Answer yes or no to the RAF bombing Syria this coming week.

[Biggus]

downsizer,

WSO about to re-open to DE recruitment

Is this correct? Is this mainly for the Tornado fleet, or does it include P-8/ISTAR?

If it's for Tornado:

Recruitment from high street/OASC assessment? Minimum 2-3 months.
IOT - 32 weeks
WSO training? Minimum of say 6-12 months.
Tornado OCU - 6 months

Total time to provide an inexperienced WSO on the front line? 24 months? Start January 2016, earliest output say January 2018.


GR4 OSD 2019?

How does that work?




Then there's the issue of career prospects after 2019, leading to possible difficulties recruiting in the first place!

[Pontius Navigator]

Bring back short service commissions?

[downsizer]

downsizer,

WSO about to re-open to DE recruitment

Is this correct? Is this mainly for the Tornado fleet, or does it include P-8/ISTAR?

If it's for Tornado:

Recruitment from high street/OASC assessment? Minimum 2-3 months.
IOT - 32 weeks
WSO training? Minimum of say 6-12 months.
Tornado OCU - 6 months

Total time to provide an inexperienced WSO on the front line? 24 months? Start January 2016, earliest output say January 2018.


GR4 OSD 2019?

How does that work?




Then there's the issue of career prospects after 2019, leading to possible difficulties recruiting in the first place!

It's definitely happening. My understanding is it is more to do with P8 and ISTAR than just GR4.

[Biggus]

PN,

Short service commissions have been back for quite some time I believe, indeed I think that was the only entry route for WSOs towards the end. While that approach may answer what you do with new WSOs post 2019, it doesn't address them reaching the frontline quickly enough to be of use in helping the current strain on the Tornado fleet.

One also has to ask why anyone with half a brain (one presumes even pilots credit WSOs with half a brain?) would volunteer to join a trade that the RAF has already shut down once? :=

[Pontius Navigator]

High is quite agree. They were questioning the future of the navigation branch 25 years ago.

Although the redundant WSO on retirement of the relevant airframe could then fill the SO slots that real pilots don't want. :)

[downsizer]

One also has to ask why anyone with half a brain (one presumes even pilots credit WSOs with half a brain?) would volunteer to join a trade that the RAF has already shut down once? :=

Because they won't realise that, these kids just want to get in the air, to quote someone senior! And since when does the RAF do joined up thinking?

[camelspyyder]

The future for WSOs is ISTAR.

SDSR10 projected RJ and Sentry as the only future core assets. Now we have both of those for at least 20 more years. Sentinel is being retained. Shadow fleet increasing by 60%. About 100 more RPAS crews are needed, plus 24 P8 crews - that's 48 WSO's on that one alone.

I'd say recruiting now is essential, but starting up a training pipeline is going to be difficult.

[glad rag]

I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head 're j u st what Typhoon brings to the party..

[Onceapilot]

glad rag
"I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head 're j u st what Typhoon brings to the party.."

Just an airframe that can (maybe) lug the weapons, that has more years left in service. Is it cost - effective??????

OAP

[Flugplatz]

It's a shame that the ROE thread has gone, although predictable.

It seems that ROE are the British Government's dirty little secret, although not much of a secret since they are saying that no civilian casualties have been caused thus far in the Iraq/Syria air strikes. Ergo we only drop when there are definitely no civpop in the vicinity. Not exactly rocket science for ISIL.

But how well does this strategy really serve us and the subjugated of Raqua? Pretty well tells ISIL that they are safe in a populated urban environment as long as they ensure some civilians are within a typical blast radius. What about the situation where ISIL are about to enter and occupy a town and could be hit, but there are a few (10 or so) non-combatents in the close vicinity. The RAF can't drop a bomb/missile and so ISIL go on and enter the town and proceed to round up 100 civilians for execution. Who is well served in that situation? certainly not the denizens of the town that has just been taken. And because we are not really being effective, hey presto the, the whole thing just goes on and on and people begin to wonder if these expensive planes and missiles are worth anything? Then they start calling for ground troops and air power gets generally dismissed as not being a decisive option.

I also question why some PPRUNERs are so sensitive over 'OPSEC'? The outlines of the ROE are pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain. I am sure no serving military would ever post the exact nature of the ROE on this forum, so why can't we speculate and admit the obvious? It is this shutting down of all other (informed or not) opinion that led us into the whole Iraqi WMD / years in Afghan.

