Can you identify this instrument

[Whopity]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38428747/Drift%20Inst.JPG

Do you know what this instrument is and what it was used in?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Do we get any clues?

G

[Chesty Morgan]

Apparent wind gauge from some kind of sailing vessel?

[good spark]

is there anything on the back?





gs

[Simplythebeast]

Looks like a marine wind guage.

[philbky]

Looks like a marine wind guage.

Which could also be a wind gauge from an airship

[zlin77]

Looks like an inclinometer, used by ships to determine how far they are heeling over...

[DaveReidUK]

Looks like an inclinometer, used by ships to determine how far they are heeling over...

Slight scary that the scale goes up to 180° ...

[sablatnic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXF-TjOjD5k

[Wander00]

That's odd - no picture in Post 1, just a little black box:confused:

[Stanwell]

Yep, same here.
I thought it was just me.

[wanabee777]

Whew! I was about to go out for an eye exam.:ugh:

[Rossian]

......it was there yesterday evening. And the dial "presentation" made it look like an g2b compass display aircraft instrument.

The Ancient Mariner

[Wander00]

Oh, well, and I thought it was just me being terminally stupid as usual. OK, back to the Horlicks

[rightbank]

That's odd - no picture in Post 1, just a little black box

Same for me. Presumably I need to download something to be able to see it. Any of you IT experts know what that would be?

[Whopity]

Hopefully I have fixed the dropbox image. No clues other that the 5T reference which looks RAF to me. My thought was that it might be airship related.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The little arrow above the 5T looks like an "HMG property" symbol - I have the same on the back of my wristwatch :E

Are there any connections or markings on the reverse? What's the diameter, roughly.

Whatever it is, the thing that I find most curious is the port/stbd asymmetry.


Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet that if you put a Geiger Counter to it, you may find it's fairly radioactive. Not because it's from a reactor, but because it looks like it may have used quite a lot of tritium or uranium based "glow in the dark" paint which was quite common for some years.

G

[Whopity]

Whatever it is, the thing that I find most curious is the port/stbd asymmetry.That is what puzzled me, I have asked the owner for more details. The 5 Stores Ref would normally have referred to Electrical Parts but I can find no reference to 5T!

2 days after giving a talk on Radio Navigation equipment, I was asked what this is!

My guess it that it has something to do with mooring airships.

[clunckdriver]

By no means the same but it looks very much like a "gun fire arc" limiter thing I once saw inside a ships gun turret, the fellow showing us around if I remember correctly said it was to prevent self inflicted damage in the event that the automatic interupter systems failed, however if memory serves me right it was a bloody great brass thingy with similar markings on it, but it was long ago and the ship {boat?} had been laid up since the end of the war.

[Tcraft41]

If it is WW II or earlier then it likely has a Radium painted dial. IIRC a 26,000 year half life. Tritium was used post WW II most likely starting in the early 1950's.

Hugh, retired Nuclear Safety guy who had the dubious experience of mapping the Radium contamination of the Elgin clock factories in northern Illinois. This was one of the places that the Radium Girls worked painting clock, watch and instrument faces..

[Whopity]

clunckdriver
You may well be right regarding a gunnery indicator.
Now received a picture of the rear:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38428747/Indicator%20rear.JPG

Clearly a remote electrical indicator, so that matches the 5T stores ref. Diameter 200mm.

[clunckdriver]

Jenkins, for the benifit of us in the colonies, could you please convert your last message into English or some other form more likely to be understood in the "Great White North"? I have in the past had to use a translator to understand Glasgow Tower so have little chance of understanding Royal Navy slang, although I must admit it is most likely understood by those with a sailing background, somthing I did my best to avoid during my military service as Im subject to "projectile vomiting "after one day at sea!{ but never air sick, go figure!}

[Wander00]

I think Jenkins refers to the "star" of a long ago and much loved Radio 4 programme based on a frigate with a name similar to "Troubridge"

[staircase]

Radio 4 ummmm, don't you mean (until 1967 anyway) the BBC Home Service?

