Jetstar loading issues

[rob_ginger]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, but the ABC News web site has this article on a couple of Jetstar "oopsies" in October:

Jetstar plane investigated after passengers had to move due to balance issue

Jetstar plane investigated after passengers had to move due to balance issue - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-03/two-jetstar-planes-in-trouble-due-to-passenger-numbers/6999898)

[dogcharlietree]

I like the second part of that article;

Second Jetstar flight being investigated
ATSB will also examine another Jetstar flight 10 days earlier, which took off with 16 more passengers than the pilots knew about.
As a result, the flight from Brisbane to Melbourne was more than 1,300 kilograms heavier than the crew was anticipating.

Is CASA going to suspend the Captain's licence, like they did to me (over 21 years ago)? :mad:

C'mon CASA. What are you going to do....double standards, eh???

[Going Nowhere]

"We've had no flights operate with this type of error since we introduced these measures."

So what type of errors have they had since?

[Wunwing]

As well as the obvious weight and balance issues in both of these incidents, what about the security issues?

How did 16 extra pax get on board without the crew knowing or did the cabin crew have a different count to the pilots? If they did what sort of procedures allow that to not be compared prior to flight?

There is also the issue of the new kiosk/home computer check in. How does the kiosk/computer know that (for example take any number) the 20 larger than normal footballer pax sitting together may pose a weight and balance problem? Since this system replaces the previous human one who could see this problem as it evolves, what computer input looks at this?

Surely when the bright young things came up with this someone should have asked the questions.

I recently went SYD/MEL/SYD on another carrier using the home computer printout and at no time was my identity checked against my boarding pass.

Like automated aircraft ,the automated checkin systems seems to have evolved into a system that has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Wunwing

[Capn Bloggs]

The pilot said it was necessary to pull back almost completely on the controls in order to lift the nose off the runway.
They're not controls, they're joysticks! :}

[Wunwing]

so the joysticks don't control the aircraft?

[Capn Bloggs]

Lighten up, onewing, it was a joke... :)

[Willie Nelson]

Dogcharlietree,

Thankfully, things have changed a bit in the last 21 years. I imagine that's exactly what would have happened back in "the good old days".

The crew may not have been aware of it for a number of reasons. The investigation will reveal all soon enough.

I hope you got back to flying soon enough.

[dogcharlietree]

Hi Willie.
No. The bastards stopped me getting at least two jobs.
Am I bitter and twisted? You bet your sweet Nellie I am.
I guess I'd better have a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down.;)

[dogcharlietree]

And for info, there was one pax on my flight who I was totally unaware of and to this day, I still don't know who authorised her or why I was not informed. :(

[PoppaJo]

Tiger was grounded for reasons known, and showing very little procedure change in house, they were halted and severely restricted afterwards they were granted flying rights.

Jetstar is the same, serious incidents are continuing yet no penalties/restrictions/warnings? I've lost count the amount of incidents over the last 24 months.

What am I missing here? Where's the show cause?

[waren9]

qantas owns casa.

we all know that.

[mppgf]

Poppa Joe,
Apart from these two.Could you list 5 serious incidents at Jetstar in the last 24 months ?

[wanabee777]

I knew captains who would hold the push until they received a manual head count from the flight attendants.

If the manual passenger count didn't match the numbers uploaded from the gate agents, the captains would delay the push further until the discrepancy was resolved.

Wise men, these captains.

[fender]

This will surley get me banned forever from this site but even as a rumour site, it has to be said,
"Pilots are pathetic *****."
And I'm a pilot. Good ridance pathetic pricks. Yuck.

[wanabee777]

I'll take that as a compliment.:)

Toodles...

[Eastwest Loco]

I do recall an incident ex ADL where 5000kgs of through cargo ex SYD to PER was reported as 500kg and a 727-276 took far to much runway to get airborne and flew like a brick.

So much for "automated" load control.

It's only as good as the fully trained hands at the gate (small port mentality here) and the vigilance of the loco and bag snatchers.

