BA Direct Entry Roadshows

[Wheelflyer300]

They are looking for 330 direct entry pilots in 2016. Here's the link:

British Airways announces Direct Entry recruitment roadshows - Pilot Career News (http://www.pilotcareernews.com/british-airways-announces-direct-entry-recruitment-roadshows/#article)

[Trafalgar]

Dan, don't be ridiculous. Why would anyone want to trade a career of chaos and misery for the opportunity to live and work in/near your home, with a recognised first world airline with robust labour law protections and exciting career path (not to mention hosties you can actually tell a joke to)? Sorry man, but you are going to have to do waaaaay better than that to get me to give up the pollution, dirt, non-rostering system, joke rosters, crowds, shoebox apartments, cultured locals and all the other wonderful aspects of living in HK. Don't forget, by staying with CX, you are assured that the management will continually demonstrated respect and gratitude towards you for the sacrifice you make. If that doesn't convince you, then being able to put away thousands of $$$$ a month into savings should surely swing it. Oh, wait....

[McNugget]

Oh look - it's Dan Buster and Trafalgar.

Yawn.

FYI. There are vast numbers not applying for a multitude of reasons.

Mine is thus - because I'm not a total idiot, I actually save more each month than my net take-home would be at BA.

[Anotherday]

Ahh yes McNugget, BA also get the days off if that's the roster you bid for. And you can go part time for even more days off.

So for you, forget the pollution and everything else that you and your family endure.

It's all about the money................

[McNugget]

No, it's not 'all about the money', but I'm not doing this for free.

Every month I work brings my retirement date forward a month. That's quite compelling.
My wife and I are very happy here, thanks.

I'm aware of the pros and cons of BA. There are many of both. So, like many on HKPA, for a whole host of reasons, I won't be applying.

Ps, their Chrystal rostering system, while better than our non-system, is now pretty poor by world standards. A big departure from what Bidline was.

[Shoebox]

(not to mention hosties you can actually tell a joke to)

Yeah but they'll still think you're a ****.

[McNugget]

But you are doing it for about 50% less. :hmm:

Yet my take-home pay is exactly double what it would be as a BA LH DEP.


Thanks for the encouragement - I do enjoy living in said cesspool. There is a huge amount of fun to be had here.

I don't live with any spikey haired 'dudes'. I live with my wife. She doesn't have spikey hair, either.

And no - you're wrong. While many do hope for an increase in HKPA, it isn't why people are staying. Those that are hoping are also applying elsewhere.

Thanks for telling me how I think, though.

You really are a sad act.

[mngmt mole]

McNugget. Just exactly how long does it take to get approval back from management after review before you submit each post? You talk about 'take home'. Haha. Yes, and then you start paying HK prices. And I'm sure you and your wife are living in adequate accommodation as well. There's always one......

[McNugget]

McNugget. Just exactly how long does it take to get approval back from management after review before you submit each post? You talk about 'take home'. Haha. Yes, and then you start paying HK prices. And I'm sore you and your wide are living in adequate accommodation as well. There's always one......

I'm having to guess at the general direction of your comment, as it was borderline illegible.

Feel free not to believe what I say. I couldn't give a **** either way what you think.

HK is expensive, congratulations on working that out. I'm still financially far better off being here.

Would I like better accommodation? Naturally. But I also like 16-18 days off a month, and low tax regime thus higher take home, etc... Which I wouldn't stand a chance of getting at BA. I fact, if I could be bothered, I could spend more time in one of my more-than-adequate places in the UK than I would be able to working at BA.

All things considered, though, I'll stay out. Thanks for your concern.

[Avinthenews]

This is exactly CX's plan, get them in the door while things appear good for the early years by the time a family and schooling comes around seniority (the great system we actually think works for us :ugh:) has well and truly taken hold and the company can forever turn the screws knowing you've got nowhere to go!

With hindsight I should have left when I had the chance, sure I'd not retire as early but at least I would have seen my kids grow up in the country I call home. Plus I could always become a SIM instructor with CX :}

[Trafalgar]

Dan. I suspect that McNug is simply bitter and is therefore trying to justify his decision in spite of all the obvious contradictions in his comments. He either is or will be management. His attitude is perfect.

[Captn_Kirk]

More likely he couldn't make it to BA and is trying to convince himself he's better off here.

Nuggets, don't ever complain about HKPA or lack of basing.

[Joejetjock]

You guys all need to chill.
What any single person decides to pursue is up to him/her....surely.
We never know if our decisions were the right ones until the end: and even then we may not be sure.
No one else has the right or legitimacy to criticize choices that inherently, are personal. Such individuals that do criticize the decisions of others, provide nothing more than a source of light entertainment.
Live and let live.