[DaveReidUK]

In fact, The Navy Lark went out on the Light Programme (aka Radio 2).

[Wander00]

DR so it was. Back to the Horlicks (again)

[Whopity]

flux capacitorSounded like a load of BolluxWhat does flux capacitor mean?

The flux capacitor was the core component of Doctor Emmett Brown's time traveling DeLorean time machine and the following Jules Verne Train. Brown stated that the flux capacitor "is what makes time travel possible."DeLorean couldn't even make a car properly!

[parabellum]

Looks like a very simple DF, working off an incoming radio signal?

[Tcraft41]

Ran the image through TinEye and nothing found like it.

Looking at the backside image I see 5 wires and they are grouped in two and 3. This is the classic Selsyn grouping for a sender and a repeater. Connect them together and apply A/C power at the sender and they are electrical lock in rotation. Move one and the other follows.

I would have to find one of my engineering books to get more details as the last time I worked with them was in the early 1980's

[washoutt]

I got the picture by clicking the little icon of a torn paper sheet in the address bar of IE. It turns blue and I can now see the picture. I also lost the irritating message "Do you want to leave this page".

[Above The Clouds]

I do believe the markings on the port side have eroded away, if you zoom in you can still see faint marks that would have indicated the 70 and 80 degree positions assuming therefore both sides of the dial were equally graduated up to 180 degrees.

[wanabee777]

Clinometer for a WWII Gato class submarine?

[John Farley]

Given the +- 30 degree range is marked out in 1 degree divisions it suggests to me that whatever it was fitted to was likely to be frequently steady in this range. Plus the angle needed to be measured accurately and so was significant.

[Whopity]

I am inclined to think this is a remote readout for an Anemometer, maybe from the bridge of an aircraft carrier where the ship would be positioned into wind for launching and recovering aircraft.

[Tcraft41]

Just checked about 300 detailed internal pictures of the Gato class sub, USS COD SS 224 that I took during a visit to Cleveland, OH some years ago. Pentax 7 m pixel images.

Nothing that resembles the instrument under discussion. Several pictures have incline meters in them but they appear to mechanical not electrical.

My visit was to see the sub that a close friend had done 4 war patrol's on 43 ~ 45. He talked a lot about the patrols and the action during them. Shortly before I visited the sub he left us on his last patrol. Wished I could have talked to him after the visit.

[wanabee777]

Scratch that guess.:O

[clunckdriver]

Well, I think this is the first time that PPrune hasnt come up with a definative answer on somthing like this, but there has to be some clever chap who will know for sure, maybe be we should offer a reward for the correct answer?

[Wageslave]

Thus it isn't likely to be aviation related.

Looks to me like some kind of Naval synchro/repeater as suggested above.

The restricted arc is big clue and probably rules out a wind instrument. That arc is to do with aligning something that needs to be accurately positioned within 30 deg of "ahead" and less accurately on the rest of the arcs. The restricted arc implies that for some reason it cannot be placed between Red 60 and 180. Figure what that might be and we'll have an answer.
Likely to be something not mounted on the centreline but that has limited movement across it to the left like Stbd side armament on a cruiser or battleship.

A deck crane perhaps? Torpedo tube? Not something requiring much precision like a range finder for instance.
AA/high elevation gun might fit though the emphasis on the straight ahead markings doesn't seem logical there.

[clunckdriver]

If anyone knows a good maritime web site maybe they would have the answer, Im damned if I can find anything in my collection of technical books which even has anything resembling it.

[Chesty Morgan]

It is almost definitely an apparent wind gauge (missing some markings). The reason the 30-0 sections are marked in single degrees is because you can't sail much closer to the wind than 20-25 degrees, depending on what you're sailing, so you have to be quite accurate with wind tracking.

