LHR ~ PER = 18 hrs, says Qantas

[PAXboy]

Non-stop flight from UK to Australia will happen within two years, says Qantas | Home News | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/qantas-plans-non-stop-flight-from-uk-to-australia-within-two-years-a6688236.html)

The ideal timing would be an early evening departure from Perth, arriving around noon next day in London - allowing plenty of time for connections at either end. The return flight would take off from Heathrow around 3pm, arriving late afternoon the next day in Perth. They propose this on the 787-9, but I'd ask about their window control protocol first ...

[Hotel Tango]

Being a senior citizen and not in too much of a hurry, I would avoid 18 hour flights like the plague. I prefer a stopover for a day or two, in Singapore for instance, to break the trip up. But I guess the workaholics will be delighted with this non-stop option.

[Metro man]

It's not the worlds longest flight, Dubai to Panama City come in at around 19 hours, but it's certainly up there. I'm not sure if there is enough demand from a Perth size city for a non stop London flight as people using it would be primarily going to London only, with Singapore or the Middle East offering better connections.

I certainly wouldn't want to spend 18 hours non stop in a 787 with 9 across seating, just thinking about it makes me cringe.:eek:

[Phileas Fogg]

Well I've spent 14 (ish) hours in a KLM B777 MNL/AMS, and in the days when I was a smoker, what's the difference between 14 and 18 hours, once one has been in an aluminum tube for that long an extra 4 hours isn't very long at all.

I recall when I was positioning LHR/BKK/SYD/MEL, I just wanted the journey over and done with as quickly as possible rather than all these damn stops!

[esa-aardvark]

Might work if you lived in Perth. Otherwise another 5 hours to Sydney. I'd rather 2*12 hours. And the Aussies will make you clear immigration in Perth.

[DaveReidUK]

It's not the worlds longest flight, Dubai to Panama City come in at around 19 hours, but it's certainly up there.

Distance-wise, as the crow flies, LHR-PER is about 400nm longer than DXB-PTY.

[ZFT]

When the were operating I did LAX - SIN and LAX - BKK a few times, both over 17 hours flights. Not pleasant and I for one don't mourn their passing. TG and SQ couldn't make ultra long haul work and I don't see anything has changed from the passengers point of view.

[Hotel Tango]

From my own experience of long flights (albeit 13 hrs having been my maximum) I would personally disagree with you Phileas, in as much that I find those remaining 3 to 4 hours the longest of all. By the ninth hour I've seen enough movies, done enough reading, had a nap or two and just want to get off the damn aeroplane :)

[Phileas Fogg]

Back in the day I worked for one particularly "Skytrain" operator where, in the days when we merely operated DC10-10's, the LGW/LAX/LGW service would fuel stop in BGR.

Once we got DC10-30's the flights would operate direct LGW/LAX/LGW however, what with all the tankering of fuel, it remained more cost effective to fuel stop in BGR.

Longer flights can prove more expensive to the operator whilst less desirable for the passenger!

[Heathrow Harry]

real problem is that Perth offers a very restricted market - doesn't matter how long the flight is

Sydney/Melbourne are the only Aussie destinations with real heft for the business community

[Phileas Fogg]

Sydney/Melbourne are the only Aussie destinations with real heft for the business community

And that's why A380's, rather than B787's, operate those routes

[AdamFrisch]

When you travel for work, and in these times where commercial aviation travel is equal to nail removal torture, you just want to get there. Get the pain over with in a short a time as possible. Besides, I'm on a schedule - I don't have the time to dilly dally on some layover.

I will always choose a direct flight over a connecting one. Even if it's serviced by a worse airline, or one I can't get any miles on. Direct. Always.
I just hoped they'd do a direct line to Sydney instead. Perth doesn't seem like it would work.

[Basil]

Why do you want to go to Perth? :E

[Mr Optimistic]

Likes Scotland but not in a hurry to get there.

[Phileas Fogg]

Why do you want to go to Perth?

In a previous life I worked a summer season down in Oz, we never operated to Perth as we only had 2 engines on our B737's, Dan Air were operating the Perth routes with their B727, but Perth is a very popular, and apparently beautiful, destination.

Why go to Perth? ... Perhaps for similar reasons that Air Mauritius, ANZ, Cathay, China Southern, Emirates, Qatar and another M. Eastern carrier, Garuda, Singapoore Airlines, SAA and Thai, to name but some, go to Perth ... Because people do want to go to/from there.

Perth is the hub that serves, pretty much, half of Australia, just look at all the feeder routes, many operated by Qantas and/or QantasLink, in/out of Perth, with an aircraft the size of a B787 I would suggest that such a route is a winner.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Perth is the hub that serves, pretty much, half of Australia,"

the empty half.............

[Phileas Fogg]

the empty half.............

You mean all these airliners fly around empty to/from Perth?

AirAsia X Kuala Lumpur
Air Mauritius Mauritius
Air New Zealand Auckland, Christchurch
Airnorth Darwin, Kununurra
Alliance Airlines Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Leinster, Leonora, Mount Keith, Newman, Port Hedland, Telfer, The Granites
Cathay Pacific Hong Kong
China Southern Airlines Guangzhou
Cobham Barrow Island, Kambalda, Granny Smith, Murrin Murrin GA
Emirates Dubai-International
Anonymous Airways Abu Dhabi
Garuda Indonesia Denpasar, Jakarta-Soekarno-Hatta
Indonesia AirAsia Denpasar
Jetstar Airways Adelaide, Cairns, Denpasar, Gold Coast, Melbourne, Sydney
Jetstar Asia Airways Singapore
Malaysia Airlines Kota Kinabalu, Kuala Lumpur
Malindo Air Kuala Lumpur
Maroomba Airlines Mount Magnet
Qantas Adelaide, Alice Springs, Brisbane, Broome, Canberra, Christmas Creek, Cloudbreak, Darwin, Geraldton, Ginbata, Exmouth, Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Melbourne, Newman, Paraburdoo, Port Hedland, Singapore, Sydney Auckland
Qantaslink Bellevue, Exmouth, Geraldton, Christmas Creek, Cloudbreak, Coyote, Leinster, Morawa, Mount Hale, Sinclair, Solomon, Woodie Woodie
Qatar Airways Doha
Scoot Singapore
Singapore Airlines Singapore
Skippers Aviation Burnakura, Darlot-Centenary, Carnarvon, Jundee, Karara, Kalbarri, Laverton, Lawlers, Leinster, Leonora, Meekatharra, Monkey Mia, Mount Magnet, Plutonic, Sunrise Dam, Wiluna
South African Airways Johannesburg
Thai Airways Bangkok-Suvarnabhumi
Tigerair Australia Melbourne, Sydney, Denpasar 1
Virgin Australia Adelaide, Brisbane, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands, Darwin, Denpasar, Karratha, Newman, Melbourne, Phuket, Port Hedland, Sydney
Virgin Australia Regional Airlines Albany, Broome, Esperance, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Kununurra, Ravensthorpe, Port Hedland

[Rwy in Sight]

I guess he means the empty half of Australia. But I see your point.

