CASA - NEW FATIGUE POLICY

[Juliet Alpha]

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...f?v=1381844306 (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/pilots/download/fatigue.pdf?v=1381844306)

CASA has produced an excellent resource. Hopefully it will now be implemented successfully with all airlines and crew. Managing fatigue is definitely a shared responsibility. I liked how this guide reinforces that. As they say you can't manage fatigue with coffee and willpower.

[busdriver007]

Problem is Mr Skidmore put it off until April 2017 not 2016 as stated on the document. Reason given because "airlines are not ready!" or in Rex's case the new rules cost too much! Emirates have told their own pilots that FRM will increase productivity by 30%. That is NOT what FRM is all about!

[Toruk Macto]

Whats it going to take for the industry to sit up and take notice of fatigue ? Start banning airlines from operating in some countries airspace if their FTL's are beyond a joke ? Or we have to wait for a few thousand to perish ?

[Juliet Alpha]

I missed the delay until 2017. He (Mr Skidmore) probably just acquiesced to airline management. Fatigue causes mental health issues and all sorts of other problems. Time to implement not delay.

[Ollie Onion]

Problem is that although CASA is stressing that Fatigue Management is a joint responsibility there has been little input into the new FRMS regime by aircrew!

Having spoken to management at my own airline about this, the manager concerned took great pleasure in telling me that he thought that the new FRMS rules to be implemented by my airline were going to give greater productivity and flexibility. He said ' we are really looking forward to its introduction because if we can show CASA that rostering 5 night flights in a row is better for fatigue management than the current cap on night duty hours then they will let us do it!'.

Given CASA's past eagerness to grant concessions and exemptions whenever required I don't hold out much hope for the FRMS. A truly collaborative process were we are all jointly responsible would have involved a hell of a lot more consultation on what the final scheme would look like at each airline. Instead we have been told that the airline will design it, get it approved and we will get to look at it just prior to implementation.

[Juliet Alpha]

A shame Ollie,

One would have hoped for improved collaboration. I wonder if the document is just all for show and nothing changes?

[Vref+5]

FRMS; Definition. An approved procedure used by operators to justify making pilots fly more hours

[Ixixly]

Last I checked there was actually very little real Scientific investigation into Fatigue Management in Aviation. So the question must be asked, if Operators are now able to make their own FRMS, on what are they basing their justification and proof that it will keep the Pilots safe, other than a whole lot of hot air and fancy words that seem appropriate at the time?

I, as I suspect many others do, think that all this will accomplish is allowing Operators to push Pilots even further so long as they can "Justify" it when all and sundry know their only real reasoning is to make more money. If the all operators increase the number of Hours their Pilots are Flying and are On Duty then would it not stand to reason that safety must have been reduced? I don't believe anyone could possibly think that increasing these hours could possibly INCREASE safety in any way, shape or form.

[sillograph]

To have your FRMS looked at by CASA you have to have gathered 12 months of data which has to have been analysed over the 12 months by some scientist or somebody.
So if you haven't done this yet or haven't started this then I would say you'll be using the standard numbers in CAO 48, when exemptions finally expire.
I can't see any small company with less than 20 aircraft going down that path, which means there really will not be that many submissions to CASA anyway.

[Seabreeze]

So CASA will need to approve any FRMS proposed by airlines. Fair enough in concept. But what process will be followed to assess a proposed FRMS, and who in CASA has the expertise to do this objectively and scientifically?

The brightly-coloured brochure is hardly a resource to provide professional guidance. It reads more like a list of issues compiled from wikipedia, with not a scientific reference on fatigue to be seen.

Seabreeze

[Hoofharted]

You are NOT fatigued, you are just tired!! Anyone else heard this from their enlightened management/safety department? :sad:

[Di_Vosh]

You are NOT fatigued, you are just tired!! Anyone else heard this from their enlightened management/safety department?

ROFL!

Many times!

Last time I was in EP's we were told that "YOU are the only person who can say if you're fatigued". I had to correct them to say that "My Fleet manager is the only person who can say if I'm fatigued." They were unimpressed.

Last year I had 1 in 3 of my fatigued days changed to Sick days by my Fleet manager, after he'd decided that I wasn't fatigued after all.

DIVOSH!

[AerocatS2A]

You are NOT fatigued, you are just tired!! Anyone else heard this from their enlightened management/safety department? :sad:

"All right, I'm tired, either way I'm not fit to work..."

[Juliet Alpha]

The stigma must end. Fatigue is fatigue, period. People become exhausted, sick and tired. It all comes from being fatigued. Nobody gives a darn at CASA or airline management.

We have good days and nights and then some days and nights it feels like wading through quicksand due to exhaustion even with light exercise, sound sleep and good food, no alcohol and appropriate hydration.

Again, coffee and willpower just don't cut it.

Is it going to take a prang for something 'real' to change...?

[The name is Porter]

My experience of FRMS is that it is designed to protect & absolve the employer. It is not designed to protect the employee. It is purely a tool to allow an employer to sign off on ridiculous tactical staff replacement. It is not a tool to help or protect an employee.

[Keg]

you are just tired!! Anyone else heard this from their enlightened management/safety department?

I think ICAO changed the definition a couple of years ago so that now if you're tired, you're fatigued. I know that Qantas a bunch of years ago had a distinction between being tired (not enough sleep last night) and fatigued (cumulative build up of disrupted rest or something like that) but to my pleasant surprise that changed a few years back.

This is the definition Qantas uses now:

A physiological state of reduced mental or physical performance capability resulting from sleep loss or extended wakefulness and/or physical activity that can impair a crew member’s alertness and ability to safely operate an aircraft or perform safety related duties.

So maybe someone should check the ICAO info and confirm if my recollection is correct. If so you may be able to educate your respective managers. Maybe the ISARPS mention it also?

This is the link Qantas provides to the CASA info.

https://www.casa.gov.au/operations/standard-page/fatigue-management-australian-aviation-industry-–-toolkit?WCMS%3ASTANDARD%3A%3Apc=PC_100913

[morno]

Just ask Canadian Rail what happens when they overwork their employees because of inadequate fatigue management policies.

I have a feeling in 10-15 years there'll be a documentary on TV about how a major accident was caused by crappy fatigue management in aviation, and how it was the catalyst for robust FRMS's. All too late of course....

morno

[The name is Porter]

I don't think people quite understand FRMS. It's risk management for the employer NOT a set of rules ensuring your (the employee) health & wellbeing. It allows them (management) signing off on your known fatigue with appropriate (there are none) mitigators. Heaven help a manager that signs off on fatigue when it goes tits up.

[dizzylizzy]

Sadly still, this leave a strong safety mechanism out for abuse - continual abuse. People notifying central of fatigue after annual leave, after single sector duties (e/w), after 36hr slips..... fortunately its only cabin crew who take the piss.... Just a shame the business is left to pick up the pieces again.

[Juliet Alpha]

Dizzy, perhaps a touch unfair re Cabin Crew. A bit of a sweeping statement perhaps. No offense or personal stuff. Perhaps all aircrew both flight and cabin may be considered?

Are you ever fatigued? I know I am and I see how the cc are flogged.

[Kelly Slater]

The document says that CAO 48 hasn't changed significantly in 50 years. I'd say the Industry exemptions are somewhat significant.

[C441]

This document, nor the policy is "new".

The brochure was first released almost 2 years ago. Nothing has changed since and given the enthusiasm for change demonstrated by some in the industry, nothing will change anytime soon without significantly greater effort.