Mystery Monoplane

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/MysteryMono.jpg

Can anyone out there identify this mystery monoplane? It is a two-seater and the rear cockpit is fitted with a Scarfe ring. The fuselage appears to be made of metal and the wing(s) are fabric-covered.

[charliegolf]

BP Defiant?

Just a thought.

CG

[VX275]

The engine looks like its a 'W' configuration, Napier Lion I'd also guess its a biplane that's lost its upper wing in the crash.

[pulse1]

Looks like an American aircraft. Most of the people look American and it looks like the rudder has the sort of horizontal stripes one finds on US aircraft of that era.

[JW411]

I did wonder about that.

[chevvron]

BP Defiant?

Just a thought.

CG
Defiant had a Merlin engine

[JW411]

Nor did it have fabric covered wings, a two-bladed prop and open cockpits.

[Tawhiri]

If we're going with the US angle, Curtis Falcon with the upper wing missing perhaps?

[blue up]

Fairey III F?

[evansb]

This appears to be quite a puzzler..a crashed military aeroplane surrounded by civilians, at least two of which look oriental. The mansion with the tall chimney visible in the upper right corner of the photograph adds to the mystery.

How did you come into possession of the photograph?

[Stanwell]

That's a real headscratcher, that one.

As pulse1 says, the scene has an American flavour to it.
The time-frame appears to be around the mid-twenties.
The hero on the wing looking proprietorial looks like he's part of an act.
I think it WAS a biplane prior to its mishap.
The powerplant looks to be a geared W12 (broad arrow) configuration.
There were 4 makes of W12 around at that time (Napier, Sunbeam, Lorraine and Farman).
The Yanks (USAAC) previously operated a number of two-seat Potez 25s.
Two versions of the two-seat Potez 25 used Lorraine and Farman W12 engines.

So, it's just possible it could be a Lorraine-engined Potez 25 used as part of an act in the roaring twenties - somewhere in the USA.
That's my theory for the moment, anyway.
.

[SincoTC]

Hi Guys,

This appears to be quite a puzzler..a crashed military aeroplane surrounded by civilians, at least two of which look oriental. The mansion with the tall chimney visible in the upper right corner of the photograph adds to the mystery.

That mansion looks French to me and I wonder if the wreck is the result of the failed take-off attempt on the record flight from Etampes to Siberia mentioned below.

The aircraft Potez 28 G.R. built in 1927 and equipped with Farman 18We 500 hp engine, pilot Lionel de Marmier broke several records in flight range with cargo, but on September 13, 1927 while trying to establish yet another record-range with this aircraft, when the weight caused a tyre to burst and the aircraft was destroyed; the pilots escaped unhurt!

The engine cowling looks correct for a Farman and the elevators and rigging do too.

Just a thought, but it would account for all the civilians and Hero-worship :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_28

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/law1/potez28.html

[evansb]

Wasn't the Potez 28M a parasol-wing design?

I think it just might be a Breguet Bre-19. I think the photo was taken on location, (Kelly Field, San Antonio, Texas), of American director William Wellman's classic 1927 silent film Wings. The climax of the story comes with the epic Battle of Saint-Mihiel, ( The Battle of Saint-Mihiel was a World War I battle fought from 12–15 September 1918, involving the American Expeditionary Forces and 110,000 French troops under the command of General John J. Pershing of the United States against German positions. The United States Army Air Service played a significant role in this action). The leading man is shot down and presumed dead. However, he survives the crash landing, steals a German biplane, and heads for the Allied lines. By a tragic stroke of bad luck, Jack spots the enemy aircraft and, bent on avenging his friend, begins an attack. He is successful in downing the aircraft and lands to retrieve a souvenir of his victory. The owner of the land where David's aircraft crashed urges Jack to come to the dying man's side.

Here is a link to the movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_(1927_film)

Here is a photo of the entrance to Kelly Field, circa 1917:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/Kelly-Field-1917.jpg

[Planet Basher]

That wing looks too small for an aircraft that size, another vote for a biplane.

[Stanwell]

I think we could be getting warm, chaps.

The mansion does look typically French.
The older woman on the far right looks typically French.
The wing with the hero standing on it could well be the stbd end of the parasol wing of the 28M.


p.s. As PB says though, the chord of that wing does look a bit narrow.

[SincoTC]

Wasn't the Potez 28M a parasol-wing design?

Oops, serves me right for cutting and pasting from two sites in a hurry!

Yes it was, I meant to paste the bit that said Potez 28 G.R. (Grandes Raids or long distance flights) one of two Sesquiplanes built for record flights.

That had quite a narrow lower wing which seems to suit the photo and is in line with Planet Basher and Stanwell's observations.

[evansb]

I understand the justification, but would one attempt a record breaking long-distance flight with a Scarfe ring installed?

Breguet Bre.19:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/97b87c67-a731-4e78-85d1-50b2c4a377af.jpg

[SincoTC]

I understand the justification, but would one attempt a record breaking long-distance flight with a Scarfe ring installed?

Yeah, that's been worrying me too, I had the feeble excuse that it was put on to impress potential customers of its long-range military potential (but I don't really buy it) :(

I'm thinking you may be onto it with the Lorraine powered Breguet Bre.19, That protuberance behind the centre cowl looks like it fits and there looks like the remains of a triangular pylon further back on the centreline!

[Stanwell]

Well I'm convinced, anyway.

So, evansb, how did you track it down to Wellman's "Wings" film?

[Nige321]

I think it's the Breuget - look at the elevator mass balances...

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/france/breguet-xix.gif

[evansb]

First of all, I do not know if I am correct. It is only my conclusion. I will have to obtain and watch the entire movie Wings for confirmation.

What drew me to the movie Wings? For a variety of reasons, I thought the scene did not look like a real crash. It looked staged to me. I researched W.W.I flying movies made in the late 1920's and early 1930's. As an amateur aviation historian, I recall Howard Hughes being influenced by the movie Wings prior to producing and directing Hell's Angels. A survivable crash being a pivotal scene in Wings, plus the barren topography, and the French-style house were clues that led me to my conclusion.

Why the Breguet Bre.19? I eliminated U.S.-built aircraft early on. The engine design led me to Europe. The internal fuselage bracing forward of the gunner's position, the Scarfe ring, the tail empennage, the wire bracing, and the shape of the centre strut damage atop the firewall led me to the Bre.19. Also, I am assuming the non-standard holes in the engine fairing covers were installed for hot weather cooling considerations.

[JW411]

evansb:

"How did the photograph come into your possession?"

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I thought I had better get the story right. A French colleague sent me some photographs of 42 Squadron BE2s and personnel to comment upon. He also sent the "mystery monoplane" photograph.

It appears that he purchased the BE2 material from eBay (America).

However, he tells me that the photograph in question was found inside a French book.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with the Breguet Bre.19. I also like your idea about a staged crash for a movie. Do we accept that those are US markings on the rudder or something else? What would a Breguet 19 be doing at Kelly Field and how did it get there?

Is it possible that the movie company slapped some paint on a Breguet 19 in France and filmed the fake crash scene there?

In any event, I would like to thank you all for your ideas and I am as usual in awe of evansb's contribution.

[philbky]

Some observations: I agree the majority of the participants look American but the jarring note is the woman on the extreme right wearing typical French peasant woman's garb of blouse, white apron over a skirt, dark stockings and, the real giveway, the wooden clogs called sabots. Whilst this may have been taken in France, the staged wreck for a film is equally likely with the woman being so dressed for authenticity.

[Flybiker7000]

Yeah, that's been worrying me too, I had the feeble excuse that it was put on to impress potential customers of its long-range military potential (but I don't really buy it)
Oh how I love to read those 'investigation debates'. It's remarkably how even small details can be observed and used for reckognition :-o

About the scarfe-ring: I think it possible is a part of the fuselages strenght due to the loss of longitudinal trusses where the opening is cut-out :-/

[Stanwell]

Flybiker,
Line 1: Agree. The longer you look, the more you see. :ok:
Line 2: Possible, but I somehow doubt it.



So, the questions now are...

evansb: Did you get to have a look at 'Wings' to confirm that's a set from the film?

In the event that it is from that film, then what's the provenance of that particular aircraft?
AFAIK, there had been only one Bre19 visitor to USA (New York).
How did this particular one get to Texas?

The fact that its Scarff ring is still mounted and that the fabric surfaces are still in good nick suggests that it had recently been retired from military service.
It has also been dismantled and, sort of, re-assembled to represent a crashed warplane.

The USAAC didn't operate Bre19s.
Closer to the USA, Breguet 19s were operated by Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Equador.

The props acquisition manager knew where to get a suitable aircraft (or major components thereof) cheap - and not all that far from Texas.

In the 'highly unlikely' department, it's remotely conceivable that during a 'goodwill' visit from one of the 'neighbours', one may have come a cropper
on US soil, was written off and left behind.


Anybody got a plausible idea where it may have come from?
.

[fujii]

As an aside, I have a copy of the souvenir magazine for the movie Wings which was sold for sixpence at the cinema.

[JW411]

"The USAAC didn't operate Bre19s"

However, during a recent Google session, I saw a drawing of a Breguet 19 in US Navy colours. Did they perhaps operate some or was the drawing a figment of someone's imagination?

[Stanwell]

Ah! Good question, 411.
Undoubtedly, Breguet would have tried to sell the Bre19 to both the USAAC and USN at the time of their sales tour of the Americas.
Perhaps they left their demonstrator behind?

One point that niggles with me, though, is your advice that the photo was found in a FRENCH book.
Hmm.


Back to the 'Wings' film, I noted that the director additionally distributed 10 hand-held cameras to members of his crew for use during battle scenes.
His instruction to these cameramen was to shoot everything and anything during the action sequences.
Now, if we look at the photo again, on the lower middle there is a left shirt-sleeve of someone who could be using a hand-held camera.
That shirt-sleeve doesn't look like WWI period costume to me. If anything, it looks a bit 'Hollywood-ish'.
Waddya think?
.

[JW411]

Indeed; I also wondered if that could be a chap wielding a cine camera in the right foreground.

My friend is quite explicit that this photograph was found inside a French book. Since he lives near Bailleul that is probably not surprising. Most of the books in his neck of the woods will be French books apart from some written in Flemish!

I also wonder about the structure that can be seen behind the people on the earth bank. It reminds me of an old open trailer that I used to use to transport my old glider from A to B. Could it be that it had just delivered the bits of the aircraft or perhaps has come to take them away.