Perth-Heathrow

[limelight]

From Sunday's Independent Non-stop flight from UK to Australia could happen within two years, says Qantas | Home News | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/qantas-plans-non-stop-flight-from-uk-to-australia-within-two-years-a6688236.html)

[Capt Fathom]

London to Perth? Why? Is there a market to Perth or is it just about bragging rights?

[SOPS]

The 777 200 LR could do it now.

[The Banjo]

The 777 200 LR could do it now.

Except for inept ATC at one end of the journey......:ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Is there a market to Perth
Ask the few hundred QF/EK pax that go to Europe via EK777/380/Doobye each day, Fathom.

[Derfred]

Teaming up with middle eastern carriers to fly to Europe: $500M

Overflying the middle eastern carriers to fly to Europe: Priceless :O

[lurker999]

Fathom, a city of 2 million with lots of pommy expats.

I would suspect that flight would be at least as popular as LAX - BNE if offered, possibly even more.

[Bundy Bear]

After all the diversions/holding/fog that's gone on for the last 10 days I bet they can't wait to overfly the joint.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

Prompts me to ask, Hon. Members, what is the longest existing commercial passenger flight? As regards LHR to Perth, I suppose you could offer those Airbus style sleeping-pods and a couple of pills for a very different flying experience. Question is would enough people want to go to Perth, when the main Oz population centres are on the east coast. The longest direct flight we've done is HKG/LHR - 11 hours which passed relatively painless key in 747 economy down at the back end in paired seats so no interruptions. 18 hours - I'm not so sure I could cope without lying down.

[Metro man]

An absolute nightmare in economy in a B787 in 9 across configuration. Market limited to traffic between PER and LHR only as Asia and the Middle East offer better connections to other destinations and no one will suffer an 18 hour flight followed by a 2 hour lay over and then a 1 hour flight.

The last trip I did Asia to Europe I broke the journey for a few hours in the Middle East. Enjoyed a session in the gym, a few laps of the pool and 20 mins in the jacuzzi. After a nice meal in a restaurant I was quite happy to get back on board for another 7 hours. Stayed airside the whole time and as the flights were daytime was quite happy in economy.

Up to 4 hours, a low cost will do.
Up to 8 hours, economy in daytime on a decent airline.
Beyond 8 hours I'm looking at breaking the journey or business class.

A premium fare will need to be charged to cover the cost of the extra fuel used vs a stop in the desert. It might be better to go as far as Dubai and feed into the EK network.

[Derfred]

I would happily sit upright for 18 hours if it meant sticking it to the ME hubs (or even the Asian hubs). It's a pity the Perth domestic-international transfer is such a long distance - that airport really needs work.

With such a huge feeder network already in existence (widebody aircraft from the East Coast around the clock), Perth could be a great hub if it could get it's act in order. (CAT III would help too, but I digress...)

I personally doubt the 787-9 would do this run but I have speculated that the 777-8X could if expectations become real.

Banjo:

The 777 200 LR could do it now.

Yeah but someone forgot to order them. And in any case, it would have needed to have significant number of high yield premium seats to make it work - hard to justify in a cyclic marketplace, and probably a good decision, no, lucky decison given what's happened to the market since 2008 (good decision re the 777 LR, still bad decision, no, criminal decision re the 777 in general).

I guess the good news could be that it would be a fuel critical sector so seats should be limited... Theoretically that could mean better lie-back seats in Y-class, but then again pigs fly Mach 5 in my version of the future.

Definitions for the purposes of the last sentence:
"Theoretically" = good idea, but does not meet corporate ideals
"Could" = should, but does not meet corporate ideals
"pigs fly Mach 5 in my version of the future" = I have some really good ideas but they don't meet corporate ideals

[jetfour]

You are the first person that I have ever heard cast aspersions against the great guys and gals in Perth ATC!!!

[jetfour]

Banjo, you are the first person that I have ever heard cast aspersions against the great guys and gals in Perth ATC!!! :=

[The name is Porter]

Except for inept ATC at one end of the journey......

I do a couple of long distance flights in my aircraft, I get some vectors sometimes, sometimes I don't. If it ever got to the point that a few vectors were critical to my fuel state I wouldn't do the flight. If I did the flight anyway, got vectors and my fuel state got low and I had to pan-pan or mayday I'd be a bit of a ******** eh?