[Phileas Fogg]

RiS,

Of course WA is less densely populated that the eastern states but, for Christ's sake, we're talking about a once daily 250 (ish) seater to/from Pommieland.

How difficult can that be?

[PAXboy]

Methinks that one factor in planning this is to get some of their European traffic back. The ME and Legacy Euro carriers have done very well of late, if QF can regain some of that AND the transfers on to the rest of OZ? That could be worth it.

[Metro man]

Fly it to Dubai instead and plug into the EK network, possibly do an onward flight to London from there as a code share with Emirates and carry some of their passengers for a change.

The extra fuel used compared to uplifting en route will require a higher airfare and oil prices may not stay at their current low levels.

18 hours would need a low density seating configuration to be bearable in economy, possibly the 8 across one which it was originally designed for.:hmm: The A350 in 9 across is still quite comfortable as is the B777. This route would have mainly British and Australian passengers onboard, countries which rank among the worlds highest rates for obesity.

I would pay extra to have a stop on the way over, 18 hours in the middle seat sandwiched between a couple of porkers would put me off flying forever.

[ExXB]

EK already had double-daily PER-DXB,

[Heathrow Harry]

"Methinks that one factor in planning this is to get some of their European traffic back"

but that's their own fault - no-one forced them to cut a deal with EK and reduce their long-haul flights - it was the economics that did it

Flying a few pax LHR-Perth is unlikely to make them any serious return at all

TBH I can see them cutting even more of their international network if & when the oil price goes up again

[PAXboy]

Heathrow Harry
but that's their own fault - no-one forced them to cut a deal with EK and reduce their long-haul flights - it was the economics that did it

Flying a few pax LHR-Perth is unlikely to make them any serious return at all
I agree. When they cut European flights for the M.E. I thought it strange. On the one hand, they could have spotted the future and put their routes in a safer place - but only time will tell.

When I saw this announcement, I again thought it strange. Whilst there are a fair number of connections to be made, they must be really sure of the numbers to dedicate machines and crew to this ULH route.

[S.o.S.]

I mentioned this topic to a good friend who is a travel agent. She said they get lots of calls about booking a particular kind of flight to Australia. "I don't want the flight that stops, you know? I want the one that goes straight there. I don't want the flight that takes 24 hours."

I'm told that all agents are used to this.

[Peter47]

A few stats:

In 2014 according to the International passenger Survey 1.057m Australians visited the UK - I don't know how many came from Perth.

430,000 Brits visited Australia as their main destination - the actual total will be a little higher as only one destination is given per outbound trip so a stopover en route to Auckland will be excluded.

In the 2011/2 Perth Airport annual report (the latest I can get hold of) said that there were 175,000 British arriving in Perth in the year.

Double all the above to get single journeys.

I would estimate at lease 700,000 annual journeys - does anyone have actual data?

A daily 777LR or 350 would carry about 150,000 pax p.a.s so it would only need to capture about 20% of the market - if the yield was high enough.

However a non stop route would really be aimed at the business market and this is only 7.5% of the UK - Oz route (I don't have data for London - Perth but I would imagine it to be broadly similar). This compares with 21% to the USA & 29.3% to Japan. I would estimate just over 50,000 business pax p.a. or about 70 per direction per day. Some will want to stop off en route or prefer ME3 or Asian carriers. Then again many leisure pax stay on the plane at SYD or DXB, about half in my very limited experience. (They are mad in my view but its only my view).

It looks marginal to me, but it could just work.

[TURIN]

Why is it 18hrs?

London to Perth is 7813 nautical miles (great circle)

So that's 434 MPH average. Seems a bit slow.

[Hotel Tango]

I guess maths wasn't your best subject at school then :hmm: Try again.

[S.o.S.]

Turin got a bad case of something and he is now out of the thread for a while and been served a Red card. If he doesn't feel better he has a few options.

And just when I thought the forum was bumbling along nicely ...:sad:

[Hotel Tango]

Very sorry about that S.o.S. I thought he would see the humour in my remark and spot the basic error he made.

[S.o.S.]

Thanks Hotel Tango I appreciate that but his reaction was waaay over the top for any 'roughness' on your part.

As readers will gather, I had to delete a post because of swearing. The protocol in PPRuNe is that we do not edit a post, we simply delete it. Swearing is forbidden as we want these forums to be polite and (hopefully) humorous.

Now, back to the topic: Would anyone like to comment as to why QF state 18 hours for the sector?

[Metro man]

Prevailing winds ?

[Phileas Fogg]

Would anyone like to comment as to why QF state 18 hours for the sector

Because they couldn't think of any other number between 17 and 19?

In a previous life when I did scheduling, once I'd figured things out with the AERAD charts I would add a percentage for luck to the route time.

The likes of Ryanair do this, if the route is an hour then schedule it for 1hr 15min then if one departs late one can arrive the other end on time or early and manipulate one's "on time" statistics whilst keeping the SLF happy ... if duped :)

[Hotel Tango]

Back in 2003 I remember being on duty when an QANTAS Airbus A330 delivery flight flew from Toulouse to Melbourne direct. That flight, with prevailing tailwinds, took just a few minutes over 20 hours.

[Phileas Fogg]

London to Perth is 7813 nautical miles (great circle)

So that's 434 MPH average. Seems a bit slow.

18hrs is a scheduled block time, not a flight time, up to 30 minutes taxying out at LHR, 10 minutes taxying in at PER, flight time now down to some 17.3 hours whilst, alas, airways don't necessarily follow great circle distances ... nobody provided the airways planners with a globe and a piece of string as we used to figure out great circle tracks during another of my previous lives :)

[Hotel Tango]

18hrs is a scheduled block time, not a flight time, up to 30 minutes taxying out at LHR, 10 minutes taxying in at PER, flight time now down to some 17.3 hours whilst, alas, airways don't necessarily follow great circle distances

Exactly, and let's not forget the possible speed restrictions both on departure and arrival. There are so many variables on a long sector that airlines will build in an adequate buffer to maximise their "on time" arrival stats. Ryanair do a good job of that on their relatively short routes. Just see how many eastbound USA-Europe flights arrive between 30 and 90 minutes ahead of schedule on a good day. Same goes for Asia-LAX.

[esa-aardvark]

This is back in the news today, admittedly in the Mail.
Perth is not too bad a stop for me as I can get on to Auckland OK.
Starting from Heathrow ! Never ! So I will stick to 12+12 hours with
a stopover in the middle.

[Lookleft]

Perth makes a lot of sense. QF avoid having to stopover at someone elses hub and you can go from Perth direct to ADL,DRW,SYD,CBR,BNE,MEL,CNS. They already have a sizeable crew base there so the question should be: why not Perth?

[Ancient Observer]

The problem with Virgin Australia taking you to Perth is that your bags would end up in Hobart. If they found them, they would send them off to Cairns.

[Ancient Observer]

Do all those airlines fly to Perth to enable the locals to escape?

