down the blades continued to cycle until we turned off the battery master switch and awaited a tug...

[Chris Scott]

The weather was generally kind to us in January, so flying for Course 32 got off to a good start.

"Foxtrot-Oscar" (C150A) over the fence for touchdown on Rwy 23 or 27 - one of my contemporary mounts
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-01-XX-P04PPRuNe_zpsi2xqn2b5.jpg

G-ARSB (C150B) starting a westerly take-off run. The grass looks dry at the time, but note the mud patches on its belly
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-01-XX-P03PPRuNe_zpshhz0cys8.jpg

G-ATEG (C150E) showing the E-model interim combination of a rear window with an unswept fin.
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-01-XX-P01PPRuNe_zpss7fw7nrl.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Accommodation was somewhat haphazard in early 1966, but would improve later in the year when a couple of new blocks were completed. They would boast en-suite washrooms for each student, but no such luxury was available for yours truly in the first half of the year. I had a room in a "Bothy", near the south-east perimeter of the airfield, that I shared with Nigel Flack (Course 31) and Peter Leith-Smith (32)

The "Bothy"
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x392/picture_php_pictureid_238_56b61b906c52ab9b7842dae749b2ce65f3 b5ad87.jpg

The Bothy was about a hundred yards from the messing facilities, which made for slow progress to breakfast when the snow came in February. The photo was probably taken in April or May, apparently looking north-east, and the short-wheelbase Land Rover that was routinely outside by then was Nigel's. It needed a lot of work, and he had the unnerving habit of carrying out some of this while driving. That led to one or two close shaves, earning him the soubriquet - coined by Peter, IIRC - of "Death Flack".

My room, at the front of the Bothy
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x400/picture_php_pictureid_240_f9894a72b1ce59b0a1aff9ad5230995e39 3534bd.jpg

If it was 8 o'clock, as the clock suggests, that would have been P.M.; in which case at 20:00 BST (1900Z) the sunlight streaming in the window at a low angle above the horizon suggests these Bothy photos were taken in late April.

[Chris Scott]

The first snow of 1966 came early in February.

AST Cessna 310 D: either G-ARCH, G-ARCI or G-ARBC
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-02-XX-P01%20-%20Photobucket_zpsvrledzvo.jpg

Flying was mainly suspended for two or three weeks, IIRC: certainly for novices. That was irksome for me, the only BUA cadet on my course with no previous experience. With 6:25 on the C150, I was close to going solo - or so I hoped. The snow and a URI resulted in my being grounded for about four weeks in the end. After a long break at that stage in the game, you don't resume flying quite where you left off.

On the other hand, the enforced break gave us a chance to concentrate on ground school, not to mention socialising. Evening outings were often courtesy of Charles Jordan and Sandy Morris, who gave us lifts - sometimes to the Salutation pub in Perth. The main roads were cleared before the airfield's grass runways, so in daytime I was able to cycle downhill into the city for shopping. The uphill grind on return may have aggravated my feverish URI, it being my first winter outside the Tropics since the age of six.

[Offchocks]

The first snow of 1966 came early in February.

The a/c is an AST Cessna 310 D: either G-ARCI or G-ARBC

They were still flying 7 years later, I started my IR training on these aircraft in Nov '73. My instructors were Captains Bob Critchley, Dave(?) Blair, Ray Elliot and Hector Skinner who ended up being my main instructor, a lovely fellow who got me through without any problems!

Hey CSman, did you get your pprune name from Cyril Sweetman?

Chris Scott thanks for starting this thread. Although I started my training at AST 6 or 7 years after you, a few of the photos posted brought back memories

[CSman]

No ,my user name is the old Cambrian Airways code CS, great days, Cardiff Bristol Southampton Paris Lovely lunch and return all with a DAK

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Manoir:
"The list of AST instructors and staff on your 26th January post doesn't mention Dave Blair, my instructor on singles. I wondered if, by chance, he was seconded from the R.A.F. This might explain why his name was not on the AST payroll and therefore not included in your source material."

That's quite possible, John, or could he have joined AST after that list was prepared?

Hi Offchocks,
Well, it's nice to be praised for self-indulgence: thanks! Re the two C310Ds, Bravo-Charlie and Charlie-India, they represented the whole fleet until G-AVDB, a C310L with redesigned wing-tip tanks that may have improved lateral stability, arrived in Jan/Feb 1967. Perhaps it was also on the fleet in 1973?

I seem to recall that one of the Ds had to land premeditatedly with partial or no L/G (sorry, U/C) on the grass at Scone some time in 1966. The skipper may have been Willy Hamilton, and one engine was conventionally feathered and the prop rotated to horizontal prior to the approach. The landing went well, but there may have been some rippling of the nose fuselage skin. I wonder if Hoddy, whose dad was the station Chief Engineer (see post #98), might remember the aftermath.

[Offchocks]

Hi Chris Scott On 10th Nov. '73 my third training session was on G-AVDB with Dave Blair (Captain Blair as was required then!)