Yep - I'm a dinosaur.

Best all

EWL

[westjet]

Problem is Eastwest Loco, these days in the race to the bottom, contract ground handlers have poorly trained, poorly paid, disinterested staff with big turnover, the turnover meaning limited build up of experienced stafg!

One port i know of has seen 2 Jetstar flights incorrectly loaded, due to inexperienced poorly trained ramp staff!

The Jetstar checkin and load control systems are designed with one thing in mind only..... To be as cheap to own and operate as possible!

Also as mentioned by a previous poster, how can the headcount be out by 16!

Self checkin means the airlines really have no idea who or what state their passengers are in who board their flights!

[neville_nobody]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these functions all outsourced to a Asian contractor at Jetstar?

If so Jetstar have no real control over it anyway and all can they do is keep changing contractors.

[megan]

And for info, there was one pax on my flight who I was totally unaware of and to this day, I still don't know who authorised her or why I was not informedThe system would seem to hiccup from time to time. Boarded a QF 747 in MEL bound for LAX via SYD some 15 to 20 years ago to find someone else had my allotted seat. We both had boarding passes specifying the same seat. A check of the manifest by the FA (first class should it make a difference) and no mention of me. Alternative seat found and all was well. Would the flight deck have been advised?

[training wheels]

I've had a similar problem before where the turbo-prop I flew rotated about 10 knots before Vr on the take-off roll. It turned out, since the flight was not full, that passengers took their own liberty to change from their allotted seats to sit closer to the exit at the back of the aircraft.

Maybe flight attendants should have a basic understanding of aircraft weight and balance so they can at least recognize a balance issue if the passengers moved seats before departure?

[Keg]

The system would seem to hiccup from time to time. Boarded a QF 747 in MEL bound for LAX via SYD some 15 to 20 years ago to find someone else had my allotted seat. We both had boarding passes specifying the same seat. A check of the manifest by the FA (first class should it make a difference) and no mention of me. Alternative seat found and all was well. Would the flight deck have been advised?

Possibly. It depends on whether there was going to be a delay.

However, the situation was resolved so the load system would have been updated and accurate.

[Eastwest Loco]

Dead right westjet

No commitment by the Company? No commitment from the staff. Airlines need the old heads. They did in my day and they do now, but that means employing humans. Humans cost money. Bugger - let's not!

Head count out by 16 is inexcusable. That shows a totally broken system of checks and balances. That aeroplane should never have rolled. The industry has more than started to scare me. As for self checkin there is no longer a crosscheck at all to see if the passenger booked as John Scrotumwarbler III is indeed Achmed bin Bombin. Security is now zero.

Training wheels

Totally agree.

When I left TN after they left North West Tassie and joined as Airports Manager (also bag chucker, loco and checkin dude) for East West the system they brought in was free boarding. We produced a sheet showing how many per zone we required but the F/As obviously knew better.

We had a nasty habit of actually checking where they were vs where we wanted them and on one occasion I pulled down the F/A seat inside the rear door, sat my arse down and put my feet up on the galley. Advised the girls that we go nowhere until you get this right. Gutsy for a then contracted agent but I stuck to my guns. I was signing the aeroplane out and wasn't budging. One of the girls got the skipper who came back and when told why I was being pedantic gave them both a roasting. Problem fixed, load corrected, aeroplane rolled.

That was unusual for East West but may have been caused by rapid expansion at the time.

We have lost the culture obviously. Too many old heads gone. Too few people actually interfacing with SLF and no commitment to an airline when you actually work for Grace L Ferguson Airline Handling and Septic Tank Cleaning Pty Ltd.

Quel domage

Best all

EWL

[V-Jet]

At least they HAD W&B issues - unlike Red Q, Jetstar Hong Kong etc etc etc... Can't help being facetious.

[UTW]

Hear hear, Ron (EWL)!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep UTW

Sometimes the old science is best.

It doesn't lose anything as there is no translation.

