C90 operating costs

[Manubada]

Hi all,


Is there someone out there that can head some realistic operating costs, for the C90, in my direction pls?


Simplistic/realistic guides and/or formulas would help heaps.


PM's warmly welcomed.


Best all,


Manu'

[Aussie Bob]

There is not much to it, a straightforward little engine with no real problems. Put a bit aside for sticky valves or run mogas if you can, 16 - 24 litres per hour should pull up the fuel, with a quart of oil every 6 - 10 hours.

The biggest expense with this engine is the rebuild and the associated unknowns. Parts are getting scarce and if the crankcase or crankshaft are u/s you have a problem that may not be fixable. Talk to someone in an engine rebuild shop.

If it has plenty of hours to run, great, these engines seem sturdy, long lasting and reliable.

[HarleyD]

AussieBob

Do you do it on purpose boy?

C90 is different to C-90

B200 is different to O-200

Unless you are a Fly Baby aficionado and want to read pages of Harry Fenton's articles on fly baby.com (or fly baby.org, or pietenpol.whatever) I think we are talking -21's here.

Happy to be corrected if wrong.

This may help:

https://www.conklindd.com/t-turbopropvariablecost.aspx

Cheers Harry, catch up at OSH next year for beers maybe.

HD

[Car RAMROD]

C90 KingAir?

[dayzel87]

Or the c90/O-200 Continental Engine?

[tail wheel]

Put a bit aside for sticky valves or run mogas if you can, 16 - 24 litres per hour should pull up the fuel, with a quart of oil every 6 - 10 hours.

In a pair of PT6A-21 or -28 turbine engines..........????? :confused:

[troppo]

Some of your homework done here ..
http://www.utilityaircraft.com/750xloperatingcostcomparisonunfinanced41705.xls

[Manubada]

Oops...........I left out the PT6 part. Sorry to all for not being specific.


Looking at costing the C90 P & W.


Any and all responses appreciated.


Cheer's,


Manu'

[Aussie Bob]

At least I got the thread started :ok:

[pineappledaz]

Aussie Bob..and shows us that you have a tremendous amount of experience

[tail wheel]

C-90 Direct costs here: Aircraft Operating Cost -KING AIR 90 C90 (http://www.what2fly.com/manufacturer/operating_cost/BEECH/KING+AIR+90+C90/100)

I'd treat those costs and especially the engine cost ($60 per hour, per engine) with some scepticism. Also, there is no provision included for airframe and avionics maintenance.

An experienced commercial operator would probably not willingly operate a King Air C-90.

[Manubada]

Great effort from all.


Tail Wheel, your the "Wikipedia" of Aviation et al.


Thanks.


Manu'

[Jamair]

New ones are a pretty good private high(er) performance platform for those who want two noisemakers rather than the SE PC12, TBM et al. Older models are maintenance intensive which equals dollars.

Its realistically prob twice those cited costs to run per hour, adding the standing costs to the basic per-hour running cost.

[tail wheel]

Big Bird. There was a C90 in PNG many years ago, I forget the registration - maybe P2-PNB? It was a PNGBC corporate aircraft which was taken over by the Government and finally managed a wheel up at Jacksons, I think at the hands of CAA pilots?

[catseye]

r0ugh numbers

- what to fly maint cost in $US plus exchange rate plus gst/duty/etc plus 15% to 20% freight/insurance/customs clearance cost.

- fuel cost from home airport. try $1.80/litre

finance cost divided by projected hours flown. private ops try 200 hours

hull insurance cost 2-4 %

liability insurance - how much do you need???
airways/ nav/ landing charges at cost depending where operating from. source from ersa and ASA website

hangarage and maint ferry cost if not maintained at home field.

check and training?? may be an insurance requiremnt

an aileron or rotor blade costs more to freight than a fuel control unit or engine.

scary numbers yet???

if less than 200 hours probably cheaper to charter unless you need absolute availability.

Tailwheel,

there was an ex RFDS c90 in GKA doing on call medivac for institute of languages but not sure if still there.

[tail wheel]

Catseye

Tailwheel,

there was an ex RFDS c90 in GKA doing on call medivac for institute of languages but not sure if still there.

I thought the RFDS got out of C90s many, many years ago? I assume the "institute of languages" is the Summer Institute of Linguistics and if so, the C90 may have been based at their airstrip at Ukarumpa, near Kainantu?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

There was a King Air 65-C90 that flew in PNG as P2-DCA.

Subsequently came to Australia as VH-AMH and then VH-WNT, where I crossed paths with it. Almost became the pinnacle of my aviation career, but alas, I only got a few hours in the RHS before it moved on.

Still flying in the USA as N53EC! :ok:

[Captain Nomad]

When I was up there SIL (Aiyura) had a B200, it was 'New Tribes Mission' that had the C90 based at Goroka. Might have changed since...

[tio540]

FTDK - I only got a few hours in the RHS before it moved on.


So you were a passenger!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

FTDK - I only got a few hours in the RHS before it moved on.
So you were a passenger!