CSman I also flew DAKs after AST, it was with Air Anglia out of ABZ, up and down to Sumburgh and night freight to AMS, nothing flash like lunch in Paris!

[NutherA2]

G-AVDB, a C310L with redesigned wing-tip tanks that may have improved lateral stability, arrived in Jan/Feb 1967. Perhaps it was also on the fleet in 1973? I left the RAF in July, 1974 and went to Perth to obtain the Instrument Rating to complete my application for the ATPL. At that time the 310 fleet was something of a mixed bag, with little or nothing by way of standardisation of aircraft or equipment. At that time the fleet comprised (IIRC):-

GARBC (310 D)
GARCI (310 D)
GAROK (310 F)*
GAVDB (310 L)
GAVUV (310 N)
GAYGB (310 Q)

*This was the aircraft in which Hughie Green had his encounter with Soviet Migs in the Berlin corridor; it was a bit cranky to handle and we wondered whether overstressing the flaps in that confrontation had something to answer for.

[Chris Scott]

Hello NutherA2,
Did you find that the later models of C310 were slightly more stable, laterally, than the C310Ds? Presume G-AVDB is the C310L you refer to on your list.


Not everyone was grounded during the snowy spell of February 1966...

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-02-XX-P02.2%20-%20Photobucket_zps9rulyuzd.jpg

Apron, looking roughly east
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-02-XX-P03%20-%20Photobucket_zpsfkommgtr.jpg

This seems to have been taken just after Foxtrot-India had landed. Think it fair to say that the hill in the background was the most prominent landmark in the circuit, and may have been roughly the end of the downwind leg of a L/H circuit for Rwy 23? Met buffs will note the Stephenson's screen.

[Chris Scott]

Taken on the same day as the three previous, the parking direction of the aircraft in these two photos of the Scone apron confirms that the wind was in the east or NE.

Deep and crisp, but not so even
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-02-XX-P04%20-%20Photobucket_zpsilkhkmny.jpg

One of the four DHC-1s that AST operated. Statistically, it had a 50/50 chance of surviving the year
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1966-02-XX-P05%20-%20Photobucket_zpsnia0oapx.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Scone had a very high number of a/c movements, for obvious reasons. This photo was taken in the winter of 1966/7, by which time I had sufficient credibility to ask permission to take it. The ATCO may be McFarlane, whose Christian name escapes me. The student was a regular in the Tower.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-00-00-P02-AST%20-%20Copy_zps5njvnlj9.jpg

We cadets weren't on first-name terms with any of the staff or instructors, our mutual relationship being rather like that at a boarding school. Hence some of the staff were awarded unofficial nick-names, used only between cadets. In contrast, when I joined my first airline, the majority of captains expected to be addressed by their first names once the cockpit door was closed.

This photo, taken to the SW like the one taken recently and posted in January by dont overfil (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-5.html#post9244536), seems unfortunately to have been more about recording a striking sunset than the aerodrome buildings in the foreground. The buildings, however, are remarkably similar, although the water tank has since disappeared. The lights of the distant city of Perth can just be seen making their presence known in the dusk.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/2016-00-00-P11-AST%20-%20Copy_zpshmytsmu4.jpg

[Chris Scott]

The halving of the AST Chipmunk fleet from four to two during the course of 1966 has already been mentioned in this and the next two posts (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a.html#post9207061), and here (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-2.html#post9207825).

The University Air Squadron Chippies were another matter. This photo was taken from the Tower (probably on the same winter's afternoon as the two in my previous post). A close look at the nearer of the two a/c reveals the R/H spin strake just forward of the tailplane.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-00-00-P03-AST%20-%20Copy_zpsuczlk3m3.jpg

Our a/c didn't have that safety feature...

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-00-00-P08-AST%20-%20Copy_zpsbwqjazya.jpg

[parkfell]

The ATCO standing up is Bill Fogden. Went to Shoreham, and then I think returned to Perth.
He came to Carlisle in 1982. Died 10 years later from lung cancer.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from parkfell:
"The ATCO standing up is Bill Fogden."

Thanks. It's great to post a photo that triggers someone's memory, if somewhat poignant in this case. Evidently a bad guess on my part. The name sounds familiar, but Bill Fogden is not on the early-1966 list of staff (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-5.html#post9249760), prepared nearly a year before the photo was taken.

See what you mean, EGQL64, but the student-assistant was, I think, Indian - not Vulcan! The low, winter sun and shadows have added to the confusion in an over-exposed Kodachrome slide, which is 49 years old...

[Manoir]

As Nuther A2 points out, G-AVDB arrived in early 1967, as I and fellow Course 33 students were beginning I/R training. DB had a quite different cockpit lay-out, especially on radio/nav. This made the learning process more difficult in the early stages. One of our number, Norman Lane, put forward the suggestion that each student be detailed to fly only on DB (or one of the earlier 310s such as BC). I opted for DB (Norman did too, as I recall). This proved to be a winner.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Manoir:
"As Nuther A2 points out, G-AVDB arrived in early 1967, as I and fellow Course 33 students were beginning I/R training."