[McNugget]

More likely he couldn't make it to BA and is trying to convince himself he's better off here.

Nuggets, don't ever complain about HKPA or lack of basing.
Yeh, perhaps you're right. Idiot.

And I won't, don't worry. If I wanted a base I would have been awarded it a couple of bids ago.

Traf - there is only one person here that comes a cross as relentlessly bitter; day in, day out, and it's not me.

Oh, and out of curiosity (as opposed to giving a **** what a bitter old man like you thinks) could you point out all of these 'obvious contradictions in my comments'?

[McNugget]

Some more garbage


You are wrong. The last LHR bid went senior. The one before was, like the one before it, awarded to JFOs, contingent on passing QL. I was higher in seniority than a friend who was awarded it.

Get your facts straight. You're looking more foolish than ever.

Contradictions, please?

Oh, I apologise. I'm FO1 - somewhere between 4.5-5 yeas in. Top stalking, though.

[betpump5]

£2500 pounds a month salary (29'500HKD) with 40% going to a bunch of pikeys.

Where do I sign up!

[McNugget]

£2500 pounds a month salary (29'500HKD) with 40% going to a bunch of pikeys.

Where do I sign up!

I think you're looking at the 'cadet' salary - for FPP cadets and those fresh out of flight school.

A DEP can expect 4,100-4,300 a month long haul. Again, still poor but the amongst the best of a bad lot. Europe is ridiculous now.

[betpump5]

so you are saying the Pikeys will get more welfare benefits?

£4'100 = 48500HKD= SO 1st year salary+ HKPA.

[McNulty]

Dan, don't be ridiculous. Why would anyone want to trade a career of chaos and misery for the opportunity to live and work in/near your home, with a recognised first world airline with robust labour law protections and exciting career path (not to mention hosties you can actually tell a joke to)? Sorry man, but you are going to have to do waaaaay better than that to get me to give up the pollution, dirt, non-rostering system, joke rosters, crowds, shoebox apartments, cultured locals and all the other wonderful aspects of living in HK. Don't forget, by staying with CX, you are assured that the management will continually demonstrated respect and gratitude towards you for the sacrifice you make. If that doesn't convince you, then being able to put away thousands of $$$$ a month into savings should surely swing it. Oh, wait....

Grass is always greener syndrome. Give me the polite, respectful asian cabin crew any day of the week (careful with the kind of jokes you tell the crew in western airlines, very easily offended). Give me the vibrant expat scene in HK over the dreary miserable culture back home. London is great if you like rain, high taxes and being treated like a terrorist by staff security every day despite doing a million background checks (no liquids >100ml captain).

Sorry if you're miserable in HK, but life as an FO in BA won't be quite the western civilized utopia you're dreaming of. And you will certainly be financially less well off too, have you looked at rental prices in London recently? Food for thought.

[3Greens]

I don't know a single BA pilot that actually lives in London. If money is your bag then live in France and pay about 15%tax. Easily done and hundreds do.
I have no idea what the bloke who mention our crystal bidding system is on about. We still have bid line. Albeit with a few changes over years gone by, but it's still bid line. Crystal is the software we use to bid annually to change seats, bases or types.
I'm a 15 year SFO, living in France and take home £8500 per month.
Does anyone really base a career decision on how the cabin crew react to a joke?

[Threethirty]

McNulty, at least the BA cabin crew would understand the joke on the way to being offended. Don't try and pretend there is any banter with our lot, please! Sounds like you're seriously clutching at straws.

[Anotherday]

Ok I'll mention the elephant in the room.

1 in 5 cadets end up in the left seat in CX.

19 out of 20 cadets end up in the left seat at BA.

Every cadet at CX will sadly tell you they're the 1 in 5 when obviously this isn't the case, you can't all be. Can't see this changing.

[Shoebox]

McNulty, at least the BA cabin crew would understand the joke on the way to being offended. Don't try and pretend there is any banter with our lot, please! Sounds like you're seriously clutching at straws.

Nigel / Threethirty

Why don't you open your narrow minded brain and realise that our crew don't get your ****ty jokes? Different cultures bring different humour. Just because they don't laugh at your 'banter' doesn't mean you have to cry. If you want laughs, go and become a stand-up comedian. :ugh:

For the record, BA cabin crew hate their pilots too. :ok:

[bellcrank88]

Some of them go straight to the CAD instead and are now checking our pilots!

Great system eh?

