How reliable was the Avro York

[VictorGolf]

I've just been re-reading David Hedges' book "The Eagle Years". Reference is made to a series of long distance charters with the Yorks in the early 1950s and I just wondered how well the Yorks performed on these routes. Presumably Eagle didn't have servicing facilities at all the stops such as Bahrain, Karachi, Rangoon and so on. Did they rely on an RAF presence at these places or were the Merlins bombproof after so many hours use in the Lancaster? A pal of mine's father used to work on the LAC Yorks at Squires Gate (Blackpool) and didn't much enjoy it if I remember correctly.

[Stanwell]

I do remember reading somewhere that they used a particular mark of Merlin (can't remember which*) that was optimised for transport use.
Argonauts and Tudors used a development of that engine (the 620 series).

*edit: Possibly the Mk24.
.

[ericferret]

I seem to remember an article in Aeroplane monthly about transatlantic flights after the war with Lancastrians. Apparently aircraft landing with two or three engines operating were not uncommon. This would suggest that reliability was not great.

[DaveReidUK]

Alec Lumsden's excellent book lists, variously, the Merlin 22, 24, 500, 501 and 502 used on the York I.

[philbky]

I seem to remember an article in Aeroplane monthly about transatlantic flights after the war with Lancastrians. Apparently aircraft landing with two or three engines operating were not uncommon. This would suggest that reliability was not great.

Reciprocating engines, be they in line or radial, were prone to failure when in use for hours on end . The range of problems was legion and started to appear with frequency during the longer range bombing trips and transatlantic deliveries during WW2. Things had improved, barely, by the time the last big piston airliners rolled off the line in the late 1950s. On the Atlantic, Prestwick, Shannon, Goose and Gander saw regular three engined landings until well into the 1960s and there were some engine failure hull and life losses over water around the world where more than one engine failed or prop(s) had run away. The Lancastrian and York were by no means exceptional in this regard.

[Fareastdriver]

My father was on 202 Sqn. flying met Halifaxs in 1947-1950. The job were the Bismuth trips where they flew a pattern around the North and East Atlantic taking weather observations. Aircraft returning on three engines after a eight or nine hour Bismuth trip was normal.

In 1963 when the Victors from Honington reinforced Singapore during the Indonesian Confrontation a York (Dan Air?) arrived to take Victor spares out. In the cabin they had a 44 gall. drum of engine oil which was to keep them going until they reached Singapore.

[ZeBedie]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I was told the the Beverley had an oil consumption of 20 gph!

[seacue]

My boss rented a house on Cape Anne - NE of Boston, Mass.- either during the summer of 1952 or 1953. He said that it wasn't unusual to see transatlantic 'planes descending for Boston with one engine stopped. I guess these were the ones which made it beyond Goose or Gander. An advantage of getting to Boston was that there was a lot of domestic air service for the pax to continue their voyage.

[oldpax]

There was a Dan Dare York that came into Ksar and it would be there for 2/3 days undergoing engine repairs!I did notice a few missing Zeus fasteners where wire locking was used instead!!

[reynoldsno1]

My Dad was on 242 Sqn c. 1946-1947 and completed a number of trooping flights on Yorks, mainly between Lyneham and India though some went on to Singapore. His log book & letters home to Mum (before I was born)indicate that some of these trips were somewhat tortuous - "...awaiting spares".

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I was told the the Beverley had an oil consumption of 20 gph!

Hence the saying "you can't get lost in a Beverley. Just follow the oil slick home".

[ian16th]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I was told the the Beverley had an oil consumption of 20 gph!

I think it was closer to 1gph per engine, a total of 4gph.

If my fallible memory is correct, the tank carried 50 gallons.

[VictorGolf]

Thanks for the comments chaps.It would seem that reliability was a bit patchy. Looking at "Stanwell's" comment in post*2 I remember overhearing one of the engineers, who looks after some of the warbirds at Duxford, saying that the "transport" cylinder heads are the ones to go for on the Merlin. Presumably these are the ones used on the Argonaut and the Tudor.
Somewhat ironically there is a reference in the Eagle book to one of the Yorks taking an Hercules engine to Lisbon for one of the Aquila flying-boats that had gone "tech". Those were the days!

[Arclite01]

My Grandfather was in a crash which I believe to be a York in Ceylon in the late 1940's (Army returning to UK)

Not sure of the serial No or the date, not everyone survived.

Arc

[Herod]

18 March 1947: An RAF York crashed and burnt out near Negombo Town after departure from Negombo, Ceylon.

This is taken from Wiki. I don't have any more details, but I'm sure someone will be along with them.