Yes, although my first Cessna 310 sortie was to Blackpool in G-AVDB in early February (1967). That may have been its first training flight. Note the modified wing-tip tanks of the "L" model, when compared with the "D" models G-ARBC and G-ARCI (see earlier photo).

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST-1967-01-25-P10-AST%20-%20Copy_zps4q48jxqs.jpg

Quote:
"DB had a quite different cockpit lay-out, especially on radio/nav. This made the learning process more difficult in the early stages."

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-01-25-P08-AST%20-%20Copy_zpstrewttzl.jpg

Quote:
"One of our number, Norman Lane, put forward the suggestion that each student be detailed to fly only on DB (or one of the earlier 310s such as BC). I opted for DB (Norman did too, as I recall). This proved to be a winner."

Well John, you were spoiled. Course 32 was offered no such concession! ;)

[Geezer7348]

Scotbill: was that autogyro in fact the Kay Gyroplane G-ACVA? I saw it at Scone in 1962.

Laurence

The Kay Gyroplane was most recently part of the East Fortune Museum and a picture of it is below.

http://s32.postimg.org/6tijobps1/Copy_of_08_07_06_016.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6tijobps1/)

[Trossie]

On Page 2 was the comment:No doubt we shall eventually get on to the Dai H-H stories!Page 7 already and there have been none!


In both those advert movies (1970s/80s and 1994) had Robin Drew as an ATC. He had become one of the 'fixtures'! Apparently he made the 'closing down' broadcast on AST's last day 'in spectacular style'!

(NutherA2, was that you in the twin in the 1970s/80s advert?)

[Chris Scott]

Hi Trossie,

"In both those advert movies (1970s/80s and 1994) had Robin Drew as an ATC. He had become one of the 'fixtures'! Apparently he made the 'closing down' broadcast on AST's last day 'in spectacular style'!"

When was AST's "last day", and do you mean just Airwork's?

[Trossie]

Chris,

Airworks involvement ended some time in the early/mid '90s when Bristow Helicopters became the new owners of AST.

As a Flying School AST shut down around early '96.

(The Engineering School has continued as a part of Perth College.)

Flying training has continued there since under various owners, but very, very small-scale compared with the hey-day of AST, just flying club training and only two or so aeroplanes for any M/E IR training.

[NutherA2]

Yes, Trossie, well spotted.

[Manoir]

Brilliant pics, Chris!

Where's Footie?:

[Manoir]

CSMan,

I'll be in Cardiff on 7 and 8 July. Would you be available for a catch-up over a beer?

[CSman]

Yep,, if you make it the 7th, Bob Thursby Peter Steely John Barron and I take ale every Thursday

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, Manoir. Don't think I've got one of my own of "Footie", but there may be one in one of the school magazines when I have a chance to dig them out again. Bit tied up until the 24th, and then going on holiday...

Here's the course photo for Course 34. As usual, it's scanned from the AST magazine. Should've posted it earlier, as the course started proper in early May 1966. Evidently a small course, unless there were absentees for the photo-shoot. Regret I only have the names of the BUA students, but maybe Norman will remember some of the others.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST%20Course%2034_zps0g345jhu.jpg

Back row, L to R: 1 (?), Norman Evans, Graham Sturrock, 4 (?)
Front row, L to R: 1 (?), Gordon Ross-Munro, Dougie Mackay, 4 (?), Pete Buchanan

[Manoir]

Great, CSman!

Can you make contact via 'Private Messages' and we can fine-tune things?

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Manoir:
"Brilliant pics, Chris!
Where's Footie?"

Sadly, I don't have one of my own. But The Journal for Winter 1965/66 provides the following, the first page of a two-page spread:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST%20Instructors%20Winter%201965-66%20-%20P1050450_zps89p2nug3.jpg

Capt Alec Peddell, who sent me solo - but left AST not long after for a similar job at Hamble in the Spring of 1966;
Capt Ray Foote, who instructed on all types;
Capt Bill(?) Stone;
Jamie Hunter, who was a dedicated and supportive ground instructor, later moving to the Carlisle flying school;
John Brown, who introduced us to procedural I/F in the Link Trainer;
Capt Terry Capon, who was Course 32 flying instructor, later becoming a Herald skipper in BUA(Manx)/BUIA/BIA before joining the Caledonian-BUA (later BCAL) VC10 fleet in 1971 as a co-pilot.

[Offchocks]

Capt Bill(?) Stone
For some reason I thought it was John Stone, wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken.

[Chris Scott]

Offchocks,
Methinks you are right.

[Manoir]

That's him! (Footie).

