NYPD Aviation Unit - Going shopping!

[Bronx]

Hi Guys

Don't know if you've read about this on your side of the pond, but the NYPD is revving up to replace most of our aging helo fleet and we're going shopping for quicker and more powerful equipment to patrol the city's skies.

We're keeping our two Bell 412 Air Sea Rescue's we've only had a few years, but getting shot of our three Bell 206B III Jet Rangers and the Bell 206 L IV Long Ranger. Great helos and they get the most use but with two big guys up front, all the gear we carry and full gas, it can be kinda tricky carrying passengers! ;)

Anyways, we're buying four new helos and the brass have decided that twins is probably the way to go - for better payload.
The NYPD is the biggest Police Department in the world so all the manufacturers are bidding to get the Unit badge on their helos.

We operate under extremely hazardous conditions in a very demanding environment - equipment failure is not an option! :eek:
It seems like you guys on Rotorheads operate every goddam helo under the sun somewhere in the world, so I'd be very interested in your thoughts and experiences.

My questions are ~

Which helo(s) would you recommend?
What are your reasons? (Speed, payload, reliability whatever?)
Any which you'd say 'No way, Jose' ?
Why?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Joe Zabaglione
Floyd Bennett Field, Brooklyn

(And guys, I'm new on the Rotorheads block, so go easy OK. :D )

One of our B412's (taken before 9/11. http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/pix/vehicles/chopper-i.jpg

[What Limits]

On our side of the pond its mainly between the MD902 and Eurocopter EC135. There is not much betweeen them, although I fly the 902 and it is a delight to fly being smooth and quiet.

There are still some operators of the Eurocopter AS355 Twin Squirrel but that is now a little long in the tooth.

I would imagine that there will be some replies extolling the virtues of both.

Good luck

[flygunz]

Bronx, check out the Phoenix PD they seem to be cutting the edge in the southwest as far as police aviation is concerned.
As for the UK, a very varied helicopter fleet, i'm looking forward to the replies, hope there's some "mines better and bigger than yours" incoming!!

[Bronx]

Thanks for the replies so far.
Last time I knew, Phoenix were operating about seven MD520N Notars. Good unit.
I'm trying to get 'informal' feedback from pilots in the industry round the world and Rotorheads seems like the best place to ask.
Thanks
Joe Z.

[t'aint natural]

Many years ago (mid to late 70s) I was working as a reporter on the New York Post when we were taken out to Floyd Bennett to see some helicopters the NYPD had just picked up - UH1s from the Military - and the one thing that sticks in my mind was that for some reason, the police had had to pay $160 each for them. I presume you got your money's worth.

[SandBlaster-214]

OK, Hoverman, I'm taking the bait.

Officer Bronx,

I'm old school and a little light on operational experience with the "new" twins on the market today such as the EC120, 135, BH 430, 427, etc., so I'm going to defer any opinion with regard to anything I haven't flown.

What does NYPD do with the aircraft? Are you mainly into patrol work, rescue, EMS? What are your plans for the new aircraft? How many people do you want to carry?

I've seen a few agencies using 117's and 105's. Phoenix is using the NOTARs as is the NPS in Grand Canyon (I believe that Papillon actually owns that aircraft). As a side note, Grand Canyon is somewhere around 6500 ft. How well it does - I have no idea, and if I'm not mistaken, the NPS aircraft is the twin version (I don't know the designators).

The 117s are very popular with EMS and they tend to pack a lot of toys wherever they go.

What about your neighbors in Maryland? They're flying the twin Dauphine's aren't they?

I think I've spent too much time in the woods to be of any real help here, but if it were me, I'd ask for four more 412s.

Thanks for the time.

C Ya

[Bronx]

DD
Thanks for your comments. Good as the 412 is, they're not suitable for all our missions, and four more would be a little extravagant!
I guess we do what most air support units do, depending on location. We respond to various emergencies and tasks, supporting Patrol as well as other units of the NYPD. from deploying divers during air-sea rescues to placing officers atop hi-rise buildings during emergencies. The Aviation Unit is vital to the NYPD in providing New York City with the fastest and most professional response available.

[lills]

Bronx,

I used to fly our state Police Bk117. It's only real downfall is it's range and support backup. Though having said that if you were going to buy a few I'm sure the support would be forthcoming.

The rear cabin has heaps of room, although the front cabin can be a little squeezy for burley coppers. It will easily take a 6 men swat team and all there bomb, bullets and bullsh*t. Although not far.

