SDSR rumours.

[OafOrfUxAche]

[QUOTE]Woodford must feel a bit sick. Last UK aerospace whole aircraft production capability closed for what - a 5 year payment holiday?[QUOTE]


Apart from Westland. And it doesn't matter how close the MRA4 was to completion if it was never going to meet airworthiness regulation, which seemed to be the elephant in the room five years ago.


[QUOTE]regarding where the 2 new Typhoon sqns will be based, would basing at Boscombe Down be a possibility? It's already down to be a QRA base should the situation require it and there is certainly an RAF FJ absence south of Lincolnshire! As the QRA requirements would imply, its got plenty of HAS', two huge runways and I'm presuming all the other infrastructure that would be required.[QUOTE]


Very unlikely. Every fleet has been rationalised into the fewest possible number of bases in recent years, therefore setting up the Typhoon shop at Boscombe for only 2 sqns would be a significant U-turn. Other problems include integrating permanent QRA into an R&D airfield and the distance to both ranges and likely targets.

[The_1]

The grass can always look greener.

Any salary increase has to be taken in the round - the complete package of housing, transport, medical, dental, job security, the responsibility, the chance of promotion, the fun, the recognition, the cameraderie, job satisfaction, chance to do AT and representative sport, the challenge, the access to top class gym facilities, and ultimately the feeling that once is doing something worthwhile for others etc when making comparisons

But as I was alluding to in my earlier post, the notion that the Armed Forces was more than just a typical civvie job seems to be being eroded deliberately. To what harm? and what needs to be done for most impact and to enable the SDSR equipment buys?

[Willard Whyte]

Any salary increase has to be taken in the round - the complete package of housing, transport, medical, dental, job security, the responsibility, the chance of promotion, the fun, the recognition, the cameraderie, job satisfaction, chance to do AT and representative sport, the challenge, the access to top class gym facilities, and ultimately the feeling that once is doing something worthwhile for others etc when making comparisons

I'll concede dental, but the rest? Nah.

[EGGP]

To what harm? and what needs to be done for most impact and to enable the SDSR equipment buys?

when 30%+ of DES have left on VERS.... could be interesting. DIO and DES as back room organisations rather than front line are likely to take a bigger slice of civilian cuts.DBS will be hived off except for NSV and Ilford Park Polish home I would guess.

[salad-dodger]

ok greener.

Any salary increase has to be taken in the round - the complete package of housing, transport, medical, dental, job security, the responsibility, the chance of promotion, the fun, the recognition, the cameraderie, job satisfaction, chance to do AT and representative sport, the challenge, the access to top class gym facilities, and ultimately the feeling that once is doing something worthwhile for others etc when making comparisons

But as I was alluding to in my earlier post, the notion that the Armed Forces was more than just a typical civvie job seems to be being eroded deliberately. To what harm? and what needs to be done for most impact and to enable the SDSR equipment buys?
Blimey, what planet are you living on. I haven't met anyone who has looked back after leaving.

S-D

[The_1]

haha. Each to their own eh :)?

[Bismark]

As far as I can see one of the Tranche 1 Sqns will be for RAFAT at Scampton, maybe both.

In fairness to today's announcements we need to see the detail of the spending round out of MOD. Does the froth hide an ugly side of cuts to other capability? For example where does the manpower come from to man 2xTyphoon Sqns + 9 MPA Sqn, plus run on of Shadow, C130J etc.

[Bigbux]

I would imagine this recognition of the fact that the A-400M won't be qualified to carry out the full range of SF duties till then - and the enhanced support and duties/hours the C-130 force will be obliged to support in the meantime.

A-400M is a bit big for tactical SF Ops anyway. Not saying C-130 is expendable rather than strategic, but........ :hmm:

Nonsense...a bit of scrim over the top and you could use the anchors from redundant frigates to hoof out the back for a quick stop.

[Bigbux]

Contracting out what is after all 737 maintenance should be fairly straight forward once a suitable Safety Case has been prepared and compliance monitoring applied.