[neville_nobody]

Even if everything with the aircraft worked out, Perth is going to have to get its into the 21st century with infrastructure otherwise this flight would be to risky. Any diversion as it stands will be a logistical nightmare because:
1. There is nowhere to go. YPLM is probably it. I doubt they could carry ADL
2. Once you get there the crew are all out of hours so you would probably need a charter to get pilots and CC out there.
3. You then have a bunch of tired grumpy pax who have been airborne for a 18 hours and now have to wait for the rescue.

EK kicked up a huge stink a few years ago after a run of fog in Perth lead to day after day of diversions but years later and nothing much has happened on the low viz front.

So until there is CAT III in Perth this is a non starter

[Flava Saver]

I agree, Perth needs to step up re infrastructure..

However, if the schedule is timed correctly, and arrives at lunchtime or afternoon, it's likely they would do it. Not much fog in the afternoon.

[BNEA320]

yes this idea all falls down with domestic to international at PER. As bad as bloody awful SYD & as time consuming.

[neville_nobody]

The afternoon arrival would work in regard to fog, however it would then limit any connections to the east coast. If you were going to try this you would want a east coast feed which would be best done with a early arrival or possibly a late evening arrival with a redeye connection.
As mentioned previously they really need to sort out the terminal situation too. Ideally you clear customs in Perth and walk onto your domestic connection.

[Capn Bloggs]

Surely this would primarily be for Perth residents? If you had to stop somewhere for a transit ie if you resided on the east coast, wouldn't you be better off transiting somewhere near the middle of the journey 8 + 13 (Asia/Dubai) as opposed to doing 18 + 3 hours especially if it involves with a Int>Dom transfer?

[Keg]

I thought the plan was for Qantas to all be in one terminal within the next few years. Domestic and international ops. That'd sort out the transfer issues.

[BuzzBox]

Keg,

Yes, the long term plan is for QF's domestic operations to move over to the international side and operate from a new wing connected to the international terminal. That could be a long way off, given the time it's taken for Virgin's new terminal to be completed.

Are these proposed non-stop flights expected to originate & terminate in Perth? If not, then I guess they would originate & terminate in Sydney, with a transit stop in Perth. Surely that would save Sydney passengers from having to change terminals in Perth.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thread Drift..... Beware incoming.....
Hey Mr jet4,

Can I please, please, have a 'City & Beaches' ....pleeeeze..??

The last few times I have 'bothered' to try, I got a knockback, even with a plan....and when I went OCTA, coastal, I heard /saw, no-one, west of the airport......

Normal viewing resumes....

19 hours sitting on my bum...I think I'd like a bit more leg room for a start....

I've done 14 hrs SY-SFO / LAX -SY (B747 / B777) a few times now, and I do have to 'go for a walk' occasionally....
Don't think the lower cabin alt of the 787 would alter that too much.

Still, for those 'in a hurry'......

Cheers:ok:

[Veeeffarr]

As a Pom in Perth I fly with Emirates to Europe every 2 yrs. My first stop is usually for family in NCL. EK is the only long haul carrier to fly there with a connection to PER. Cutting out a stop in LHR, AMS, FRA or anywhere else en route makes them more attractive than an ultra long haul which gets me close but not there yet. Their flexibility with multi-city stops and an extensive network to go back via makes flying with them almost an automatic choice for me. I am a fickle pax though and any other airline that could do this would potentially get my economy class backside on board. I prefer to go via the Middle East because it's a shorter trip than through Asia.
The convenience and sheer size of EK plus the advantage of Dubai's location means I don't reckon many people would go the 18 hrs in a 777. Maybe on a 380 though...

[Keg]

Buuzbox, I thought it was the other way around? Customs for QF flights are to occur in our current terminal.

[BuzzBox]

Keg,

The QF Group will take over T3 when Virgin moves to the new domestic pier on the international side, but my understanding is that QF will only operate domestic flights from the T3/T4 precinct. Could be wrong though!

Last year's iteration of the Perth Airport Master Plan shows all QF Group domestic services relocating to the international side some time in the early 2020s, with a new terminal to be built to the east of T1 together with the much vaunted new runway.

[halas]

May not happen unless they upgrade KGI or something similar.
Destination alternates of LEA on a good day, and ADL on a not-so good day is OK on a 10 hour flight but eats into your payload on anything more in the 777.
This is international standard practice.

Unless there is an alternative to destination alternate?

Last time l flew in Oz (Many years back) Just carry fuel for Tempo/Inter or alternate as required. Otherwise, she'll be right Mate! :}

halas

[Boe787]

Once qantas acquire T3 space, see no reason why one or two gates could be set up for international/domestic ops, same as in Adelaide, that way any Qantas International flights from perth could depart/arrive same terminal area?