Now if you mention AIRIMP or SIPP codes (which they all use through click on boxes) you hit a glass mountain.

I realise there is no fix as things have gone too far.

Bloody idiots!

Best regards

EWL

[Ken Borough]

A significant problem with the way of the modern world is that people are box tickers without having any understanding of 'why so'. Knowledge today is so superficial, and that applies to those who are supposed to be imparting knowledge as well as the recipients thereof. Most can say 'yes' or 'no' but they simply don't know 'how' or 'why'. If more critical though was applied in the workplace, most ***k-ups would never happen.

[Propstop]

For once Ken I can agree with you. I see this with some of the newly trained.
EWL you are spot on the money!

[PoppaJo]

Latest rumour around the place is that Jayne is leaving to join Woolworths or possibly BIGW.

[LeeJoyce]

well she came from there so she can go back

no one will notice

and at least the replacement may use their real name and one we can pronounce...

[Roller Merlin]

I would not be surprised to see managers jumping ship. With the FRMS rules threatening to reduce their margins they will jump from the crest of the wave.

[mppgf]

Still waiting PoppaJo,
5 incidents. You can use your hand to count off your 5 fingers. Thats if your not busy using it for something else.:zzz:

[underfire]

I was always wondering why the WOW sensor could not be made to provide the actual WOW...

Seems like a very simple solution to the issue...

[PoppaJo]

mppgf Still waiting PoppaJo,
5 incidents. You can use your hand to count off your 5 fingers. Thats if your not busy using it for something else.

You seem very defensive of your employer judging off your previous posts.

Last month one of your A320s rotated full aft sidestick due to poor seat allocation of pax.
Last month an A320 left with 16 more pax than on the manifest.
July of last year an A320 departed with incorrect takeoff configuration. Happend again into coolangatta in the same year.
Alpha Floor was activated twice in 2014, Auckland and above Mildura.

A similar pattern of events occurred at Tiger. That was put to a stop basically overnight.

Plus you have the obvious internal problem with the safety culture of the carrier where these issues usually originate.

[ANCDU]

PappaJo it's sounds like the safety culture there isn't that bad seeing as these things are being reported, it's when incidents like this aren't reported and things are quiet that safety culture should begin to be questioned

I personally think this happens more than is actually reported,I just heard another carrier last week being asked by ground to check seat occupancy on behalf of their company...then a return to the bay. I blame the new automated check in and boarding procedures, and don't get me started on the security side of things.

I must admit this was a big mistake by J*( 15 pax!), would a swap from and A320 to an A321 cause this issue (or vice versa)?. Having been on one of their A321's and asked to moved seats before the doors where closed to " keep the aircraft within balance limits" I am sure the pilots are just working off the information they are given, not intentially operating out of limits.

[Ollie Onion]

Neville, you are wrong. All Airbus load calcs are completed by the flight crew from information spat out from the gate scanners. If something goes wrong with those scanners then it is the old rubbish in rubbish out scenario.

Let's not forget that Tiger were grounded as their safety system wasn't addressing the incidents NOT because of the incidents themselves. As said above the safety culture at Jetstar seems to be quite good since the crews are self reporting these things and the ATSB are getting notified at a very early stage.

[underfire]

I am currently flying from MEL to OOL on a freq basis, all on Tiger.

I would have to say that the crew appears to be hyper-vigilant on loading, I have noticed on several occasions where the crew have asked for tickets, either due to a male-female passenger difference or empty/full seating, at one point even calling out a pax name to locate, who had sat in a different seat.
Due to loading or perhaps revenue, carryon baggage weights are very, very strictly enforced, as is checked baggage.

I have noticed that on gate, DEP pax are not directed to front/back, so most tend to flock and wait at the front, which so far, tends to stop imbalance issues on loading.

I have only noticed one issue, on RW16 ARR, the ac came in real fast, and missed the high speed exit and had to go the long way, not certain if that caused a GA upstream...