[Chris Scott]

Okay chaps,

Here's the other side of that two-page spread:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST%20Instructors%20Winter%201965-66%20-%20P1050451_zps9daovofa.jpg

Capt Lew Hurrell;
Capt Andy Pankhurst;
Capt D (?) Kirkpatrick;
Mr (?) Robertson, a kindly gent who - among other things - taught us to send and read Morse;
Mr (?) Allen;
Mr Mackay, whose catering efforts encouraged me in desperation to develop a taste for sheep's liver - daubed with copious amounts of English mustard...

[Manoir]

These pictures really bring it back! Great that you were able to source these, Chris.

Jack Robertson - as you say a kindly man who brought a very human touch to his instructing. He was a smoker (weren't they nearly all back then?) and he walked with a pronounced limp - the result of an illness, I seem to remember him telling us. He spoke with a Canadian accent and had flown DC 6s.

Jamie Hunter - to this day, I can hear his voice in my mind's ear! Strong Scottish tones with a slight nasal quality. He struggled to pronounce some of the Aer Lingus names in Irish. Sometimes joked about his hangovers...

[Offchocks]

Mr (?) Allen
I am fairly sure this is John Allen who taught us Navigation General and Meteorology. A good instructor and nice bloke, although a little pessimistic on the future of aviation during what was the first oil crisis, this is just what we needed to know and especially since I was self funded!

Ah sheep's liver, haute cuisine. Try the stew with bits of meat still having fur attached ..... yum!

[Chris Scott]

50 years ago, at the end of January 1967, Course 32 was getting ready for our CPL GFTs. Mine was programmed for the 25th, as can be seen on the Flying Programme for that day:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-01-25-P01-AST%20-%20Copy_zpssbh1dsap.jpg

Bad weather delayed my GFT until the 26th. My examiner was the legendary Captain Jimmy Joy, from CAFU at Stansted.

Progress with flying hours of the individual students was also displayed in chinagraph pencil on a perspex board. Hours were a matter of great interest to us all. This is the Course 32 board on 25/1/67:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-01-25-P02-AST%20-%20Copy_zpsgpfi5czl.jpg

The three Nepalese students are shown at the bottom. They were not being prepared for Instrument Ratings, but were already on the Cessna 310.

[Manoir]

Chris,

Great to see these programmes after 50 years! Most of us on Course 33 would have done our GFT by Christmas so progressing to the 172 for us would have begun in January. Your efforts in unearthing all this source material half a century later is much appreciated.

[Chris Scott]

Quote:
"Most of us on Course 33 would have done our GFT by Christmas..."

I rather doubt that, John, because on Course 32 we only started our CPL GFTs at the end of January (see my post). Very late, admittedly.

BTW, what was the rationale of going on to the C172 before the IR course on the C310?

[EDIT]
Since my question above, and having looked at an article in a contemporary edition of The Journal (the AST magazine), it seems that Manoir is right to suggest that students normally got some flying on the C172 between completing the CPL GFT and starting the Instrument Rating course on the C310. The article points out that the 172, with its larger instrument panel, had R/Nav aids - lacking on the C150s. Presumably that might allow some familiarisation with RMIs. The Link Trainer on which students were introduced to procedural instrument flying was not fitted with RMIs. Its ADF display, for example, was a traditional relative-bearing indicator.

In view of the fact that I never got any recordable flying on a 172, I can only assume that my sponsor, BUA, was trying to reduce costs for its Course 32 students. Whereas hours on the C150 were charged at the modest rate of £7/10/- (if memory serves), the C172 would have been nearer £10.

On reflection that might have been a false economy because - whereas the three C310s (G-ARBC, G-ARCH and G-ARCI) lacked RMIs, if memory serves - the fourth one that arrived in early February of '67 had an ADF RMI, as can be seen in my photo here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-7.html#post9353351

With flying on the C310 being charged at the princely sum of £30 per hour (yes! :rolleyes:), the less time wasted due to unnecessary confusion on instrumentation the better. However, another problem for flying on the 172 was availability. There were only two, IIRC, and they were popular with non-student members of the Scottish Aero Club.

Those students that had only flown solo in the C150, which by 1966/7 represented the great majority, might also have been given some hours on the Chipmunk after GFT. By the time Course 32 had reached that stage, however, only two Chippies were remaining of the original four, two having been written-off in crashes during 1966:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a.html#post9207293

[Chris Scott]

Something we haven't covered so far is night-flying training, which had culminated in two cross-country flights to Edinburgh (Turnhouse) and back - the first dual and the second solo - before we did our CPL GFTs. In my case it started in the second week of November and totalled about 12 hours' flying in 8 weeks, of which 4 hours were dual. This was interspersed with our normal day flying, which was mainly solo and cross-country and included landings away from Perth, plus our CPL GFT cross-country with the CFI, Don Pow. All this had taken us through December and into January, with about 12 days' leave over Christmas and New Year.

