Let's be frank...

[radiodude]

So I've been reading on this forum and other aviation blogs that a career in aviation is not worth chasing because you'll:

A) Won't find a job
B) Work for almost nothing if you're lucky to have a job
C) End up bitter and twisted and leave aviation mainly because of A and B plus dealing with the selected few dishonest/used car salesman type in the industry.

I know that everyone isn't like that because I'm VERY lucky to know and flown with some of the most experienced pilots who would do anything for anyone.

But let's be frank...

How much of the talk is true when it comes to no work or continuous low income? For me I've already invested $20,000 to gain a PPL. I've saved another $30,000 to make that a CPL... So there $50,000 gone! Now that's just the start. Ad another $20,000 for an instructor rating and if I wanted another $23,000 for an instrument rating (ill get to that in a sec).

So we invest this much money to train for jobs that don't exist... Paid very low whilst putting up with mean/selfish/awful people? I don't understand.

NOW the OPEN question... There's talk that there'll be a need for xxxxxx pilots soon. Where I ask? Ok maybe some new Asian airlines will compete locally but that's not enough get GA pilots into RPT... And GA jobs. Where have they gone and why have they gone?

Once I finish my CPL I'll get an instructor rating... Will I find any work in Sydney? Would it be wise to get a MECIR as well or would that be a waste as it won't be used so early in a career... And non instructing jobs. What is there? It'll be hard to leave 2 kids to go chase charter that might never come through.

I'm scratching my head thinking... Will it get better?... Will Avaition grow like it deserves?...

Let's be frank and discuss...

[MadMadMike]

Not much to discuss. If you won't leave Sydney you won't get a job. If you don't get a job you won't progress. If you don't progress you won't last.

GA is not going to grow. It's dying or actively being killed.

[kingRB]

Looks like you have a realistic idea how the industry is already.

Either have the tenure to endure the never ending barrage of **** it throws at you, or move on. The key is trying to find that balance where the job is awesome and you don't have w@nkers running the show. It's a rarity. Not worth throwing a hundred grand at to get qualified unless you really really want it - other life choices / responsibilities not withstanding.

As for waiting for the next fabled pilot employment boom, are you willing to wait 10+ years to see if it even happens?

[Derfred]

Well, since we're being frank, going bush for your first job is hardly new in this country, that's what I had to do for a few years (some decades ago). It turned out to be some of the best fun I have ever had, once I eventually found a job.

The good news could be that many of your colleagues are thinking the same as you, and may not go through with it, meaning less pilots competing with you for the jobs.

It has always been the case that if you really want it badly enough, you'll get there. If you don't, you probably won't. So that's the decision you need to be making. A couple of kids makes it harder, granted, but not impossible.

Just when I thought I'd never find my first job, I found one, but I worked hard to find it - travelling around the outback and meeting people. But it wouldn't have come up if I'd been sitting at home in a big city just mailing out out resumes. You do have to get out there, unless you are just lucky enough to have something land in your lap. With a raw CPL, it's your personality, attitude and drive that gets you your first job, not your ace flying skills. So the fact that you are questioning it now may say something about your attitude and drive - don't let your potential first employer know that!

The choice between MECIR and instructor rating depends on what you are hoping for or expecting for your first job. If you land a charter job, the instructor rating is useless. If you land an instructing job, an MECIR is useless (initially). So research is required into what kind of job you are likely to get (as a first job). Instructing will probably keep you closer to an urban centre, but is anyone hiring raw CPL instructors presently? I don't know. Up to you to find out. Regardless, you will need a MECIR eventually for a good job, but instructing may be better for your first job, in your situation, if you can find one.

There are still rewarding flying careers out there. Good luck with your decision making.

[Username here]

13 19 01....

[TrailBoss]

Radiodude, I am one of those old timers who spent forty odd years in aviation starting on Cessna 180s and ending up on B-747s. I have held all of the usual posts, check and training, chief pilot and DFO.

If I had to name the one quality above all that is required to succeed in aviation, it is “Self Motivation”

Stay motivated, and be prepared to broaden your horizons and you will ultimately reach your goal.

You will not be disappointed.

[prospector]

It'll be hard to leave 2 kids to go chase charter that might never come through.

Just from personal experience, it is better to be a couple of rungs up the ladder before family arrives, you must be able to go where the work is until such time as you have the experience to pick and choose.

[caa]

There is also an advantage if your partner has good qualifications, to get a great start job in a remote area (small town). She/he gets government/mine job in said town you get flying as required. A low income at this point may not be a problem if your partner gets free or heavy house subsidy + more, You may get more quality time with your kids in a great environment for several years.

[cattletruck]

Just marry some fugly sob sister whose daddy left her with lots of money, then going away to find work will become self-motivating.

The game is all about who you know and who knows you, not so much what you know. This anecdote applies to all the good professional jobs.

I sometimes wish I'd stuck with it because only now do I realise just how incredibly privileged I was with my network, alas circumstances dictated I follow another path. Que sera sera.