[Mr Mac]

I have just come back up from Argentina with 1.5hr internal flight, 13.5hr to London, LHR two step and 1hr Man and that was enough. When Singapore operated to New York none stop on the 340 (All Business Class) I did that trip once at about 18hrs and a bit. Even when turning left I was glad to get off. I know everyone says the world is shrinking but when you flick to the in flight map that little old A/C symbol does seem to crawl across certain parts of it in my experience. Therefore if they did a none stop to Perth I think I would still rather do a Dubai two step to break the journey.


Time for a snooze.


Regards
Mr Mac

[PAXboy]

As I recall from my recent visit to PER, you can also get to ASP, AYQ and a host of smaller places like Broome. It would be a good starting point for a circular tour of the country, finishing up on the East coast and then 2-step home, or the other way around.

[TURIN]

On an id90 I would take the non-stop. Less chance of being stranded somewhere awkward and expensive.

[WHBM]

Can't see any commercial success in this. To justify the costs of the operation it would need a high business travel ratio and high yield, Perth just has not got that market. Nonstop through to Sydney, if possible (I believe not) and you might get adequate revenue, but not Perth. It would be pointless relying on connecting traffic to Melbourne or Sydney as they have much better existing one-stop links with London.

Major business in Perth is basically some mining, some oil/gas exploration. London, a dominant point for finance and media, is not a centre for either (Vancouver or Houston might be better).

[Metro man]

Moving Sydney from its present location to Broome would have a lot of advantages. It would be excellent for connecting flights throughout Australia as no backtracking would be involved. There is plenty of space for a new 24 hour airport and it's closer to the Asian markets. Non stop flights to London would be possible and almost certainly profitable.

Getting to Europe wouldn't be a 24 hour misery, connecting flights through the Middle East would be much shorter encouraging more tourism.

Blame the first fleet for arriving in the wrong place.

[HeartyMeatballs]

The Qantas media machine is very successful. London to Perth flights is to Qantas what paying to use the toilet, or £10 transatlantic flights are to Ryanair. It will never happen, but gets lots of cheap publicity and gets the name out there.

[nivsy]

Of course back in the day, ended around 2000? , BA used to fly a 747 into PER ex LHR albeit via SIN..now i wonder what the stats were on that in terms of through loads etc..I would so do 18 hours, anything to stop more security checks, airport transfers, boarding, etc etc....just make sure in B class seat!

[Phileas Fogg]

The Qantas media machine is very successful. London to Perth flights is to Qantas what paying to use the toilet, or £10 transatlantic flights are to Ryanair. It will never happen

I wouldn't be so pessimistic, back in the day when 'we' operated DC10-10's LON/BGR/LAX the hour or so turnaround in BGR wasn't wasted, the pax cleared US immigration there and upon arrival in over (immigration) congested LAX they arrived as domestic passengers.

Similarly, Qantas can sell LON to the likes of Adelaide, Alice, Darwin, Brisbane, Cairns, Sydney, Melbourne etc. with a 1 or 2 hour (ish) connection in Perth whilst clearing immigration and arriving at their final destinations as domestic passengers, even better if they allowed an extended connection time in Perth where one could arrive today and crash in a hotel before continuing their journey tomorrow.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more than one LON/PER/LON service each day

[Wycombe]

Of course back in the day, ended around 2000? , BA used to fly a 747 into PER ex LHR albeit via SIN..now i wonder what the stats were on that in terms of through loads etc

I did this trip in '96 (BA 744) and I remember how quiet the 5 hour leg from SIN-PER was. However, we did use it as the start of a Aussie tour, proceeding onwards from there to ADL, MEL, SYD etc.

[wiggy]

BA used to fly a 747 into PER ex LHR albeit via SIN..now i wonder what the stats were on that in terms of through loads etc


I operated a fair few of those and whilst I can't comment on the yield ('cos I don't know) I do recall those flights generally being "quiet".

FWIW When we had the traffic rights for the PER/AKL extension it always seemed to me that the load picked up again due to joiners at PER.

[PAXboy]

I was in PER in March and saw many routes. The place is expanding and this page from the airport website shows why a direct route there could be both good and not so good.
Perth Airport - Passengers | Route maps (http://www.perthairport.com.au/flights/route-maps)

Good because there are lots of domestic connections but not so good as there are many international connections. Which means those carriers will have sewn up deals with others and might make it more difficult for a new entrant to get onward connections.

[nivsy]

PER certainly has grown over more recent years and the infrastructure around the airport is part of that development. It is though an economy that is 2 or 3 tiers, for some money is no object, for others it struggles. More international flights/gateways etc has certainly boosted the figures and of course aircraft that are more efficient.....the 380 from Emirates, the Dreamliner of Thai etc. QF actually have (in QF colours) either no or very limited international flights from PER presently...in fact i thought it zero....?

[Phileas Fogg]

Good because there are lots of domestic connections but not so good as there are many international connections. Which means those carriers will have sewn up deals with others and might make it more difficult for a new entrant to get onward connections.

But how many of the international carriers can offer a hub and spoke operation thru PER?

[Metro man]

QF have a seasonal B737 to Singapore from Perth.

[crewmeal]

Isn't this just for PR purposes. QF claiming the first ever non stop schedule between UK and Oz. Whether it pays or not is another matter. I agree with comments made above regarding the costs of the operation. To save a couple of hours flying to Perth non stop is neither here nor there. My view is would prefer a transit stop to and from Oz to freshen up, walk around etc.

[Phileas Fogg]

To save a couple of hours flying to Perth non stop is neither here nor there. My view is would prefer a transit stop to and from Oz to freshen up, walk around etc.

A few years back I flew MNL/AMS with KLM, something like 14 hours, I was a smoker at the time so my only grievance was 14+ hours without a smoke, would I have preferred it in 2 legs, even as a smoker? ... No I wouldn't, let's get it over and done with so I can get to the Murphy's Irish Pub in AMS airport for a smoke, a toasted sandwich and a beer before continuing my onward journey AMS/CWL.

[Hotel Tango]

:) We're all different. Even though I only fly Business on Long Haul, I'll settle for 2 x 7 hrs and a comfortable night stop in between. 18 hrs in one go? Never! Of course, in all fairness, being retired I'm never in a hurry ;)

[reynoldsno1]

Just completed ORD-HOU-AKL-WLG. Flight times 2.5/14.5/1.0. The last 1.0 was the longest ... I will feel like sh*t for a week or so ....

[Gibon2]

It's official: Qantas will start the nonstop PER-LHR route in March 2017, with a 787-9: Media Releases - QANTAS TO FLY NON-STOP PERTH TO LONDON - Qantas News Room (http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-to-fly-non-stop-perth-to-london/)

[LTNman]

Qantas to fly from London to Australia non-stop - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38280722)

Will take 17 hours to Perth making it the worlds longest non stop route.

I can't think of anything worse than being stuck in an aircraft for probably close to 18 hours when boarding and disembarkation is included.

It can't be a great experience either for both crews.

[FlyMD]

Oh I don't know.. I did a 19h30 flight with Singapore Airlines on their all-business A340-500 from Newark to Singapore, and it was a fine experience..

You just have to take off your watch, eat when you're hungry, sleep when your body wants to, and have plenty of reading material.