Also I would have thought first priority for Qantas internationally from Perth would be a 787 to Dubai, to connect with the multitude of EK destinations to/from Dubai.

[Veeeffarr]

Why would I want to take a QANTAS 787 instead of an Emirates A380 to DXB and then have to change airlines? Only if the connection times are shorter. EK does a good job of keeping these down by having 2 fights a day to PER. QANTAS aren't an international airline from Perth, they gave that business away to Emirates remember?

[Ollie Onion]

The longest flight I have ever been on was 14 hours, by the end of this I was almost ready to top myself and that was up the front in a comfy seat. I would pick a stop over any day over an ultra long haul flight, it's just not good for you and must be like hell on earth in economy.

[ExtraShot]

I suppose it depends how the QF 787 are configured. Particularly down the back. Any narrower that 18 inch seats with less that 32 or 33 inches of legroom and you can forget it in Economy for a 17-18 hour odd flight. You'd also need areas where pax can stand for a period of time (an enhancement of the self serve snack bars or the like, perhaps), given sitting for extended periods is now the new Smoking.

Some innovation will probably be required I guess, to strike a balance between attracting Customers, and pleasing Bean Counters. Something along the lines of the Cozy suite CozySuite (http://www.thompsonaero.com/cozysuite)

As far as connection times, if Frankfurt was a destination in addition to LHR, this would have the potential to provide better connections to most of Europe at least, as from Frankfurt Airport you can Fly, Drive, or catch a train to almost anywhere, and from LHR you have most of the UK, Ireland and Northern Europe covered.

Given the UK expat population in Perth, a 2 million plus population, plus those connecting from regional WA, you'd have to say that a profitable load on a 250 seater each day would not be too much of a stretch. Even more so once the terminals are combined, AND if the flight originated from the East anyway, with some cheap fares to fill it for the domestic leg.

Now if only for a Cat III approach!

[Capn Bloggs]

Now if only for a Cat III approach!
It's coming! RVRs on the ATIS ysterday while all the aeroplanes were doing GAs/flying around in circles waiting for the fog to clear...

[Icarus2001]

The convenience and sheer size of EK plus the advantage of Dubai's location means I don't reckon many people would go the 18 hrs in a 777. Maybe on a 380 though...
Why would it be acceptable on an A380 but not a B777 or B787?

[Metro man]

SYD - LON 18 hours non stop would be a goer, but not Perth.

[lurker999]

Which mythical aircraft has the range and speed to cover that distance?

[Metro man]

When Boeing or Airbus come up with it and if it can do the route efficiently it should be a money maker. Premium travellers between two major cities should make it pay. Perth is just too small and has no catchment area.

[The Banjo]

CAT III might be well and good, however if the forecast is below the SLAM then you will still need an alternate.

A big ask into Perth after an 8800nm sector.

[Veeeffarr]

I just feel less fatigued after getting off an A380. Plus the sense of space, seems a lot quieter, doesn't twitch around like the 777, more humidity in the air. Smoother and just nicer, even if it's not pretty on the outside.

[morno]

Then it's a good thing it'll be on a 787 then 😉

[The Green Goblin]

Yep, Perth is so small it has a daily EK380 plus every other airline serving it with 777s 340s and and 330s.

Metro man, Perth will be bigger than Brisbane in 2020 at current growth rates.

It's a wealthy city and its full of citizens used to travelling to get anywhere.

A direct London service would be very popular. I'd rather go Syd - per - lhr than muck around in the desert.

Just saying.

[rjtjrt]

I'd rather go Syd - per - lhr than muck around in the desert.
Absolutely.
So would I!

[Metro man]

Perth is so small it has a daily EK380 plus every other airline serving it with 777s 340s and and 330s.

If it's that good then why did QF stop international flights from there ?:E

Perth may be bigger than Brisbane in a few years but the catchment area is negligible outside the city. In QLD, unlike other states, most of the population live outside the capital. BNE will soon be a LAX style spread from the Sunshine to Gold coasts.

The configuration of a 787 in 9 across is similar to an A320/B737 typically used for much shorter journeys. The flight would be hell, I've done 14 hour legs in the A380 and the B777 in 9 across and was more than ready to get off. Imagine 18 hours in a domestic B737 configuration. I avoid the B787 as far as possible, A350 is much nicer.

With the ultra long range A350s being developed for Singapore Airlines to fly to the US, SYD - LHR might be possible a few years down the track with advances to stretch the range bit further.

An overnight break in an airside transit hotel in the desert makes a journey far less tiring. Two legs with a good night sleep in between reduces jet lag and you can adjust your arrival to a convenient time by choosing a suitable connecting flight.