Flug

[BEagle]

In a word, Flugplatz:

BOLLEAUX!!

[Wokkafans]

Looks like a "Londoner" isn't too impressed with the Syrian intervention - he attacks passengers at Leytonstone tube with a machete shouting "This is for Syria."

Sadly I expect this will not be the last attack of this type.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/673255748579627008

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12035552/Knifeman-screams-this-is-for-Syria-in-London-tube-machete-attack.html

[Pontius Navigator]

Flug, I can make a statement and it could be used and quoted based on my perceived credibility (not my pprune persona). My brother in law could make the same statement but lacks any credibility. There in lies the difference.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Flugplatz
I presume that you didn't proceed with joining up as a fighter controller?

[glad rag]

glad rag
"I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head 're j u st what Typhoon brings to the party.."

Just an airframe that can (maybe) lug the weapons, that has more years left in service. Is it cost - effective??????

OAP

You are singularly failing to look outside that box.

[Courtney Mil]

It's a shame that the ROE thread has gone, although predictable.

It seems that ROE are the British Government's dirty little secret, although not much of a secret since they are saying that no civilian casualties have been caused thus far in the Iraq/Syria air strikes. Ergo we only drop when there are definitely no civpop in the vicinity. Not exactly rocket science for ISIL.

The ROE thread is gone because we advised that it was an inappropriate subject for open source discussion. Your naive analysis of national ROE is charming and absolutely spot-on in every detail. DAESH please take note of the British Government's dirty little secret.

I also question why some PPRUNERs are so sensitive over 'OPSEC'? The outlines of the ROE are pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain. I am sure no serving military would ever post the exact nature of the ROE on this forum, so why can't we speculate and admit the obvious? It is this shutting down of all other (informed or not) opinion that led us into the whole Iraqi WMD / years in Afghan.

If only you had half a brain or were better informed. ROE is not the same as policy and there is no such thing as over-sensitivity to OPSEC.

[Flugplatz]

PN: I take your point and completely understand that justifiable apprehension.

I do feel that whatever ROE the RAF are operating under, that they are realistic enough to make the sort of difference that our MPs in the recent debate voted for (most of them). I do have my doubts though, particularly near populated areas.

No FC for me!
My own bitter experience with ROE came through the Bosnia conflict. Europe now remembers the tragedy at the supposedly UN-protected 'safe area' of Srebrenica - but at the time, many civilians of my aquaintance believed that the UN forces were there to stop the bloodshed. It was not until I got into Theatre that it became truly apparent how limited the scope of action was, compared to the public misconception. I just hope we are not going along with a similar policy whilst holding out false hope to the poor beggars in places like Raqua. That, I think, would meet Beagle's definition of BOLLEAUX!! (maybe some of those 'mercenaries' you keep talking about might get involved later on, eh Beags?)

I hope you can excuse my tone of cynicism; but something about this smells a bit 'off'.

Flug

Flug

[JointShiteFighter]

I also question why some PPRUNERs are so sensitive over 'OPSEC'?

A relaxed attitude to OPSEC gets people killed. A lot of the members here are also former or serving military personnel. Surely it's not difficult to figure out?

[Chugalug2]

OP, we've answered your question re Yes or No, and now the country is at war (I concede that it could be said to have been so previously, but this is going to turn into something of far greater magnitude I suspect). The time for speculative armchair strategy is past, and it is now time to declare our support for our Armed Forces presently engaged, or to be engaged in the future.

I agree with others that discussion re ROE, tactics, targets, weaponry, etc, here is inappropriate. What the MOD chooses to reveal we cannot control, but what is posted here can be. If you think that this thread has answered the question set by the opening post and is now moving into dubious pastures you have the unique ability to delete your post and the entire thread.

Your call, and one that I would not suggest in normal circumstances, but the ayes have it, the ayes have it, and it is done. Just a thought...

[Courtney Mil]

Flugplatz, don't confuse ROE with Policy. I was there too in Bosnia and I can tell you from first hand experience that the people that constructed our ROE were not the people that dreamed up the policy.

Banging the wrong drum, although I do take your point.

[Onceapilot]

Quote glad rag, "You are singularly failing to look outside that box."