[rmcdonal]

How much of the talk is true when it comes to no work or continuous low income?
Depends on what you consider a low income. $60k maybe enough in a Country town where your house costs $200k, but not in Sydney where it is now $1Mil.
GA is unlikely to pay out much above $80k, and even then you are looking at a management or CASA position. The airlines will pay more but you need to get a foot in the (right) door.

Paid very low whilst putting up with mean/selfish/awful people?
Depends on where and who you work for. The same people work in the airlines too, just read any thread on CX or EK. It also depends on what you consider 'low Pay', if your goal is to be a pilot to make lost of money then you should cut your losses now and take up a trade, or banking instead.

There's talk that there'll be a need for xxxxxx pilots soon. Where I ask? If you look at the data from Boeing (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/market/)and Airbus (http://www.airbus.com/company/market/forecast/) the need for pilots is going to be in SE Asia, mainly China. There is also likely to be a demand in the US, but more than likely it will be filled by pilots moving home. There is also a shortage of pilots in the Middle East. However just because some regions are short does not mean they will take anyone. They can train their own cadets, and receive a known product, before they take on 200hr pilots from abroad.

And GA jobs. Where have they gone and why have they gone? Zero future fleet planning, a heavy reliance on tourism, CASA, and poor management. GA is moving into RA or turbine operations. If you want to fly on the weekend fly RA, if you want ME IFR you will need a turbine. It will cost more, the public will be less willing to pay, GA will contract. The only industry likely to expand inside GA is Flight Instruction, and no the local aero club, but the big boys, think anyone with a SE Asian contract. I wont go into AG, you need AG time just to get into AG, hence the average age must be over 50 these days.

Will I find any work in Sydney? Depends on who you do your Instructor Rating with. Most schools only employ their own. They get a known product, and it makes them look good as they get "employment" for their students. Will it pay much? Nope. All the other jobs are hunted for by those up North trying to get home with their 500 Multi Command, or 1500TT.

Would it be wise to get a MECIR as well or would that be a waste as it won't be used so early in a career... And non instructing jobs. What is there? What do you want to do? Instruct? or be a charter pilot? Where is you goal? If you want to instruct then skip the IFR rating until later, you can't use it until you get training approval anyway, and that wont be for some time. If you want to fly charter then skip the Instructor rating, dead weight if you are not going to be focusing on it.

Will it get better? No

Will Aviation grow like it deserves? No

Now lets be frank You have 2 kids, that puts you into the early 30s late 20s bracket, puts you 10 years behind everyone else in the same bucket. You have a requirement to look after them and not just you, so your flexibility is limited. Your ability to be trained is reduced when compared to a late teen early twenties pilot so you cost more to train up. You are likely to stay for a longer period of time with any one employer and so you are more likely to have an issue with the terms and conditions of your employment (however you are also more stable to an employer, so that is seen as a good thing). Realistically you need to be in an airline or large flying school in order to get the lifestyle guarantees you need with a family. The pay these days for a senior instructor is more than the starting pay at all the regionals, but the 'end game' pay is less. The unlikely that Qantas and Virgin are going to pick you up, age vs hrs you are a long way behind your group (at 30 with less than 5,000hrs), but hey they do sometimes pick at random.

Not the news you were after? Sorry :(

[mostlytossas]

Always thought a good comparison to the aviation industry in terms of opportunity and likelihood to get to the top tiers is the entertainment industry. With so many people with stars in their eyes.
Both are like a huge triangle. If you are lucky enough to get to the top the rewards and lifestyle are great that few people ever experience. However there are huge numbers at the bottom that never get even close to the top or even off the bottom rung. Are the odds and cost worth the risk? Only you can decide. I was given this advise back in the early 80's and he same holds true today.( Unless you have very good connections). If you want to make money, find another career. If you just want to enjoy flying, find another career and fly privately.

[Centaurus]

All good advice so far. Regardless of everything else, if you decide to press on with making a flying career, then IMHO your priority is to obtain an instrument rating. Sooner or later when learning to fly you will probably inadvertently enter cloud while trying to remain visual. History indicates that could be fatal. Same if night flying on a moonless dark night without proper instrument flying training from a competent instructor who has a current instrument rating.

Many instructors do not have instrument ratings but are still allowed to teach simulated instrument flying for PPL and CPL students. The blind leading the blind but perfectly legal.

An instrument rating is included in the RAAF 220 hour Pilot Course, so that must tell you something. Instrument flying is taught soon after first solo in the RAAF. That also tells you something about priority.

With very good simulators (FTD's) in most flying schools, the number of hours needed in the real aircraft for an instrument flying course has been reduced greatly from former years. To be a competent all-weather pilot (and not just a sunny day pilot), you will need to have a current instrument rating. After all, isn't that what you are aiming to be one day? :ok:

[2EggOmelette]

Lots of info so far for you.
But consider where you ultimately want to end up. Airlines? Then you will need twin IFR time. Hard to get, and expensive getting there. But not impossible, any old hours will do really, however, some are worth more than others. Look at the ATPL requirements, have your instructors bothered much with your night flying component of the course? If I were to do it all again, I would certainly have done more than 10 bloody hours of night flying before I graduated and it would have been money well spent.
GA? Plenty of options. Instructor rating will get those first few hours up. Meat bombing and glider towing are good for that as well, and they often need part timers. The big bonus there is that there is always movement.
Set small goals as sub sets of a larger goal.
If you can't relocate (I know how that one goes, I have kids as well), then it will all depend on who you know.