It's probably worth mentioning something about the Scone airfield and the aeroplane. The runways and taxiing routes outside the apron area were all grass, and after a spell of wet weather the very high number of movements resulted in the softer areas becoming very muddy. Aircraft occasionally got stuck. One fairly effective taxiing technique on the C150 was to apply a lot of power and full up-elevator just before reaching a muddy patch, and speed across it. So much for the recommended "fast walking-pace"...

Unfortunately, night flying in Scotland in summer is virtually impossible, and the autumn and spring tend to be wet. So winter conditions can be the best.

Parts of the runways at Scone also became soft and muddy. On take-off the C150 would un-stick at about 45 mph IAS. It was not uncommon to reach about 40 mph, then hit a soft patch. At night that happened with little warning from the landing lights, and the IAS sometimes decayed for some seconds before increasing again. The trees not far beyond the end of the westerly runways were invisible.

The C150's achilles-heel was the nose-gear leg, which had a tendency to collapse. The most common cause seemed to be a fast landing with touchdown on three points on soft ground, and I don't recall any breaking on take-off while I was there. I don't think we were allowed to touch-and-go at night, but I stand to be corrected.

After a few sessions of circuit-bashing, we did a couple of local excursions a few miles away to Newburgh or Coupar Angus so as to practise rejoining the circuit at night. Later, the night cross-countries to Edinburgh took us ESE at 2500 ft to Creil, on the east coast of Fife, and then WSW along the coast via Leven and Kirkcaldy to a place called Aberdour. There we had to hold until Turnhouse Approach gave us clearance to cross the Firth of Forth and join the circuit. Plenty of lights of habitation except over the centre of Fife and, of course, the Firth. The latter looks very wide and dark when on the wrong side of it in a single-engined aeroplane at 2000 ft, the altitude ATC cleared me to hold at Aberdour on my solo trip.

[Offchocks]

In the years between when you were there Chris and when I started in 1973, the management must have recognized the problem that the soft ground would cause and constructed two paved runways. They still had one grass runway, but it was not the best.

[Chris Scott]

Yes Offchocks,

I found some current information, courtesy of SkyVector. It includes links to a couple of good, recent images from short-finals on Rwys 03 and 09:
https://skyvector.com/airport/EGPT/Perth-Scone-Airport

Here's the ICAO State Approach (VDF) and aerodrome chart, issued in 1965. The Tay Estuary is clearly shown as far as Dundee (Riverside Park) airfield and the Tay Bridge. The disused airfield on the way there is, of course, Errol, and those power lines are also shown.

On the Scone aerodrome chart, I've roughly superimposed the runways as configured today. Rwy 15/33 is still grass. Is that how they were in 1973? They are all significantly shorter than their grass predecessors. Judging from the Google satellite map, the perimeter road seems to have changed little since the 1960s.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/AST%20Aerodrome%20amp%20VDF%20Chart%20-%20Copy_zpsg53mp3ns.jpg

[Offchocks]

Yes Chris that was the same configuration in 1973. From what I can remember, I think I only used the grass runway 15 a couple of times.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Offchocks. Quote:
"In the years between when you were there Chris and when I started in 1973, the management must have recognized the problem that the soft ground would cause and constructed two paved runways. They still had one grass runway, but it was not the best."

To resume that discussion, I think the two UAS Chippies in this photo - taken around January 1967 - were doing their engine run-ups prior to take-off on the then Rwy 05 (see aerodrome chart). You will well remember the heavily wooded area that dominated the western flank of the aerodrome - and still does I think.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-00-00-P03-AST%20-%20Copy_zpsuczlk3m3.jpg

The next photo was probably taken at dusk on the same day, looking due east with G-ARZX passing over the boundary fence at the south-west corner of the airfield for landing on Rwy 05.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h335/Chris_Scott_46/AST%20Perth/1967-00-00-P05-AST%20-%20Copy_zpsxnav3nns.jpg

The soft and/or bumpy grass runways were, as previously discussed, particularly hard on the Cessna 150 nose-gear, contributing to several collapses in my time at Scone - usually, admittedly, when landing too fast. But it may have also had a detrimental effect on the landing gear of the much-faster Cessna 310s, which I plan to touch on later.

[Offchocks]

According to Google maps the woods are still there at the end of RWY27, would not have been too pretty if you lost an engine just after takeoff in a C150!

[dont overfil]

The final days of AST Flight Training at Perth.

July 1996 the last of the Warriors being delivered to Oxford Air Training. I delivered G-BTRY.

http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-last-days-picture587-scan0009.jpg
http://www.pprune.org/members/186894-dont-overfil-albums-last-days-picture588-scan0006.jpg

Offchocks,
Yes, the woods are still there. However, the line of trees nearest the runway have been cut down. Still a bad place for an EFTO!

[RCeb]

Hi All,

I am trying to track down a few photos.

I'm looking for photos of the year 1966/67 (course 33)

I had previously contacted AST however they don't have any class photographs going back as AST has changed ownership on a few occasions and sadly they do not hold this information.