Flying the same route, the Jetstar ac have been of a 2000 vintage, (one even had the signage in German and English, so you know where that came from) while the Tiger ac has been either a 2003 or a 2013 vintage...

[CurtainTwitcher]

I have only noticed one issue, on RW16 ARR, the ac came in real fast, and missed the high speed exit and had to go the long way, not certain if that caused a GA upstream...The RWY16 high speed exit Gulf has been NOTAMed out of service from time to time recently, so the crew may have actually deliberately kept their speed up on the runway. In doing so, minimised runway occupancy times, and thus reduced the potential of a GA.

[wanabee777]

Regulatory agencies, worldwide, have been remiss in establishing load auditing procedures in order to insure aircraft weight and balance calculations are correct.

Department of Transportation inspectors, using portable scales, conduct random tests on tractor/trailers.

Couldn't the same inspection techniques be applied to aircraft for gross weight and C/G analysis?

[Wunwing]

wanabee.

Clearly you have never been involved or have seen a large aircraft being weighed? I'm not sure that the pax would take kindly to being forced to stay on board for the extended process or that the pax that are delayed by it for the rest of the aircraft day would be too impressed either.

Wunwing

[ANCDU]

Flying the same route, the Jetstar ac have been of a 2000 vintage, (one even had the signage in German and English, so you know where that came from) while the Tiger ac has been either a 2003 or a 2013 vintage...

A bit off topic (apologies) but it got me wondering about the current fleet ages of the big 4 in Australia. Just comparing fleet ages of like types. I know other types are used domestically too, just a basis for comparison.

QANTAS. 737 NG. (69 Aircraft).......7.8 year.
Virgin Australia 737 NG (77 Aircraft).......6.1 years.
TigerAir. A320 (15 Aircraft).......6.0 years.
Jetstar. A320. (53 Aircraft).......6.1 years.

I did notice that in addition Jetstar has 6 x A321 at an average fleet age of 9.4 years!!! They must be using them a lot into OOL! Looks like Tiger has the youngest fleet in Australia.....just.

Apologies for the thread drift!

[underfire]

The RWY16 high speed exit Gulf has been NOTAMed out of service from time to time recently, so the crew may have actually deliberately kept their speed up on the runway. In doing so, minimised runway occupancy times, and thus reduced the potential of a GA.

Understood, but no, the ac braked very, very hard to try to make it....(to the point where a pair of eye glasses flew forward)

It was a mistake..

on ages, one Tiger ac was a 2015 A320 w/sharklets...

[wheels_down]

You would need to float quite a bit to miss GOLF. It is easier for Jetstar to go through to JULIET as they are on the far side of T4, plus you can be waiting at ALPHA intersection for a bit due traffic.

Probaly a new FO or never landed at Melboune. 16 will catch you out as it slopes down and some tend to float for a bit.

[Bula]

Are we seriously entertaining this was a mistake.

Underfire, It is not a mistake to take a perfectly serviceable taxiway.

So what MEL's were on the aircraft? Was the airport approach aid serviceable? What are the companies SOP's in that case? What weight was the aircraft? What was the outside environment and wind conditions.

Bloody lounge chair you know whats.

Far out... Now back to the topic.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

PappaJo it's sounds like the safety culture there isn't that bad seeing as these things are being reported, it's when incidents like this aren't reported and things are quiet that safety culture should begin to be questioned

Don't forget J* used to have a culture of not reporting - the YMML TOGA-Tap incident from about 4-5 years ago was one of a string not reported until much later than the rules require.

[mppgf]

Poppajo,

Thats four. The first two incidents were the "apart from these two" that was previously under discussion. Also they occurred in October not November.
For someone who's lost count you don't seem to have much information to back that up. If It seems like I'm being defensive it's only because people like you make grand sweeping statements that have no real basis in fact.
Stating you have lost count of all the incidents Jetstar has had in the last 24 months is definately a sweeping statement.
Finally,

"Plus you have the obvious internal problem with the safety culture of the carrier where these issues usually originate"

Thats another grand sweeping statement and what the F@ck does that even mean ? :ugh:

[wanabee777]

Regulatory agencies, worldwide, have been remiss in establishing load auditing procedures in order to insure aircraft weight and balance calculations are correct.