[Anotherday]

Maybe that's the biggest benefit of hiring cadets, everything CX does is normal since you don't know any differently.
The grading system A, B, C, D1, D2
P files
The other P files
QLs
Star chamber
'Checkers to avoid' lists

All completely normal if you've never worked at BA, QF, Virgin etc.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Er, wouldn't that be also 4 in 20 :=

[flyingbynight]

Nigel / Threethirty

Just a heads up - if nobody laughs at your jokes it means your jokes are ****.

[XFR8]

More puerile bickering on a public forum.
It's getting really embarrassing.

[Air Profit]

Very defensive McNugget. Most people who are convinced of their arguments don't bother getting their knickers in a twist quite so emphatically.

[CCA]

My advice is to see where you will want to end your career and get there as fast as you can

So so true, or find yourself as a sad git returning as a simulator instructor because you haven't planned your retirement.

[Threethirty]

Excellent post Baggagecart, echoes my sentiments exactly.

[Freehills]

True Baggagecart. However, cost of property in SE UK means that a large family property near extended family is probably out of reach unless you have a large inheritance. As above, many BA pilots have moved out of the UK - which gives you the large property, but not the near family bit, and also messes up education.

4 bed house within commuting distance of Heathrow = small fortune.

[bringbackthe80s]

Lots of talk about long term plans and career decisions on here, but given the outlook in Europe especially, do you guys really think traditional flag carriers will be going strong in 10 years time? Short haul is already 100% low cost and you can see quite clearly where the market is heading..the world is changing, be careful what you wish for.

[wiggy]

Heard people are getting A320 command bids after a rare 2-3 years now in BA as opposed to the 6-7 before, the opportunity is there.

If I may join in for a minute....that might continue (the 2-3 years to command) , but I think the feeling is we are seeing a very short "dip" in seniority to command for reasons various. If the senior folks who didn't bid this year start bidding across to the LHS in normal numbers it will back to the 6-7 years bracket, if not more.

As for UK and finances..we all know you guys are loaded and can afford it...::E Seriously though, on the subject of housing, as has been correctly mentioned a "4 bed house within commuting distance of Heathrow = small fortune." Getting a suitable house both within short haul roster commuting distance of LHR and inside the catchment area of a good state (i.e. free) school ups the cost even more.

Old article, concentrates on metropolitan London but gives you some idea:

245%: That?s the postcode premium for living in catchment area of top London school | London Life | Lifestyle | London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/245-that-s-the-postcode-premium-for-living-in-catchment-area-of-top-london-school-8953893.html)

Whatever your choice, good luck.

[Freehills]

True, Portsmouth is still affordable. Parts of Bournemouth too.

[Foxdeux]

BA is more prestigious though, even though CX has its routes from the British Colony, it might as well be part of China Eastern with that sh!t livery. BA uniforms look a lot better with those platinum stripes rather than gaudy gold most airlines use. I think they're the only ones?

[Trafalgar]

Nope, no, nuh-uh, no way. I'm going to stay in HK and suffer. I enjoy the misery and pain. Why would I give that up for a stable and happy life back home? :ugh:

[Anotherday]

Remember a wee while back when CX hired a dozen or so retIred exBA -400 skippers as DEC on the freighters. They had about 200,000 hrs LHS between them. Memory is hazy but didn't we fired most of them in initial training on our -400s?

[Cavallier]

Anotherday,
I believe there might have been a few bad "eggs" joining probably trying to treat it as a glorified retirement job but also it was highly political at the time and many competent guys were the victims of a number of STCs with points to prove and axes to grind.
All of the ones that stayed however were highly competent and a real pleasure to fly with.

The Cav

[Avinthenews]

How many of the BA cadets that got sidelined and joined CX as S/O's stayed?

[Captain Dart]

Nearly all went back to BA (edited after Dan's post below) and they had been on full CX B Scale with reasonable housing, etc. Says it all, really.

The funniest thing was the frantic bidding by some of our cabin crew for 'Second Officer futures on the Bombay stock market'; many a young British lad left HKG with an Indian missus after having been very aggressively targeted!

[rockarpee]

Sorry, little bit confused here, are you guys saying living in GB is better than HKG......pricelessss. I thought QF dudes won the whinginging Oscars but you guys truly take the cake:D

[airplaneridesrfun]

BA over CX hands down!!

If you stick around CX, they will attempt to make you sign a new contract to take or keep a base. This does not mean that they are always successful.

If you watch what is happening in the US right now, you will understand. All officers are 'required' to sign a contract by December 4th in order to keep their base.... clearly in contravention to good faith bargaining under the Railway Labor Act in the USA. The kicker and divider is this. Most US based pilots do not have the right to work or live in the US. If any of them returned to HK, they would never get a North American base (judging by their seniority numbers). Therefore, those suckers will sign the dotted line, and complain that a gun was pointed at their head. What these individuals do not know (but should), is that CX wants them to validate their paycut in 2008, and sign the contract. After Dec 4th, CX will be make it mandatory to prove the right to work in the US, and if that condition is not met, these officers will have to return to HK anyway as of Jan 1st; hence the Dec 4th deadline.

