Lord West miffed as RAF to control carriers

[Finningley Boy]

Yes indeed chaps, Air Marshal Sir Steven Hillier, has been chosen to head the new Queen Elizabeth Carrier Force.

Lord West turns Navy Blue around the Gills as a result claiming the idea to be 'Barking Mad'

I respectifully have to agree. With all due defernce to the RAF:O

FB:)

[Courtney Mil]

Well, it makes sense really. If it involves aircraft it should be RAF, if it involves tanks it's clearly Army, if it's just a boat its Navy, right?

[O-P]

CM,

Boats, albeit in a controlled fashion, sink.

[DunWinching]

Looks like the RAF Marine Branch, scrapped about 1984, is back plus 31 years interest. Those carriers will make great Range Target Towing Launches. IsIs it too late to rename them Halifax etc?

[Courtney Mil]

Good reason not to go on them, O-P.

[Al-bert]

The carriers clearly should belong to the army - they are merely portable airfields and as such are RCT assets. Besides, the army do more sailing than the RAF or Navy :E

[Courtney Mil]

Apparently, this is going to make the UK a laughing stock. Can't wait for Sharkey to hear about this.

[Finningley Boy]

Never mind Sharkey, wait til Lewis Page gets to hear about. I imagine his comments will be quite vivid as well.:ok:

FB:)

[alfred_the_great]

An interesting bite, well done the OP.

[Courtney Mil]

Never mind Sharkey, wait til Lewis Page gets to hear about. I imagine his comments will be quite vivid as well.

Naa! Lewis Page actually makes some sense, albeit hugely tribal, and he continually misses the opportunity to blame the RAF conspiracy to neuter the RN for everything wrong in the world. I much prefer Sharkey's rabid and factually incorrect ratings.

Both entertaining in their own way, but Sharkey wins on "Fringe" value.

[Union Jack]

Please don't tell me that the Royal Navy did not see something like this coming....:hmm:

Jack

[Al-bert]

factually incorrect ratings.

are ratings allowed to voice an opinion in todays RN? :E

[Herod]

Can't they be contracted out to Cunard?

[Haraka]

Please don't tell me that the Royal Navy did not see something like this coming...

ISTR "Jointery" being the big buzz word in the mid 90's, with CAS booming the term out at one function I attended, accompanied by row of top table nodding donkeys frantically trying to out do each other in demonstrating enthusiastic approval.
I felt physically ill, since I feared the Junior Service was going to be heading toward the end of the 100 year experiment.

Not just yet it would appear.

[gpugh]

or perhaps the Chinese could run them for us

[Wrathmonk]

He'll be 'tourex' long before the 'force' in Queen Elizabeth Carrier Force comes to fruition. The Navy have played a blinder - let the RAF take the growing pain and then sweep in and take the glory. Unless it's an army appointment next of course!;)

[MSOCS]

Before the outrage bus hits 5th gear en-route to gullibletown, it's probably worth pointing out that there is little-to-no contextual accuracy to these news articles.

AM Hillier is appointed SRO for the Carrier ENABLED Power Projection Programme. The ships are just part of that Programme; along with F-35B when embarked, the CROWSNEST Merlin and a bunch of other helicopters such as AH-64 and Chinook. He heads the Programme. He isn't in charge of the ships. He has plenty of Maritime SQEP individuals working in the Programme to advise him.

This whole story is like someone getting upset at Sir Richard Branson for not being a Virgin Atlantic pilot.

[Lima Juliet]

I reckon he'll be CAS or CDS next...

[skippedonce]

Sir Richard Branson? Well, there are worse options.

[BARKINGMAD]

......"claiming the idea to be "Barking Mad".......

Please leave me out of this discussion, though l did serve at Finningley for my last tour, before escaping to 'civil airline'flying!!! :=

[Hangarshuffle]

Good reply from MSOCS. Who cares anyway what colour he is, as long as he is super competent at what he meant to be doing? If he isn't, then get another suit in to do it.
Its simply the perception continuing about the project, that this is general British military incompetence that should be worrying. Literally hundreds of comments about this on the newspaper websites and most of them are negative. Gradually this rubs off on people and demoralises them.

[brakedwell]

How many Air Marshalls will it take to command 4 F35's and 2 big boats?

[BARKINGMAD]

"How many Air Marshals.........."

Take a look at the current number of Admirals for our shrunken RN, then interpolate? :ugh:

[NutLoose]

If the Navy kick off saying it is a boat, one could always mention Yeovilton.. Will this mean further mods to the Carriers as they weld onto the rear deck a hotel suite? ;)

[AutoBit]

OK MSOCS,

Lets say he does have sufficient Maritime SQEP to advise him why stop there? Presumably we can have an EngO as Stn Cdr on a flying unit because he/she will have their Sqn Cdrs to advise them, or an RAF Regt Officer as AOC 1 Gp because he will have SQEP to advise him.

Now I know Im being deliberately confrontational because I accept that AM Hillier is delivering a capability and not necessarily commanding it, but it might have helped if at least he had a bit of previous knowledge to help him out. What I find most alarming is that with the huge number of VSO's that we have none have any experience in one of the UKs biggest ever procurement programmes. :ugh:

[effortless]

Left hand down a bit number one. Flare at the harbour entrance.

[bobward]

Post 13 offers a hint, surely?

If we can sub-let Voyagers to make a few quid, think of how big the cruise market is these days. All that space on a flat deck to lay out the sun-beds, direct flights from ashore to bring on the passengers......

[Finningley Boy]

If we can sub-let Voyagers to make a few quid, think of how big the cruise market is these days. All that space on a flat deck to lay out the sun-beds, direct flights from ashore to bring on the passengers......

Erm...? Would this not pose a teensy weensy problemette with regards to sleeping and dining arrangements? Mind you this could also be the prime selling point! I can see it now;

Set sail with Britain's foremost carrier strike force, share a hammock with a genuine salty old dog of the sea, see the golden rivet, experience the thrill of sailing into battle at very short notice and still do all the normal cruise stuff on our ample and spacious open air lounge deck!! Other attractions include a daily two can beer raton and the occasional no notice general quarters exercise!!! Or whatever they call it.:ok:

FB:)

[Cows getting bigger]

Aircraft carriers carry aircraft to defend the carrier which needs defending because it carries aircraft which defend the .........

(Yes, I know it's old school but how much of the UK's future carrier capability is still a self-licking lollipop?)

[david parry]

Ah! For the Halcyon days when the Skipper was an Ex Buccaneer pilot;)

[Frostchamber]

Aircraft carriers carry aircraft to defend the carrier which needs defending because it carries aircraft which defend the .........

(Yes, I know it's old school but how much of the UK's future carrier capability is still a self-licking lollipop?)


Arguably much less of a self licking ice cream than a fleet composed solely of frigates and destroyers, given that it has much more potential to deliver real military effect. The question of course is how far UK politicians are interested in enabling the asset to fulfil its potential. There's just a glimmer of a chance that the SDSR will look at that.

Re OP, I tend to agree with those who think it's less of an issue than it is a good tabloid headline.

[FODPlod]

Aircraft carriers carry aircraft to defend the carrier which needs defending because it carries aircraft which defend the .........

(Yes, I know it's old school but how much of the UK's future carrier capability is still a self-licking lollipop?)

I don't think that's all our carriers (or anyone else's) were doing during CORPORATE, GRANBY, BOLTON, DENY FLIGHT, DELIBERATE FORCE, PALLISER, TELIC, HERRICK, ELLAMY, etc., or are doing during INHERENT RESOLVE, do you? They're not just floating airfields performing reruns of the Battle of Britain, you know. ;)

[MSOCS]

Autobit,

If, in this particular case, the measure of SQEP lies in how much time one has spent onboard a big-deck carrier then there are very few and probably none at the highest levels of Defence with that experience. However, most appreciate there are many at the coal face serving today on USN CVNs getting the experience the UK needs for the future. This all takes time. So it'll be a while until a 3 or 4-star has such.

In the meantime we have some very Joint and excellent VSOs who are very adept at running capital programmes for the UK.

I believe the choice in AM Hillier reflects that rationale. He has previously sat on the CEPP Executive Steering Board as a senior member in his role as DCDS(Eqpt and Cap) He understands the programme extremely well and has the relationships at hand to forge success. If he didn't he would not have been selected; it's simple as that.

Unfortunately, retired, parochial 1SLs see this as an affront. Yet more zest in the eye of Royal Naval capability. Ludicrous comments such as, "...barking mad" in tabloid farcical media stories only shows the rest of the country and world that they don't understand what Joint means. When the RN last put to sea on a large deck carrier, they owned their embarked aircraft. That isn't the case any more and nor will it be. The aircraft are Joint assets. The Carrier Strike Programme is Joint and the latest VSO at the helm is Joint.

[Heathrow Harry]

"we have some very Joint and excellent VSOs who are very adept at running capital programmes for the UK."

where have they been for the last 30 years?