Any help would be much appreciated. :ok:

Thanks,
R

[Airclues]

Plenty of photos on this thread but not sure about course 33;

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a.html?highlight=Perth

See post number 57

[RCeb]

Thanks for your help.

I had found that thread but was hoping for more photos of classes/people.

Hopefully I will stumble across some more

[bcgallacher]

As far as AST Scone records are concerned I have recently been informed that Perth Library holds records that were handed over on closure of the school.

[RCeb]

Thanks @bcgallacher

Hopefully I can track something down!

I'll be sure to post anything I do manage to get here.

Thanks again.

[cj241101]

In my previous post about the expansion of the C150 fleet during 1966, I had forgotten that G-ATAT - a 150E - was already there, and that it had the original fin shape. The photo shows clearly, however, that it has the rear-view cockpit windows of the later 150 models. IIRC it also has the electric flaps. So the E-model seems to have marked the transition to the later models. I never understood if their fins were swept for reasons aerodynamic, structural, or merely cosmetic!
Wondering if anyone has any recollection - or even better colour photos - of the F.150G's that arrived late 1966/early 1967 (G-ATZY/Z, G-AVAA/B/C, G-AVEM/N/O/P). Have found a couple of B&W photos but I am keen to find out the actual colours (modelling project). Thanks to anyone who can help with this one.

[dont overfil]

Wondering if anyone has any recollection - or even better colour photos - of the F.150G's that arrived late 1966/early 1967 (G-ATZY/Z, G-AVAA/B/C, G-AVEM/N/O/P). Have found a couple of B&W photos but I am keen to find out the actual colours (modelling project). Thanks to anyone who can help with this one.

Unlike the later Warriors the C150's did not have a company colour scheme. I think they came with Cessna's "colour of the year."

I last saw G-ATZY about 15 years ago and the paint was extremely faded so could still have been origional. Maybe aircraft engineers, who are showing as owners, have it on their apron at Prestwick can help. It's probably a future "project. Ask for Adnan. Maybe even a spotters site like Jetphotos. I looked up G-AVEN on the G-INFO site and it looks much like the origional scheme.

The next fleet of C150's delivered, mostly had the classic Aerobat colour scheme of white with blue and red or red with blue and checkers on the tail.

[treadigraph]

G-AVEN: flew in that a couple of times when it was based at Shoreham, some 30 years ago...

[cj241101]

Unlike the later Warriors the C150's did not have a company colour scheme. I think they came with Cessna's "colour of the year."


Thanks for the reply - gives me something to work on. Medium blue and the standard Cessna scheme from 1967 looks like being the order of the day. From photos there looks to be a small "AST" logo on the top half of the fin.
https://i.imgur.com/DaOO8L3.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Quote from cj241101:
"Medium blue and the standard Cessna scheme from 1967 looks like being the order of the day. From photos there looks to be a small "AST" logo on the top half of the fin."

Yes, that's correct. In 1966, as you seem to have noticed, the older C150s had the small AST badge on the fin - as seen on my photos of G-ARFO and G-ARSB:

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-6.html#post9309511

At that time the fleet was expanding rapidly with Rheims-built machines and perhaps there simply wasn't time to fit the badges to newly-delivered aircraft - or perhaps they were not available.

By October 1966, according to my logbook, new deliveries had got as far as G-ATOG, a C150F (swept-fin).

BTW, I see that aircraft went on to have a chequered career:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=18570

Sorry for the late response.

Hi dont overfil,
Several of your posts and nice contemporary photos of the aerodrome seem to have gone missing from the early pages of this thread?

[Chris Scott]

Hi RCeb,
Quote (8th November):
"I'm looking for photos of the year 1966/67 (course 33)"

How are you getting on? I missed your request at the time, but I see Airclues referred you to Manoir's post #57 on this thread, to which he had attached a course photo obtained from a fellow student.

I now see that that photo seems to be missing, and I now realise that all the photos I posted in the early pages of this thread - as well as dont overfil's - have also disappeared. My missing photos are the ones posted from my PPRuNe "Albums". Later, because I'd been having a few problems posting them, I switched to using Photobucket. The first of those images, of Course 31, is here at #92:
https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-5.html#post9245200

Can you or anyone else please confirm that that photo is visible to everyone?

[dont overfil]

Hi RCeb,
Quote (8th November):
"I'm looking for photos of the year 1966/67 (course 33)"

How are you getting on? I missed your request at the time, but I see Airclues referred you to Manoir's post #57 on this thread, to which he had attached a course photo obtained from a fellow student.

I now see that that photo seems to be missing, and I now realise that all the photos I posted in the early pages of this thread - as well as dont overfil's - have also disappeared. My missing photos are the ones posted from my PPRuNe "Albums". Later, because I'd been having a few problems posting them, I switched to using Photobucket. The first of those images, of Course 31, is here at #92:
https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-5.html#post9245200

Can you or anyone else please confirm that that photo is visible to everyone?
My photos are still there. Remember you need to be logged in to see all of them.
I don't use Photobucket as they had issues with the photos being posted on some sites.