[Chesty Morgan]

This is the closest image I can find, obviously in a more modern guise.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Datamarine-Wind-Link-Model-820-Remote-Navigation-Instrument-w-Cover-/141701150055

[clunckdriver]

Thank you Chesty, now I can sleep tonight!

[Wageslave]

I gather from morgan's response that he isn't a sailor, though he may be something of a comedian.

[Chesty Morgan]

In the presence of overwhelming refutation I concede defeat....oh, wait!

[clunckdriver]

OK Wageslave, if he is a comedian, and not a sailor, thus wrong in his answer, pray tell what the hell is it?

[Wageslave]

Clunk, you clearly haven't bothered to read my previous post, have you? Does someone providing a wrong answer automatically equip you with the correct one? If so it is you who can enlighten us as I have no such supernatural ability.

It is obviously not a wind instrument as they display through 360degrees, as does the one in Morgan's link that shows little resemblance to the indicator in question.

There is no indication it is "missing some markings" that I can see. I see nothing in it's condition to suggest the total obliteration of one whole section of the markings. imo the "missing" markings were never there as there is no indication to think otherwise.

The reason the 30-0 sections are marked in single degrees is because you can't sail much closer to the wind than 20-25 degrees,
This sentence fails in both sailing technical reality as well as logic. If you can't sail within 20 25 degrees (he! he! he! wanna job designing the world's highest performance sailing boat, cos none gets close to those figures?) then why annotate the dead zone so accurately when it doesn't need annotating at all?
What sort of sailing craft is this that can only use wind up to 60' off the bow on one tack but all the way to a dead run on the other? Some kind of asymmetric proa gunboat perhaps? Did the War Department/MOD ever have any of those?
What sort of military sailing vessel ever used WWII clockwork instruments for heaven's sake? Historically impossible, I'm afraid.

Shouldn't we try to keep this interesting discussion within the realms of reality??

[clunckdriver]

"Mushroom induced", as chief pilot for my corporation I find this sort of remark offensive to level at a pilot say the least, I sugest you withdraw such comments and try not to be so offensive on what should be an interesting and hopefully polite discusion. Now back to the question, WHAT IS IT? I just had a look at firing arc limiters on various WW2 aircraft but they used simple rods sticking up to prevent one shooting ones own aircraft down or interupter systems on the gun itself, I will be visiting an ex air gunner next week, he might know as he flew as crew on everthing from Hampdens to B17s, the B29 had an interesting system to prevent friendly fire damage but I dont recall anything like this on the B50/B29s when used as tankers, so it looks like it was most likely a shipboard thingy.

[Chesty Morgan]

I didn't say you couldn't sail within 20-25 degrees I said you can't sail much closer than that to the wind depending on what you're sailing. Perhaps the markings are used to high light the zone.

I'm pretty sure the instrument in question won't have been fitted to a high performance racing yacht either. :rolleyes:

There is quite obviously some sort of corrosion on the lower left quadrant not apparent on the other three quadrants.

then why annotate the dead zone so accurately when it doesn't need annotating at all?

Err, because it's a wind indicator and they display through 360 degrees. I think someone mentioned that earlier.

Naval artillery uses milli rads.

[Wageslave]

Morgan, there are precious few modern sailing boats that can sail inside 40 degrees off the wind so there is no point whatsoever annotating that area on a wind gauge as you simply can't go there. In any case wind indicators are so imprecise such accurate markings would be a bit superfluous. No military sailing vessel would ever have had such a gauge, there is almost a century between such technologies. Such a connection is, as I tried to allude, overly fanciful. How many more reasons do we need for this to be nothing to do with sailing?

I can see no evidence of such extraordinarily selective corrosion that might explain 2/3 of one side being surgically removed - corrosion just doesn't work like that and as it is presumably behind a glass face it probably hasn't been removed physically. As you say wind indicators operate through 360deg, this one appears to be asymmetric.

Millirads; granted, so it's probably not naval artillery.