[renfrew]

If they lasted from 1943-1964 they must have been fairly reliable.
Dan Air operated a BEA freight service out of Renfrew in 1959 and I can still remember the roar of those 4 Merlins.

[Old-Duffer]

The aircraft at Negombo was MW198 of 51 Sqn and there were 11 fatalities.

Four of the flight deck crew were amongst those killed, as were five civilians, another RAF officer and a 'Captain' what sort is unclear.

There is some suggestion that in addition to the No: 4 engine which failed, the No: 3 might have been feathered.

The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Stewart Anning DFC & Bar who flew with 617 Sqn and had put a 12000 lb into the Tirpitz and later did much the same to the Lutzow.

Old Duffer

[deltahot]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I was told the the Beverley had an oil consumption of 20 gph!

I was a passenger in a Beverley trainer out of Singapore up to Okinawa and Hong Kong way back in the early 60s, when I was flying helicopters in Malaya, and somewhere over a lot of water they shut down both engines on port side. Engineer disappeared into the wing, emerged after some time, and I'm sure some loss of height, before crew unfeathered and restarted both and we continued happily on our way. I gathered it was to top up oil ... is this feasible? Whatever, I was well impressed.

[ian16th]

I was a passenger in a Beverley trainer out of Singapore up to Okinawa and Hong Kong way back in the early 60s, when I was flying helicopters in Malaya, and somewhere over a lot of water they shut down both engines on port side. Engineer disappeared into the wing, emerged after some time, and I'm sure some loss of height, before crew unfeathered and restarted both and we continued happily on our way. I gathered it was to top up oil ... is this feasible? Whatever, I was well impressed. Engine oil pumping in the air was SOP for the Beverley. Though I never heard of the requirement to feather the engine.

It was done by means of a manual operated pump in 'the dog kennel', just aft of the flight deck.

Flt. Engineers that didn't top up in flight, were unpopular with groundcrew.

Standing upright was not possible in the kennel, so operating the pump in a crouched position was hard work.

[clunckdriver]

In the fifties we had an ex Transport Command pilot transfered to our squadron, his comment on the York which he flew in the UK after compleating a tour in Bomber Command was" the JU52 was a better three engined aircraft than the York", {having flown a JU52 around Europe after the war flying VIPs of some kind} I think his comment sums up the question asked by the first post!

[Airbanda]

My maternal Uncle, Sidney P Smith, flew on Yorks with 51 Sq from Waterbeach between May and December 1947. According to his logbook most trips were via Lineham (sic) to Changi with stops at Luqa, Fayid, Habaniya, Mauripur and Negombo and variations. Nothing in the log suggests he was personally involved in any engine failures or similar.

His RAF service was one of many things I was never able to have an adult conversation with him about; he died suddenly in 1983 at the age of 60. At the time I was in my early twenties and too busy chasing girls etc to be a devoted nephew, expecting that like his Mother and her brothers he'd make 80+.

I'd long assumed that his records were lost but after his widow (who remarried) and her second husband both died his logbook, dog tags, several manuals and some photographs were found and returned to myself and my sister.

[Fareastdriver]

" the JU52 was a better three engined aircraft than the York",

The only time I have flown a hot formation with a Tante Ju was in 1978 when an ex Spanish Air Force example was being flown from Spain to Biggin Hill. They were having a few problems; the port engine was back to idle and the nose engine was overheating. They were quite grateful to actually land at Biggin because there was a lot of money involved.

It now lives in Seff Efrica.

[deltahot]

Engine oil pumping in the air was SOP for the Beverley. Though I never heard of the requirement to feather the engine.

It was done by means of a manual operated pump in 'the dog kennel', just aft of the flight deck.



Ah thanks for that ian. Was the dog kennel in the wing root then?

[Private jet]

AFAIK the York was basically a Lancaster with a big "box" fuselage to carry cargo. The important thing in those days was that it had four engines and not just two...

[Stanwell]

A cargo-carrying box?
I'll have you know that, we in Oz, post-war, were proud to have a York as our Vice-Regal VIP aircraft.
Finished in all-over gleaming white and sumptuously fitted out on the inside, there was nothing to match it this side of the equator, I believe.
Special sound insulation had been installed, but I gather that it only reduced post-flight deafness from three days to one.
Were they any quieter on just three engines?

[BEagle]

The Avro York - once described by an American as "That three fin, four fan aloominum spam can"....

Cruel. But fair.

As for performance, around 800 ft/min rate of climb on 4 engines. Wasn't the base level of the London TMA designed to cater for a 'York on 3' departing London Airport?

[DaveReidUK]

The Avro York - once described by an American as "That three fin, four fan aloominum spam can"....

Before the Constellation came along, presumably. :O

[binbrook]

At Luqa in the 50s the dawn chorus was often a York spluttering into life to get away before the sun warmed things up.

