CPL/MEIR in NZ £12,700 too good to be true?

[Rexam]

International Aviation Academy of New Zealand (www.flighttraining.co.nz) are offering CPL/MEIR for NZ$44,000 all in, this is only £12,700.

Are there any major problems getting NZ licences converted to JAA.

Has anyone trained out in New Zealand.

I plan to spend 2 years there from September.

All advice/experiences welcome.

Would a New Zealand Instructors rating have any relevance in the UK as this is available for a further £4000?

[FLY BY NIGHT]

I believe this is the school in Hastings where I did my PPL. I had no problems with the outfit, and its a super place to fly. However anything beyond PPL. will not convert to a JAA. licence. My advice would be to go there and do a PPL. and plenty of hours including multi. Then return to the Uk. and do battle with the JAA. system. That is of course if you don't have the right to work out there.

[slartybartfast]

I was working out there for the military for a few years, whilst over there I tried to get my UK civil quals recognised by the NZCAA and largely they don't. Similarly the CAA/JAA will obviously recognise hours flown out there, but any of the exams are a bit of a waste of effort, as they have to be repeated.
Sadly its the UKCAA's fault - they consider NZ to be third world, when actually they are very,very professional and far more forward thinking than the dinosaur which is the CAA over here in the UK.

GO anyway - its a great place!

[rolling circle]

Are there any major problems getting NZ licences converted to JAA. Yes - you can't do it. You will have to pass all the JAA ground exams, the CPL Skill Test (after training at the discretion of the Head of Training) and the IR Skill Test (after a mandatory 50 hour course of training).

Would a New Zealand Instructors rating have any relevance in the UK None whatsoever - you'll still have to do a FI course and pass the flight and ground tests and you then only get a FI(Restricted) rating.

Actually it's not the UK CAA's fault. Put the blame firmly where it rightly belongs - with the JAA bureaucrats, who make the stupid rules, and that bumbling oaf Prescott who insists that the UK CAA implements them in full. france, meanwhile, implements those parts which suit her and ignores those parts which don't. A truly marvellous thing, this harmonisation.

[Rexam]

If not all JAA countries have implemented the rules in full, are there any of these countries which have an easier route to conversion to a JAA licence from either NZ or FAA?

If so, once you have a JAA licence from any member country, does this then carry full equivalence in the UK.

Am I clutching at straws, or should I just bite the bullet, sell up and train in the UK.

[TooHotToFly]

RC - doesn't a foreign FI rating exempt you from the full JAA course, but you must do a minimum of 15 hours flight training and 30 hours groundschool (and the tests)? Even if that is the case, unless you're planning to instruct over there it 's cheaper to do it here.

[Raw Data]

I was told (by the CAA) that in order to convert my NZ instructors rating to a UK/JAR-FCL one, I had to "undergo a course of training, the content and length of which is at the discretion of the instructor".

Similarly, some folk with significant commerical experience (ie thousands of jet hours) have been granted exam exemptions in the UK.

Even if you can't convert the licences, the flying there is cheap and the weather a lot more reliable- ideal place to build hours.

[The flying gunman]

BEWARE!!
foreign ICAO IR is worth nothing in JAA now.As of 30/01/2001 the holder of an icao IR must conduct a FULL course of approved IR training and the test to be issued with a JAA IR.The only exemptionis if you have something like 3000hrs 500 on jets.
This is absolutely disgusting..there was no warning from the CAA/JAA that this was going to happen. I almost gave up my job and went to South Africa for 7 months to do my ME/IR which would have been worth nothing here. I feel very sorry for the people who are doing this at the moment.If not a criminal deception by the CAA then surley a moral one. I thought a lot of these people were aviators..I can think of plenty of other names for them at present.
While I am in full flow....Beware the 12 hrs credit for the JAA IR if you hold an IMC.This only applies if you hold a UK/CAA PPL not a JAA PPL when the IMC counts for no credit!(Good prep though).Again this is something that the CAA do not make clear. If i may be permitted to qoute Clive Hughes it appears that the British pilot is being legislated out of the market and the only way to acheive is wealth not talent!!.Here endeth the lesson
.PS you also have to pass all the JAA theory exams as well before your IR
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He who smiles when the sh** hits the fan has found someone else to blame!

[This message has been edited by The flying gunman (edited 28 February 2001).]