Of course, doing it in an economy seat would have sucked a bit...

[p.j.m]

I can't think of anything worse than being stuck in an aircraft for probably close to 18 hours when boarding and disembarkation is included.


Same, Qantas have rocks in their head if they think anyone from the Eastern states would prefer a 17+ hour flight from Perth, over one stopping at Singapore or Dubai with a maximum of 14 odd hours in the air, and a decent break, rather that a quick transfer in Perth.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Qantas will start the nonstop PER-LHR route in March 2017

Spot the difference:

The 14,498 kilometre service will be the first regular passenger service to directly link Australia with Europe when it begins in March 2018.

[MELDreamer]

"It's great news for Western Australia because it will bring jobs and tourism" says Qantas CEO Alan Joyce.

[expurser]

Oh god I couldn't think of anything worse... just glad I am retired.

Probably not to bad if you are in F or J, horrendous down the back. Awful for the crew.

I for one much prefer to stop off for a day on the way going down under.

In my flying days I had a couple of deaths on Aussie routes, lots of older folk visiting relatives, sitting cramped for hour after hour. Can't imagine what a flight that long would be like

[davidjohnson6]

Regardless of the comfort for those in economy, will the numbers really stack up and will it actually be profitable ? The fuel needed to carry the fuel such a long way does not come cheap and Australia's white collar business capital is not Perth. I just can't see any particular merit of Perth vetsus changing planes in any of the existing hubs in the middle and far east, so Qantas won't be able to achieve much of a fare premium via Perth on the London-Sydney route

[HeartyMeatballs]

Well, I wonder where the MEB3 will now announce so that they can have the world's longest route.

[davidjohnson6]

I suppose Emirates or Etihad (but not Qatar) could launch Santiago de Chile or Lima or Guayaquil if they want to reclaim their title in the "mine's bigger than yours" competition

[CabinCrewe]

I dont think there will be an F offering...

[Heathrow Harry]

The direct will probably save you a couple of hours over a stopper

That will be attractive to some passengers and I'd guess overall you'll burn less fuel than adding an extra landing & t/o so it's good for the airline

As ever it all depends on pricing - there are probably enough passengers flying London-Perth and v/v each day to fill a 787

But you won't get any connecting traffic from S & E Australia as it's 4-6 hours flight time to Perth plus a connection - much faster via DXB or SIN

[BEA 71]

Ultra long range flights are the future and there will be more and more as suitable aircraft are available. But a Perth to London routing is a joke, considering the location ( Perth ). Sydney - London would be the right choice.
Regarding Perth, which is located in the middle ( at the edge ) of nowhere, I doubt there is any local demand.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Routing between UK and eastern Oz one has to stop somewhere and an hour or few in such places as BKK and SIN are wasted whereas during a stop/connection in PER at least one can clear Oz customs & immigration thus arriving at their final destination as a domestic passenger able to clear their ultimate destination airport significantly quicker.

When I travelled to/from Oz on business many years ago it was 1 hour in BKK, then 2 hours in SYD before onwards to MEL, as we reached the hotel bar some of our aircrew workmates were trying to tempt me with a beer but I was too zombie-fied even for a beer.

By comparison I've done 14 hours, in economy, MNL to AMS, I was a smoker at the time but it was OK and once one has been airborne for that length of time another 3 hours ain't all that.

So would I prefer LHR/BKK/SYD/MEL (2 transit stops) or would I prefer LHR/PER/MEL (1 transit stop)? ... I'll take the latter option thanks!

[beardy]

The longest duration scheduled flight was by Quantas, the double sunrise Perth (I believe) to Ceylon by Catalina: 33hrs non stop.

[DaveReidUK]

So would I prefer LHR/BKK/SYD/MEL (2 transit stops) or would I prefer LHR/PER/MEL (1 transit stop)? ... I'll take the latter option thanks!

Except that you can already get to MEL or ADL from the UK with only one transit stop via you-know-where.

[El Bunto]

That will be attractive to some passengers and I'd guess overall you'll burn less fuel than adding an extra landing & t/o so it's good for the airline I'm not sure about that, ULH flights spend most of their flight burning extra fuel simply to carry the fuel they need to make the extra distance; the initial climbing rate and cruising altitude will be lower than the same airframe making a one-stop, which will punish fuel consumption. Hence the dearth of ULH flights during the high-oil-price years. Ideally they'd take-off with minimum fuel, reach cruising alt and then refuel from a tanker. But I can only imagine the hernia that'd cause in the FAA et al.

[Harry Wayfarers]

That will be attractive to some passengers and I'd guess overall you'll burn less fuel than adding an extra landing & t/o so it's good for the airline

In a previous life I worked for a DC10-10 operator whereas our LON/LAX/LON services, and occasionally our Florida services, would fuel stop in BGR where the punters would have the opportunity, westbound, to clear US immigration arriving at their ultimate destination as domestic passengers.

Once we acquired DC10-30's services operated direct but with the extra tankering of fuel it would have been cheaper to continue tech stopping in BGR ... But punters preferred direct services.

[Sober Lark]

another 3 hours ain't all that bad

Part of Alan Joyce's plans for his historic game changing route is administering injections of local anesthetic into the buttocks of Economy PAX at the departure gate.

[Harry Wayfarers]

another 3 hours ain't all that bad

Part of Alan Joyce's plans for his historic game changing route is administering injections of local anesthetic into the buttocks of Economy PAX at the departure gate.

I speak as a, albeit industry, and not as a spokesperson for any airline, executive, or whatever.

I flew 14 hours non stop as a smoker, had that been a 17 hour leg and had the operator offered me a choice to stop after 14 hours, take a one hour break before continuing for the last three hours I'd have responded "Let's carry on, let's get it over and done with" and I'm pretty damn sure that much of the travelling public would have responded likewise.

[Wycombe]

A 787 isn't that many seats to fill, and the lure of a direct flight will one suspects lure some folks away from a stop in the UAE.

Last time I went this way was on a BA 744, via SIN, where half the pax got off (and very few got on), which can't have been very economical either (although I accept it probably wouldn't be on a 74' now).

It's a long slog for sure, but once you get to 13-14hrs, a few more is neither here nor there IMHO.

[Andy_S]

A 787 isn't that many seats to fill, and the lure of a direct flight will one suspects lure some folks away from a stop in the UAE.

I don’t know how Qantas intend to pitch the fares, but all the evidence suggests that the majority of passengers are prepared to endure some discomfort in pursuit of low fares. If it's priced right, passengers will fly the route.

It's a long slog for sure, but once you get to 13-14hrs, a few more is neither here nor there IMHO.

Indeed. I did Heathrow – Jakarta non-stop earlier this year, a 13h 45min flight. In economy. I don’t claim to have felt 100% at the end of the flight, but nor did I feel particularly bad. I could have put up with another 3 hours, no problem.