Still none the wiser.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Given the +- 30 degree range is marked out in 1 degree divisions it suggests to me that whatever it was fitted to was likely to be frequently steady in this range. Plus the angle needed to be measured accurately and so was significant.

Carrier wind over deck indicator? I've spent a little time on a carrier bridge, and remember that there was such an instrument, just really can't remember what it looked like.

G

[PingDit]

My monies on something like a SARBE homer/DF.

[ICT_SLB]

PingDit,
SARBE Directional Indicators have 360 degree coverage. I think Genghis's idea of a Carrier Wind over Deck Indicator or Repeater has merit as the indication would be asymmetrical as the Island would make one side effectively unusable.

[aviate1138]

I was given this some years ago and told it belonged to a TSR2

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w382/bjdreamst/51287220-9b6c-4f27-a03e-a303c9c8de23_zpssqh8c8pk.png (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/bjdreamst/media/51287220-9b6c-4f27-a03e-a303c9c8de23_zpssqh8c8pk.png.html)

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w382/bjdreamst/Screen%20Shot%202015-11-23%20at%2007.14.20_zpsbf1zjjn7.png (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/bjdreamst/media/Screen%20Shot%202015-11-23%20at%2007.14.20_zpsbf1zjjn7.png.html)

[Stanwell]

They needed a rear-view in the TSR2? :confused:

[Chesty Morgan]

PingDit,
SARBE Directional Indicators have 360 degree coverage. I think Genghis's idea of a Carrier Wind over Deck Indicator or Repeater has merit as the indication would be asymmetrical as the Island would make one side effectively unusable.

That would depend where the wind vane was positioned.

[Wageslave]

But you'd want a wind over deck indicator to register through 360' and you'd position it at the masthead where it would be unobstructed.

The big clue is that missing sector. What and why?

What did ASDIC repeaters for depth charge/hedgehog attack look like? Were they ever fitted with one on each side of the hull allowing a bit of crossover to the "other" side? Then 30' either side of dead would need to be accurately known for running in, but not to more than a couple of degrees and other sectors to within 10 would be fine to allow you to fire abeam.

[OzBob]

The instrument is Naval, not Aeronautical and probably had an exact name at the time, but it's function is that of an azimuth ring, being part of the compass mounted in the binnacle and/or the bridge wings. Could be called azimuth ring or circle, pelorus.
That model , with the Selsyn connections would be a repeater from the main instrument, acting synchronously from the main drive.
The reason for the additional graduations (and it is not any more accurate within the -30 deg to +30deg span) is that this is the usual convention between normal to emergency Hard to Port/Starboard. The 30 to 180 degree markings spans simply complete the circle but for the helmsman the span of interest and response time would relate to the +/- 30 degrees of lubbers line.

These extracts from Admiralty Seamanship Manuals put it in perspective.
A Seamans Pocket Book June 1943 / HMSO / by Authority of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty / BR 827

"The amount of rudder carried by a ship is always turned over by the helmsman to his relief.
The man at the wheel may or may not be in a position to see where he is going. Some steering positions are situated below, under armour. In a small ship, however, he will usually be able to see ahead, and if in company with other ships may be ordered to "follow the next ahead". In this case he will steer in her wake, using as little wheel as possible and keeping her masts, etc, in line with his own ship's stem. He must at all times be ready at the order "Steady!" to disregard next ahead and steer by compass.
The helmsman always repeats all orders exactly as heard and reports when he has carried them out. The order "Hard a port" or "Hard a starboard" (i.e. 35 degrees of rudder) is only given in an emergency. The normal order would be "Port 30", etc. Never force the wheel over. If it jams or gets stiff inform the quartermaster, who will tell the officer of the watch. The helmsman's duty is to steer the ship under the supervision of the quartermaster. He is relieved every two hours, and on being relieved must inform his relief what the course is and what 'rudder' the ship is carrying. This two-hour turn of duty is called a 'trick.' "