[Artificial Horizon]

I wouldn't actually bother doing any professional flying out there as the conversion is going to cost you way to much. I have just been through the conversion from New Zealand licences and it really is a case of retraining rather than a "conversion". You have to do all of the ground exams again, then you will get a dispensation on the CPL training, but as stated above will have to do the FULL IR at a cost of around £10,000. So if you are going to be in NZ and have the time do some recreational flying for the experience and some hour building for the price, but I wouldn't suggest going for the IR or Instructors rating as you end up doing it all again http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[rolling circle]

Rexam - The UK is the most lenient country when it comes to conversion of non-JAA licences and training outside JAA member states. If it were up to france, for example, JAA licences issued by the UK based on training conducted in non-JAA member states would not be recognised by the rest of the JAA. There is no chance that you will get an easier ride anywhere else in the JAA.

THTF/Raw Data - You're quite right, training for the FI rating is at the discretion of the Head of Training of the organisation concerned. However, you still have to do enough to pass the flight and ground tests, and you still end up with only a restricted rating, no matter how much experience you have.

Exam exemptions used to be given against the UK national ATPL for suitably experienced ICAO ATPL holders. That is not possible in the case of the JAA ATPL - A 747 Captain with 15,000 hours still has to pass all of the ground exams.

flying gunman - There was no warning to the CAA that this was going to happen so they can hardly be blamed for not warning anyone else. I agree that the CAA are, in general, a bunch of incompetent bureaucrats but, in fairness, all this vitriol should be directed to the JAA where it belongs.

As to the credit for IMC holders - the following is from the latest policy update, dated 30/01/2001, on the FCL website:

Holders of JAR-FCL licences (including the JAR-FCL CPL (Restricted)), may
not benefit from the 12 hours credit based on the IMC rating, but a JAR-FCL
CPL holder would be eligible for the 5 hour reduction in accordance
with Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.205.

Seems clear enough to me.

[Hot&Heavy]

Sit down with a pen & paper. Work out:

(a) How much will it cost to go from zero to frozen JAA ATPL, training in the UK?

(b) How much will it cost to get NZ CPL/MEIR and then return to UK to 'convert'?

If (b) is less than (a) then wahey, have a nice holiday in NZ.

Flight training is roughly a third to a half of the cost compared to the UK, even after you take into account the exchange rate. £4000 is way too much for an instructor rating - are you sure it's not NZ$4000? I did mine about 6 years ago for approx $5000.

With the addition of the full IR course in ICAO to JAR-FCL conversion, an option is that you may want to find a school out there who will do just the CPL & instructors rating, then after conversion to JAR CPL & FI, do the IR here in the UK.

Also take into account that your living expenses will be next to nothing compared to the UK also while training, you could do worse than start your flight training there.

Hope that helps, H&H

[Raw Data]

The most stupid aspect of all this is that at least when I did mine, the NZ IR test was far harder and more involved than the UK one- I did DME arcs, enroute and terminal holds, and a VOR approach as well. Why the CAA insist on not recognising licences from countries like NZ is completely beyond me. The NZ system has always been based on the British one- when PPSC started seling their books in NZ for the NZ exams, all they had to change was the covers, and some details in the Met book (they didn't bother with Law). The syllabus was identical.

This whole business of recognition is totally out of order.

[Flying Kiwi]

I'm caught in the middle at the moment. Most of the way through the first phase at OATS (distance learning). Started with the understanding the IR training was at the discretion of the CFI. Now with having to do the "full approved course" it will add another 5-8000 stg to my costs. Thats alot of pinger when you are paying for it in NZ pesos. An extra NZ$16-26000!

Apparently OATS are lobbying the UK CAA to give us poor souls who started the course before the new ruling a dispensation of some sort. I'm not holding my breath.

Artificial Horizon, how did you find the conversion process? Exams, flight tests etc. Would appreciate any info that may be of assistance to my endeavours. Email me if you'd like at [email protected] or maybe a further post here.

Cheers all.



[This message has been edited by Flying Kiwi (edited 28 February 2001).]

[TooHotToFly]

I'd be interested to know exactly how hard OATS are trying to get a dispensation for students who are in the process of converting. After all, the new ruling means more money for them. I wonder if its just a line they're spinning.

[The flying gunman]

Circle,
yep the bit about the CPL is clear and hasnt changed..my point is for JAA PPL holders...you do not get the 12 hrs exemption if you have IMC from the approved IR course...A lot of dosh

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He who smiles when the sh** hits the fan has found someone else to blame!

[Stonebird]

There´s another thread on Rumours & News about this.

Raw Data - agree - when I did my IR in South Africa, we not only did VOR approaches & holds but NDB ones as well which are tougher.
It seems to be a money making scam by the flight schools.

France has decided to behave like that, and the UK is allowing foreign training and home examinations, and I hear now in Denmark you don´t have to redo the IR...how long is it before someone takes the whole JAA mess to the European court and has it binned?

How is it an improvement on the older licences anyway? Airlines have been flying for decades on the old system.

Is this socialism at work?