[Cornish Jack]

Beverley in-flight oil replenishment - most definitely NO requirement to shut down engines!! The pump was, indeed, in the 'dog kennel' which was accessed via a small circular entrance in the rear bulkhead of the equipment bay behind the flight deck. There was four-way selector and a contents gauge with a manual pump handle. It was hard work ... the oil thickened after a few hours at 8-10k and, FEs being 'Johnny-come-latelys' on Bevs, the job was done by Siggies in the early days.
One little aside - on a long overseas with a skipper from my Valetta days, I was supervising a new guy and spent a lot of time 'minding the shop' in the right hand seat. Part way through one such, with the skipper on meal break, the co volunteered to 'top up'. and there were a few seconds of alarm as I watched the oil temps winding down as the COLD oil entered the system!

[Herod]

This is directly from someone who was an engine fitter on the York.

"Dennis said the engines were very reliable and almost 100%. He knew of no issue, during the Berlin airlift they set up a workshop in the hanger to make modifications on the engine to improve it but they never had a failure."

[WHBM]

Believe it or not, some major bases actually had lubricating oil bowsers in the 1950s !

The Merlin was probably the principal in-line engine through the prop era, most others favoured radials, the US especially but also Bristol Siddeley with the Hercules, Centaurus, etc. By the design of the radial, with the crankshaft in the centre and the pistons all around, it was just not possible to make it oil-tight as it expanded and cooled, and on the ground lube from the crankshaft would seep into the lower pistons, to be burnt off on startup, hence the (sometimes huge) smoke cloud. "LVPs for five minutes after starting".

The York was a favourite for a "rescue" aircraft for the major British airlines, BOAC especially, who kept a couple (at least) chartered from Skyways and others employed well into the Britannia and jet era of the early 1960s just ferrying large AOG components, principally engines, out to wherever they were grounded. They were actually based at BOAC's Heathrow maintenance area all ready to go wherever with whatever.

The last York in service was G-ANTK with Dan-Air, withdrawn in May 1964, the aircraft now in the museum at Duxford.

[JW411]

A friend of mine told me the other day that he lost an engine on a York just after take-off from Khartoum. They couldn't get above 300 feet but did manage a low level circuit and a successful landing.

[Warmtoast]

1953-1955 I was based at Biggin Hill and recall a RAF York used to visit occasionally, we were told it did practice runs in case the then prime minister Sir Winston Churchill (who lived locally to Biggin at Chartwell near Westerham) was taken ill whilst on one of his frequent trips to the south of France, in the even I don't think it was ever used for this purpose, but its arrival was of interest, but sadly didn't photograph it.

A bit here from Flight Magazine of 22 March 1957 about the last York in RAF service:

Last of the RAF Avro Yorks


Last of the R.A.F. Avro Yorks, ‘MW295 Ascalon II' returned a week ago to the United Kingdom from the F.E.A.F. communications squadron at Changi, Singapore, for disposal as surplus to R.A.F. requirements. It was named after the first production model York, LV633, which appeared in 1943 and was called Ascalon (the sword with which St. George slew the dragon) at the suggestion of W/Cdr. H. B. Collins, then c.o. of No. 24 Sqn. As a V.V.I.P. aircraft, Ascalon flew King George VI, Mr. Winston Churchill and many other wartime passengers. After the war, LV633 went to the Far East and was eventually replaced by Ascalon II, which was taken out to Singapore in 1954 by S/L. Douglas Boards, personal pilot to Air Marshal Sir Francis Fressanges, C-in-C. F.E.A.F. S/L. Boards speaks proudly of Ascalon II’s reliability; in his three years and 1,600 hours’ flying experience of it, the aircraft has only four times been delayed in take-off.

[skydiver69]

How unreliable was the York in comparison to the Lancaster, given their linked heritage and similar engines?

[Allan Lupton]

How unreliable was the York in comparison to the Lancaster, given their linked heritage and similar engines?
As I've pointed out elsewhere military utilisation, even in time of war, is a lot less than civil. Hence a level of unreliability that would be acceptable for a Lancaster flying one sector a day with a maintenance shop at the destination could be disastrous for a York flying several sectors a day.
e.g. compare Scampton-Berlin and back without landing once per night with
the Berlin Airlift duty Hamburg-Berlin Berlin-Hamburg several times a day

[FlightlessParrot]

How (un)reliable was the York compared with other transport aircraft of its era? I gather that shutting down one motor in flight was a pretty common event at that time. Was the York better or worse? Which is, perhaps, a question about the Merlin in civil use. The DC4/North Star might give a good comparison.