[Trinity 09L]

Lets hope some medics are on board for DVT issues. My cousin collapsed at DBX after MEL to DXB, perfectly healthy individual(long day then a long flight).
I certainly only go to SYD with stopovers, and never thru ME3, too long sectors, better by SIN, HKK or TYO. My health is worth a few more ££'s

[PAXboy]

Whilst DVT can be associated with long haul travel, I have known cases where the person had not had such travel in a very long time. One of them a 19 year female.

[sealear]

I thought these QF 787's were only going to have 220 ish seats. Not much more than a 737-800, so it should be pretty comfortable. Having said that, 19 hours is brutal in Y class :{

[Hartington]

Perth is the hub for the mining operations in Western Australia. It also offers the opportunity to clear Australian customs and immigration before continuing to a range of destinations. It would not surprise me if London/Perth/Sydney came in at much the same as the traditional one stop routes with the benefit of being a domestic passenger much like the BA London City/Shannon/ New York.

Whether I want to fly a route that long non stop is another issue!

[Metro man]

Indeed. I did Heathrow – Jakarta non-stop earlier this year, a 13h 45min flight. In economy. I don’t claim to have felt 100% at the end of the flight, but nor did I feel particularly bad. I could have put up with another 3 hours, no problem.

I assume that was with Garuda on their new B777. They are a Skytrax 5* airline and their B777s are in 9 across configuration which would have given you a comfortable journey. Try it in the middle seat in a sardine can configuration B787 on a lesser airline and I doubt you'd want to repeat the experience.

Some airlines have a special storage area on their long haul aircraft to cater for deaths inflight.

[Andy_S]

I assume that was with Garuda on their new B777. They are a Skytrax 5* airline and their B777s are in 9 across configuration....

Correct, although their economy class is nothing special, and in terms of elbow room there’s actually not a great deal of difference between 9 across and 10 across on a 777.

You’re partly right, though. I had a vacant seat next to me and that made all the difference. Just as it would have done on a longer journey with Qantas on a 787. If the aircraft had been full it would have been a much more uncomfortable journey, regardless of airline, equipment or seating configuration.

[ExXB]

Metro man, I believe that was just SQ on two ULH A340-500s, configured for just F/J, that they no longer own. I don't believe any other airline has found the need.

[Xeque]

At this stage, QANTAS is more likely to be indulging in some ‘kite flying’ to elicit interest in the route.
Frankly, 14 x 17½ hour flights a week to Western Australia, leaving the majority of passengers with a transfer followed by another 5-7 hour flight to reach Eastern Australian or New Zealand destinations would seem to be stretching credulity.
With much fanfare they’ve announced new seats in Economy Class – an extra inch of legroom. I’ve news for Mr Joyce. Several airlines have been offering 32 inches in Economy for many years. Some even offer 33 inches as standard.
Try as I might and even with the magic extra inch along with the Dreamliner ‘mood lighting’ and better cabin pressurisation, I cannot see QANTAS getting the loads they will need to make this route a success regardless of which class of seating you look at.
Wait for aircraft able to go the extra miles to reach Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne or even Auckland and Christchurch and QANTAS and other airlines may then be on to a winner.
But, and it is a very big BUT, those flights will be 20 hours or more. The bulk of passengers interested in taking the direct route will be those looking for package deals and the least expensive options. That means they will NOT be First or Business Class passengers and I’d be surprised if QANTAS could achieve reasonable load factors in these premier classes.
Which brings the not unimportant question of passenger comfort to the fore.
Anyone willingly subjecting themselves to the torture that is today’s long haul Economy Class standard for 17 to 20 hours needs their bumps read. There is only one solution that will ensure near full loads and that is one class, Premium Economy as standard on these ultra-long haul flights. More importantly, this accommodation should be offered at Economy Class rates with additional, value added services available to increase revenues.
If QANTAS, or any other long haul airline, really wants such routes to be an economic success then that is the only way to go. Otherwise, the majority of us will continue taking the regular routes with stops like Singapore or Dubai to let us get off, stretch our legs or book into a hotel for a shower, change of clothes and a night in a proper bed.
So, it will take 2 days instead of 1. So what?

[Xeque]

Metroman,
I regularly fly BKK-LHR direct. It's 12 hours. The airline I use has 3-3-3 seating in economy and I am happy enough with that but 12 hours is my limit. Premium Economy, if I am prepared to pay massively for the extra 6 inches of legroom and 2-4-2 would make the extra hours acceptable.

[Metro man]

IIRC The SQ non stop to New York initially had a business and low density economy class configuration which changed to all business. Low density economy may have been due to payload restrictions rather than passenger comfort.

A QF B787 PER-SIN-LHR may be a better proposition as this would still give a direct service though not non stop, and would allow a mini hub in Singapore for connections from other Australian cities and the Jetstar Asia network.

Some passengers would prefer a transit through Singapore rather than Dubai and they would be catered for whilst limited seating on the B787 wouldn't encroach on the tie up with Emirates too much.

Time will tell if the numbers workout. Sydney - London non stop in reasonable comfort at a reasonable price would be the ultimate goal.

[McNugget]

I suspect there will be enough business travellers in premium cabins to make the front end worthwhile. Time is money, as they say.

For the sardine section, QF will be able to price it very keenly, and still generate the equivalent yield of a flight via DXB/HKG/SIN.

Cost sensitivity seems to be the main driver for filling economy seats these days.

[S.o.S.]

As you know, this thread originated in this forum in October 2015. I posted this in #25:

I mentioned this topic to a good friend who is a travel agent. She said they get lots of calls about booking a particular kind of flight to Australia. "I don't want the flight that stops, you know? I want the one that goes straight there. I don't want the flight that takes 24 hours."

I'm told that all agents are used to this.

[Hotel Tango]

Bottom line, just like most things in life, some will and some won't use this service whatever their reasons. We (passengers) have the final choice. My personal choice will be "no thank you", but that's me!

[DaveReidUK]

Frankly, 14 x 17½ hour flights a week to Western Australia, leaving the majority of passengers with a transfer followed by another 5-7 hour flight to reach Eastern Australian or New Zealand destinations would seem to be stretching credulity.

Given that it will require a new generation of aircraft to fly non-stop between UK and Eastern Australia, I'm struggling to see any fundamental different between flying LHR/SYD via Perth in the meantime and doing the same via DXB, BKK or SIN.

[crewmeal]

Given that QF did break the record for a non stop LHR-SYD 744 flight back in 1989, (OK so there were only a handful of pax onboard) then using a 789 on a restricted payload might work on a premium basis a La Singapore's US flight.

EKVa7eog1mM

[Trinity 09L]

If QF went back to the kangaroo route and avoided ME3 territory, then it would pick up more travellers, instead of the slog from ME3 to downunder and vv.:*

[Heathrow Harry]

But they came off the through Kangaroo routes because they weren't making enough money..............

Never sure how as they always seem pretty full but a lot of people seemed to use airmiles out of Australia

[DaveReidUK]

I'd hazard a guess that Qantas pick up a fair amount of interline traffic at DXB, which is presumably what prompted them to fly via there.

[Trinity 09L]

Which is the alternate before Perth - it is suggested Learmonth? Plenty up here.:rolleyes:

[GrahamO]

Same, Qantas have rocks in their head if they think anyone from the Eastern states would prefer a 17+ hour flight from Perth, over one stopping at Singapore or Dubai with a maximum of 14 odd hours in the air, and a decent break, rather that a quick transfer in Perth.