It is a great EMS machine and a good winching platform, we had double lift winch compared to the single lift on the twin squirrel.

It has a useful payload we carried three crew, FLIR,Winch and full fuel. ( still having enough payload for additional pax. )

They are relative quick 150 VNE but with all the crap hanging off probably closer to 110-115.

I'm not sure of your budget but they are a good machine and best of all built to MILSPEC (ie. like a tank)

Goodluck

[Gibbo]

DesertDude,

I would put a line through the EC-120 when making a list of 'new' twins mate; it's OEI performance is woeful, about the same as a B206. ;)

Gibbo

[B Sousa]

NYPD has a ton of money and since 911 probably unlimited funds........So It would sure like nice to see an MH-53 ruuning down Wall Street at 100' at VNE......all prettied out in Blue.....
Can you imagine, about five SWAT teams dropping in on some OC Social Club gathering from one of those......


(Sacramento PD retired)

[Thomas coupling]

Bronx:

You're in a great position to lead the country in cutting edge technology, here!
We were in the same situation 4-5 years ago when it was decided to replace our ageing aircraft.
We fly in probably the most demanding police force area in the UK. 9000 sq miles of rugged terrain, 450 miles of coastline, mountains, lakes and a population which trebles during the 'silly season'. If it wasn't for the military (on the whole) supplying SAR then we would trully be a fully paid up member of the paramilitary brigade.
I'll assume your police officers are paramedic and winch trained.
Dependent on your endurance requirements I would suggest pushing the boat out and looking at the >3 tonnes twin class.
It's almost certain that if you go down the route of purchasing light twins (135 / 902 / 109 / Bell, now, then within 5-8 years you'll be complaining of lack of payload/endurance/performance. Police ops is almost certainly underdeveloped (UK) and they are slowly beginning to realise what a potent capability they have.
We currently fly the EC135 and I can see a time when demands will require us to move up to the next class. More and more we are being asked to get involved in complex operations which require either a greater payload (firearms teams to be taken greater distances, or carry more of them/staying airborne for longer)or carry specialist equipment (intercepting boats off shore - winching / rapid roping). If the government relinquish responsibility for military SAR cover, the onus may fall back to the police. All in all, if I was to recommend a new generation helo to take the unit forward into the 21st century it would be a new generation 3 tonne class.
I don't know how much of a foothold European helo manufacturers have over there but they have a very comprehensive suite of helos to cater for your needs.
BUY NEW GENERATION TECHNOLOGY or your running costs living with past technology (let alone back up support), will bleed you dry!!
You're bound to get a good deal, talking the numbers you're looking for....make this the best decision of the year or watch out!

PS: give the USA 'soccer' team a chuck up will you, they are doing you a great service over in Japan....

TC

[HeliMark]

Bronx, as I am sure you are aware, make sure you know what you are going to put in/on the airframes. If you have to get new STC's for some of the equipment, it will add to the cost and time involved.

Not a bad thing, just something to remember to factor in. We had to get a new STC for a downlink system and it was a pain in time and money. And the FAA is really (for good reasons) doing a lot of testing if you have a FADEC system.

[tgrendl]

Bronx,

Floyd Bennet field, what history.

I'd suggest making a short list then talking and visiting operators of the type to determine true operating costs.

Then work out a short term lease of a few different types to see how they actually work in your operations.

And keep the L model with the C-30 as a backup, great power and cheap to run.


222, 230 and 430 would be nice but pin down Bell on spares cost and availabilty before buying.

Let us know what you got !

[tecpilot]

I´ve flown in a police unit and would recommend the brand new EC145. On the base of the proven BK 117 the ship fits nearly all imaginable missions. Compared to the BK the internal space is greater and better usable. More payload, greater range and the best, due to the new cockpit design, a much better view for the pilot (not so exciting on BK`s). On the state of the art, full NVG compatible+IR spotlight, hoist, rapelling kit and all the other special stuff available and usable. Rigid rotor system, flights are really smooth and calm. Ground clearance MR and TR is unbeatable. If you are looking forward (the next 10-15 years), it`s makes no sense to bet on 20 years old overimproved constructions with their known limitations. ( an example: the A109, allways more engine power and avionics, but airframe limited). May be EC will have starting problems like all other new ships and the bugs of the older ships are known. Ok that's an advantage. But EC's orderbooks are full and to the time you could have the ships delivered, they have made the experiences.

[John Eacott]

Techpilot,

"Rigid rotor system, flights are really smooth and calm".

