Interested in Saudi Arabia?

[Captain Sand Dune]

To all those who plan to attend the BAe Systems
"roadshows" as advertised in the latest issue of
Flight International, here's a few questions you
may want to ask and a few points to consider.

1. Why are you recruiting? In May the RSAF
(through the Al-Yamamah Project Office) unilaterally
stopped all recruitment (expat and Saudi nationals)
and in-Kingdom transfers until further notice!

2. Will I recieve a comprehensive contract document,
and how will changes to that contract be communicated
to me?

3. How long you will I have to wait before my
family is allowed to join me?

4. How many children will the company sponsor as part
of the accompanied contract?

5. Ask for precise details on your removal entitlements,
both to and from Saudi Arabia.

6. What is the tenure of my contract?

7. Who am I directly responsible to - the RSAF or
BAe Systems?

8. Am I compensated if I lose "RSAF authorisation
to fly"?

9. How would I be compensated if I lose my aircrew
medical category as a result of injuries sustained
during work (eg ejection, car accident while
travelling on work related duties etc)?

10. What is the expected lifetime of Project Al-Yamamah?



Other points to consider are:

1. The advertisement says that simulator instructors
are wanted. At the King Faisal Air Academy (KFAA)
in Riyadh (PC-9 & C172) the policy is to only employ
Saudi nationals as PC-9 simulator IPs (it doesn't
seem to matter that some of them have no instructional
experience). The same applies to PC-9 maintenance
personnel.

2. The comment regarding secondary duties and
paperwork is particularly amusing. At the KFAA
nearly every IP has a secondary duty, and some have
more. Some of these secondary duties are those that
RSAF officers won't touch (eg Scheduler, STANEVAL
and Training Officer) because of the (RSAF induced)
workload. However, woe betide the scheduler/STANEVAL/
Training Officer that stuffs up!!
As for the paperwork - guess who does the syllabus
re-writes, produces the relevant manuals, reports etc??!!

3. At the end of the day, it is a VERY well paying
contract for which most of you are emminently
qualified. However have no illusion as to why
you're being paid that sort of money - it's not
for your good looks and personality

[Agent86]

Good to see that nothing has changed in the sandpit.

Did my time there (including the Scheduler bit:rolleyes: :mad: )

The old story is you get given 2 buckets when you arrive...

One for the money

One for the Sh|t

When ONE of them gets full it's time to go :D

9th Sqn KFAA 1990-1995

[hifiman]

Captain Sand Dune makes some very valid points, to which I would add: If you attend the roadshow, take what you are told with several pinches of salt. The presenter may not have first -hand experience of the role/position he is describing, or the domestic arrangements at the base concerned. There are major differences between the bases and their environments.

Had to leave KFAA after 11 years when my arms got tired from holding the buckets!!

Regards to Agent 86 and all those still in the sand pit.

[Max Stout]

Have just completed a year at Tabuk. When I first arrived one bucket seemed to fill up incredibly fast however the other is catching up month by month. The flying is pretty good, however everyone on the sqn has at least 1 major secondary duty and between 2 to 4 minor duties. The Saudi boss is without doubt the biggest Rse I have ever worked for. He grounded one colleague for a week for not turning a light off in a briefing room. Accomodation at TGV Tabuk is good and with young children the lifestyle is great. Currently working from 7 til 3 however the Saudi boss is on leave (worst has been 7 til 5). Oh almost forgot, a mate and his wife has recently returned home for good after a Saudi fired 5 rounds into the side of their car as they were approaching the gate of one of the compounds. Isolated incident apart from the sqn mate who was driven off the road and threatened by 4 Saudi's wielding an air rifle a few days later. So don't forget to ask the roadshow about flak jackets and issue ouzi's.

[BEagle]

You are, after all, just a mercenary. No matter how BWoS dress it up.

[Macchi]

Interesting reading, does anyone know of any other "oil for arms" deals in more liberal Middle Eastern Muslim nations that pay as well as BAe/RSAF??

(I just want to have my cake & eat it too!)
;)

[Ghostflyer]

Emirates pay less but you work only 12-14 days a month and have no secondary duties. Plus you have a great way of life, quality of life and no-one trying to kill you. Dubai beats most places in Europe for nightlife and you can escape any place in the world anytime you have a few days off. (About 40k/year until you get a command (3 yrs) then 60k+)

When I left I did the sums and I'd rather have a bigger money bucket that fills up a little slower with a small s**t bucket than vice versa.

Ghost:)

[katpad]

I just left after 10 years - some flying and some in the simulator – needed another 9 months to get an early BAE pension but decided enuff was enuff.

The money is good but not that good. If your wife gives up a good job the pay is not enuff. You might also wonder if the contract will last through another complete tax year – that is until April 2004.

The Company sucks. They employ you but allow the RSAF control totally what you do and how much of it. If you want to work for a bunch of third world control freaks, working on a mission for Allah, Saudi is the place for you. Do not expect anything from BAE except your pay.

Just in case you wonder, I insisted on teaching all my students how to land and take off.