This.


If touchdown were in Sydney or Melbourne, it would be attractive but you're talking about landing at an Australian city whose nearest large city isn't in Australia but in Indonesia. Someone has been talking lessons from Ryanair and Easyjet in describing a location as actually near where people are trying to fly to :D

[DaveReidUK]

I must be missing something.

So the argument is that people won't use it because they would rather fly non-stop from the UK to SYD/MEL ?

Ignoring the fact that they have never been able to do the latter and likely won't be for many years to come ...

Bit of a logic fail, there. :O

[Harry Wayfarers]

If operations thru an isolated city's airport are doomed then Honolulu should be well and truly 'Cream Crackered'!

[GrahamO]

I must be missing something.


Comprehension obviously.


If someone wants to go to Sydney or Melbourne where most travellers to Australia actually want to go, they won't go through 17 hours of hell to get to the a**e end of nowhere, to take another short flight, when they could have the same number of flights and probably a shorter duration overall, and have a more pleasurable flight experience.


If you want to go to Glasgow from London, you don't go via scooter to Edinburgh on A Roads and then catch the train.

[Hotel Tango]

they won't go through 17 hours of hell to get to the a**e end of nowhere, to take another short flight

Hardly a "short" flight either at 4+ hours to SYD.

[DaveReidUK]

If someone wants to go to Sydney or Melbourne where most travellers to Australia actually want to go, they won't go through 17 hours of hell to get to the a**e end of nowhere, to take another short flight, when they could have the same number of flights and probably a shorter duration overall, and have a more pleasurable flight experience

Make up your mind.

First you're saying that people won't fly via Perth because they would rather go non-stop (ignoring the fact that they can't).

Now that we've got that out of the way, it's a moot point whether the overall journey time via PER would be any longer than via other connecting points.

It may even be shorter - as a couple of other posters have pointed out, having already entered Australia at Perth enables passengers to avoid the hell that would otherwise await them at SYD immigration.

Hardly a "short" flight either at 4+ hours to SYD.

Short of towing Australia into the North Atlantic, there's not much else you can do about the fact that it's on the other side of the world. :O

[Hotel Tango]

I was talking about the PER-SYD sector though.

[DaveReidUK]

Well that's what comes of being at opposite ends of a big country. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif

No matter how you do the sums, or where you connect (within reason), the total flight duration from the UK to SYD/MEL isn't going to vary much.

There will undoubtedly be many who prefer to split that duration into two roughly equal segments. But equally there will be some who prefer one longer and one shorter leg (I would include myself in that category).

As to whether 14 weekly LHR-PER-SYD services will be viable, I think they will but I don't have any problem with those who disagree.

Only time will tell who was right ...

[Hotel Tango]

Well that's what comes of being at opposite ends of a big country.

You don't say! ;) My original post was simply and purely in answer to the fact that I don't consider a four hour flight a "short" flight. That was all.

[NorthernChappie]

Given only a small percentage of flights will go to Perth so breakeven can't be too hard, then quite apart from the pain of "you have to stop somewhere" Sydney alternative, then I'm up for it. A few days in the west then flight (or 3 day tourist train) to the east, followed by a few days in the east, then a stop in HK / Singapore on the way back, is the basis for a nice trip. Possibly better in reverse.

[PAXboy]

I did UK/OZ earlier this year and, as I had folks to see in Perth this would have been more interesting than going via SIN. As it happened, to fit in with others, I had to go SYD - PER - MEL. But to go home in one hop? Or start the trip that way so as to get to the holiday faster?

I'm sure we'll see WA locations think up so very good deals to get folks to do the triangular tour. There is a fair amount in WA, and not just more wine!

[Heathrow Harry]

I think you're wrong Dave - I reckon going SYD-Perth- LHR would add a couple of hours on going via DUB or SIN

[DaveReidUK]

Assuming you mean via Dubai, the Great Circle distance LHR-SYD via Perth is 131 nm further, so hardly a couple of hours difference.

If you meant via Dublin, that's a pretty roundabout routeing. :O

[ExXB]

A lot depends on the schedules as well. Timing is everything.

I recall getting to my Canberra hotel room (via LHR SIN SYD) mid morning to learn that my room wasn't ready. I turned down their offer of breakfast and grabbed a seat in the lobby. I think my snoring got to them as they found a room.

A nice late afternoon arrival on the East Coast would be just perfect.

Price is less important, but I doubt they could charge a premium. The competition is just too good.

[Heathrow Harry]

I was looking at actual flight times via Dubai cp LHR- Perth (18 hours) plus 5-6 hours to Melbourne or Sydney cp 21.5 hours on Emirates via Dubai

[rjtjrt]

MEL-PER flight time is 4 hours, not 5-6.

[DaveReidUK]

Perth to Sydney on QF or VOZ is scheduled at 4:10, easily verifiable on Google.

That, plus the 17 hours quoted for LHR-PER by QF B789 makes the total block time about 3% more than the 6:45 LHR-DXB plus 13:45 DXB-SYD.

Hardly worth getting excited about.

[PAXboy]

My guess is that it's about new destinations in WA. For the last 20+ years all the tourist expansion has been east coast, the red centre and the northern animal area. So, it must be time to get people to choose WA as first and only tourist destination. That is - go to WA and then back to the UK. For the folks who have 'done' the rest of Australia - this is new sales.

[Hartington]

Aviation Week has an article on this subject. They report that there had been a "standoff" between QF and Perth airport over which terminal Qantas will use. They have been given permission to use the domestic terminal because "the viability of connecting services would be affected by using two terminals". Both ways? The article doesn't say. So that suggests they are out to capture traffic not just from Perth but a wider catchment area.

[DaveReidUK]

So that suggests they are out to capture traffic not just from Perth but a wider catchment area.

Yes, it's been pretty clear from the start that they need a mix of O&D and connecting traffic to make the route work.

[Cleared Visual]

It sounds like many of those commenting have never visited Perth. Close to 10 per cent of the metro population are English/Irish expats. Many more are FIFO workers with high disposable incomes and are used to travelling in far less comfort even than 9 abreast economy. While it may not provide the best connection for travellers to the East Coast, it should be feasible to fill 250 odd seats a couple of times a week as a destination in its own right - the Middle Eastern players dont seem to struggle to fill planes and a sizable number of their pax are ultimately headed for European destinations.

[crewmeal]

the Middle Eastern players dont seem to struggle to fill planes and a sizable number of their pax are ultimately headed for European destinations.

You may well be right, but ME carriers don't fly to LHR non stop. This thread is about flying non stop to and from LHR.

[DaveReidUK]

While it may not provide the best connection for travellers to the East Coast, it should be feasible to fill 250 odd seats a couple of times a week as a destination in its own right

We're talking about a twice-daily service LHR-PER here.

