Airliner Design Dilemma

[pax britanica]

With the recent publicity about squeezing in additional seats on the T7 and 78 to increase the capacity at the expense of pax comfort it occurs to me that Boeing while making hugely successful aircraft in terms of sales didn't do a very good job for the end user (Pax) by making the aircraft too narrow for the optimum number of seats abreast in Y.

oddly Boeing in designing the 76 made it one of the very best planes to fly on as passenger as 2-3-2 is really nice compared say to the DC10 and the dreaded middle block of 5 seats.

However with all that experience why di they not build the T7 a tad wider to accommodate the 747 standard 10 abreast and similarly allow for an extra seat width wise on the 787.

Obviously there are costs involved but it seems to be a bit of a Boeing thing to skimp on width apart from the mighty 74 and the aforementioned 767.

So my question is when they do the huge amount of design work do they take a conscious decision that we will build it this width and if airlines want to risk loads by overcrowding that's there problem.
Of the the biggest contrast in this is to fly on a 380 which is wonderfully comfortable in all classes and a 777 which can feel very cramped by comparison and for my tastes does wallow around quite a bit in the cruise.

PB

[Peter47]

Its interesting that the Tristar & DC10 were very similar aircraft but the former had a slightly wider cabin and generally had 10 abreast seating in economy whereas the DC10 had 9, slightly wider seats.

I've often wondered why the 777 cabin wasn't slightly wider so that it could accommodate 10 abreast seating, but it would have been less comfortable. The 350 was redesigned as the 350XWB to meet airline requirements and that is it - manufacturers will consult airlines and try to accommodate their (often differing) requirements. After all they are the buyers in an often competitive market.

The trouble is whatever the width the airlines can put more seats in. Many operators have ten abreast in 777. Air Transat are 9 abreast in A310/330s, Britannia used to have 8 abreast seating in their 767s. Inhuman but it lowers unit costs. Passengers seem to prefer price over comfort.

If you are cynical you could point out that this will encourage travel in premium economy which is generally more profitable for the airlines.

P.S. Any bets as to when an airline will install 11 abreast seating in the A380 main deck? I bit it will happen although I hope I'm wrong.

[ChickenHouse]

What would be the densest sphere packing for human bodies, including forced ventilation between, of course? If laid down, women AND men ;-) , one could scrape off half the heights of the fuselage, pack twice the number of presumed corpse and still have better drag efficiency, BUT will it be fun to fly?

[Phileas Fogg]

I'll stick with Airbus thanks, the A330/A340 in 2/4/2 config and when I need to 777 it Cathay do 9 across seating in economy with fantastic catering and cabin service thrown in.

[Heathrow Harry]

"What would be the densest sphere packing for human bodies"

Google "slave ships images"

[PAXboy]

Neigbouring thread http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/568867-another-airbus-patent-sleeping-box.html

[tdracer]

The 767 was designed for 7 across in economy, but 'provisioned' for 8 across. Few operators chose to use 8 across (thankfully). The 777 was designed for 8 across, but 'provisioned' for 9 across. For many years most operators used 8 across, but in the last 10 years 9 across has unfortunately become common. The 787 was designed for 8 across, but 'provisioned' for 9 across - sadly 9 across has become the preferred configuration. Sadly, that's what happens when the SLF shop by price, not by value :rolleyes: (true story - I recently went into the Boeing travel site to book travel - it would not let me book my preferred flight because it was $4 more than the cheapest option - that's right, four lousy dollars :ugh:).


BTW, there will be some small relief coming on the 777X. Boeing is reworking the fuselage sidewall to make the interior ~6 inches wider.

[ExXB]

The space below for baggage / freight containers and pallets also have influence over cabin width. Don't want to chuck out all those old containers, and you do want to fill all the available space.

[Phileas Fogg]

The 777 was designed for 8 across, but 'provisioned' for 9 across. For many years most operators used 8 across, but in the last 10 years 9 across has unfortunately become common.

Try 10 across:

SeatGuru Seat Map Air France Boeing 777-300ER (77W) Four Class (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_France/Air_France_Boeing_777-300_C.php)

[Cymmon]

Qatar airways on the B777, have 2-2-2 in Business and 3-3-3 in economy, better than most other airlines including Emirates.....

[ExXB]

AC has this monster SeatGuru Seat Map Air Canada Boeing 777-300ER (77W) Three Class (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_Boeing_777-300ER_77W_new.php)

458 seats in 3 classes (J/W/Y) including 10 abreast in Y. Rumour has it that AC staff have been banned from taking carry-on, space is so tight.