Department of Transportation inspectors, using portable scales, conduct random tests on tractor/trailers.

Couldn't the same inspection techniques be applied to aircraft for gross weight and C/G analysis?

wanabee.

Clearly you have never been involved or have seen a large aircraft being weighed? I'm not sure that the pax would take kindly to being forced to stay on board for the extended process or that the pax that are delayed by it for the rest of the aircraft day would be too impressed either.

Wunwing

No, I've never seen a weight and balance check being conducted on any aircraft, let alone a large one. From your remark, I assume it must be a long and drawn out process.

As an alternative, how about this suggestion?

On a random basis, authorities conduct a load audit after the aircraft blocks in at destination.

I'm not saying weighing the aircraft with scales would be necessary. Simply conduct a passenger count during deplaning along with a cargo weight check for each bin. The results would be compared to the airline's AWABS paperwork for that flight.



Is that reasonable?

[Lookleft]

Is that reasonable?

No, because if there is a problem at the start of the flight why would taking it into the air and finding it at the end of the flight be any safer? The whole issue of loading problems started when they took away the head count requirement to help OTP. Now they have bought the headcount back. OTP is someone elses performance indicator, its definitely not mine.

Don't forget J* used to have a culture of not reporting - the YMML TOGA-Tap incident from about 4-5 years ago was one of a string not reported until much later than the rules require.

How wrong do you want to be in one statement? The incident was reported at the time it occurred. It was the subsequent discovery of the GPWS warning off FOQA that wasn't passed on and neither was there a requirement to provide additional information. The incident is now 8 years ago as it occurred in 2007. What were the other incidents that went unreported? If they went unreported how do you know they occurred?

[wanabee777]

Quote:
Is that reasonable?
No, because if there is a problem at the start of the flight why would taking it into the air and finding it at the end of the flight be any safer?

Better to validate the weight data record at block in v.s. doing it through the process of an accident investigation.

As it is now, airline load planning personnel and associated AWABS programs have little, if any, independent official oversight that I'm aware of.

If nothing else, trend analysis would be beneficial in determining if an individual airline's load planning procedures are performing in accordance with accepted standards.

JMHO

[Cavalry Charge]

For all the Arm Chair Professionals,

It takes A LOT to put an A320 aircraft out of the envelope. You can put the THS in an A320 at the opposite end of the scale and its still flyable. 16 pax spread out (most likely) evenly isn't going to cause any drama and lets face it, its very unlikely they were all in the back rows. Just FYI.

Also, these loading issues are common occurrences. Virgin had an incident a few years ago where a 737 departed Bali with 1600kg of weight (bags) unaccounted for. A similar time to one of their A330 departing Perth with 1300kg of cargo not even manifested (which in my opinion is more dangerous and I'm not referring to weight issues). The ATSB website has many similar events with all airlines, not just Jetstar.
I do agree with the guys point of view in regards to cheap systems but what are other carriers using that Jetstar aren't? Or is it that these occurrences just go unnoticed?

Jetstar pilots do their own weight and balance calculations on an iPad program but they only feed in the data that is handed to them by the ground crews.
I have heard that Qantas and Virgin pilots have this done for them but I'm not sure if this is the case, just what I heard. Maybe an insider can confirm this (and a REAL insider, not an arm chair troller). But if it is true, maybe this may be where a problem could lie. Just a thought.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-110.aspx

[Cavalry Charge]

[QUOTE=underfire;9206927]Understood, but no, the ac braked very, very hard to try to make it....(to the point where a pair of eye glasses flew forward)

It was a mistake..

I would bet my nut on that Golf was NOTAMed out so there was a chance they were trying for Echo but didn't achieve it so that rolled thru to Juliet.

Not a mistake..