HKPA Offer!!!

[CowardlyPilot]

Just hoping to hear a rumour on the offer/negotiated amount that may or may not be presented to the pilot body in the coming days?

Anyone?

[AQIS Boigu]

I hope it will be good but I am a bit pessimistic - with some recent new joiners exceeding the experience levels of some pre-2008 B-scale hires why would CX be interested in changing anything.

The industry must be pretty ****e out there when we still have people with 737 time, regional jets and regional turboprops coming to CX on C-scale. :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

[Mark_Tuck]

Say approx 1000 pilots are on HKPA, I would be very surprised if the increase was significant, especially when they were boasting of how generous they were with their previous attempted 20% increase.
As AQIS says, there are plenty of people applying, and in the eyes of the beancounters who have ruined / ruining this airline, that is all that seems to matter.

[Trafalgar]

The only people coming to CX are those that truly don't understand the real facts. Having flown with countless disillusioned, demoralised and frustrated SO's, the common denominator is they 'just didn't really understand' the reality of living in HK on a derisory salary and 'housing' allowance. Twenty years ago, NO one would have come to HK without housing....for a reason. If it's such a great deal, then why doesn't AT get a HKPA...?

[Eyes only]

Fun fact, ATs housing allowance is greater than the entire HKPA budget.

[cxorcist]

"Twenty years ago, NO one would have come to HK without housing....for a reason. If it's such a great deal, then why doesn't AT get a HKPA...?"

True, and think about how much cheaper housing and other costs of living were back then... The housing allowance was originally offered such that a pilot could keep his/her property in his home country and also rent/buy something decent in Hong Kong. This was the only way to attract qualified pilots to Hong Kong. Now, CX recruits some qualified and mostly unqualified pilots on very similar packages and expects them to live in squalor their entire careers.

Until cadets start leaving in droves, this won't change. The question is... Are you going to be one of those who leaves or the one who stays HOPING things will get better someday???

[BillytheKid]

Hate to say it, but HKPA must be appropriate. Not many are leaving, in spite of whinging and threats. Is it because they have nowhere else to go? Why should CX pay more if people keep queing up to join?

[iPahlot]

Given I know very little about the exact T&C's, I am curious as to how fellow Aussies, or even our US counterparts that may have worked in some very expensive localities whilst earning two bits of :mad: all, flying a clapped out piston find the actual housing T&C's?

I'm most definitely condoning lowering of conditions, and understand that these T&C's are a long way from how things used to be. However, "back in the day" people also dressed up to go flying and didn't pay more for the taxi to the airport than the flight across the country.

[controlledrest]

Nothing will change unless guys walk. Guys won't walk once the golden handcuffs take their vice grip - hence the bond. Until the industry bins seniority COS will only continue to get worse.

[Will IB Fayed]

Nothing will change unless guys walk.
Hate to say it, but HKPA must be appropriate. Not many are leaving, in spite of whinging and threats
with some recent new joiners exceeding the experience levels

Couldn't agree more. I find it quite hilarious when one of the spikey hair brigade have a whine about how poorly done by they are. Why would CX feel the need to increase HKPA???? They are getting the new hires they want, and very few are leaving. Sounds to me like the package is spot on? What am I missing?

[CowardlyPilot]

Soon, whether it's 1,2,5,10 years, c scale will be majority and hence hold the power of the Union.

If we don't all band together now and take care of each other then when c scalers have the power, there will be no housing.

Your response will be "Aw yeah, we will just leave then and the airline will be f***ed" but where will you go? First year FO at American?

Let's just pull together and look out for each other.

[iPahlot]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have the yearly break downs for 1st to N year FO, SFO, Junior Captain, Captain etc for each of the A, B and now C scale?

it's be interesting to chart the new and old scales to get a good understanding of how things have changed.

[mngmt mole]

Almost ANY other expat package is now superior to that of CX. Why?, because CX continue to pretend that you aren't expats. To treat all cadets as 'local' ignores the profound fact that for some, HK is local, because they were born here and have roots here. For most of the cadets, they ARE expats. Many of the local pilots have been given property by their parents. They can educate their children in the local chinese public schools. Neither of those huge cost saving aspects are available to the foreign born cadets. Nearly any other option in the expat pilot world will prove to be far superior. Get away now, while you still can. There truly is NO future here if you wish to have the normal things in life, like a wife/children/savings....

[Captn_Kirk]

You guys really believe the union has got anything to say about HKPA or housing?

Right now, the company can't afford to reduce housing.
The day the can afford it, they will. Union or not.

Seeing how succesfull (not!) the CC campaign is with regards to our RPs, I doubt HKPA will improve much.
The day the company doesn't attract any new joiners is the day HKPA will improve.

[BillytheKid]

"Market forces"

[cxorcist]

Kirk,

Are you being rostered any differently now than you were under RP07?
If not, how do you know the CC campaign is not working?
Also, there might be some legal proceedings that are making CX think again.

Don't be so negative. We are kicking their asses right now. It only gets worse for them as A350s begin to arrive next year. Think about all that long haul and training!!!