[El Bunto]

Well it's industry practice to lay the blame for high-density upon passengers shopping by price but since airlines have decided to compete primarily on price what else is Joe Public meant to do*?

When a BA 777 flight is a few quid more than Emirates, BA should be shouting that they are nine-abreast and offer 11% MORE SEAT SPACE. But they don't so Joe just sees two top-tier airlines offering 777 flights and picks the cheapest. Logically enough, since no other metric for distinction is presented.

Then the airline blames Joe for being too price-sensitive and decides to cram-in more Joes to keep revenue up...


* of course folk on this forum and Those Other Ones know how to select an airline by other metrics, but that's a small minority of overall passengers.

[Piltdown Man]

...what else is Joe Public meant to do?

Go by ship or rail or do as I do; and not bother traveling in the first place. I cannot stand flying. It's no longer exotic and the people I want to escape from are already at the place I'm traveling to.

PM

[tdracer]

Try 10 across:


Sorry, brain fart - indeed the 777 was designed for 9 across, provisioned for 10 across.:O In my defense, I posted that after my bedtime :E

[pax britanica]

I am a bit puzzled -not hard to do- what does designed for 9 across provisioned for 10 across actually mean-, you cannot after all change the shape of the fuselage , I know you can use thinner insulation and inner shells and the like, narrow the aisles and make provision weight and performance wise for more pax than the base design seating . so does designed mean the physical dimensions are based on 9 a breast but the aircraft performance is adequate for 10 abreast if the airline chooses to narrow the aisles and seats etc

Am I right on that?
PB

[tdracer]

During the design phase, you design for a theoretical maximum passenger load. That determines such thing as the floor strength, number and location of exits, etc. For single aisle, it's pretty straight forward - determine a minimum seat pitch then count how many rows of seats that provides (I don't think anyone is going to try 7 across on a single aisle).
Wide body it's somewhat more complex (at least in theory, you could put 9 across on a 767). Then the manufacturer certifies for that maximum passenger load - doing things like evacuation tests, etc.
It used to be the only time those max numbers were approached in service was low cost charter operations (first long aircraft trip I ever took was 250 passengers on a DC-8 charter :eek:). But with today's low cost models, scheduled carriers are now regularly approaching those max numbers.


El Bunto - many carriers have some sort of "premium economy" that provide extra room (and sometimes better service/food) at extra cost. Premium economy has proved so overwhelmingly popular that there are usually less premium economy seats than First/Business class seats (and they would often go empty if not for complementary upgrades to frequent flyers).:ugh:

[DaveReidUK]

I don't think anyone is going to try 7 across on a single aisle

Yes, nobody would be that daft, would they?

http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/images/1ecabin.jpg

[PAXboy]

DaveReidUK May one guess that was a 707/DC8 sized single aisle? I suspect that tdracer was thinking about modern narrow bodies?

[tdracer]

Holy :mad: DR - who and what is that?

[DaveReidUK]

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/532324-channel-tridents-3-4-seating-7-abreast.html

[esa-aardvark]

I travelled to NZ by sea in 2012. Southampton to Port Klang, and then Fremantle
to Wellington. Very relaxing, but it does take more time than many people have.
Was about six weeks or so. So mostly I stick to Air. The journey by sea is not that easy to plan & book.

[Phileas Fogg]

Well it's industry practice to lay the blame for high-density upon passengers shopping by price but since airlines have decided to compete primarily on price what else is Joe Public meant to do*?

A few years ago I travelled outward CDG/SIN on an AF 777-300 (10 across) and returned MNL/AMS on a KL 777-200 (9 across).

The night CDG/SIN was a particularly uncomfortable experience and not one I wish to repeat, the return in 9 across seating, despite it being a 14 hour sector in the days when I was a smoker, was OK and an experience I would repeat except that I thereafter learned that KL were re-configuring their -200's to 10 across seating.

So what is Joe Public meant to do? ... Well this Joe Public, should I need to return to UK, will check airliner seat plans to realise, before booking, if the airline is 'extracting the Michael'.

Most recently I flew CX long-haul, although a combination of B747/A340/A330 they have since replaced their B747's with B777's. I was so impressed by their catering and overall service, and that they are one of the few airlines that operate in/out of my most convenient international airport (CEB), that I'll happily utilise them time and time again and particularly since I learned their B777's are 9 across seating.

That is what Joe Public is meant to do, check airliner seat plans before booking!

[OverRun]

Two rules of thumb that have stood me well over time. Never book LH or AC. A quick scan of the posts above will show why.