[Sandy Wings]

Like everything in life it seems to be a balance out here, however most guys average 4 years here because they have had enough. It is very true that the company will do their best to please the "customer" not you! Pain and gain always seem to go together!!! In my opinion it depends on what your family can "put up" with, as to how long you survive out here. At least the pool has warmed up nicely!!:)

[Orange Whip]

I do hope that you boys out there in the Kingdom remember to check under your Yank Tanks before you drive out to the souks tomorrow. Still, it's probably worth the money eh?

[UNCTUOUS]

We really should have our own private forum here to compare notes on our Saudi experiences. Or perhaps it shouldn't be private, and then Warton might wake up to how much it sucks - particularly when they (and the RAF) allow the Saudis to ride roughshod over their people.
But then again there was always the W..n. M.r.ans (and his ilk) to fifth column you into the dirt... And from what I hear it's not changed much. But the Saud's got him too in the end. He thought they were dull enough and silly enough that he could pull a fast one. Always good to see a swine fall from grace and get slaughtered in pork-free territory.

But if you can take it and don't need to dish it out, that's certainly where the big tax-free bucks are. The chop-rate amongst QFI's in my 7 years there was only about 22% (8% on arrival checks and the rest as they ran outa favour), but many more left of their own accord, for one reason or another. One good thing was that the Strikey (now gone) and PC-9 fleets were immaculately maintained (by Bae staff). I doubt that's changed. You certainly do work for the dosh and wifey will be bored out of her skull because of the limited opportunities to both work and escape the compound. Mine eventually left me there and skedaddled. She just couldn't hack it.

The quality of the flying? You ride a radial at strictly controlled speeds into a little box and you are in the deep dwang if you broach that box. You then re-arrive via a radial and specified descent profile at Riyadh on time after flying around your little radar controlled box, debrief and go do that again. If you're up for formations, well you do the same in a two ship or fourship. Fancy flying four-ship with non compus mentus solo Arab cadets? Every few weeks you write the student reports and then rewrite them until you get them right. That might take four or five attempts. Those not then qualifying for neatest correct entry then get rousted and chastised.

The weather? Good generally, if you like breathing sand. When the hammer drops it can get nasty real fast and it's then every man for himself. God I'm getting depressed just thinking about it. I must have been insane. There were other things I could have done.

[solotk]

That's of course, when the locals, not just the students are trying to kill you.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2055000/2055714.stm

Condolencies to the family.

Tony

(2 Uncles who did the Saudi thing, one flying, one who taught Arabic to BAe employees)

[F-5DRIVER]

Suppose I am a wannabe for the sandpit. Will someone give me an estimate of the expected HIGH TAX FREE SALARY?

[Sdn Ldr Handlebar]

Chaps

Did my time in the sandpit, 87 - 92, bloody ***** hole.....don't do it there are better ways of earning a living and the money doesn't make up for the agro.

[bingy]

Salary all depends on what you fly. Fast jet pay is between 70-80k + bonuses. Bonuses vary dependant on aircraft type. Some guys get market premium which boosts salary by around 4k per year. All points mentioned valid. I am at Tabuk and find life varies from the sublime to the ridiculous. Work can be relaxed or suck your will to live in the same day. Family happy and school/compound good. Over £7000 per month take home makes the SH*T more bearable, thats if you can dodge the bullets, bombs and Saudi driving.:cool:

[rhajaramjet]

Agree totally with the sentiments about life/work in the Saudi Sandpit; biggest problem is BWoS - they treat you like dirt, cut entitlements at a stroke and cause much more grief than all the Saudis. They'll expect you to move your wife there with all her belongings but not pay a bean towards the move other than the air ticket. That money is very hard-earned, believe me. Not surprising really, the managers are there because they could never survive in the real world. But there's a better looking deal coming up in Bahrain, for three IPs setting up the Firefly training empire.

[newswatcher]

Excerpt from report by Saudi news agency SPA web site
Riyadh, 10 July:

"The Defence and Aviation Ministry has said that the rights of the Saudi employees at the British Aviation and Space Company will not be harmed.

Commenting on the local newspapers' reports on the measures the British company has taken to change its Saudi employees' contracts and to make the annual ones, as well as to amend the financial privileges granted to them in the previous contracts, the Defence and Aviation Ministry issued a statement in which it expressed its concern about protecting the rights of the Saudi manpower and about continuing to guarantee job stability in accordance with the regulations of international companies.

The ministry said that it will not allow the company to violate labour regulations and encroach on the employees' rights.

The ministry said that trained national cadres should contribute to the advanced technical fields so that the homeland can rely on them in developing the Armed Forces and defending our dear homeland..."

[mutt]

JEDDAH, 13 July — Saudi workers of British Aerospace yesterday thanked the Defense and Aviation Ministry for its support for their "legitimate cause" and said they will not withdraw their case against BAE.

"The cooperative labor committee of BAE workers in Dhahran has decided not to withdraw the case against the company," the committee said in a press statement endorsed by 497 Saudi workers.