Well there we differ old fruit. Tornado still trumps Typhoon at this job and, anyone who might suggest the carriage of AIM 120 is important here misunderstands the situation. Also, the direct comparison with Bucc/Tonka in '91 is wrong. That situation was due to an appaling concept of Ops in the late 80's that led to a deficiency in target designating. The problem here is a physical shortage of Tonkas and their crews. Cheers

OAP

[Eclectic]

Typhoon and aging Tornado warplanes paired to avoid what British journalist Andrew Gilligan described as "accidental clashes with Russia".

Read more: UK Plans to Pair Typhoons, Tornados to 'Avoid Clashes' With Russia (http://sputniknews.com/military/20151206/1031317861/great-britain-aircraft-isis-airstrikes.html#ixzz3tXORYyud)

[Onceapilot]

Well Eclectic, just shows you what bolleux passes for informed comment. What are the "self protection" circumstances that could possibly warrant retaliation with AIM120, or any other weapon, between coalition air? The Turks have fallen into that pit. IMO, air to air weapons are just a liability in the present circumstances, a waste of DI and load.

OAP

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

In my time;

HQ NEAF Episkopi

HQ AFME Steamer Point

HQ FEAF Changi

Aaron.

[glad rag]

Well Eclectic, just shows you what bolleux passes for informed comment. What are the "self protection" circumstances that could possibly warrant retaliation with AIM120, or any other weapon, between coalition air? The Turks have fallen into that pit. IMO, air to air weapons are just a liability in the present circumstances, a waste of DI and load.

OAP

Thank heavens you are "onceapilot"!!

[Simplythebeast]

Whats all this 'Ageing Tornado' rubbish?
Tornado's first flight was 41 yrs ago.

B52........63 yrs since first flight
F15........43 yrs since first flight
F16........41 yrs since first flight
A10........43 yrs since first flight
Sentry.....43 yrs since first flight
KC135.....59 yrs since first flight

All still serving with distinction.

[Pontius Navigator]

Does the Typhoon carry the missiles for weight and balance?

[Eclectic]

IMHO the UK has fallen into a trap.
ISIS want us to bomb them. We can do no real harm but we hand them a huge global propaganda victory.
They want worldwide Muslim opinion polarised against the West, and they are succeeding. As we saw in Soussse, San Bernadino and Leytonstone. Expect these events on a regular basis. The more we attack ISIS the more these atrocities will happen.

We are heading towards 300,000 dead in Syria, mostly Sunni civilians, mostly killed by Assad's barrel bombs. This is the real problem. This is what causes the migrant hordes. And we are doing nothing about it. If the RAF were to destroy all Assad's helicopters on the ground one night it would be a great event for humanity.

Globally the real problem is Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism and the Muslim World League. Already identified by the EU as the main sponsors and financiers of global terrorism. Islamic State is just Saudi Arabia Mk2 and has received massive Saudi finance. Yet we supply Saudi with advanced weapons which they use to murder thousands of Yemeni civilians and we fly the Union Jack at half mast over Buckingham Palace and the Houses of Parliament when the Saudi king dies.

[Onceapilot]

Well done glad rag!:D Underlining the caveat on my post and being abusive to me shows something!:=
There is NOT going to be an inter-coalition dust-up out there. The TURKS will have been given an internal red card and all other NATO players will be on an air to air self-defence weapons hold (or very similar).
Now, pray tell your opinion?:rolleyes:

OAP

[Onceapilot]

Quote Pontious, "Does the Typhoon carry the missiles for weight and balance?" No, otherwise it could no use them- you know that!;)

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, that might seem obvious but not necessarily true. I can't remember the F4 but think there was some issue with AIM7.

Winchester isn't the issue but balance might be for carriage of other stores.

[Onceapilot]

TBH Pontious, I am not privvy to the Typhoon RTS. But nowadays (;)) incompatible stores fits are not de rigueur.:)


OAP

[Hangarshuffle]

The votes done, the bombings started, this thread is history. Look how its decaying..Please, put it down, its sad now. Take it to Threadnitas...strap it to Brimstone and fire it at a Technical, just stop it.

[Above The Clouds]

Hangarshuffle

As you are the OP you can delete the whole thread if it no longer suits your purpose.