[Harry Wayfarers]

If someone wants to go to Sydney or Melbourne where most travellers to Australia actually want to go, they won't go through 17 hours of hell to get to the a**e end of nowhere, to take another short flight, when they could have the same number of flights and probably a shorter duration overall, and have a more pleasurable flight experience.


If you want to go to Glasgow from London, you don't go via scooter to Edinburgh on A Roads and then catch the train.


But aren't there direct flights between London and Glasgow?

[Metro man]

Fly Glasgow to Dubai and Dubai to Sydney on Emirates breaking the journey into two manageable legs instead.

[DaveReidUK]

But aren't there direct flights between London and Glasgow?

Quite so. And a motorway all the way, too, come to that. :O

If someone wants to go to Sydney or Melbourne where most travellers to Australia actually want to go, they won't go through 17 hours of hell to get to the a**e end of nowhere, to take another short flight, when they could have the same number of flights and probably a shorter duration overall, and have a more pleasurable flight experience.

If you want to go to Glasgow from London, you don't go via scooter to Edinburgh on A Roads and then catch the train. A dubious generalisation based on dodgy maths and accompanied by an invalid analogy.

[Heathrow Harry]

Say around 2.8 million people in W A - probably enough to fill Cleared Visuals couple of direct flights a week, maybe more

N E England has supported a daily Emirates flight for over 9 years and they have a slightly smaller population (~ 2.5 million?) and not much in the way of high disposable income.

It'll never be a major money spinner but it could work at low frequencies - certainly no way it could do 2 flights a day

[DaveReidUK]

Hardly a realistic comparison. NCL has such a small proportion of connecting traffic that I don't think they bother recording it.

But nobody is seriously suggesting LHR-PER would be viable with only O&D traffic.

[Heathrow Harry]

Well I was counting the whole of Western Australia in the 2.8mm - as others have pointed out they don't see much inter-State connections traffic being made buto get to the 2.8 you'll have to have inter-WA connections for sure

You could probably fit the highly populated bit of NE England into Greater Perth TBH

[Metro man]

The UK city of Newcastle couldn't support a direct long haul flight to any single destination, Emirates can make it pay because of their network of connections through Dubai.

[crewmeal]

Emirates can make it pay because of their network of connections through Dubai.

Freight will make more money for EK. Not sure if it can be carried on the PER-LHR-PER route though.

[ExXB]

An ULH sector requires many kgs of fuel to carry each kg of payload. Other than a few kgs of urgent next day delivery envelopes, that will cost a fortune, I doubt if QF would carry non-priority cargo on a route like this.

[Heathrow Harry]

"The UK city of Newcastle couldn't support a direct long haul flight to any single destination, Emirates can make it pay because of their network of connections through Dubai."

Last time I went through Dubai from Paris I reckon about 30% of the pax headed to the connections area.......................

[Metro man]

Dubai is a popular stop over city and Emirates offer many packages for a couple of nights accommodation and various tours.

The demographics are quite different between Newcastle and Paris, well healed Parisians may have a short holiday in Dubai to get away from the winter cold and do some duty free shopping.

Geordies are more likely to fly Ryanair to Alicante, Ibiza or some cheap booze Eastern European city where they can head straight to the nearest English pub and get hammered on Newcastle brown ale or cheap lager.

[DaveReidUK]

well healed Parisians may have a short holiday in Dubai to get away from the winter cold and do some duty free shopping.

Well you can't blame them, if they are getting over a recent illness or operation. :O

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd guess that pax from Newcastle are a mix - holidays in Dubai - it's only 6 hours after all and the NE Coast gets desperate in winter - and connecting traffic

If you're going long haul you have a choice of NCL-LHR-XXX or NCL-Dubai-XXX -

I know which one I'd take..................

[Metro man]

KLM have good connections from regional U.K. cities through Amsterdam and are worth looking at as an alternative to LHR.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about direct services between UK and Oz?

[DaveReidUK]

We exhausted the possibilities of that debate several weeks ago. :O

[crewmeal]

Go onto the Ozzie pages and they're still keeping it alive - just!

[Harry Wayfarers]

Then how about we talk about how Crystal Palace are doing in the Premier League which has about as much to do as the rest of the cr@p being uttered here?

[ceeb]

NO!, I come on Pprune to forget how badly my beloved team are doing the the Premier League, you've gone and spoilt it now :-(

[Coochycool]

Back on thread (vaguely), twice I've flown PER-MEL and according to my pax log book its a mere 2 hours 50, weight off wheels to weight on, (with Ansett, the day they went bust!) or 3.04 with Jetstar.

So not an altogether stupid way to connect to the East coast if thats what you want to do. Either direct or with a WA stopover. Perhaps not an obvious route, but if the price is right.....

They won't make a bomb on it, but doubtless as has been covered already, it will suit at least some.

After all, Emirates manages to fly 19 hours Dubai to Panama City, and who on earth wants to fly that?

[crewmeal]

Emirates have postponed the Panama flight

[PAXboy]

I did PER-MEL last year and it was simple. I think the longest routes are now Emirates to Auckland and Qatar also do that route. Air India have a couple of long routes as well. I think QF have called this correctly as Western Australia will be leaping to do package deals for places folks have never been to.

[Harry Wayfarers]

ceeb,

I recall when it was Malcolm Allison, assisted by one Terry Venables, in charge and one of my ex Ashburton schoolmates was ex player David Price.

There ... much more interesting than Newcastle to Dubai!

[TURIN]

As of this week Emirates will be flying 3 x A380 per day DXB-MAN-DXB.

A large percentage are flying on to Oz. If offered a direct MAN-PER, I would jump at it. Am I in the minority? Dunno, but I suppose the same arguments against such long haul flights were put forward when it became possible to fly direct from UK to Hong-Kong without a Bahrain stopover.

Personally I think ULH will become more popular as time goes by and passengers get used to it and the ME cash cow stopover will become a thing of the past.

[Ancient Observer]

I have a soft spot for Palace. Seldom offensive and normally good for 6 points for us.

As to ultra long haul, aus is a very long way away from uk and this weak body needs a break on the way back. That's why hkg and sin exist.

[WHBM]

One of the pleasantaries of a trip to Oz is the break part way through, especially if the connection is several hours, as often seems to be the case. Get something to eat, drink, have a walk around, even get a shower in the lounge if so entitled. And the several hours makes a Heathrow departure delay no real issue, and your bags will still make it. I would really feel a rapid connection a bit of a downer.

The one upside is that a number of current flights have an early morning arrival in Sydney, and hotels there seem to be more than usually reticent in letting out rooms until official check-in time, in fact more than once there's been an attitude of complete disbelief when I arrive at a major hotel at 8am. I think the times proposed here would be an evening arrival there, much more practical.

[ExXB]

I've never understood why the majority of flights from Europe to OZ seem to favour early morning arrivals. Late afternoon, or early evening is my preference. I admit to falling asleep in a hotel reception area in Canberra early one morning. I think my snores expedited the preparation of my room.

[Metro man]

Generally a hotel wants you out by 11:00am and doesn't want to see you before 2:00pm to allow for room cleaning between guests. Usually people will check out earlier and check in later which spreads the cleaning time out.