If flying the aeroplane from TO to landing is being a pax for you - then that's me! :ok:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Why a C90? Curious bystander and have considerable hours watching the operations of B200s from the right seat. Same basic engine design, more power, more seats, more payload, more range, more speed, excellent rough field ops, better cabin environment, better chance of getting one already modded with a cargo door. Why not a B200?

Interesting link Obi_Wan 2015. The guys flying for Norfolk kept prodigious logs on engine condition on every flight. With those cycle numbers and costs involved...it all makes sense now:ok:

[Stationair8]

C90 is a fantastic aeroplane, but the B200 is the better one by a long way.

But old Kingairs are maintenance intensive, once over the 10,000 mark you will be needing deep pockets and good engineering support.

The Norfolk Kingair trend monitoring is nothing short of legendary, endorsed on the B2O0, then endorsed on the trend monitoring and don't deviate from SOPS.
The chief pilot and chief engineer must have been a fearsome combination!

[sillograph]

Is the C90 still limited by an australian AD that limits it to 14000 hrs or so?

Or maybe thats only the F90 E90?

[AdamFrisch]

Same vintage, much better performer and much cheaper to operate is a Turbo Commander 690A/B. C90 and 690 were introduced same year (1971), and the 690 was much more advanced. Made the C90 look like a dinosaur.

1. 690 will do 280kts vs 200-something for the C90.
2. The Garrett's burn 20-30% less fuel than the PT6's.
3. It will fly higher.
4. It will fly further.
5. Better cabin differential.
6. Engine overhauls are much cheaper and the 5400hr TBO is almost twice as much as the PT6's. Garrett's are bulletproof.
7. The 5 year gear overhaul on the Commander is about $15K. What's the mandatory gear overhaul on the C90? Probably 3-5x as much.

Do yourself a favor, look at a 690A or B model. They even cost less to acquire, so it's a no brainer.

http://www.banyanair.com/images/twin_commander_main.jpg

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

C90 only about 210kt TAS too........(if you're looking after it)

[dhavillandpilot]

Adam Frisch is right the 690 is a much better option over a C90

I have already discovered passengers prefer the Aero Commander over other types. The tall cabin is a very big plus.

The only real problem is the spar inspections and the 241 AD. But if you do your homework you can buy a 690 that has had a spar renewal and just about all 690's have now had 241 done.

If the spar hadn't been done just make sure you get one that is on the max 36 month inspection programme.

[iPahlot]

The blackhawk -135 upgrade brings a 90 to similar speeds as the Commander, not sure about cost though. From a passenger point of view the PT6 is generally quieter than a Garrett.

A Conquest will give you 300kt+ with -10's with a cabin differential of 6.3 (from memory).

[iPahlot]

http://www.bjtonline.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/conquest_ii.pdf

Has a good little comparison of operating costs and performance of the 90, Conquest, Commander and MU2.

[AdamFrisch]

There is no doubt that the PT6 captured the market. Today, there are no Garrett powered IR SETP's around, and few twins. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Garretts. That's just how things evolved. Coke vs Pepsi.

At the time of their introduction the PT6's were a good deal economically. They are no longer.

P&W has, as their market share has increased, also jacked up their prices. An overhaul of a PT6 is today an eye watering affair and costs much more than a Garrett, although the Garrett has 1800hrs longer TBO. You can overhaul two engines on the Twin Commander, for the same price as one on the PC12. And get an extra 1800hr TBO. Not only that, the Commander will burn less fuel than the single in the PC12.

As for STC extension programs, they exist for Garretts as well. 7000hr is just an SB and a program, and up to 9000hr are done on the crop duster Trush planes I've heard.

[AdamFrisch]

BTW, if you want to stay King Air, but still have the economy of the Garrett's, look at the B100 model. It's the only one they made with those engines. They demand a greater premium, as the they have a small but dedicated following.

[AdamFrisch]

If it's so much more reliable, how come it has a 3600hr TBO versus the Garretts 5400hr TBO?

[tail wheel]

I've known PT6 engines to reliably run trouble free to 14,000 hours plus on condition. Don't believe a Garret would get there.

[Stationair8]

Has there been any F-90 Kingairs registered in Oz or NZ?

[megle2]

Yes at least one, VH WJT was a F90 based in Sydney then Brisbane, exported long ago back to US

[megle2]

Doubt whether they were ever anywhere near WJT
Waugh and Jo'ies ( Catapillar ) had it in Sydney and it was private in Qld
Have a nagging feeling there was another one but too long ago ( very early nineties ), can't recall, maybe a blue striped one

[walschaert valve]

megle2 i think you're correct - I have been wracking my brain trying to recall it. I was at HP when it was sold, seem to recall the old fella who owned it had passed away and it was being sold by his son who was a QC. Before it could be imported into the US it needed the props overhauled because they were over on calendar time, and an expensive MSB on the bleed air system which hadn't been done because it was not an AD.

Seem to think it was about 1990. The QC was pleased to be rid of it.

I liked the looks of the F90. Apart from the T tail mentioned it also had dual main wheels like the 200.

VH-WJT was Waugh and Josephson, or was it Johnson? Waugh and Joeys - as described by megle2.