[Flugplatz]

Courtney Mil. Thank you, I think on reflection you are right. The ROE flow from the policy. Pity the policy sometimes seems to be built around the PR campaign and a wish to make warfare seem a pick-and-choose technological game. I really hope we have learnt something and if Chilcott had got off his backside, the recent MPs' debate might have used his report to be better informed.

I still truly hope the RAF are getting the right policy and suitable ROE, otherwise we have pretty much sent them on a fool's errand. The public now have a perception that airpower can make a difference (if not actually decisive). This time next year I think people are going to want to see a quantifiable difference made by all of the bombing. The fact that we seem to be going for the oil wells gives me some confidence that we're not just stuck on first base.

I was serving during the Blair/Hoon years, and now I tend to have very sensitive skin and an over-developed 'bulls..t detector' when it comes to the claims of politicians and some of our senior officers.

Flug

[Just This Once...]

OAP, that might seem obvious but not necessarily true. I can't remember the F4 but think there was some issue with AIM7.

Winchester isn't the issue but balance might be for carriage of other stores.

No particular issue with weight and balance at any fuselage station, nor are they required to help offset wing stores. The forward right is rather close to the gun vibration / acoustics, which is pretty much the only consideration if you don't need a full missile fit.

If a missile is fitted it can only be for defence.

[Courtney Mil]

Courtney Mil. Thank you, I think on reflection you are right. The ROE flow from the policy. Pity the policy sometimes seems to be built around the PR campaign and a wish to make warfare seem a pick-and-choose technological game. I really hope we have learnt something and if Chilcott had got off his backside, the recent MPs' debate might have used his report to be better informed.

No, Sir. ROE is not PR. Not in the slightest way. If you think that politicians use their influence to shape ROE then I could almost understand that - although that is not the case.

I have just deleted my explanation because nothing about this is appropriate here.

If you are here to do harm or you think that your opinion is more imoportant than the safety of those doing their duty, then take it up elsewhere.

[racedo]

Reports on Newswires about US bombing an SAA position just before ISIS launch an attack.

Apparently position has always been in Syrian hands so difficult to claim confusion about who in control.

Is someone looking to start WW3 ?

[Thelma Viaduct]

Makes sense, Turkey are on ISIS's side.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html

[TEEEJ]

Racedo wrote

Reports on Newswires about US bombing an SAA position just before ISIS launch an attack.

The US has said that the Coalition did not carry out the strike. News just breaking on Sky News that the US believes that it was a strike/accident by the Russian Air Force.

How will this be spun? If it was a Russian strike will they own up to it or will we see a bit of propaganda spin? The Syrians are already firmly blaming the Coalition so will we now be seeing staged footage with the remains of US munitions at the site?

[GlobalNav]

"Makes sense, Turkey are on ISIS's side."

Repeat a lie often enough, someone might believe it.

If any country has a stake in the defeat of ISIS, it's Turkey and any suggestion that Turkey is pro-ISIS is total and absolute baloney, and likely has its source in the kitchen of dear Valdimir the terrible.

[glad rag]

Well done glad rag!:D Underlining the caveat on my post and being abusive to me shows something!:=
There is NOT going to be an inter-coalition dust-up out there. The TURKS will have been given an internal red card and all other NATO players will be on an air to air self-defence weapons hold (or very similar).
Now, pray tell your opinion?:rolleyes:

OAP

Well you have certainly had time to re align your thoughts; anyone who says we send our aircrew into that cauldron...without the means to deter and defend themselves ...

http://bottlebrusharts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/clown1.jpg


took long enough for the anvil to arrive...

[glad rag]

"Makes sense, Turkey are on ISIS's side."

Repeat a lie often enough, someone might believe it.

If any country has a stake in the defeat of ISIS, it's Turkey and any suggestion that Turkey is pro-ISIS is total and absolute baloney, and likely has its source in the kitchen of dear Valdimir the terrible.

:hmm: So how do you look upon that most stalwarts of allies, Pakistan then?

[Onceapilot]

Thanks for your opinion glad rag:rolleyes:.....Unfortunately, it is worthless.

OAP

[racedo]

"Makes sense, Turkey are on ISIS's side."

Repeat a lie often enough, someone might believe it.

If any country has a stake in the defeat of ISIS, it's Turkey and any suggestion that Turkey is pro-ISIS is total and absolute baloney, and likely has its source in the kitchen of dear Valdimir the terrible.