To keep you up to date. ACS, the operators of Perth airport are now under new management. They have invested in new and refurbished aircraft, a new DA42 simulator and various infrastructure improvements.

It's the start of a new era.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from dont overfil:
"My photos are still there. Remember you need to be logged in to see all of them."

Yes, and likewise to post a message! ;) I'd also verified that they were still in my PPRuNe "Albums" before scanning through the pages a second time to no avail.

Funny thing is that you are quite right: today they've all reappeared, including yours and Manoir's. Mysterious.

Quote:
"To keep you up to date. ACS, the operators of Perth airport are now under new management. They have invested in new and refurbished aircraft, a new DA42 simulator and various infrastructure improvements.
It's the start of a new era."

Terrific! I should come up and have a look. Last time I visited was all-too-briefly in the early '90s, when on a stand-over day in ABZ.

In the meantime, all the best.

[longer ron]

I picked up this little lapel badge a while ago,just because it is AST related
Does anybody know the background to this particular badge ?
It does look like it has egyptian connections with a Sphinx like head in the centre of the wings.But the wings are unusually long for a small badge (high aspect ratio :) )

http://i.imgur.com/9YD11xU.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/vu3LEoe.jpg?1

At the moment I have added it to our aviation collection in our display unit,luckily my GF/partner is an aviation enthusiast :)

[Geezer7348]

I picked up this little lapel badge a while ago,just because it is AST related
Does anybody know the background to this particular badge ?
It does look like it has egyptian connections with a Sphinx like head in the centre of the wings.But the wings are unusually long for a small badge (high aspect ratio :) )

http://i.imgur.com/9YD11xU.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/vu3LEoe.jpg?1

At the moment I have added it to our aviation collection in our display unit,luckily my GF/partner is an aviation enthusiast :)

You can find some background behind the company emblem at the time on the extract below from the AST History book.

https://s18.postimg.org/9vl6mcm1l/extract.jpg

[longer ron]

Many thanks for the info Geezer - I was more used to seeing the later double headed badge :)

rgds LR

[tubby linton]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1849x1199/e3c095a6_1bfb_4583_9e61_7c2c9f2b7436_b571b97ebd02c0c9e8eda93 17e30f8a5117bd067.jpeg
Ozzy Brown’s birthday. CSMan is next to the bannister post

[Chris Scott]

Thanks for that, tubby,

Looks like it was quite a party! Do you have a location, context, and a rough date? You will know, of course, of Terry's passing, but - for any reader who hasn't learned the sad news:
https://www.pprune.org/where-they-now/616026-captain-terry-morgan-csman.html#post10327412

R.I.P.

Chris

[Chris Scott]

The recent, untimely passing of former, fellow-AST students Bob Thursby and Terry Morgan have motivated me to try and recover some of the images that - for one reason or another - have dropped out from my own postings. I'm hoping that the system that displays images resourced from our personal albums on PPRuNe may, under the new PPRuNe format, be a bit more robust than previously.

Unfortunately, images posted by Manoir (course 33), dont overfil and the late CSman (Terry Morgan, course 35) have also disappeared, and that's beyond my remit. But they should be fairly easy to resurrect...

Happy New Year, everyone!
Chris (course 32)

[Chris Scott]

Hi Ssmith67,

I have tried to reply to your PM but to my surprise the system says the following:

Ssmith67 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

Please let me know here when you have rectified that, and I'll send my message again.

Regards,
Chris

[Crashmonster]

While I appreciate that this is a pretty old thread I hope I can be forgiven.

I regret to inform those interested in AST and its past pupils that Peter Harrison of course 30 passed away early this morning after a long battle with Parkinsons disease. He was until recently working on the rebuild of an Auster J/1-N which provided him many hours of pleasure in the work, an aviation enthusiast to the very end.

[BobH]

Very sorry to hear this sad news a couple of weeks ago, but have only just seen this post from Crashmonster. Pete was a true enthusiast, and dealt with his illness with great courage and tenacity over many years with never a complaint. Very helpful as my LAA Inspector for several years, and between us, we were trustees of the whole surviving fleet of AVM 'Pathfinder' Bennett's foray into aircraft manufacturing; the Fairtravel Linnet!
When he managed to get airborne, the Parkinson's wobbles seemed to go away, and he was back in his element. I'll never forget a wonderful flight with Pete in his Tiger Moth one summer's evening . . low n slow along the South Downs, with the shadows lengthening over the village green etc etc, rounded off by him greasing it on in a lovely three pointer back at the strip. Heaven really was the English countryside framed in the Tiger's struts and wires that evening. Thank you Peter!