The 1995 Admiralty version of Manual of Seamanship is somewhat updated but still refers;

"10020. Manual Steering Conning Orders
a. Wheel Orders
These are conning orders to put the rudder over in a given direction to a particular angle, eg 'STARBOARD TWENTY'. Wheel orders are given by the Captain or OOW when the ship wishes either to start altering to a given course, or to control the heading of a ship when no course has been ordered. On receiving a wheel order, the helmsman repeats the order and turns the handlebar or wheel in the required direction to the angle shown on the wheel indicator on the Quartermaster's Console. When this has been done, he reports that the amount of wheel ordered is 'on', eg TWENTY OF STARBOARD, ON'.
b. Altering Course.
To alter course by more than 20 deg, the Officer of the Watch starts by giving a wheel order, and follows this by telling the helmsman the new course to which the ship is turning, eg. 'STARBOARD TWENTY, ALTERING 340DEG'. The helmsman acknowledges by repeating the order and reports the rudder angle set, eg. 'STARBOARD TWENTY, ON'. As the lubbers line passes through a heading 15deg before the new course, the helmsman reports to the OOW, eg. 'PASSING 325'. From this point, the Officer of the Watch cons the ship on to the new course, first by easing the helm as she approaches it, eg. EASE TO TEN', and then by taking the swing off with opposite wheel, eg. 'PORT TEN'. Finally, when on or near the new heading shown by the lubbers line when the order 'STEADY' is given unless the Officer of the Watch gives him another course to it to steer, eg. "STEER 342 DEGREES'.
c. Small Alterations of Course
When making a small alteration of course up to 10deg, the OOW will give a wheel order followed by the course required to steer, eg. 'STARBOARD FIFTEEN, STEER 312 DEGREES'. The helmsman repeats this, brings the ship to the course ordered and, when steady on the new course, reports: eg. 'COURSE 312 DEGREES'. "

[Wageslave]

I'm afraid I can't see how OzBob's explanation has anything to do with the item.

A compass repeater or a pelorus (totally different instruments) both need to cover the whole 360 degrees and would be graduated in degrees all the way around, they'd be useless with less accurate reading possible.

Quite how those helmsman's orders and procedures link to the item is beyond me, I can see no correlation at all and least of all how applying 20 or 30 degrees of rudder relates to graduations on a compass repeater.

Any more ideas?

[Kitbag]

We've had front and rear views, is there anything useful around the 'barrel' of the unit?

[Herod]

From what little I can find reference wind indicators on carriers, could it be a repeater from Flyco to the deck, perhaps to the batsman?

[OzBob]

Wageslave,
This instrument is not connected to a compass. It is a separate instrument, could be located within the instrument binnacle. It allows the helmsman to steer under orders from the Captain without any compass. Think of it as a rudder indicator.
This one is a repeater, could be located below or on the bridge wings and can work without a compass in sight.

The descriptions are from the Admiralty Manuals of Seamanship - not my words.

[ICT_SLB]

I still like the idea that it is a Wind Over Deck Indicator or Repeater. From a user's point of view, you would want to know that the ship was steaming into wind in a direction that was useable by the pilots. Thus the Island would have to be taken into account in any display as any wind in a direction that would take you into it would, by definition, be useless. Wind Over Deck is a relative measurement - so any instrument would require, at a minimum, ship's heading & speed as well as wind speed & direction. On a modern ship these might all be derived inertially but in WW2 you would need individual sensors for all four and then combine them through a summing circuit. The directional sensors would be 360 degrees but the combination as displayed would only be useful in sectors where aircraft could land or takeoff - hence the asymetric presentation.

[Stanwell]

I think you might be reading a bit too much into it, ICT.

As a former mariner (merchant, not naval), I must admit I'd not previously encountered such an instrument.

Like most who've been following this thread, I too, have been intrigued by the possibilities.
A Wind-over-Deck indicator is high up there on the list, but OzBob's post, citing the Admiralty Manuals, has tentatively won my vote.
The apparent asymmetry still has me scratching my head, though.