Maybe, just maybe, they have a huge problem and are staring down the barrel of the gun. Most probably, they are most concerned with who ducks and who gets their heads blown off. Note how there has been many ungrateful exits recently, most of them from 3rd floor or ex-3rd floor managers. I'm thinking that FOP is a rather dangerous place to be working these days. Let's keep it that way!!!

[Captn_Kirk]

Cxorcist, I hope you're right.
But I can see why the managers don't want to give in. Because if they do, we'll just carry on for another item, and another one, and another one...
(RPs, HKPA, 25y housing)
Not saying we are wrong of course.
Actually we really should have everything sorted before we come out of CC.
But I'm sure that's what THEY are thinking. And they'd rather try to break our campaign.
I think it's gonna be a looooong fight.

(PS for our managers: It doesn't have to be. Just get us back RP07, effectively no change to 6 months ago; sign a 25y housing deal, effectively saving money to the company; with that saved money, up HKPA. Send me a cheque for solving all your problems. Done!)

[cxorcist]

Agree with you, CN Kirk.

Unfortunately, their bonuses are hanging the balance. I doubt such a deal is forthcoming. So, please call in sick up to 30 days per year, certainly no less than 20. That, the training ban, and CC will cumulatively put tremendous pressure on the Company. They can try to outlast us, but we really have very little to lose at this stage. The career at CX is bare bones for most. Try another 49er tactic? Sure, but you will probably get a strike from 80%+ of the pilots. Where does that put you?

AT and IC, try not to destroy the airline. It's not worth it. Fall on your sword and sacrifice your bonuses for the betterment of the employees and customers alike.

[broadband circuit]

So, please call in sick up to 30 days per year, certainly no less than 20

Maybe.... or alternatively depending upon which fleet you're on, minimise sickness, and hit 900 hours, and get 30 days off anyway.

[cxorcist]

BC,

No, they manage the 900 hour problem that way to their liking. We want it our way. The key is to alternate between sickness and EFP months. On any given month, make it your goal to do no more than 60 credit hours. The next month, you leave it alone and make heaps of EFP as they disrupt your roster in favor of longer flights. Then repeat the cycle. The key is to be as disruptive as possible and never hit anywhere close to 900 hours. If they get 900 hours from everyone, there is no problem. The problems are caused by those far under 900 and generally making life miserable for crew control.

[broadband circuit]

Good points cxorcist.

I like the way you think......

[Avinthenews]

As predicted, you're entitled to SFA!

A nice litmus test to see how we react and then on to reducing expat terms no doubt.

[clear.right]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am disappointed, but surprisingly, not surprised.

When will you see it our way, and accept the HKPA as it is?

Yes, HK is expensive, see above point.

Don't make us (managers) feel bad and raise emotions, you liars.

I'm so sorry, we can't find days that work for all to keep negotiating. ISD hold all the power, and they won't use their magic wand to give us days off to negotiate.

Additionally, here is a backdating carrot... Lets just have the mediator mediate on that.

Finally, these negotiations are annoying, just hurry up and accept the pineapple.

If you have any questions, please email me at PFO#[email protected]

[clear.right]

I wish I was that eloquent Dan Buster.

Just trying to dumb down all those fancy paragraphs and sentences into something more easily digestible.

[mngmt mole]

....you dumbed it down so much no one can understand what you are saying. Give up.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Just flew with two new S/O's, both with thousands of hours, one a former captain.

[betpump5]

Just flew with two new S/O's, both with thousands of hours, one a former captain.

Yet all this industry can offer them is this toilet. Makes you sick doesn't it.

[Natca]

Yes this is true, there are several guys in the pipeline with 5000 plus hours and some with a good amont of jet time. The majority of them though are low time turboprop types though.

[Avinthenews]

This is the end result of pilots having a seniority system, airlines can screw the conditions down and down knowing pilots A. Are unable to leave and join the bottom of a new list and B. Forced to sacrifice everything to actually get on the list.

When will we realise seniority now benefits them more than us!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well, it's not a democracy, innit? Seniority is not our choice, it's theirs.

[clear.right]

....you dumbed it down so much no one can understand what you are saying. Give up.

Join the Aoa, and you will understand.
Enjoy working your G tmrw...

[Setright]

''The only people coming to CX are those that truly don't understand the real facts. Having flown with countless disillusioned, demoralised and frustrated SO's, the common denominator is they 'just didn't really understand' the reality of living in HK on a derisory salary and 'housing' allowance. Twenty years ago, NO one would have come to HK without housing....for a reason.''

Sat down with son number one who was considering Cathay offer and went through the numbers.

Spread sheet in hand with income projections together with actual rental rates sourced over the internet.

When he realised what the deal was........he promptly emailed HR with a thanks but no thanks.

He will stay in the home country and pitch for the jobs he wants or give the game away and activate plan B. [My advice, retired long haul]

[crwkunt roll]

Oh come on, plenty more spaces available in the A scale nepotism recruitment stream.