Now do you see why they can't open a NYC base???

Once you understand how CX operates, BA looks pretty good!! Eventually, you can fly the trunk routes to destinations throughout the commonwealth, and live in a civilized country.

Just a rumor of course, but that is what this board is all about.

[Anotherday]

Isn't there an Agreement (and hasn't there always been) between the US and Canadian Govts that states as aircrew you can work out of either country as citizen of either country and basically live anywhere. Which means that all along Canadians and Americans have had the right to legally bid on bases in either country.
I think AOAC are currently "confirming" this agreement via lawyers in an attempt to get Cathay to understand that perhaps an agreement in US and Canadian law should be considered alongside our COS.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Actually, there is not. Just because someone says it, does not make it true. The same goes for this board, so feel free to post the relevant agreement you are referring to.

Mexicans are also not legally allowed to work in the USA without marrying a fat woman, or having a green card. Why would any other nationality be different?

[Trafalgar]

Another day. There is NO such agreement between the US and Canada. Unless you are an illiterate, non-english speaking brown skinned skill-less vagrant who stumbles across the Rio Grande with your belongings in a plastic shopping bag, you are not welcome. If you fall under the above mentioned category you will be supported by numerous illegal alien support groups and eventually be given a green card. Canadians however are NOT welcome.

[elgringo]

Wait...what does filling out an I-9 have to do with opening a JFK base?


The only reason they are not opening any bases, giving out base slots is that they do NOT have enough people to man HonG Kong much less let anyone go on a base.

It will be years before CX awards more than 1 or 2 guys to go on a base. They keep dangling the carrot so we won't leave.


Many of us have or are resigned to being career F/O's on a base. Cat A and Easily senior enough to be hkg based captain, there is no chance I would ever go back to Hong Kong. Did my time.

Sad thing is, when I joined there was a JFK base on the 74 pax and freighter. One could expect to eventually be a captain on a base...no more. Ah well. It is what it is.

Make ones bed now lie in it.

[GTC58]

airplaneridesrfun

you are very misinformed and clearly you have no clue what is going on in regards of the US on-shoring.

1. The deadline is Dec 8th.
2. USAOA lawyers determined that it is legal for the company to impose first contract
3. Actually most pilots on the US bases have to right to live and work in the USA.
There are only approx. 10 Canadian Senior FO's left on US bases. And they have the right to work for CX on a US base, but not the right to live in the US. Every officer on the US bases filled out the I-9 form. Nobody will have to return to HKG.
4. Most Canadians on a US base are very senior as they are captains or could hold a command in HKG. There is only a handful officers left with 8-9 years seniority.
5. No-one signed a new contract, just a transfer letter to the new US company, as per USAOA recommendation.
6. Only B-scale FO's could potentially take a pay-cut, however pay is protected until the first negotiated CBA. Most US FO's receive B-scale pay, so a pay-cut for them in CBA negotiations will be a hard sell in the current environment.

You wrote:
"What these individuals do not know (but should), is that CX wants them to validate their paycut in 2008, and sign the contract."

Are you for real? You absolutely have no clue what you are talking about.

And if they ever open up a JFK base, the majority of JFK Commands will go to some very Senior Freighter Captains and very Senior CAT A'd FO's who are already on a US base. Many US based FO's turned down their Command in HKG and are waiting for a Command on a US base. If AOAC wins their grievance/arbitration there might be some Canadian Captains and FO's bidding for it too. As for FO slots, the only way to fill all of them is to hire DEFO again, directly onto the base.

[airplaneridesrfun]

On the I-9 form - do you need to have the right to work in the USA?

apparently I am misinformed, and you know it all.

COS 08 was a pay cut, and also should have been temporary (if you believe NR). Any COS 99 officers will also have to accept retirement past 55, and lose BPP - not to mention the paycut you mentioned. The benefit of going to CX was to take a command at a younger age, and be able to retire before 55..... now that BPP is being taken away, the goal posts have moved again.

Seniority matters for whom can hold command in the junior base (HKG), but as for basings CX obviously has to follow the law of the land.... and can impose any policy they wish in order to remain compliant to the laws of any sovereign country.

All USAB officers on COS '99 should just take a HKG base, with housing, CEA, and 13th month, and keep their BPP.

