C210 crashed at Catalina today

[piperboy84]

Was landing at Catalina today 4 people in a Centurian landing behind me overshot and went over the edge down about 150 feet, airport closed for a few hours , amazingly all survived. I was watching him land, he appeared high and hot, I ran to the end of the runway and seen the wreckage down the drop, to my utter amazement all 4 occupants had got out and where standing in a circle holding hands and praying.

Pics and vid to follow as soon as I figure out how to upload/post (obviously no pics of the folks will be posted)

[India Four Two]

Here's a picture of Catalina that I posted some time ago. It's a DC-3 sized runway. Any SEP should have no problem:
http://siliconvalleyaircharter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/airport.jpg

An overrun at either end is potentially fatal. The 210 occupantants were very lucky.

[piperboy84]

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!2370&authkey=!AN9hXLqrXQ4-zYw&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

That's it at the end off 22, there was about a 6knot tail wind which is counteracted by the first half of 22 being up hill, however the Centurian did not benefit from it as he landed 2/3 the way down on essentially the flat part

[piperboy84]

Another pic a bit clearer

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!2372&authkey=!AN9hXLqrXQ4-zYw&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

[piperboy84]

This was my approach, behind me is a 172 SP on the downwind and the Centurian announces joining about 45 seconds into the vid, note the wind sock

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!2375&authkey=!AN9hXLqrXQ4-zYw&ithint=video%2cMOV

[treadigraph]

Cor, they were very lucky indeed.

A PPL friend and I flew there with another friend and an instructor from the San Diego FBO we rented from - the instructor was a condition of the rental! I seem to recall him pointing out skid marks about half way along the runway as the uphill portion of 22 crests the rise!

DC-3 and a Bushmaster 2000 (1960s update of the Ford Trimotor) followed us in a few minutes later.

[9 lives]

Judging by where the 210 is, down the embankment, I think that happily, the pilot had it mostly slowed by the end of the runway, and rolled down the embankment much more weight on wheels than on the wings. Though a worrying ride, this was a much better outcome than the aircraft literally flying off the end of the runway, and crashing from flying speed further along.

Good job restricting the severity of the accident to bent metal, and not injured people....

[RadioSaigon]

Good job restricting the severity of the accident...

Sorry, can't agree with that. There's nothing "good job" about this. 6kts tailwind on an up-slope, ok. Landing 2/3 of the way in??? Failing to recognise the potential early and acting appropriately (go-around)??? Yeah, nah. No banana.

Sure looks like a scenic place to fly tho.

[India Four Two]

I've flown in there in a Cirrus. Nothing difficult about it. You just have to be cautious and aware of the conditions.

If there is a strong wind from the west, you want to to aware of potential curl-over before the threshold and make your aiming point a bit further down the runway, but you should still be able to land on the uphill portion and turn off at the first taxiway, as pb84 did. 👍

[9 lives]

There's nothing "good job" about this.

Well.... I sure agree that the original landing was obviously a botch up. But after the bad landing, you get another chance, make it a not so bad accident, or a really bad accident. Whether by skill or luck, the pilot made this into a not son bad accident, where "really bad accident" was easily available as the wrong choice!

[Bare Plane]

Used to fly my Musketeer there for Buffalo burgers on a Sunday. 30 years ago.
I was the Maintenance Mgr. for an FBO on CRQ. Gave my card to the folks at the facilities on Catalina. As I rember it was only the restaurant. Anyway, told them to call if they needed any maintenance help. We were a 24/7 operation with a flight school. We would get a call. Ask the caller for make and model of his A/C and his credit card number. Pack tires, tools and technician into a small twin with a school FI and fly over to save his day. Nice job for the tech, a nice flight for the FI and good money for the repair. And the customer was grateful. I remember a C-421 and a Duke with scraped off tires. Were a couple of others.

[piperboy84]

I think the problem is twofold, although there is nothing really difficult or dangerous about the field, I think it is "visibly intimidating " and this leads pilots to stray from flying the numbers as they would at any other field. Secondly, a large majority of the fields visitors are recreational pilots who for the most part fly there spamcans round SoCal in a radar environment and between towered fields with a lot of hand holding, I think the added stress of see and avoid in busy uncontrolled airspace along side the reputation of Catalina being a "difficult " field causes people to do crazy stuff. Overthinking it if you will.

[wanabee777]

you want to to aware of potential curl-over before the threshold

Could you elaborate on this phenomenon a little more?

At FLL we have a runway (10R/28L) which ends with a shear 55 ft wall drop off at the east end.

Should the same precautions be used when flying an approach to FLL runway 28L during strong/gusty westerly winds??

As an aside, Runway 28L at FLL has a -1.1% gradient in the first 4000 ft.