Absolutely - it will be interesting to see whether the RAF is able to tap into the rather healthy market of 737 servicing - or whether the self-emptying cargo hold will present a barrier to cheaper maintenance.

[Easy Street]

Defence Review: Fighting old battles? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34901846)

Despite the commitment to a new class of general purpose frigate (the Type 26), confirmed today, the Royal Navy would also struggle to assemble enough escorts for its new carriers to protect them from submarine attack. The new carriers, rather, can now be seen clearly as floating runways to strike non-state enemies or mid-sized military powers (such as Libya in 2011 or Syria, nearly, in 2013), or for other uses such as flying helicopters to evacuate British nationals or to deliver disaster relief. They will have to operate relatively close to shore, because of the limited range of the F35 and helicopters that will be embarked, and doing that against a major military power would be too risky with the level of protection the Royal Navy could give them: no admiral will want to risk the loss of a ship named HMS Queen Elizabeth.

That won't go down well in Portsmouth. Where's the 'crying with laughter' emoticon when you need it?

[Heathrow Harry]

I'll bet once the oil starts flowing in the Falklands (say early 2020's) there will be 8 Tranche One Typhoons down there - lots of space to fly in with a population who don't moan about noise and I'm sure will be happy to "make an increased contribution" to costs

[WhiteOvies]

Easy,

The Navy has the escorts it needs for a single Task Group with Type 45s already practicing the future role as part of USN CVN task groups. For a single task group, at any one time, the RN has the Type 45s, still very capable Type 23s and Astute class boats plus the support ships being built overseas. Not to mention most Task Groups are multi-national these days anyways, hence why we practice with allied navies so much during Joint Warrior and Cougar exercises/deployments. The BBC does not really know what it's talking about in this instance and there's no point stirring up the inter-service rivalries after the SDSR.

Speaking of what I know, the Fleet Air Arm is not badly off manning wise compared to some and it has been planning the required personnel to man F-35 properly, both air and ground crew, for some time. Utilising the strong links with the USN to train aircrew, engineers and deck handlers seems, so far, to have worked well. The FAA manning system also seems to actually look ahead and takes significantly beter care of it's personnel compared to the deskies at High Wycombe.

I would personally suggest 892 NAS for the next dark blue F-35 squadron. The badge has a lightning bolt and the Motto "Strike Unseen", which seems rather appropriate, and it has the fixed wing (F-4), big deck carrier heritage.

[claron]

2 x Typhoon squadrons.

Any clues or a good guess as to which 2 squadrons?

[Martin the Martian]

19 and 43, I reckon. Unless they want to use another Tornado numberplate. What will be more interesting is which numberplate will be used for the Poseidon squadron; it should be an ex-MR unit, but I think it will more likely be 9 or 12.

[Random Bloke]

The maritime squadrons 201 or 120 would be sensible. 201 because it was 1 Sqn RNAS and became 201 on 1 Apr 1918 or 120 because of its special circumstances in the award of its standard.

I've reformed a couple of units in the past and by far the hardest and most contentious thing was the number plates because everyone seems to have a vested interest and everyone has an opinion. Everyone's opinion is the correct one and causes hours of nugatory staff work.

[teeteringhead]

Everyone's opinion is the correct one and causes hours of nugatory staff work. Indeed so Random.

One was in the RAF's Odd Job Department in the Ministry when an earlier "Numberplate Fest" was going on (was it "Front Line First"? must have been mid-90s ish) and a guy I shared an office with was running with the numberplate sketch. Oy Vay! the problems he had with VSOs trying to keep "their" numbers.

It got to playing Top Trumps with numbers of VCs and DFCs at one stage........ Mate allegedly said to one VSO:

"Sir, the only way we can keep xyz Sqn numberplate is if one of the essential criteria is having been commanded by a bloke called ........... (insert name of VSO as required!)"!

It didn't work for that VSO, fine chap though he was............

[Cows getting bigger]

.... which sorts of suggests that the best thing is a new sqn number?

[teeteringhead]

..... well the 900 series numbers were used for Barrage Balloon Squadrons, perhaps we could resurrect (re-inflate?) some of those. ;)

[Heathrow Harry]

renumber the whole lot from 1-20

I'm sure the Russians realised long ago that we don't really have 800+ squadrons.....................

[Heathrow Harry]

One thing that seems to have slipped through the comments is that the

Vanguard SSBN's are going to be serving a lot longer....... almost as long as the US boats..............

[Bigbux]

I'll bet once the oil starts flowing in the Falklands (say early 2020's) there will be 8 Tranche One Typhoons down there - lots of space to fly in with a population who don't moan about noise and I'm sure will be happy to "make an increased contribution" to costs

Who knows, maybe with new management in Argentina the FIG will be on trading terms with their neighbour. Potential £50m per annum saving?

[Haart]

I' d like to think the 2 additional Typhoon sqns would be 43 & 111, located at the obvious Scottish airfield...

[Could be the last?]

Did anyone see this slip through??


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-34909649

HMS Ocean to be scrapped in 2019 - After a recent £65mil refit. Guess it will be replaced with the QE class helicopter carrier.............

[ORAC]

Slipped through? Always the planned retirement date and confirmed as long ago as last April*. With the tight manpower constraints in the RN I would presume the crew are planned and essential to transfer across and man the QE and PoW.



* David Cameron's Tories' plan to axe flagship helicopter carrier in savage cuts - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-camerons-tories-plan-axe-5503949)

[teeteringhead]

renumber the whole lot from 1-20 Fi on you Harry.

You'll be suggesting next that the infantry don't need 19 different cap badges ......! ;)

[Not_a_boffin]

2 x Typhoon squadrons.

Any clues or a good guess as to which 2 squadrons?

Course you could always use an 800 series numberplate - 800/801/892 for example. Big dark blue manning component. Ready for when the squadrons transition to F35 and spend a significant period of time embarked........

[Buster15]

You mention Tornado GR4 not being drawn down as planned. Has there been anything announced on this. I have read the SDSR report and all I could find was something along the lines..Tornado will continue to operate until replaced by Typhoon...
as someone who has been involved with this wonderful aircraft for some time, I would appreciate any relating information other than the planned retirement in 2019.

[Martin the Martian]

Looking through Jeff Jefford's book on RAF Squadrons it is noticeable that for some reason the Air Ministry missed out No.188 Squadron during the Second World War. Perhaps this could be a good time.

Now, what shall we use as the motto?

[Heathrow Harry]

Teetering - that's a different argument....

TBH I can just about (at a stretch) understand that politicians want to keep the late Victorian County regiments inteh Army (tho' I doubt their relevance anymore) but no-one ever rolled up to the RAF to join XYZ Squadron

Squadron identification is post posting and seems to grow the longer people have been away from them... especially amonst VSO's.... (ducks) ;);)

[Haart]

We know that RAF Scampton effectively serves no purpose, but hasn't anyone told the local MP not to draw advertise the fact! :ugh:


Lincolnshire MP calls for 'home of the RAF' to have more staff and resources - The Lincolnite (http://thelincolnite.co.uk/2015/11/lincolnshire-mp-calls-for-home-of-the-raf-to-have-more-staff-and-resources/)

[Lima Juliet]

188 Sqn motto? unum invalidi et duos dominarum...

...translates to "one skinny and two fat ladies"...

Sounds like an Air Eng's wet dream! :E

[Lima Juliet]

re: Tornado retirement:

3rd Sqn to run on until 2018
Last 2 Sqns to close in 2019

That's on current plans and with the P3E package being rolled out and Combat Ready on a Typhoon Sqn. I guess we'll wait and see.

The other Tornado operators will run the PA200 until 2025, so there will still be Tonkas flying abroad.

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Looking through Jeff Jefford's book on RAF Squadrons it is noticeable that for some reason the Air Ministry missed out No.188 Squadron during the Second World War. Perhaps this could be a good time.

Now, what shall we use as the motto?