No doubt, someone will be along soon with the definitive answer (including the name of manufacturer - and date) so that we can sleep at night.

[Wageslave]

A wind instrument makes no sense because of the missing sector. You need to know it all the way around the compass especially on a carrier where you have to turn into it - how do you do that if you can't see it in a certain sector? No, it isn't that. Arguing that the dead sector is because of the island makes no sense because the island is on the stbd side, not port. You can't "use" wind from astern on carrier air ops either so why would it be calibrated all the way to astern on one side and not the other? You can't "use" the wind 40' either side of dead ahead in a sailing boat but the wind instrument still shows it because you still need to know it.
All the rudder position indicators I've seen have been clearly annotated as such and only range 30' or so either side of ahead. No rudder can turn 180', so why annotate it?
It could indicate logically as a repeater for a rotating power-pod type thruster but they're far too modern for this instrument, aren't they? Even so a rotating thruster is a bit handicapped of it has such a large dead sector on one side.

[682al]

It's an Azimuth indicator for a Leigh Light. The arc of movement suggests it would be for a light installed on the starboard wing, e.g. Catalina.

[Above The Clouds]

682al
It's an Azimuth indicator for a Leigh Light. The arc of movement suggests it would be for a light installed on the starboard wing, e.g. Catalina.

That sounds good to me especially given its range of movement highlighted below in bold would make a perfect match.

Anti-submarine operations - The Leigh Light. | Military History Forum (http://www.militarian.com/threads/anti-submarine-operations-the-leigh-light.5465/)


THE LEIGH LIGHT FOR NIGHT ANTI-SUBMARINE OPERATIONS

The Leigh Light was a carbon arc searchlight carried on an aircraft and used in conjunction with A.S.V. to illuminate surfaced submarines at night. The searchlight operator was situated in the nose of the aircraft from where he could control the searchlight beam in both elevation and azimuth. Indicators were fitted which showed the direction in which the beam would shine. The operator was thus able to train the searchlight in approximately the right direction and distance before the light was exposed. A lens giving a spread of 10° in either a horizontal or vertical plane was provided which made search¬ing for the target easier, but some expert operators prefer to use the light without the lens. The maximum effective range in ordinary -weather was about two miles.

The arc lamp was fully automatic in operation, the rate of feed of the Carbons being automatically controlled. Power for the arc, which ran at 120 to 150 amperes, was obtained from seven 12 volt 40 ampere hour type D accumula¬tors and a-trickle charge fitment -would maintain them fully charged provided the arc was not run for more than three half minute periods per hour. Fully charged accumulators \?would maintain the arc for about six minutes without re¬charging.-

There were two types of Leigh Light in service:-

(1) The Turret type, fitted on Wellington aircraft; in this a 24 inch
searchlight was mounted in a retractable under-turret and the controls were
hydraulic. The maximum beam intensity was 50 million candles without the
. Spreading lens and about 20 million candles with the lens. Total weight of the installation was 1,100 Ibs.

(2) The Nacelle type, fitted on Catalina’s and Liberators; in this a 20
inch searchlight was mounted in a nacelle 32 inches in diameter slung from
the bomb lugs on the wing. The controls were electric and the maximum beam
intensity was 90 million candles, without the spreading lens and about 17
million with the lens. Total weight of the installation was 870 Ibs.

The trickle charging current for the accumulators was obtained from an engine-driven generator on the Wellingtons, windmill driven generator on Catalina’s and a motor generator set on Liberators.

The control system on the Wellington was similar to that used for turrets. The turret itself was rotated by a Vane oil motor for movement in azimuth and the projector was moved by a ram inside the turret for movement in elevation.
The maximum speed of rotation when the control column was turned to the limit was 40 degrees per second, the limits of movement were 60 degrees to Port and 180 degrees to Starboard.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38428747/Drift%20Inst.JPG