Your own VP said it 14 months ago and unlikely he speaking that much out of tune.

Course he was forced to apologise for upsetting an Ally but didn't seem to be many on US side even those who dislike him who were claiming he was wrong.

[GlobalNav]

"Your own VP said it 14 months ago and unlikely he speaking that much out of tune."

Well my goodness, corrected by no less a source than Mr VP. He is an unimpeachable source, of course, just look at his political history. And from an administration with such a glowing sense of strategy and competence in the region. Practically the whole lot of the upper echelon should hang their heads in shame - particularly those in the White House and Foggy Bottom.

Just consider the wisdom of a regional government giving any thought of supporting ISIS - it would amount to abdication of its own sovereignty, a call to anarchy and chaos - anathema to all of Turkey's future international aspirations. And if there was any reason for Turkey to be a pro-ISIS player, why would they host coalition forces? Incredible.

[Flugplatz]

Okay CM, I promise not to comment on the present Syria/Iraq situation. In the coming months, I will await positive and meaningful results in defeating ISIL through airpower, because you are clearly of the conviction that our pilots have all the tools they need to do the job (including appropriate ROE).

If you think there is no link between PR and ROE then I believe that you are sadlly mistaken. Our policy is set by the politicians as to what they want to achieve and what they think will be reaction from the general public. I am not saying they are all cynical manipulators, but I think it is also true that very many of them can't seem to grasp the realities of warfare, conflict and thee proportionate use of force. Ergo, you get idiots like Jeremy Corbin saying he doesn't agree with the Police's "Shoot to kill policy" - a classic example of good, workable ROE - but the basic principle of which Mr Corbin clearly doesn't begin to understand.

So we have arrived at recent conflicts such as the Balkans, post-GW2 Iraq and Afghanistan with initial policies and strategies that are woefully inadequate but which are played up as effective, substantial and fully capable of resolving the situation. Referring back to the UN mission in Bosnia, what else but 'PR' or gross delusion can be the reason for declaring Srebrenica a 'safe area' when it was anything but? Similarly CAS was promised to deter hostile acts, but were the pilots able to be scrambled, arrive at the target and decide when and where to bomb? Only after passing up a chain of command leading to the senior UN representatives, by which time the action was often already over. Yet the public perception was maintained that our fighters were on-call and would be used effectively - not hamstrung into virtual uselessness.

We saw the same thing in Iraq with the 'Snatch' debacle. Only after severe casualties and increasingly bad PR were any changes made. There was quite a campaign about this in the UK (relatives turning up on TV etc) and it got results. Not sure that would have happened without the press taking up the cause.

As a parting shot, several of my friends from recent conflicts have commented that they would preferentially ask for US CAS since the Americans were percieved as having much less restrictive ROE and be much more likely to engage the target!

Flug

[racedo]

Just consider the wisdom of a regional government giving any thought of supporting ISIS - it would amount to abdication of its own sovereignty, a call to anarchy and chaos - anathema to all of Turkey's future international aspirations. And if there was any reason for Turkey to be a pro-ISIS player, why would they host coalition forces? Incredible.

You looking at this from a US perspective using rationality.
Turkey looking at this from what Erdogan wants and demands.

[Clockwork Mouse]

As a parting shot, several of my friends from recent conflicts have commented that they would preferentially ask for US CAS since the Americans were percieved as having much less restrictive ROE and be much more likely to engage the target!

But what target? Several of my friends from recent conflicts view their less restrictive ROE as the reason for so many blue on blue engagements.

[Easy Street]

You looking at this from a US perspective using rationality.
Turkey looking at this from what Erdogan wants and demands.

Good point, this. Rationality is a contested concept in politics and any other "science" involving human behaviour, and the West gives it too great a credence when it starts banging on about the 'rules-based international system' and other such things. Essentially, we use "rational" to describe parties whose thinking we understand, and "irrational" to describe those whose thinking we don't. As such, our use of "rational" or "irrational" says much more about our own knowledge and understanding of the world than it does about the other side's sanity.

[GlobalNav]

"Good point, this. Rationality is a contested concept in politics and any other "science" involving human behaviour, and the West gives it too great a credence"

I accept the point and I'm no particular fan of Mr Erdogan, one way or the other. But I expect that one does not reach the highest office of his country without some sense of self-preservation and political savvy. What possible motivation or lapse of judgment could account for supporting a chaotic and deadly upheaval of one's own country - a country which has long sought to establish a secular government? If nothing else it would amount to political, if not biological suicide.

[Easy Street]

What possible motivation or lapse of judgment could account for supporting a chaotic and deadly upheaval of one's own country - a country which has long sought to establish a secular government?

Deadly upheaval in parts of Turkey during the recent election held down turnout in areas that had previously voted heavily for the pro-Kurdish opposition party, and gave Erdogan the chance to show a tough attitude towards security. This swung the result far enough from the previous vote that his AKP could secure a working majority.

The legacy of secularism left by Ataturk is being steadily unpicked. Don't forget the AKP is an openly Islamist party, which means that it sees Islamic principles guiding and informing the administration of the state. Erdogan's big project is to get a sufficient majority to pass constitutional reforms that will turn the presidency from a European-style figurehead into a US-style executive, just another stop along his "bus ride" of democracy: "once I get to my stop, I'm getting off", as he allegedly once said to the King of Jordan. His even bigger project is the restoration of Turkey's role as a leading Sunni power in the Middle East, hence their involvement in funding Islamist rebels in Libya and Syria - Neo-Ottomanism, if you like.

[Lazer-Hound]

Warmongering? If only. The RAF doesn't have the firepower to do any real damage in Syria - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12041117/Warmongering-If-only.-The-RAF-doesnt-have-the-firepower-to-do-any-real-damage-in-Syria.html)

[Hangarshuffle]

Okay then keep the thread going...This article by AG is too late, but it doesn't matter because they knew the facts but voted for war and hang the actual benefit, the consequences and reality anyway.
16 x RAF Fighter-bombers into Cyprus deployed, dropped 14 bombs in two attacks, on a largely defunct target. Also did some stuff in Iraq but that's old news. Its political, shop window bombing then of no repeat no tactical value whatsoever... (but with incredible risk for the downed aircrew if it goes wrong, of course)?
The targets are not there.
Valued against the splits it exposed, the anger it stirred and the risk it puts ordinary people (like me, selfishly) on our own streets from revenge (because now they have a motive and an excuse and an easy target and the probable opportunity).
Already had 1 attack in alleged revenge, admittedly a madman by the sound of things, in London. I somehow dread more madmen.

And the cost in cash to keep this going. This farce... we now have winter floods causing very heavy damage that will require tens of millions of GBP to rectify, an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics, manufacturing down, imports up, balance of trade yet again in the red... We are not in reality.
As the alleged comedian said, they voted for the war because it made them feel important.
HS.

[Mach Two]

Hangarshuffle,

I can see your feelings about this operation and your anger at the vote not going what is obviously your way. But your post is quite wrong beyond expressing the depth of your ire.

You may rest assured our air ops are running well and tasking is well considered. Current force allocation is well matched to operational requirements. Please be aware we are not just plinking targets.

I think you might do well to sort out in your head which bits are current operational facts and which bits are Hangarshuffle angst. As for keeping the thread going, it seems to be stimulating mostly worthwhile discussion so I would agree with your call.

[Simplythebeast]

Hangarshuffle..."an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics". Would that mean not going in the direction that YOU want it to go? Because it is going in a far better direction than had it been left to the alternative set of chumps.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Hangarshuffle..."an economy really not moving in the right direction at all under Osbornomics". Would that mean not going in the direction that YOU want it to go? Because it is going in a far better direction than had it been left to the alternative set of chumps.

How is the doubling of national debt going in the right direction?

[SkyHawk-N]

Interesting BBC News article on UK operations over Syria.

It is of course still early days. But given the limited number of UK air strikes it begs the questions: why was the government so keen to expand the air strikes to Syria, and why the agonising over a vote that appears to have changed relatively little?

Are UK bombs making a difference in Syria? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35166971)

[Mach Two]

How is the doubling of national debt going in the right direction?

OK, you keep on using this as a forum for expressing your political views - most of which appear to have been gained from the pages of the tabloids. As your posts appear to be anti-everything it's hard to know where your rants come from, but in this case it seems to be anti-Tory. So here's your answer.