Huh? In nil wind, calm as a mill pond, maybe. Otherwise, the BK rotor system is as near to a fixed wing for lousy gust reponse and ride characteristics as I can remember.

However, strong as a tank, beautifully made (everything fits, trim and parts actually go back where they're supposed to after removal) and a bundle of fun to drive. But a fair old handful without CSAS and autopilot, and only marginally better after all those $$$$'s worth!

[tecpilot]

Hallo John Eacott,
greetings to down under.
Unfortunately at the moment i can't remember where it is, but i'm shure, i've seen a chart with ride characteristics and vibration levels. Compared with light airplanes and some other helos the BK stand in the upper (better) quarter. To vibration and different rotor systems we've seen some threads in the past. I agree it's difficult discussion. To avoid the next thread i will cancel the
"Rigid rotor system, flights are really smooth and calm".
The EC 145 is equipped with a rigid rotor system but have new rotor blades + the "balls".

What's going on with your fixed line trials?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

For what it's worth, our UK police unit operates a 902 for 1200 hours/year. Only real issue seems to be the ability of MDHI to convince its customers that it will remain a going concern - the a/c itself is a treat to operate and fly. As for flight AP/SAS off (hi John! how's the ski season shaping up?) - ours has been u/s awaiting spares for 4 weeks and the only noticeable difference has been that it's quicker to get the beastie airborne as there are fewer checks to do! Seriously, the AP/SAS is excellent when it works, and you'd want it there for you hovering downwind at night with few visual references - over the Hudson river springs to mind - but the aircraft is very stable without. The presence of the "broom cupboard" control-run closet behind the pilot's head does reduce the ability of the crew to interact to a minor degree when compared to the AS355, but this has caused us no problems so far. As Thomas Coupling says, buy new-generation - you'll benefit in the long run.

[inthegreen]

I think the MD902 would be a fine choice to replace the 206s. It has much better performance than the EC135 and with a soon to be released MGW increase will have an even greater payload margin over the 135. It is very smooth, very quiet and very comfortable to fly. It has one of the best pilot seats I've ever sat in. The Bendix autopilot is great, but I doubt you'd have much use for that. The sliding rear doors are great for easy in and out and rappelling, fast rope, short-haul, hoist or whatever you use. There is room for six in back (EC135 is only 5) on folding mesh seats, or lots of room for cargo. The most outstanding feature in my opinion is the panoramic visibility up front. You've got to see it to believe it. e-mail me if you like more info.

[email protected]

[Oracle]

:D
Lucky guys having the world as your oyster and undoubtedly every manufacturer's carpet-bagger banging on your door!
The 412 is still a capable (20th Century) machine and well worth keeping for it's current roles. If you want a great and reliable machine, go for the 'Dauphin' - a few early teething problems with the new EC 155, - but with an upgraded engine it will be the business for your work - small rotor diameter, great cockpit viz and now an even larger cabin. I would suggest you get a team together and go over to Germany and visit the German Border Guards who operate a load of these new beauties - and have all the NVG/FLIR/goodies, bells and whistles on them to add to your own Christmas Wish List. From experience using them on SAR and Police Support Ops, the 'Dauphin' (as was) is a great little machine and although the spares are a tad pricey and support needs nailing down hard (spares packages etc & 'power by the hour' a must) we always averaged a 95% serviceability rate - which Sikorsky could never hope to beat on a good day, with a following wind! Also, get yourself a few smaller nippier little NVG capable machines for those 'down and dirty, sneaking about in the dark jobs' - best to get advice from those other Police EC135 and McD operators out there for the best buy on the block!

Shame Bell can't go CobraZ head & BERP blades and re-engine the old 214B with 2 Blackhawk donkeys - then those of us who truly love the Huey might have something that could attack 150 knots from that reliable old stable and could also be a great lifter! Are you listening, Fort Worth? Time to hit the 21st Century!

Good luck - and a word of advice - run a decent procurement competition, and UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES let your bean-counters do the choosing - always a perfect recipe for ending up procuring buying the cheapest, most unsuitable and poorly equipped machine available! (The Augusta 139 might be nice - but its still a few months down the road and unproven as yet.)

:D

[widgeon]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/impnexp2_e.asp?x_lang=e

Are bell actively marketing the 427 ? , see above link they have not exported any this year .
On paper it would seem to be a contender and seeing NYPD are probably the first user of Bell helicopters in a law enforcement role it will take a lot to change them.

[Thomas coupling]

Inthegreen: I'm not going into specifics because I think there is room for both the 902 and 135 in the (light twin class) police world. However, I would suggest you consider what you print, more carefully. There are problems with the 902 that will not go away, it doesn't have the clean profile you necessarily advertise, at the expense of the competition. Do your homework before you 'rag' the other types available..........

;)

[inthegreen]

Easy there Thomas,

I don't really think I was "ragging" on the competition. The man asked for my opinion and I was giving it. I'm flying the 902 presently, like it and think it is an improvement over the 900. I've also been with two companies now who have independently evaluated the 900/902 side by side with the EC135 for an EMS/SAR/Utility role and have opted for the Explorer, without my input I might add. I'm also able to look at performance charts, dimensions and seating arrangements and make a reasonable comparison. I respect that you fly the 135 and have a tenderness for it. It is also a great aircraft. Give the man your opinion then. That's what an opinion is, your point of view biased toward your beliefs. You don't have to give a disclaimer that there are alternatives out there, everyone already knows that. My real opinion is that I would buy three new 412s instead of four lights, but I didn't say that. I am curious what "problems that won't go away" that you are referring to on the 902?

ITG

[chopperdr]

sir: instead of pricey light twins that offer little advantage, why not put as-350b3 or 407's on line, you could field 4 fully equipped for the price of two light twins ( md 902 / 135 ). all the aforementioned airframes can do the job. but with the 412 on staff, why not look towards an airframe that operate in tight areas, loads of power and all the capability of the light twins at half the cost. the most capable aircraft in the world is not much good if it is u/s waiting for spares etc. going with the 350 or 407 would allow you the luxury of actually having a true backup a/c 24/7. as for capability, other than full engine failure, what can a 902 / 135 do better than the as-350b3
chopper dr

[PANews]

what can a 902 / 135 do better than the as-350b3

It is all about mission profile.

NYPD have been looking for a long time ... well over a year. Last year they were looking at singles including the Koala.

I can only assume that all the time they have been looking has led them to identify a low level urban mission that would be better served with two engines. One I am aware of is night-time 300 feet over the Central Park trees.

Ok there is only one gearbox, rotor etc.. but when low down an engine run-down is far more embarassing than at a height where they can choose a spot to land.

[Bronx]

Well, the NYPD has gotten a new helo. The public launch for the media was yesterday. This is how NY's Newsday ran the story. Cops Get New Chopper

The Police Department's aviation unit unveiled the latest addition to its fleet Wednesday: a $9.8 million state-of-the art helicopter.

The Bell 412 EP chopper is one of seven assorted helicopters used by the NYPD, but this particular one is equipped with all the latest in high-tech surveillance equipment.

"This new helicopter is another powerful tool that will be used to both save the lives of New Yorkers and to help in our relentless fight in both conventional crime and the threat of terrorism," said Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

Some of the bells and whistles on the chopper include an advanced photo and video system that is equipped with long-range optics. The camera system is so sophisticated it is capable of reading a license plate from 1,000 feet away, making it five times more powerful than the older surveillance equipment.

The cameras also have the ability to be switched to infrared for night operations.

The helicopter is equipped with a microwave downloading system that is capable of downlinking images to police headquarters and to portable handheld devices on the ground.

"Police officials can use other portable video systems at major events and assess the size of a crowd," said Kelly as the chopper loomed behind him in a hanger at Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn.

The onboard computer boasts a mobile digital terminal that gives the crew the ability to access department databases to get information such as names and license plate numbers while in the air.

The chopper also has the latest technology in GPS tracking systems, mapping, radios and telephones.

The 412, as it is known, seats three crew members and seven passengers. It was paid for by a grant from the U.S. Department of Justice and is the only one of its kind being used by a police department.
Kinda 180 from the talk a year ago but it's a fine helo.

[Thomas coupling]

Bronx:
shame really, new technology in an old crate. Sounds to me like the accountants run the show?

Good luck with them though:)

[PANews]

The fact remains that after all the talk they walked away from twin engines and are expecting delivery of the first replacement single engine A119 Koala any time now.

Still it has the PWC PT-6 ... '... probably the most reliable engine in the world...' [say that sounds a familiar line] but a fadec on a single can be tricky to handle at low altitude [so winch every time no fixed lines please ....].

[Dynamic Component]

Nowhere in here do I see the EC130 B4 mentioned:confused:
As they are going with single engine,this would be an excellent aircraft.Good viz, lots of power, quiet,fast and maintenance friendly-everything they would need.Unlike the noisy, maintenance demanding Koala.:hmm:

Just my 2 cents:}