[evansb]

The Avro York was trusted to transport Winston Churchill to Canada for his visit in 1949.




A link to some history of Canadian operated Avro Yorks:

Warbird Information Exchange ? View topic - Avro Yorks in Canada (http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47760)

The harsh operating conditions of Canada took their toll on civilian Avro Yorks operated in the 1950s.


Here is a list of crashed Avro Yorks in Canada. (Note some crashes occurred on the same day, and one crash occurred within a one day of another crash).

2 February 1953: A Skyways York crashed into sea off Newfoundland (island), Canada after a SOS was called by the pilots. The wreck of the aircraft was never found; all 39 passengers and crew died.


11 April 1955: An Associated Airways York crashed on take off at Yellowknife, NWT, Canada.

12 April 1955: An Arctic Wings York was damaged beyond repair after hitting a snow bank at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, NWT, Canada.

26 May 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after hitting an obstacle on take off from Edmonton Municipal Airport, Alberta, Canada.

29 September 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after ditching in the Thoa River, 180 km north of Beaverlodge, SK, Canada.

24 January 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair during a forced landing at Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.

13 September 1956: A Pacific Western Airlines York was damaged beyond repair after an accident at Cape Perry, North West Territories, Canada.

13 September 1956: A Transair (Canada) York was damaged beyond repair after over-running the runway at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, Northwest Territories, Canada.

26 September 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair in a forced landing in Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.

8 January 1957: A Transair (Canada) York was destroyed by fire after crash landing on a lake near Rankin Inlet, NWT, Canada.

[BKS Air Transport]

SACSEA/Viceregal York MW102 was allocated to Lord Mountbatten during his time at South East Asia command, and afterwards when he was the last Viceroy. Negotiations around the independence/separation of India and Pakistan involved extensive travel, both within the region and to and from the UK. Lady Mountbatten and Pamela, his daughter, accompanied him on many of these trips, suggesting that he must have had a lot of confidence in the reliability and safety of the aircraft, as indeed, must those in London.


As an aside, I recall reading that he was always insistent on keeping the outside of the aircraft looking immaculate, and consequently after each trip, several men would be immediately sent out, cloths and cans of Brasso in hand, to get to work polishing. Rivet loss was common with this type of aircraft, and the constant polishing of the rivet heads just served to make matters worse, so another group would also have to be busy spotting and replacing all the lost rivets.

[Capot]

I spent as much time as I could at Lasham in 1958/9 learning to fly a glider (under Derek Piggott), and then working up to Silver C.

The smooth functioning of the gliding operation was interrupted at intervals by arrivals and departures of Dan Air Yorks. I cannot recall one arriving with all 4 engines running, although I suppose it could have happened. Sometimes there were only 2.

Departures after repair/maintenance were always exciting; usually two or three attempts were needed, separated by short hangar visits to rectify whatever had caused the take-off to be abandoned.

All the launching wires had to be cleared for these interruptions (2 winch, 1 tow-car), as well as any gliders parked too near the runway.

I really don't think you can use the words "reliable" and "York" in the same sentence.

[VictorGolf]

One of the joys of early retirement is finding the time to catch up on some reading. Thus in "Diamond Flight", the story of British Midland by Bill Gunston, there is an explanation of the problems found on the Merlin 724 used in the Derby Airways DC-4Ms. Apparently incorrect settings of rpm and manifold pressure for a given pressure altitude gave rise to burnt exhaust valves. This was exacerbated by the use of a detergent oil which put a sticky residue on the valve stems which prevented rotation so the exhaust flame always attacked the same area round the tulip head, literally burning away that portion.
As a result Derby Airways suffered a long series of inflight featherings and exploded exhaust systems. I can't imagine that the York wouldn't have had similar problems.

[WHBM]

As a result Derby Airways suffered a long series of inflight featherings and exploded exhaust systems.
One wonders why this was not an issue for BOAC, or the aircraft's intermediate operator, Overseas Airways, as they were 12 years old when Derby bought them. As with many large piston operators, how you handled them could be more important than the design.

[bean]

Quite simply,BOAC never used the type of oil that Derby used. Edited to say that in the book to which Victor Golf refers, Gunston admits i that for much of the early history of BMA he lifted large amounts from Captain B G Cramps book of 1979 which covers this in greater depth. Derby successfully sued the oil company concerned

[8igRob]

I realize that this is an old thread but I've just joined and found it. My father flew Yorks before during and after the airlift.
He flew them with 206 before the blockade, during the blockade he flew the record number of missions by any pilot of any nationality (404) sometimes 4 a day, and after the airlift he was posted to 59 sqn on the far east route again, before being selected for the B-29's
As you can see from the attachment record of service, he flew 2000 hours in them :)