Being a Gold level member in the chains rewards program often helps if you want to check in early. Some hotels such as Travelodge offer early in/late out options for additional cost.

Arrival time definitely figures in my flight booking choices and saving a nights accommodation charges gets factored into the cost.

Unfortunately convenient arrival times aren't always possible due to airport curfew, slot times, aircraft availability etc. A convenient arrival time may require an inconvenient departure time so you can't win.

[Heathrow Harry]

Looks like Emirates are replacing the A.380 to Perth with a 777

[nivsy]

Is the 380 not currently twice daily to PER?

Actually in Aussie, most hotels seem to want to kick you out by 10.00am not 11.00...

[Heathrow Harry]

They offer two flights a day - looking forward it is 1 x 380 and 1 x 777

mustn't have the pax for 2 x 380 now

[Peter47]

I see that Newcastle - Perth is anna aero's route of the week (a route that airlines should consider flying based on the number of requests made to sky scanner).

Newcastle-Perth is "Skyscanner Unserved Route of the Week? with 23,000 annual searches (http://www.anna.aero/2017/02/01/newcastle-perth-is-skyscanner-unserved-route-of-the-week/?utm_source=anna.aero+newsletter&utm_campaign=121aa1c231-anna_nl_010217&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ecdbf41674-121aa1c231-86852621)

My view: we live in the real world!

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, it's a pain having to change trains in Edinburgh. :O

[Heathrow Harry]

Why do that when you can just change in Dubai??

[DaveReidUK]

That would probably set a new record for circuity at over 6 times the direct distance !

[Andy_S]

Why do that when you can just change in Dubai??

I think your crank is being ever so gently yanked..........:E

[Heathrow Harry]

Still easier and pleasanter - and maybe even cheaper given UK Rail fares........................

& certainly faster than the Rail Replacement bus.............

[PAXboy]

In The Independent today. This is an extract with the story here: First UK-Australia non-stop flight schedule revealed | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/qantas-uk-australia-non-stop-heathrow-perth-boeing-787-dreamliner-a7697921.html)

Starting 26 March 2018, a Boeing 787-9 twin jet will leave London Heathrow at around 10am, for a noon arrival next day in Perth.

The 17-hour flight officially covers 9,009 miles, but in practice the distance will be higher depending on winds and geo-political considerations; the most direct route passes over the disputed Crimea region of Ukraine.

The “Great Circle” track between the two cities crosses the Caucasus and Iran, then follows the western coast of India to Sri Lanka, which is 5,400 miles from London. The remaining 3,600 miles, about the same as from Heathrow to New York, crosses the Indian Ocean.

Lunch service will begin over Germany, with dinner over the Arabian Sea portion of the Indian Ocean. Passengers will be served breakfast two hours before touchdown at Perth.

After the longest flight from the UK, passengers are likely to be desperate to get off. But some of them will be able to stretch their legs only briefly before re-boarding the plane, which will continue to Melbourne, four-and-a-half hours further on. Connections will be available to Adelaide, Canberra and Sydney.

The return flight to London is expected leave Melbourne at around 7pm and Perth soon after 10pm.

The westbound journey will take an hour longer because of the prevailing headwinds, giving an arrival around 7am in London. It is believed Qantas already owns the Heathrow slots that permit such a pattern.

The “Dreamliner” used for the ultra-long route will have 42 business class “suites”, 28 premium economy seats and 166 economy seats.

[crewmeal]

.....and apparently cost 40% more than the standard fare whatever that is.

[DaveReidUK]

Starting 26 March 2018, a Boeing 787-9 twin jet will leave London Heathrow at around 10am, for a noon arrival next day in Perth.

The 17-hour flight officially covers 9,009 miles

The return flight to London is expected leave Melbourne at around 7pm and Perth soon after 10pm.

The westbound journey will take an hour longer because of the prevailing headwinds, giving an arrival around 7am in London.

Good old Simon Calder, a travel writer who never could quite get his head around time zones. :ugh:

The schedule starts in S18 (when Perth will be 7 hours ahead of the UK, as at present), but those timings are for W18 (28th October onwards, when PER is UK+9 once our clocks have gone back and Western Australia's forward).

[alserire]

Is there really anyone who wants to do 17-18 hours in an economy seat?

Are there possible DVT health risks?

[edi_local]

Why not? I did DOH-AKL in Y recently and found it absolutely fine. I quite enjoyed it actually, wouldn't have any qualms about doing such a long route again. Planning on doing it again next year.

You can easily keep yourself active in a Y class seat, move around now and again, even moving your ankles and knees every so often is enough to keep DVT at bay. Flight socks are provided in many amenity kits too.

If you don't want a 17 hour flight then don't book it, but many people will see no problem at all in doing so.

[rjtjrt]

Is there really anyone who wants to do 17-18 hours in an economy seat?

Are there possible DVT health risks?

Absolutely there are people who very much want this to be available.

[PAXboy]

Qantas would not be launching a very expensive (and high profile) service, unless they had done their research. Perhaps Hank Marvin and others who live in Perth will be pleased to have a direct UK service - although not riding in Y!

[WHBM]

Good old Simon Calder, a travel writer who never could quite get his head around time zones. :ugh:
Did he ever get his head around anything ?

[alserire]

If you don't want a 17 hour flight then don't book it.

Thanks for the advice.

I was just positing a question that I'm sure a lot of people might ask. Especially re: the health risks. I would imagine there are quite a few classes of people whose doctors would not recommend such a flight.

I absolutely would not book a flight that involved spending 17 hours in economy class. But maybe there are plenty who will. Good for them and good for Qantas.

[crewmeal]

Are there possible DVT health risks?

Well yes there is always a risk even when you travel by coach for any length of time. DVT depends on an individual's health.

[Pom Pax]

DaveReidUK


Good old Simon Calder, a travel writer who never could quite get his head around time zones.

The schedule starts in S18 (when Perth will be 7 hours ahead of the UK, as at present), but those timings are for W18 (28th October onwards, when PER is UK+9 once our clocks have gone back and Western Australia's forward).



Western Australia does not fiddle with its clocks. It is year round GMT +8.

[PAXboy]

DVT is not soley related to Y seating. There was a case I knew personally a fer years ago: 19 year old female who had not been on an aircraft for more than five months. But she died of a DVT.

[DaveReidUK]

Western Australia does not fiddle with its clocks. It is year round GMT +8.

I stand corrected, I was using out-of-date information.

But in that case, Perth will be either 7 or 8 hours ahead of the UK, depending on the time of year, so SC's quoted timings are wrong for both summer and winter ...

[rjtjrt]

Fares announced. Below are A$ fares.
Seem very similar to one stop Perth-London fares on QANTAS, and Gulf carriers as far as I can see, so no apparent premium being charged.

"Fares will start from $2270 for a return economy fare, $4250 for premium economy and $9725 for business class,...."

Qantas Perth to London non-stop flights on sale: Prices from $2270 return (http://www.traveller.com.au/qantas-perth-to-london-nonstop-flights-on-sale-prices-from-2270-return-gvtf3u#ixzz4fPet9M31)