188 Sqn featured in the BoB film, probably to avoid upsetting every real Sqn. According to MOD the Sqn indeed existed. JJ has repeated the error of an earlier work in the 60s.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/188squadron.cfm

It also featured as a Lancaster Sqn in Reaching for the Stars.

[ORAC]

Looking through Jeff Jefford's book on RAF Squadrons it is noticeable that for some reason the Air Ministry missed out No.188 Squadron during the Second World War. :confused::confused:


https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/18693-no-188-squadron-royal-air-force-the-lucky-dogs/

......
No. 188 Squadron was reformed on the 5th April, 1939, and equipped with the Hawker Hurricane Mk. I. They were based at Shoreham Airfield, West Sussex on the South Coast of England. When war broke out two flights were dispatched to France to serve alongside the British Expeditionary Force. They fought through the Battle of France until they were withdrawn to their homebase of Shoreham in late May 1940. Here they were reequipped recieved replacement pilots after their losses in France - interestingly the replcaement pilots were drawn from Norweigian & Swedish aviators; the former exiles from their home country, the latter volunteers who had come to Britain to fight.

From 10th July 1940 to 31st October 1940 they fought steadfastly through what was to become known as the Battle of Britain. The squadron accounted for no less than 44 victories during the battle, most of which were Heinkel He-111's, but they also suffered themselves. During the entire Battle they lost eight aircraft destroyed and five pilots killed, three of those planes and two of the pilots were lost on 'The Hardest Day', 18th August 1940.

From 1941-1943 the squadron fought in North Africa, having been equipped with the Mk. IIB (Trop). During the invasion of Italy they were reequipped with the Spitfire Mk. IXB until they returned to England in May 1944. They were part of the Allied air support for the Normandy Landings and from July 1944 - May 1945 they often flew escort for Allied bombers.

No. 188 Squadron was disbanded in March 1946.

[Courtney Mil]

Interesting to observe, once again, the reactions here to a SDSR announcement which is so strong on equipment and so weak on personnel issues. Like the MPA/P-8 thread, folk seem to be more concerned which sqn number plates will be painted on the hardware and whether they will be light or dark blue than the huge operational and manning debate that will follow.

One thing that is correctly stated here is that number plates result from VSOs' personal wishes and has nothing to do in any rules of sqn seniority.

To my mind, the hardware will arrive over time and there are going to be some very busy people in Air Command getting the sites ready with all the ground equipment, supplies/spares, expendibles, vehicles, airframe allocations, servicing scheduling, electronic and software support, accommodation, working and briefing facilities, test and calibration equipment.... And on and on. Big work ahead, which I think will be both challenging and interesting.

Then the job I wouldn't want - getting the manning right within the limitations of current numbers, Ts & Cs and a massively dismantled training system. Pre-SDSR I could kind of see where the numbers were going to come from as, for example, Tranche 1 Typhoons are replaced by later ones and as Tornado phases out and F-35 starts to build. I think that would probably have been tight. Now add the extra aircraft (Typhoon, F-35, P-8, C-130 extension, F-35 roll-out) and 300 extra people with an acceptance that folk won't stay as long and I can't see how this is going to work. The only hope is that this plan is one that will take a very long time to play out.

Admittedly, I haven't really sat down and worked out what the airframe numbers will be year by year, but it all looks like a bit of a steep climb from where we are.

But I'm still delighted for the UK's military aviation community to read the SDSR document (apart from some of the meaningless political aspiration sections).

Sorry I've rambled on a bit.

[Archimedes]

:confused::confused:


https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/18693-no-188-squadron-royal-air-force-the-lucky-dogs/

......
No. 188 Squadron was reformed on the 5th April, 1939, and equipped with the Hawker Hurricane Mk. I. They were based at Shoreham Airfield, West Sussex on the South Coast of England. When war broke out two flights were dispatched to France to serve alongside the British Expeditionary Force. They fought through the Battle of France until they were withdrawn to their homebase of Shoreham in late May 1940. Here they were reequipped recieved replacement pilots after their losses in France - interestingly the replcaement pilots were drawn from Norweigian & Swedish aviators; the former exiles from their home country, the latter volunteers who had come to Britain to fight.