[BuzzBox]

If it's that good then why did QF stop international flights from there ?

Not many people want to fly QF out of Perth because the other airlines all have better networks that offer a far greater choice of flights and destinations. The final straw was the deal with EK that saw QF stop using SIN as a hub for flights to Europe. Once that happened, PER passengers had no reason to choose QF.

There is plenty of traffic out of PER - SQ operates four times daily to SIN, EK twice daily to DXB, CX ten a week to HKG, etc, etc. If QF wants to capture some of that traffic then they need to offer some attractive options for the punters.

[Popgun]

I'm guessing a PER-LHR route will be quite popular with those fortunate enough to be able to travel in J class. Time moves (too) quickly when you are comfortably tucked in to a lie flat bed after a nice meal and a few drinks.

Whether originating in PER, or some other Aussie port requiring only a domestic transfer, there are MANY who would prefer to avoid the Middle East in order to get 1-stop access to the UK.

Regular punters in Y class? I'm not sure 9-across economy seating for 18 hours will be as popular. As others have suggested, probably more comfortable, especially with kids, to break the hideously long journey somewhere closer to half way.

If you're going anywhere else in Europe other than London, then the EK (and to a lesser extent SQ) connections can't be beat. Transferring and backtracking via LHR in a sleep deprived state is no one's idea of a fun day out.

Here's hoping it goes ahead, if for no other reason that it will create a bit of buzz and excitement in an airline that has become more and more like a travel agent in recent times. It's high time for a bit of bold behaviour!

PG

[Metro man]

18 hours is 6am to midnight. Imagine spending that time sitting in a not very comfortable narrow chair with limited recline and a least one, quite possibly two people on either side of you.

J class one stop with a lie flat bed starts at around $7000, economy one stop starts at about $2000. A night in an airside transit hotel is around $300. If I was going with the wife in business class we're looking at $14000 vs $4300 for a comfortable trip. J class is great if someone else is paying or you've got money to burn. I'm taking the slower option and saving $10 000 by arriving a few hours later and I'll be less jet lagged.

[neville_nobody]

An overnight break in an airside transit hotel in the desert makes a journey far less tiring. Two legs with a good night sleep in between reduces jet lag and you can adjust your arrival to a convenient time by choosing a suitable connecting flight.

However not all travellers have the time or the money for such things. If you are on annual leave trip or business you don't want to waste 4 days getting to and from Europe.

[The Green Goblin]

Metro man,

Qantas needed the assets elsewhere on the network.

IE Virgin put A330s on the domestic transcontinental routes, so QF poached them all to counter it.

Id expect to see a renewed push in Perth with the arrival of more longer range airframes.

No feed? Perth has 3 million cashed up bogans living there. Not to mention the feed from say Adelaide and Darwin or any other city if there was a direct flight to Europe.

It would very very popular.

When was the last time you visited Perth? Must have been in the 80s.

[myshoutcaptain]

GG - the cash has gone. Commercial property vacancies are through the roof , rental market is open and the housing market is flat. The SS ute and Jet Ski sales have floundered .... yet the price of a pint hasn't fallen ... :ugh:

[Metro man]

Fly DRW to PER for a connecting flight to Europe ??? Why not go via Singapore instead ? Adelaide possibly, but the Asian/ME competition are laying on extra flights to ADL so expect some keen pricing.

With the mining boom tapering off, not everyone is cashed up.

This flight will be more expensive to operate and would need less dense seating to be bearable.

[Icarus2001]

Perth has 3 million cashed up bogans living there.

Only a slight exaggeration, given that the entire population is only 2 million. Some of them do not even own thongs or wife beaters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth

Now back to the topic...

The most interesting part about this article is that SQ ran ALL BUSINESS CLASS. AJ has not said HOW QF would operate but if it was ALL business class say three times a week, there would be a market.

Singapore Airlines to restart world's longest non-stop flight to New York with new Airbus A350s (http://www.traveller.com.au/singapore-airlines-to-restart-worlds-longest-nonstop-service-to-new-york-with-new-airbus-a350s-gk8w9m)

[Engineer_aus]

I heard a wee rumour from the west coast that QF are looking at converting the ex Virgin terminal into INTL. Then there will be seamless transfers between intl and dom ops.

[Skystar320]

you wee rumour is indeed INCORRECT

[ExtraShot]

Yes, how dare you post a Rumour on a Rumour Network. :hmm:

[Engineer_aus]

Skystar, thanks for clearing that up. I take it you are a Perth local?