MoD programmes are notorious for being late, wayyyyy over budget and lacking in features originally spec'd -maybe it was all teh fault of those wicked Civil Servants and politco's tho'

[exuw]

They say that common sense and comedy are two sides of the same thing running at different speeds.

What worries me (as a mere civvie) is that so much of the banter on this site amply demonstrates that service tribalism has often replaced common sense in the equation.

Which means that the banter is no longer funny and rather generates a certain sadness. :sad:

Aren't you all supposed to be in this together against the enemies of our Sovereign Queen?

Like alfred_the_great, I call the O/P as a wah.

[Union Jack]

Ah! For the Halcyon days when the Skipper was an Ex Buccaneer pilot - David Parry

Or even - gasp! - a Harrier pilot....:D

Jack

[Haraka]

Gilbert and Sullivan
The First Lord's Song
"HMS Pinafore"


I know that I am not the only one smiling at this....

"Stick close by your desks and never go to sea"....... ..etc.etc.

[Sun Who]

Who appointed him?


Sun.

[FODPlod]

Who appointed him?

My money is on Sir Bernard Gray, Chief of Defence Materiel and Head of Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S). As a 3* responsible for delivering a joint (strategic?) capability, Sir Stephen Hillier will probably be reporting direct to him anyway, just like his equally-ranking counterparts, the Chiefs of Materiel for Fleet, Land and Air.

[Cazalet33]

An Air Marshall to run a ship?

Can you imagine how many Group Captains will be needed to staff the F-35s on that boat?

[Ali Qadoo]

Whether or not Lord West is right that it's barking mad to have a light blue officer running the show, I'd say it's at least East Ham (one stop short of Barking) that we've ended up with the following:

1. No shore-based MPA to protect the assets
2. RN with only 6 attack submarines to protect the carriers and do all their other tasks
3. Too few RN surface ships to protect the carriers etc
4. Going for a deadweight lift fan ac and thereby imposing the associated ski-jump configuration on these 2 v expensive targets. Therefore:i) No embarked fixed-wing MPA or ASW assets
ii) No embarked AWACS, AAR or EW/ELINT ac
iii) No possibility of CoD
Woof, woof.

[Tourist]

2. RN with only 6 SSKs to protect the carriers and do all their other tasks


When did we get SSKs?

Perhaps we should be run by RAF officers. We obviously don't even know what we have!!:ooh:

[Ali Qadoo]

Not SSKs, wrong terminology. Thanks, Tourist, for pointing out my mistake. Post duly edited.

[Not_a_boffin]

My money is on Sir Bernard Gray, Chief of Defence Materiel and Head of Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S). As a 3* responsible for delivering a joint (strategic?) capability, Sir Stephen Hillier will probably be reporting direct to him anyway, just like his equally-ranking counterparts, the Chiefs of Materiel for Fleet, Land and Air.

Hate to ruin the OPs fishing (good job!), but the actual appointment is DCDS Mil Cap. It's the post in MB that fights the budget battles for capability.

The Director Carrier strike who works for him is an RN 2* and there's a light blue 1* who works for him running the CEPP desk....

Not for the first time Lord West is not showing himself as a beacon of common sense...

[WhiteOvies]

Lord West is always good for a Tabloid headline! MSOCS and NaBs posts cover the reality of the situation. I do not know of anyone else currently in Dark Blue getting too upset about this.

Ali, the choice of Carrier design and aircraft is covered elsewhere on here but don't believe everything you read in the media about F-35B. Take both positive and negative with a pinch of salt to find the truth in the middle.

On your other points - rotary assets can do a pretty good job in the roles described, fixed wing aircraft are not really required, although F-35B ISTAR capability is useful. So:

i) Merlin Mk 2 is a potent ASW asset, possibly the best rotary ASW platform in the world at the moment. A lot of improvements over the Mk 1.

ii) Crowsnest AEW helo (Merlin bagger) has announced which design won the competition and Thales are working on further testing at the moment. AAR refueling may be an issue. EW/ELINT capability is built into F-35.

iii) CoD doesn't have to be done by a Greyhound. On CVS and Ocean we did/do CoD with Lynx, Merlin and occassionally had stuff flown out to us by V-22. As V-22 has been modded to enable it to fit the largest F-35 engine components in the back, I'm sure people are looking at how the UK can work with our US friends if the need arises. Going back to ii) the V-22 has also done trials as a V/STOL AAR asset. Whilst too expensive for the UK to buy V-22 there is no reason to think that we couldn't host US assets, if the operational situation calls for it.