From 10th July 1940 to 31st October 1940 they fought steadfastly through what was to become known as the Battle of Britain. The squadron accounted for no less than 44 victories during the battle, most of which were Heinkel He-111's, but they also suffered themselves. During the entire Battle they lost eight aircraft destroyed and five pilots killed, three of those planes and two of the pilots were lost on 'The Hardest Day', 18th August 1940.

From 1941-1943 the squadron fought in North Africa, having been equipped with the Mk. IIB (Trop). During the invasion of Italy they were reequipped with the Spitfire Mk. IXB until they returned to England in May 1944. They were part of the Allied air support for the Normandy Landings and from July 1944 - May 1945 they often flew escort for Allied bombers.

No. 188 Squadron was disbanded in March 1946.


At the risk of succumbing to a wind -up: it's a back story for an online air combat game. Look at the badge in the top right hand corner of the first post and briefly wonder how that could ever have got through the College of Heralds - recalling in the process that 617 was forced to change its motto from the original choice of 'Apres Nous Le Deluge' at the behest of the College, and the college objected to the current motto as well, as it was a derivation of the original and thus from a dubious Louis XV era comment by Madame de Pompadour.

It was only because George VI had said what a splendid choice 'Apres Moi Le Deluge' was that the squadron was able to note that King trumps Herald and they got their preferred motto...

The less said about the original 602 Squadron badge (A winged bowler hat and the motto 'Gentlemen's Bomber Squadron') the better....

[MACH2NUMBER]

I seem to recall, when working as a minion on the 6th floor of MOD, that a very senior officer said, in exasperation, "Why don't we just throw a dart into a dartboard and accept the result, it will save a lot of time". This was in response to a very similar situation.

[thunderbird7]

Come on Courtney! Bantering about which Squadron is best, is what service life is/was all about! What else did we all waffle on about in the crewrooms for years ;)

What bugs me more is the way the government presents all these decisions as great strategic moves, rather than admitting they made some bloody awful decisions last time round because they are driven by accountants and don't actually understand what they are dealing with.

[Guernsey Girl II]

Not sure about the link above re 188 Sqn. Wickapedia and the RAF web site, (both I know, not the most authoritative of sites); however, in this case they are backed up by Air of Authority; all saying that 188 was not reactivated in pre war expansion or during WW2, having been disbanded in 1918.

The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.

[Courtney Mil]

Right on both counts, Thunderbird.

[Stitchbitch]

Time to reopen the RAuxAF flying club?

[Davef68]

Not sure about the link above re 188 Sqn. Wickapedia and the RAF web site, (both I know, not the most authoritative of sites); however, in this case they are backed up by Air of Authority; all saying that 188 was not reactivated in pre war expansion or during WW2, having been disbanded in 1918.

The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.


If you read the second paragraph on the link it says:

Of the above 'history', only a few parts are true. 188 Squadron did exist from 1917-1919, it was given the Squadron Code XD in 1939 but was never reformed.

[Just This Once...]

I know HMS Ocean is only just out of an expensive and long refit and was re-dedicated by HM this year, but I must have missed the SDSR fine-print in that she will be scrapped inside of the next 2 years.

Given fanfare when the refit was announced as an 'essential capability' I was slightly surprised that she has not secured funding until at least CVS appears.

Admittedly Ocean was never a particularly nice place to live and operate from… but there you go.

When she returns to the UK will she sail again, or just wound-down?

[Not_a_boffin]

AFAIK she will remain available and high readiness until QNLZ is operational in 2018. After that either decommission or lower readiness depending on how the manning plot looks till PoW commissions.

Her refit took out an unsupportable orphan combat system (ADAWS) and replaced it with a DNA variant (as per the rest of Surflot) - and kept trying to keep the material state and habitability in a reasonable place.

[Just This Once...]