The committee said it will continue to press for all its 12 demands, which are based on Shariah, Saudi labor law and the terms of the contract between the workers and the company.

The Saudi ministry in a statement on Wednesday defended the right of Saudis employed by BAE Systems to sue the British firm for discrimination. The ministry said it would not allow infringement of the rights of Saudi workers at the company.

The Saudi employees are demanding equal treatment with British and Australian colleagues at the Al-Yamamah project who receive higher salaries, more benefits, and are appointed on a permanent basis, the employees’ lawyer Jamal Al-Muzain said.

Muzain said he had filed a lawsuit on Monday at the Dammam labor court on behalf of Al-Yamamah employees in the Eastern Province. More cases have since been filed in Riyadh, Tabuk and Taif, he said.

"The ministry has clearly stated now that it will not agree to any new steps on the part of the company in violation of the rights and privileges of the Saudi workers," Muzain said.

"The ministry also guarantees job security for Saudi workers," the lawyer said, adding that the statement highlighted the legitimacy and justness of the workers’ demand. A BAE official said on Thursday that the company would implement the ministry’s instructions to protect the rights of Saudi workers and improve their work conditions. "We’ll implement the instructions of the Saudi ministry and its demands (regarding rights of Saudi workers)," Walid Abu Khaled, director of international contacts and public relations, told Arab News. The workers said they decided to pursue the case to prevent the company from playing with their future and causing them trouble and job insecurity.

The labor court adjourned until Aug. 20 to hear the company’s defense. The court’s rulings can be appealed at Riyadh’s court of appeals, whose verdicts are final.

The problem was triggered by a company plan launched several months ago to change the employment contracts of Saudis from permanent to annual contracts, thus giving the company the power to terminate jobs and cut salaries.

In the first BAE response to a statement made by the Defense Ministry on Wednesday, Abu Khaled said: "The demands from the air force and the Defense Ministry will be implemented verbatim. We used to implement their requests in the past. We are completing implementation of the procedures which they requested from the company."

Abu Khaled denied suggestions that BAE had reduced the salaries of Saudi workers. "It’s just their fears, and the reason is lack of proper contact between the company and employees," he added.

"We have held face-to-face talks with Saudi workers and have conveyed their problems and fears to higher authorities at the company and the defense ministry. In the light of these efforts there will be big improvement in the situation of Saudi workers," he said.

"There is no reason for further worries after the statement of the Defense Ministry, which was totally in favor of the Saudi workers," he pointed out.


(Apologies for the cut and paste, but this web site isnt very good at retrieving old news, I didnt see the point in posting a URL that would be worthless in a couple of days.)

[BEagle]

Pull out and leave them to it.........

[Captain Sand Dune]

Soooooooo.................
What's the level of interest toward the much advertised (Flight International) BAe Systems travelling circuses - oops! recruitment roadshows? :p

[Broken Wings]

Agent86 Not heard of the two buckets before but whilst I can't comment on Saudi my experience of Brunei is not too disimmilar. The S*** bucket filled very quickly on arrival until I controlled my own destiny (Flt Cdr) and meanwhile the other bucket was providing holidays of a lifetime for the family. Then the superb flying qualities of two local helo pilots ended up giving me a severe whiplash by dropping me far too high into the sea on a dinghy drill exercise and that led to a stroke, which in turn led to my permanent grounding and exit stage right. I'd be very careful about how you are protected if you become grounded through the fault of a local. Whilst I had the umbrella of the MOD they never looked after me after the accident and even in the Courts they were complete Rsoles, I have no reason to believe that a private company would be any different. Cover yourself with loss of licence insurance - I'm glad I did.

[Offset]

I'm considering Saudi (Tabuk) and have read with interest so far..

It seems that at least some of the agro comes from family related issues, but not heard much about life style for bachelors. Can anyone give any views on what it's like for a single bloke with no ties there?

Obviously the usual interests of "Birds, booze and curries" will take a bit of a hit, but what is the bottom line on the social life?. I suppose what I'm really asking is whether there's a nurses home nearby!

Thanks in advance - any views extremely useful. It's a big decision!

[BEagle]

tabuk.....TABUK??? YGBSM - an utter dump!

[9.81m/s/s]

Offset - BEagle is right - utter dump! Been there, didn't do that, caught the virus anyway! Do BUPA have regional offices in TABUK?

[BEagle]

Chief hobby of the BWoS people who looked after the Lightnings when I first went to that corner of the Great Sandtray (apart from counting their money) was brewing illegal beer. This consisted of Kaliber, to which was added alcohol made from 5/5/5/5 - 5lb of potatoes, 5lb of lemons, 5 lb of sugar, 5 gallons of water. This was cooked up in a dustbin and the vapour distilled. To add the final touch, the colour was corrrected with a dash of gravy browning.......

Everything in the living compound seemed to be made out of white melamine, the local area was pretty awful - but the RSAF Officers' Mess was truly palatial.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Hmmmm.........RSAF Officers Mess - that must've been a hoot!:rolleyes: