Paid to fly?

[dont overfil]

Can an EASA CPL holder be paid to fly an owner in that owners N reg aircraft in the UK?


Thanks for any input.

[Globally Challenged]

By definition I would say no.

You need a CPL to fly for reward and to fly an N-Reg, it would need to be an FAA CPL

[dont overfil]

Thanks GC.

[750k]

I think you will find you can fly for money with a CPL, and if your licence is a uk issued easa licence you can also fly in uk airspace, so yes you can. I believe.

[welliewanger]

The CPL allows you to earn money by flying. But you have to have a license which allows you to fly the aircraft. AFAIK you have to have an FAA license to fly N reg aircraft.

[Pace]

Your EASA Licenses have no relevance to N reg FAA aircraft.
Even if you held an FAA PPL you could not receive payment for flying A privately owned FAA reg aircraft you would have to hold an FAA CPL.

That is the whole basis and stupidity of the EASA dual licence requirements for FAA licensed pilots to hold equivalent EASA licenses.Those EASA licenses have no legal standing on an FAA reg aircraft and are worthless bits of paper as far as FAA reg aircraft are concerned

Pace

[BizJetJock]

Not correct, Pace
From the FARs
§61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a) Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person:

(1) Has in the person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization—

(i) A pilot certificate issued under this part and in accordance with §61.19;

(ii) ...

(v) When operating an aircraft within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used.

The FAA have already ruled that for the purposes of this paragaph EASAland is one country.
So, yes is the answer to the OP's question.

[dont overfil]

Thanks again guys. I guess my buddy will need to carry copies of the legislation with him.
I remember Dennis Kenyon being prosecuted for something similar but that may have been pre EASA.

[Pace]

BizJetJock

So you are saying that under these regulations a EASA Licensed pilot with say a Lear 45 type rating and an EASA ATP can use those licences alone to work on a FAA N Reg Lear 45 based in Europe and can fly that Jet in and over any country signed up to the EASA regulations?
If so why do so many write here asking whats required to get FAA licences from their EASA licences to do just that. You say nothing just get on with it all is legal?

Wow

Unbelievable

Pace

[ATOguy]

That's certainly what the regs say. Of course it wasn't the case with JAR licenses because they were issued by the individual countries. I also wouldn't really want to argue the point with a French SAFA inspector!

[750k]

Pace, I believe the reason this is not used much is that if your easa licence was issued in the uk, you can only fly the said N reg a/c in uk airspace only.
Not much use for a Lear 45 or any other jet !

[rightbank]

I have no knowledge on this issue other than what is on this thread but taking BJJ's post as verbatim

The FAA have already ruled that for the purposes of this paragaph EASAland is one country.


It would seem that you could fly the Lear 45 throughout Europe.

[Charley]

The FAA have already ruled that for the purposes of this paragaph EASAland is one country.

BJJ - do you have a reference to that? Only I can provide one to suggest the polar opposite.

My understanding is that the holder of, say, a UK-issued EASA licence is able to operate an N-registered aircraft commercially within the UK subject to any regulations and conditions stipulated by that country. However they are not able to fly said N-registered aircraft beyond the territorial borders of whichever country (or, precisely, whichever contracting state, and EASA is not a contracting state) issued that licence.

I stress that this is only my understanding and I'm happy to be corrected with more recent evidence than I have.

My source: the FAA (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2004/speciale%20-%20%282004%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf) albeit discussing the JAA rather than EASA, back in 2004.

My exposure? I fly an EU-based, N-registered aircraft for my day job. Admittedly, I am dual-rated, also holding appropriate FAA certificates, unlike some of my colleagues who operate the same aircraft domestically perfectly legally.

[ATOguy]

Hi Charley,
Sorry, I haven't got a written reference for that. I was told by a UK CAA inspector that this was so.
The difference between JAA and EASA is that JAA was just an agreement between countries to make the rules the same, therefore a Belgian JAA license was still a Belgian license. But under EASA they are all EASA licenses and therefore the fact that it was issued in Belgium is irrelevant, it is also a French or German license.
Of course all academic for most Bizjet ops as the owner will usually want to be able to fly outside the EASA region if he needs to without having to go and find a different crew.

[Pace]

EASA are just a regulatory body which individual countries within the EU sign up to those regulations.

They may sign up to use these regulations and licensing methods but EASA regulations are not a country and signing up doesn't make Europe a country. Each member state has its own regulatory authority and is a separate country

EASA are trying to get a BASA with the FAA so that converting one to the other should be simpler but I have been approached by pilots to fly on the N reg jet I fly as Captain and they have approached the CAA the last was probably 6 months ago.

To fly within Europe they were told they needed FAA licences unless there has been a very recent change this is misinformation and interpretation being placed above, Before the end of 2017 we may not even be in that club the way polls are going
So I would certainly get a written response from the CAA stating you can fly an N reg on an EASA license throughout Europe before flying an N reg out of the UK as your insurance will be void as well as flying illegally

ATOguy many smaller private jets confine their operations to within Europe . You say you have a letter from a CAA inspector ? Photograph it and post it here. If it was just a verbal opinion its not worth anything as inspectors get things wrong or misunderstand what you are saying in a verbal dialogue as I have seen numerous times. So in writing please

There is a big issue at the moment requiring fully licensed ATPS flying N reg Based in Europe to hold EASA equivalent licenses which have no legal bearing on FAA aircraft
What you are saying is that the other way around an EASA pilot with no FAA licenses can fly the N reg jet around Europe? I have never heard such a ridiculous statement. i don't think the FAA would approve that when their own legally qualified pilots are banned?

Pace

[McDoo]

Surely the easy answer is to persuade the boss to put the aircraft on Manx/2/T7/P4/ZJ register and carry on as you wish?

[Charley]

ATOGuy - thanks for the feedback, the explanation is much appreciated. :ok:

Broadly speaking though, I'm inclined to fall-in with Pace on this one. It isn't something I'd personally encourage someone else to start doing unless I had some cast-iron, audit-able proof that it is approved. Believe me, it would be nice for my operator if it were, but having scoured the websites of the FAA, EASA and Google, I've found nothing from the FAA to say it's okay. The FAA routinely produce determinations of policy but in the absence of a new one, I only have the old one -- and it says 'no'. Verbal approvals don't often cut it these days when the **** hits the fan.

Reference the difference between EASA and JAA; again, I'm not actually convinced. The suggestion is that the JAA was just a loose collection of nations working together, and that EASA somehow trumps that so individual nations don't matter. If that's true, why is Item 1 on an EASA licence still 'State of Issue'?

Again, I've not personally come across anything where the FAA categorically states it now considers EASA to be a single entity insofar as §61.3 is concerned.

I would welcome being proved wrong on this and I'd quite happily wear the party-pooper hat if so. ;)

STOP PRESS - new information

Sorry guys, I was determined to find something so looked again. I found something.

I found something that says the FAA do not consider EASA to be 'one' when it comes to §61.3. In fact, I found it 3 times.

a Contracting State to the European Economic Area is irrelevant (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/condell%20-%20%282009%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf)
A licence issued by the United Kingdom is only valid on N-registered aircraft within the United Kingdom (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/entwistle-jet-careinternational%20-%20%282014%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf)
the "obligation does not change simply because the EU member states recognize each other's licenses under a common licensing scheme" (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/graziano%20-%20%282014%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf)

Unless something else is brought up on paper, I think that's fairly substantive. Don't Overfill -- I'd say you can do what you originally asked, but be wary of exporting that permission across the UK's borders, you might be on shaky ground if you did.

[winkwink]

I agree. Flight within the airspace of the issuing COUNTRY of the pilot licence is legal. Outside that airspace.....no.

[No Fly Zone]

Rather than asking the question here, where it has been asked a dozen times, CONTACT the UK's embassy (or elsewhere) via email and ask for a reasonable point of contact for UK's idea of EASA regulations.
When asked here, you will likely get THREE different answers, all FOUR probably wrong.
I'd make a guess, but I too would probably get it wrong, so I decline.
When you get an official answer, Please let us know what it says. It will probably remain valid for all of ten days. Been there! Whatever response you obtain, carry a copy with you and don't screw up even parking regulations.:8:ugh:

[dont overfil]

He has! Still waiting.

[B200Drvr]

You cannot fly an "N" reg airplane for compensation or hire in a foreign country without at least an FAA Commercial certificate.
Private pilots certificate is something completely different, but often restricts you to DAY VFR.
The regs are there, you just have to find them!!