It did need a bit more than a lick of paint and when they gutted the old IT systems I am sure they took the opportunity to fix the heads. The FAA certainly needs the spots Ocean offers. Without it they have quite a few squadrons competing for a vanishingly small number of places to park.

Even when CVS arrives the FAA helicopter squadrons will be competing for space with a tailored air group that could include F-35, Chinook, Army Wildcat or Apache, or any combination thereof. With (effectively) 3 Lynx / Wildcat and 6 Merlin squadrons our meagre amount of FAA jam does not have much bread to land on.

[ORAC]

Sounds like a good case for buying a Mistral (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/naval/ships/2015/08/09/mistral-dispute-russia-settled-france-eyes-exports/31278439/). Probably get a good price too if we promised to deploy it to the Eastern Med or Gulf..... :O

[Frostchamber]

On the one hand CVF/QE (CVS was the Invincible class) is huge with a vast flightdeck, so if you're doing mixed ops that's certainly an advantage, and in space terms I doubt we'll be any worse off than now in most circs. But using CVF partly as an LPH has some obvious downsides, aside from mixed ops being inherently more difficult.

One is the occasions when you need to surge the FW element (assuming you have enough airframes). With one vessel in commission, that rather limits your options. Another is sending such a high value asset into harm's way more than you'd really want.

So yes there's a strong case for adding an Ocean replacement into the mix, but even in these heady 2% days the money and manpower stretches only so far (and in the case of manpower, not very), so we make do.

[AnglianAV8R]

Weren't both Mistral ships sold to Egypt ?

[Just This Once...]

So yes there's a strong case for adding an Ocean replacement into the mix, but even in these heady 2% days the money and manpower stretches only so far (and in the case of manpower, not very), so we make do.

Yep, I absolutely get the manpower issue in the RN and that the cuts were horrendous. The make-do spirit is alive and well but unless we get some more 'Fleet' under the 'Air Arm' do we not run the risk of the FAA collapsing in on itself, with further cuts in line with the reduction of deck spots?

[Heathrow Harry]

and we're going to try and man both carriers............... right now we have to employ US Coastguard guys to keep part of the fleet running - once we have the carriers the manpower issue will be catastophic..............

[Arclite01]

No more info on which bits of real estate will close and which will stay/re-role ??

That bit of the jigsaw is sadly lacking detail.

Arc

[Frostchamber]

Difficult certainly but catastrophic may be a tad dramatic. The plan has long been to have one QE available at any given time. Bringing the second QE into service makes that possible 8 years out of 8 rather than 5 years out of 8 but as far as I can see the "one available to deploy" ambition hasn't changed, except possibly in extreme circumstances.

Bear in mind also that the complement of a QE, excluding airgroup, is about the same as for an Invincible, despite the disparity in size. I believe decommissioning Ocean is part of keeping the manpower situation difficult rather than catastrophic, along with the 450 uplift in RN manpower announced in the SDSR.

[alfred_the_great]

No more info on which bits of real estate will close and which will stay/re-role ??

That bit of the jigsaw is sadly lacking detail.

Arc

I would presume the Army's private, single battalion messes and bases will be high on the chop list: answering why we maintain loads of buildings for 30 or so Officers, when there is a very similar one next door on Salisbury Plain, will be an interesting intellectual exercise to watch.

[Ken Scott]

An RAF friend of mine who did a liaison job with the Army said that there were times when he'd be in the bar alone & through the window he could see into the bar of the mess next door where there was another officer also drinking alone.

[Jimlad1]

"I would presume the Army's private, single battalion messes and bases will be high on the chop list: answering why we maintain loads of buildings for 30 or so Officers, when there is a very similar one next door on Salisbury Plain, will be an interesting intellectual exercise to watch. "

Wegimental Twadition - duh... :ugh:

[Arclite01]

Why on earth would Egypt want 2 Mistrals ??

Do they really have a requirement ?

Arc

[Courtney Mil]

Another is sending such a high value asset into harm's way more than you'd really want.


I thought that was the purpose of a warship.