Good luck.

[HarleyD]

Wow! Thirteen responses so far and a depth of pessimism I have never previously seen, even on this forum.

This is surely a reflection of the current industry situation, albeit a jaundiced one considering the sample space of those here.

GA has fulfilled my dreams for travel, experience and the ability to meet a huge amount of aviation minded people. It's been a hard road but after 40 years in the industry I have ticked a lot of boxes. I only ever wanted to fly GA and the thought of being stuck on a tin tube, sharing sectors with the AP and the FO never appealed.

I have ended up with lots of ratings endos and several foreign certificates licences etc, flown in about 30 countries, and clocked up a fair few hours, every one of them a real experience. Still flying and gaining qualifications and moving up into even more interesting roles. GA has a lot to offer. It's not all instructing and scenics.

The bad news, I am financially miles behind the airlines friends I have, I even earn less than an acquaintance of mine who works on a night railways repair crew by a factor of half. And works similar hours.

It cost me a marriage and a dislocated relationship with my first two children, the toughest bit. It almost turned me alcoholic being away so much, and flying all day in rural and remote locations, but kept my eyes on the prize, even when it was tough, and the outlook was bleak.

I have worked for liars and opportunists, but after a while I got to the stage of selecting my bosses, not the other way round. Eventually I became sought as a reliable and capable throttle jockey by people who have given me amazing opportunities, if not vast amounts of $$$$$$

It can be very rewarding, but it is not simple or easy and there are few good jobs, there are plenty of shonks, above and below you, BUT, there is life there if you persist, and are a half reasonable pilot who is honest and reliable.

Cheers

HD

[megan]

TrailBoss - If I had to name the one quality above all that is required to succeed in aviation, it is “Self Motivation”

Stay motivated, and be prepared to broaden your horizons and you will ultimately reach your goal.

You will not be disappointed. :ok:Chase the vision, not the money; the money will end up following you.

[hoopdreams]

It can be a long hard road, but usually if you stick with it you'll get there. As mentioned previously, the guys with patience, perseverance, self motivation and good attitude go far. It also helps to take the opportunities when they come your way, and usually you have to make things happen yourself.

[mattyj]

You have limited experience, you need an excellent salary, you want to be involved in aviation,
Simple; become part of the problem, join CASA..you couldn't do worse than the current staff..?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The mooted expansion will likely be very different to what you imagine.

You will never be the valued employee you may have been had your career started 30+ years ago. You will be trained down to a price and as quickly as possible rather than to a standard.

They will use words like "safety", "lifestyle", "fatigue management". They will try to convince you they care about your wellbeing and work life balance. They will exhibit the exact opposite traits when it suits them. Complain and you can/will be replaced by another candidate keen to "make a go of it". The regulator will continue to give concessions to airlines in the interests of workforce flexibility and efficiency. They will do it with a perfunctory "risk analysis".

You will spend your life knowing that there is always somebody who will do your job cheaper than you and that outsourcing is always an option. You will spend your life making compromises that will see you get less and give more.

Finally, that family you are reluctant to leave, may wind up leaving you once the carcinogen that is airline management gets a hold of you.

If you love to fly, get a ppl and go flying. Have a day job that pays for it.

Go on holidays with that family of yours and put them ahead of your career. Live happily ever after while you watch this industry falter.

Sincere apologies for the negativity but you did want to be frank. All the best!

[4Greens]

Join the RAAF. They pay for you to fly. There will be jobs available when you leave.

[nightmode]

Hi I'm Frank... :E (sorry, couldn't resist),
It's a hard question, there is a lot of negativity, but, there are also good sides - like in any industry I guess.

There doesn't seem to be much growth in Aus at the moment, most of it is in Asia. As other guys mentioned, cadets and their own training programs are happening which cover their internal requirements.

That said, there are still aeroplanes flying and stuff still needs to move from place to place. People move on and positions do open up.
It really is a matter of who you know and if you're seen as an OK guy.
Not sure what it's like in Sydney, but, capital city first jobs are like hens teeth.

I think that an MECIR is a good thing to have early on, as it does give you more capability to get jobs done. Taking time off through work to do it becomes harder as time goes on, I think if you have a chance do get it earlier, the better - and use it as much as possible (even if it's an occasional blast in IMC with a few friends).

Operator wise, there are some real rough ones who you'll figure out it's not worth working for, and some that are pretty good. It's not worth risking your life and license for anyone who asks for anything dodgy.

Salary wise, it's has been pushed right down :( - Won't get rich doing it.

Operators margins are very thin which makes it a tough industry for operators to survive! That also means that it might not take much for an operator to suffer if any unexpected costs come up (Engine making metal, New AD's, ADSB upgrades (they have been coming for a long time), etc...

If there's a way to have the best of both worlds - an existing job that pays the bills and has good stability, and another part time gig instructing and doing random charters that might be an option?...