[GTC58]

I-9, yes everyone on the US base has the right to work for CX operating foreign registered aircraft.

For the rest, wrong again, I guess you are out of the loop.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Read the I-9 application. How can anybody without the right to live or work in the USA can fill out an I-9 without the legal means to work in the USA? Perjury is the only option I see; but then again I'm out of the loop. I would be happy to hear an explanation using government laws and documents, and quoting the applicable legislation.

Why does it matter that we fly foreign registered aircraft? The individuals on a US base are employed in the USA, for a HK company. Some of them could do continuous patterns on the freighter without leaving the USA. Unless you have a greencard, are a USA citizen, or marry a fat american woman/man.... then you are out of luck working in the USA without a work visa (not possible for FO's). Fortunately, there are plenty of fatty's to go around, and vegas is close to SFO and LAX, so that option is available.

What grievance is the AOAC filing? I am definitely out of the loop on that one, as I'm not in the AOAC.

[GTC58]

Canadian Senior Captain was successful bidding last LAX bid, however didn't get the base as he is Canadian, no US visa. Basings agreement does not say anything about visa requirements for a base, only residence. As the basings agreement is part of the Canadian CBA he grieved it.
Fact is that the new CX USA is still a HKG company, a foreign entity with a US business licence. As such a Canadian can be employed with CX USA, operate foreign registered aircraft from a US base as long as that officer is a US non-resident entering on a C1/D1 visa. The I-9 is no problem in this case with proper documentation.
All these conspiracy theories that CX or the officers are breaking the law in this regard are wrong. The US immigration department, the US IRS are fully aware for many many years that all these Canadians are on US bases even before the on-shoring.

[Liam Gallagher]

GTC58,

“No-one signed a new contract, just a transfer letter to the new US Company as per USAOA recommendation.”

This from a US based friend who sees matters very differently.

Really? I know that is how USAOA is trying to market this to us, however COS16 is not COS08 and it is certainly not COS99. COS16 has 3 major changes;
1. COS16 is retirement age 65. FO BPP is lost for those on COS99. We have to sign it away. BPP will have to be defended in the Courts and is no longer contractual as it was with COS99 - a major change.
2. We are agreeing that Rostering is in accordance with Company Policy. This sets us apart from HK and the UK who maintain that RP07 lives on.
3. Our new contract is interpreted in accordance with Californian law.

We are not being employed by a “new US Company”, it’s actually a new HK Company.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is probably a duck. COS16, looks like a new contract, has changes like a new contract, we have a new employer, it’s a new contract.

Some guys are in denial and the only way they can rationalize this is to call it a transfer. If that’s what it takes to get them through the day, fair enough I guess.... but they are deluding themselves.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Immigration authorities are fully aware this is happening? If that is the case, then I would challenge all illegal officers to tell the US immigration guy that they are coming to the US to work.

If CX has a US business license, then they have to follow US rules. Even if they base people in the USA without a US business license - CX still has to follow the law. This is a waste of the AOAC's funds, as they do not have the ability to circumvent laws.

[GTC58]

Liam

if you read my post again I said no-one signed a new contract, but a transfer letter. CX imposed a new contract - COS16. As the contract was imposed no-one is agreeing to anything and all US officers retain their legal right to challenge pay-scales, BPP and RP's. Some of this will be binding arbitration, some issues might end up in court and some disputes will be handled by the EEOC. Read the USAOA letter in regards of the contract and it explains it all. Of course negotiations for the CBA already started, so maybe some issues will be solved via negotiation.

airplaneridesrfun

Yes, Canadian officers telling the US immigration guy that they are commuting to the US to work. You would be foolish not to tell the truth. That's why they get stamped a B1/C1 or D1 visa in their passport. No-one is illegal regardless what you think. Maybe hire an immigration lawyer like CX and some of the Canadian officers did to get a legal opinion. Every US based Canadian officer completed an I-9, well if you would be right those officers will be denied employment with the new CX USA.

The Canadian grievance has nothing to do with US laws but with a breach of their CBA.

[Threethirty]

What's this got to do with BA? Back on topic, I can't see BA doing any roadshow here, maybe Dubai though.

[airplaneridesrfun]

The AOAC CBA cannot contravene laws of another country! I guess we will see what happens, but I have a pretty good idea that CX does not want to pay immigration fines, and deal with the other consequences (it would be hard to make AT a sim instructor with her experience);and it is for more than 10 FO's, btw.

Long story short, go to BA if you have the chance, otherwise deal with this bunch of baboons the rest of your career (and I mean the pilots who think they are above the law). Hopefully, this diatribe has proven it is time to move on if you have the opportunity, and that bases are used solely to degrade COS's.