[Army Mover]

I would presume the Army's private, single battalion messes and bases will be high on the chop list: answering why we maintain loads of buildings for 30 or so Officers, when there is a very similar one next door on Salisbury Plain, will be an interesting intellectual exercise to watch.

Would be interesting to see how they do it; apart from the building they sit in, they're all non-public funded organisations. I can see the row starting now, who'd be in charge, who's traditions?

The Army already have Garrison/Central messes; probably because when the Regiment deploys, they take their Mess with them - but maybe that's the way ahead, who knows?

[Frostchamber]

I thought that was the purpose of a warship.

I think I'd argue that a better definition would be delivering the military effect you want while taking reasonable steps to minimise the risk to the asset. If your carrier is doubling as an LPH you may well need to send it closer to the shore than you would if you had a separate LPH fulfilling the role.

[ORAC]

UK Air Chief Hopes To Add Combat Squadron (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/12/04/uk-air-chief-hopes-add-combat-squadron/76783770/)

LONDON — Having secured three extra combat squadrons a little more than a week ago in a strategic defense and security review (SDSR), Britain’s Air Force chief said that he has a plan to add a fourth unit to further boost air power.

“We were destined to be down to six [combat] squadrons by 2020," the Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sir Andrew Pulford told an audience of senior military and industry executives at an Air Power Association dinner at the House of Commons on Thursday. "We knew that was too few ... and we fought for more. We got three squadrons, and I have a fourth in my pocket.”..........

“We are going to stay at nine [squadrons], and I have a plan to get to 10,” Pulford said.

A spokesman for the RAF later sought to play down the remarks, saying that no such plan existed. "SDSR confirmed that the UK will have nine combat air squadrons," said the spokesman. "There are no plans for a 10th squadron. CAS’ comments referred to how, over time, future efficiencies from within the RAF could be used to create an extra squadron.”.............

Industry executives at the dinner wondered where the RAF would get the money and the manpower from for an extra squadron. The additional two Typhoon squadrons already announced are being generated by making more efficient use of the existing fleet, rather than by buying new aircraft. That’s being enabled in large part by better exploitation of advanced simulation for training and mission rehearsal, allowing a greater number of pilots to be sustained at high readiness from broadly the same number of live-flying hours.................

SDSR generally was seen by analysts and others as a big win for the RAF, with improvements to combat mass, a significant increase in ISTAR resources and a decision to run the bulk of the C-130J Hercules fleet beyond its 2022 out-of-service date to 2030. Pulford said that getting to keep 14–Js was like getting a “Christmas present.”..............

The chief of the air staff said that the decision to extend the out-of-service dates of many of the RAF’s key ISTAR assets had provided certainty where there had previously been uncertainty. SDSR extended the lives of the Sentinel battlefield-surveillance aircraft, the Shadow intelligence aircraft, Sentry E3 airborne early-warning and Rivet Joint signals-intelligence platforms.

New purchases include nine Boeing P-8 maritime patrol aircraft, more than 20 Protector UAVs to replace the 10 General Atomics Reapers now in service and an additional three Shadow aircraft — two new platforms and the conversion of a third King Air airframe already owned by the MoD..............

[Arclite01]

I know nothing about drones - aren't they expendable ?? - or expended when they destroy a target ?? - does that mean if we use one to destroy a target we have to buy another to replace it ?

Arc

[Pontius Navigator]

I know nothing about drones - aren't they expendable ?? - or expended when they destroy a target ?? - does that mean if we use one to destroy a target we have to buy another to replace it ?

Arc

Got it in one, why don't you Google and find out?

[Ken Scott]

It would be rather wasteful to lose one with every shot........ I think you're confusing them with Bees.

[Bannock]

Anyone else out there wondering why the P8 buy is not mentioned on the Boeing web site. Usually they press release if someone buys a bag of wheel nuts.

[Lima Juliet]

I saw it on the Boeing Defense Twitter feed on Dec 4 - https://mobile.twitter.com/BoeingDefense

It mentions that there are 16x UK suppliers involved in the deal.