[India Four Two]

w777,

From an overrun point of view, that is plain scary:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Screen%20Shot%202015-12-01%20at%2010.55.46%20_zpshermyraz.png


In terms of approaching 28L, it's like flying over the lee side of a bullding.

Any time that you have lower terrain before the threshold and you have reasonably strong winds, you can anticipate turbulence and sink.

The strength of the turbulence and sink will depend upon the height of the runway above the terrain, the terrain slope and the strength of the wind.

Since there is a displaced threshold on 28L, I think crossing that "cliff" at 200' or above would minimize any problems, but still be prepared for some sink.

Have a look in any good gliding textbook for descriptions of flying at ridge-soaring sites for more information.

Incidentally, if you are approaching in a cross-wind, look out for hangars or other airport bulidings that are upwind. They can cause significant turbulence and sink.

[9 lives]

Any runway with a steep cliff close to the threshold presents the risk of downward moving air just off the threshold during times of strong winds. Like getting caught in wake turbulence, you can find yourself fighting to outclimb the downward moving air - bad, if the threshold of the runway is now above you, with a cliff face right in front.

It is important things like this which might be being overlooked during PPL training. Pilots become responsible to themselves and their passengers for gleaning this type of critical information post PPL, before they really need it!

[RatherBeFlying]

Holland Landing has similar dropoffs at each end and is a thousand feet shorter. Landing 08 you want to touch down in the first couple hundred feet which is level. The descent rate of the remaining runway may be comparable to the descent rate of the aircraft if a little fast :uhoh:

A steep approach to 26 keeps you above the curl over. Departing 26 the terrain climbs after crossing Hwy 11.

If you are planning a long flight to a short runway, the full gross approach speed will give you a long float. Yes, I once touched 2/3 the way down a 3700' runway in a Tiger :\

[wanabee777]

I42,

Technically, FLL runway 10R/28L does not have a published displaced threshold but does have a 600 ft EMAS bed on each end so, for all intents and purposes, I suppose you could call it a "displaced threshold". Runway 10L/28R does have a published displaced threshold as well as EMAS at both ends but is level for the full length.

By my calculations, if established on the published 3 degree glide path for runway 28L, you would cross the parapet of the wall at approximately 85 ft. (tan 3° x 1600 ft)

The new south runway at FLL has been open since Sept 2014 and I have not yet heard of any turbulence problems from pilots but that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. I have heard some pilots comment that their flare picture is a bit different since the touchdown zone is on a 1 percent down gradient. (Some say they tend to float a little more)

Landing on Runway 26L in ATL (rare), you can plan on some turbulence if the winds are strong out of the south. This is due to the close proximity of Delta's maintenance hangars to the touchdown zone of the runway.

Thanks for the info on turbulence caused from winds over a shear drop off. Kind of like water over a dam.:)

[India Four Two]

w777,

Yes, I see now it is not a displaced threshold - I wasn't paying attention to the markings on Google Earth!

I agree with you - on a 3° glidepath, you would be 85' over the wall - definitely a chance of turbulence and sink in a strong wind.

I pay particular attention to these issues, having spent many hours in gliders, where unanticipated sink on final can ruin your whole day. In really strong winds, we fly faster and higher and NEVER fly downwind of the threshold. On base, we track at a right-angle to the threshold or upwind of it.

PS I've found a nice write-up in section 9.11 of this paper: http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/groundschool/umodule21.html

[wanabee777]

I42,

I guess that's why the U.S. Air Force Academy starts their cadets off in gliders. (worked quite well for the German's)

I wish I had had some glider experience before transitioning to powered aircraft. I think it would make us all better pilots.:ok:

Thanks for the link.

[9 lives]

I wish I had had some glider experience before transitioning to powered aircraft.

All power planes are adequate for gliding experience with the throttle(s) closed! That's the way I teach landings, 'works great! Once you master a good glide approach, you can use a little power if you need to!

Yesterday it was full forward slips down final and to the flare in the Cub for my charge, she did really well. I can't think of the last time we carried power down final at all.....

[wanabee777]

After 40 or so hours of glider(uh...I mean sailplane) training, including acrobatics, the next phase would be J-3 school.

That is, if I were King.;)

http://www.academyadmissions.com/the-experience/military/airmanship/

[India Four Two]

W777,

I would recommend a few hours in any taildragger anyway - probably a Supercub or Citabria, so that you sit in the front. You will learn a lot.

Also try to take at least one flight in a glider and with the instructor's approval, try a turn without using the rudder - you will learn all about adverse yaw. 😉

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When I learned to fly we had a real problem finding a nose wheel trainer, in fact the school I went to only had one in a fleet of ten airplanes.

Then after I got my PPL Cessna put a nose wheel on the Cessna 170 and called it the " Landomatic " and flying skill teaching has gone down hill ever since. :{