First understand the difference between debt and deficit. Then understand how the people that whinge about the debt are the same people that whinge about the Government's efforts to reduce the deficit. Finally understand how outraged you and yours would be if the Government had imposed those savings more quickly - quickly enough to reduce their inherited deficit to below zero and, thereby, start to reduce the debt.

It's very simple if you take the trouble to understand it.

Now, why don't we use this forum to discuss Military Aviation?

[Courtney Mil]

Are UK bombs making a difference in Syria? The ones that take out Stone Age terrorist are and will. Tasking and targeting are the keys. Parliament voting "yes" doesn't mean the RAF have to suddenly do anything.

When there are valid, confirmed targets there, they will hit them. If they hit anything else, the BBC would be all over that too. And there will be another IHAT.

Ops will be conducted cautiously and carefully against confirmed targets.

[Mach Two]

We are conducting ops at a pace appropriate to targeting. Your media article, whilst well constructed and considered, does not fully reflect the operational picture.

[NutLoose]

SAS sniper 'pulverises' trio of ISIS butchers from over 1km away and through a brick wall (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/sas-sniper-pulverises-trio-of-isis-butchers-from-over-1km-away-and-through-a-brick-wall/ar-BBo9soz?li=AA59G2&ocid=iehp)


The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.




Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis.
He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.






If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

The parliamentary debate would seem to have been with the intention of permitting actions in Syria should the need arise. The raids hours after that vote was no doubt to demonstrate capability and intent.

The subsequent inaction could have several reasons other than a lack of suitable targets.

One might be to leave the Syrian TOO to the Russians. Another might be to concentrate in Iraq to try and clear that rats nest first. Either shows concentration and maintenance of an aim rather than a fragmentary effort in the whole TOO.

[Lonewolf_50]

SAS sniper 'pulverises' trio of ISIS butchers from over 1km away and through a brick wall (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/sas-sniper-pulverises-trio-of-isis-butchers-from-over-1km-away-and-through-a-brick-wall/ar-BBo9soz?li=AA59G2&ocid=iehp)

The incredible incident happened during the battle for Ramadi in Iraq last week and the staff sergeant was part of a small team of British special forces who have been advising the Iraqi army.

Rocket attacks were also turned down amid fears the building could collapse and kill innocent civilians.
The SAS sniper then offered his services - which were gratefully accepted by the Iraqis. He positioned himself in a building around one kilometre away and then fired some 30 armour-piercing rounds into the building - killing the trio of butchers and demolishing the wall.

If that's advising I'd hate to see the results of him joining in ;)
While I tip my cap to the SAS gent who did well (thumbs up) I am not all that keen on seeing the operational details spewed all over the press. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

[MATELO]

The RAF has used Brimstone missiles on Islamic State targets in Syria for the first time, Downing Street has confirmed.

The radar-guided weapons, designed to hit smaller, precise targets, were launched during four missions against terror targets on Sunday.

The missiles are rocket propelled and detonate a tandem charge on impact to ensure penetration of armour.


RAF Fires Brimstone Missiles At Islamic State (http://news.sky.com/story/1620629/raf-fires-brimstone-missiles-at-islamic-state)

[airsound]

The RAF seems to have decided that, if no one else will bang their drum for them, they'll do it themselves. This is Air Marshal Greg Bagwell, Deputy Cdr Ops, "reflecting" onthe RAF contribution to the UK's fight against the terrorist group Daeshhttps://modmedia.blog.gov.uk/2016/01/14/raf-deputy-commander-of-operations-the-fight-against-daesh/

Some stirring stuff, which ends withwe should be very proud of our contribution, which is making a real difference despite what you hear from those who choose to value quantity over quality. Airpower is our major advantage in this conflict and the RAF is a very significant part of its successful delivery.airsound

[racedo]

Call Me Dave has admitted his 70,000 moderate rebels don't exisit.............. wow who would have thunk it.:rolleyes:

[Hangarshuffle]

About me asking her not to vote for bombing. But she voted for it anyway. Quite a long letter, I appreciate it, really. And somehow think better of her for writing it.
Easier to start the bombing than end it. At what point does the operation end? No-one will ever say.

[Load Toad]

So, this bombing - helped to bring about a solution, an improvement - anything useful yet or not?

[Pontius Navigator]

LT, it is very difficult to measure the effect of a prophylactic. Even shooting a man carrying a rifle does not prove you stopped him shooting someone. Indeed that is one reason for restrictive ROE