LJ :ok:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVYd4yCWEAA7kBk.jpg

[ORAC]

Hmmm. Possibly because they are being purchased through the USN rather than a direct purchase through Boeing? Therefore being wrapped up in successive USN orders - like the first Australian airframe is included in the 13 airframes in USN tranche 2?

If you look at the Boeing press release (http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2015-08-28-Boeing-Receives-1-49-Billion-Contract-for-13-P-8A-Poseidon-Aircraft) on the tranche they mention the Australian first airframe. But if you scroll down on the page that links to the press releases - only the USA and India are mentioned as customers (http://www.boeing.com/defense/maritime-surveillance/p-8-poseidon/index.page#/overview).

Following the same logic, they won't put up anything directly relating to the RAF order, but will state when their airframes are included in subsequent USN tranches.

Just an opinion.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

Defence cuts - found this mouldering in an aircraft scrap-yard the other day. Apparently attributable to a F/O Peter Wyton. It seems strangely appropriate these days:


This poem was written by Peter Wyton [pen name] when he was serving at RAF Wyton in the early 70s. There is no objection at all to the poem being circulated but please ensure that it is always attributed to Peter. More info about him at www.myspace.com/peterwytonpoet The poem often turns up in a rather muddled form, the correct form is copied below.
Regards
L. Fisher [Peter's manager].

THE UNKINDEST (DEFENCE) CUT OF ALL

I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I've an office in the M.O.D.
And a copy of Queen's Regulations
Which only apply to little me.
I can post myself off to Leuchars
And detach me from there to Kinloss
Or send me on a course to Innsworth
Then cancel the lot - I'm the Boss.

I'm the last man left in the Air Force
But the great parliamentary brains
Omitted, when cancelling people,
To sell off the stations and planes,
The result is, my inventory bulges
With KD and camp stools and Quarters,
Plus a signed book of speeches by Trenchard
That I keep to impress the reporters.

I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I suppose you imagine it's great
To be master of all you survey but
I tell you, it's difficult, mate.
I inspected three units last Thursday
As A.O.C. (Acting) of Strike,
Then I swept half the runway at Laarbruch
And repaired Saxa Vord's station bike.

I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
My wife says I'm never at home,
When I'm not flying Hercs I'm at Manston,
Laying gallons and gallons of foam,
Or I'm in my Marine Craft at Plymouth,
Shooting flares at the crowds on the Ho,
Or I'm Orderly Corporal at Uxbridge,
It's an interesting life, but all go.


I'm the last man left in the Air Force,
I'm A.D.C. to the Queen,
I'm Duty Clerk at St. Mawgan,
I'm the R.A.F. rugby team,
Tomorrow I'm painting a guardroom
And air-testing several planes,
The day after that I'm for London
To preach at St. Clement Dane's.

I'm the last man left in the Air Force
And I'm due to retire before long,
There's been no talk of any replacement
And I won't even let me sign on.
I hope to enjoy my retirement,
I've put up a pretty good show,
But I won't cut myself off entirely.
There are always reunions, y'know.

© Peter Wyton

[glad rag]

I saw it on the Boeing Defense Twitter feed on Dec 4 - https://mobile.twitter.com/BoeingDefense

It mentions that there are 16x UK suppliers involved in the deal.

LJ :ok:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVYd4yCWEAA7kBk.jpg

Why are the engine cowling’s still flattened on the military asw variant?

[Pontius Navigator]

Skids?

Looks sexy?

[ORAC]

Because they still have to clear the ground?

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, I wonder why the don't fit a longer undercarriage. Then they could access the weapons bay more easily.

Of course they might need to add extra pods on the wings.

But then they could use spare space in the pods for chaff.

But they may need to strengthen the undercarriage for the extra weight.

And make the pods bigger.

But provide additional pods for the chaff that won't fit in the initial pods.

But then . . .

[Martin the Martian]

Now, now, PN. Just sit down and have a cup of tea.

[Pontius Navigator]

MtM, not at all, I have shares in BAE. Anything to earn tax dollars.