[Chris Scott]

Hello Crashmonster and BobH, you are both most welcome - albeit with sad news of Peter Harrison (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=9236382). IIRC, he was a Cambrian cadet, and probably ended up in BA. If so, he was presumably on long-haul, as I never met him after AST. I had no idea he was such an active aviator in retirement.

Thank you both for your nice anecdotes, and I only wish that you and Pete had stumbled upon this under-used thread years earlier. The ranks of Course 30 sadly lost Bob Thursby just under two years ago, as reported at the time by his good friend Terry Morgan (alias CSman, who was active on this thread). Terry was another Cambrian cadet, (Course 35) that ended up in BA. He only outlived Bob, I'm sorry to say, by a couple of months.

EDIT
bean has corrected my first paragraph: Peter was a BUA-sponsored cadet (see post below).

[bean]

Chris, i never new Peter Harrison personally bit i can tell you he was a BUA sponsored cadet. After the closure of BU(ci) A in 1968 he worked for Jersey Aeroclub for a while and joined the BEA Jersey base on Viscounts in 1970

[Chris Scott]

Thanks bean, I stand corrected. Evidently, more BUA cadets were seconded to BUA(CI) at Jersey on the Dart Herald than I had remembered. Those of us who were sent to fly more pedestrian types like the Bristol 170 ("Frightner") at Lydd or, in my case, Herons and Dakotas at Gatwick were envious of their good fortune. But Alan Bristow's closure of BUA(CI) after the strike in 1968 resulted in their being ejected from the BUA group. That was very unfair, considering they had only been sent there on secondment. They were not the only ex-cadets to strike against Bristow's attempt to exclude BALPA from negotiations of pay and conditions, and must have been under much pressure from their seniors, who had much more to lose from Bristow's reorganisation of the unprofitable BUA group.

So it seems that Course 30 represented a mixture of British airline cadets, in addition to J P Singh. Looking again at that course photo (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/571663-s-t-perth-scone-1966-a-post9236382.html), and realising the gaps in my memory, I'm starting to think that Tony Hanson was also a BUA cadet (as I was, on Course 32). We BUA cadets were scattered far and wide after leaving Scone, and rarely came into contact.

[BobH]

Thanks bean, I stand corrected. Evidently, more BUA cadets were seconded to BUA(CI) at Jersey on the Dart Herald than I had remembered. Those of us who were sent to fly more pedestrian types like the Bristol 170 ("Frightner") at Lydd or, in my case, Herons and Dakotas at Gatwick were envious of their good fortune. But Alan Bristow's closure of BUA(CI) after the strike in 1968 resulted in their being ejected from the BUA group. That was very unfair, considering they had only been sent there on secondment. They were not the only ex-cadets to strike against Bristow's attempt to exclude BALPA from negotiations of pay and conditions, and must have been under much pressure from their seniors, who had much more to lose from Bristow's reorganisation of the unprofitable BUA group.

So it seems that Course 30 represented a mixture of British airline cadets, in addition to J P Singh. Looking again at that course photo and realising the gaps in my memory, I'm starting to think that Tony Hanson was also a BUA cadet (as I was, on Course 32). We BUA cadets were scattered far and wide after leaving Scone, and rarely came into contact.

Apologies for being so late (three years to the day since your last message on this thread!), but just to confirm that Tony Hanson was a Cambrian student. Ex Merchant Navy (like several others in those days as the fleet contracted), and ended up as a BA 747 skipper. I have the occasional beer with him. He reminds me he not only won the Principal's Award for 30 Course, but also the gong as Ace-of-the-Base for the whole year!! (Don't know what happened to all that talent in the years since . . )

I also have to pass on the sad news that another student on this, the first Cambrian course, Roger Whitlam, passed away a few days ago after a short battle with a particularly aggressive cancer.

[Gordomac]

I'm sure I waded through all of this before. Fearsome read. Brings back very fond memories.

With all the photos and name dropping, forgive me Chris, I think I emailed a Question and "Offchocks", just PM'd you. My interest was in the DanAir cadet. Was that Hassan ?

Long lost contact but at our last meeting, "Hoss" revealed that he was sponsored to AST by DanAir. Jaw dropped as I thought I knew everything about sponsored pilot training and while being aware of the occasional one-odd deal, had no idea Dan did that. Hass failed to expand the conversation but giggled an awful lot.

Sadly, we lost contact.

Sponsored pilot training and names popped up again in the local, co-incident with AST thread rising up again. I was able to determine that Dan DID sponsor one bloke and whiles unable to verify the story, even knew the rotter.

Blimey, had I known DA was sponsoring, I would have joined as a Loader, worked my way into Ops, got my big Sis(Ops Sec) to to do unheard of things to secure my sponsorship. Gosh, might have even joined the Withdean Lodge..............oh ok, i'll stop there....................

[Gordomac]

OFFCHOCKS : Thanks V much for the PM reply. The Dan debate continues in the Taverna and the "one" Dan sponsored Cadet I thought I knew wasn't ! Maybe there were two ?