PDA

View Full Version : American Airlines Pilot Dies in Flight BOS-PHX


Airbubba
5th Oct 2015, 17:57
Doesn't happen often but when it does, it usually makes the news... :sad:

American Airlines Pilot Dies Mid-Flight

By Matt Hosford
and Meghan Keneally

Oct 5, 2015, 12:58 PM ET

An American Airlines pilot died mid-flight after experiencing a medical emergency this morning, airline officials said.

The pilot, whose name and age were not released, was flying from Boston to Phoenix when the plane was forced to land in Syracuse, New York.

There were 147 passengers on board with five crew members, including the pilot. An airline spokesperson confirmed the incident to ABC News and said it is "incredibly saddened" and is focusing on taking care of the family members and crew involved.

Recordings of the crew's communications with air traffic control, obtained via liveatc.net, show that someone on the plane called in saying that the "captain is incapacitated" and at another point, saying "pilot is unresponsive, not breathing."

The nature of the pilot's sudden illness has not been disclosed.

An airline spokesperson said that one of the flight attendants is also a nurse and was trying to assist the ill pilot.

Airlines in the United States are required to have two pilots on board, and that was true in this case as well.


American Airlines Pilot Dies Mid-Flight - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/american-airlines-pilot-dies-mid-flight/story?id=34262287)

Airbubba
5th Oct 2015, 18:26
The pilot, whose name and age were not released, was flying from Boston to Phoenix when the plane was forced to land in Syracuse, New York.

I've got no room to talk after some of my mix-ups here but it seems that the flight was the redeye from PHX to BOS:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL550/history/20151005/0659Z/KPHX/KSYR

SaturnV
5th Oct 2015, 19:53
Phoenix to Boston. New crew boarded at Syracuse to continue the flight to Boston.

Pilot dies on Boston-bound American Airlines flight - The Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/05/pilot-dies-boston-bound-american-airlines-flight/El30q1M3B2sc3x0fdmzeAJ/story.html)

“I think everybody was a little bit freaked at first, but also any annoyances were gone at that point, because we were thinking about the poor pilot’s family and the crew involved,” Anderson said. “I guess for me it makes me really grateful that the backup pilot was there, and it didn’t cause any pandemonium. Everyone handled it so professionally.”

peekay4
6th Oct 2015, 03:33
Very sad. :sad:

From AA CEO Doug Parker:


October 5, 2015

Dear Fellow Team Members,

Today we received the extremely sad news that Phoenix-based Captain Michael Johnston passed away while at work. Capt. Johnston was piloting Flight #550 from Phoenix to Boston early Monday morning when he fell ill. Capt. Johnston was 57 years old.

A graduate of Brigham Young University, Capt. Johnston began his career with America West Airlines in January 1990 as a first officer on the Dash-8. He later flew the 737 and the 757, before being upgraded to captain on the A320.

I want to take a moment to thank Mike’s crewmembers on Flight #550. They took extraordinary care of Mike, each other and our customers. We couldn’t be more proud of the teamwork this crew showed during an extremely difficult time. Our airport teams in Syracuse and Boston were also instrumental in assisting our customers, and their handling is also greatly appreciated.

All of us at American extend our condolences to Mike’s wife, Betty Jean, and to his entire family. They have lost a husband and father, and many of you have lost a personal friend. Taking care of Mike’s family is our focus now, and I know you’ll join me in keeping them in your thoughts and prayers.

Dave's brother
6th Oct 2015, 08:14
A terribly sad moment, of course, and very upsetting for the family, crew, colleagues and passengers, so I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm making an inappropriately trivial point - but I couldn't let that passenger's comment go about being "really grateful that the backup pilot was there".

Not blaming the passenger, but it says a lot about how the cockpit crew are perceived by the general public: "the pilot" does everything while the "co-pilot" sits there like a spare.

But back to the current situation, I'm shocked to read how young the captain was. A very sad day.

Edit: What a very nice, heartfelt email from the CEO.

MrDK
6th Oct 2015, 09:48
First, condolences to the family, loved ones and colleagues of the pilot who expired during flight.

This post is about the media.
Listening to multiple media sources the reports generally makes statements such as "passengers panic in the air", "flight in serious risk", etc.
At times I will defend the media simply because certain knowledge cannot be expected, but how they come up with certain stories is mindboggling.
The passengers never knew about the fate in the cockpit, only that the pilot was not feeling well. I have been on a flight where there was an unscheduled landing with the same type of announcement (saw the pilot ultimately escorted out by EMT) and certainly no panic at that time.
About serious risk, give me a break. Sure it increases the workload of the other pilot, but nothing that he or she cannot handle.

SaturnV
6th Oct 2015, 09:48
According to the Boston Globe, cause of death was a "heart attack". The flight attendant who attempted to resuscitate the pilot was formerly an emergency room nurse. There was a physician seated in row 1F, but there apparently was no request for help.

Pilot dies on Boston-bound American Airlines flight - The Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/05/pilot-dies-boston-bound-american-airlines-flight/El30q1M3B2sc3x0fdmzeAJ/story.html)

Audio here
Audio: Medical emergency on Boston-bound flight - The Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/05/audio-medical-emergency-boston-bound-flight/Kam7SYKYzn82C35pwA78rK/story.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article_More)

Una Due Tfc
6th Oct 2015, 09:56
Terribly sad news. Condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.

Do AA short haul have defibrillators on board?

3bars
6th Oct 2015, 11:32
Apparently a first officer had to do a landing:eek::ugh:

Dave's brother
6th Oct 2015, 11:45
Apparently a first officer had to do a landinghttp://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif


... putting the lives of passengers and millions of people under the flight-path at risk. :rolleyes:

A more balanced view from the BBC, which actually manages to use some of the correct terminology for the pilots. And even mentions the regular health-checks that the captain would have had to go through over the last nine years.

American Airlines pilot died mid-flight from 'heart attack' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34453146)

Niner Lima Charlie
6th Oct 2015, 14:00
Back in 1979 a Braniff B-747 PIC had a heart attack and died. Crew decided there was no need to divert to the nearest airfield (LAX) and cause problems for the 331 passengers, so they flew on to the destination (DFW). The pilot's wife was one of the cabin crew.

Article here:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1891&dat=19790314&id=F6cfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1431,2362847&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1891&dat=19790314&id=F6cfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1431,2362847&hl=en

aterpster
6th Oct 2015, 14:16
What I read, FWIWs, is that the autopsy determined a fatal heart attack.

Allegedly, his widow told some newsie that he had a double by-pass operation in 2006.

If all of this is true, I suspect the FAA's medical recertification process will be subject to review, at least for first class medical certificates.

I recall we had a captain about his age die of a heart attack on a layover in Hong Kong. But, it did not happen in-flight and he did not have a history of a by-pass.

We had another who was medically disqualified when young for an abnormal heart condition. ALPA helped him fight it and he got his medical back after a year or two. Many years later he was in his late 50s and had just commuted home to California from JFK after operating a flight from Tel Aviv. He was resting in the living room while his wife prepared dinner. He slumped over deceased from the condition that was detected many years before.

standbykid
6th Oct 2015, 15:05
I hate to be the heartless bastard here, but if the deceased is pronounced by a doctor or nurse, why would you divert?

Gary Lager
6th Oct 2015, 15:46
Single pilot on a two-crew operation? Would you not divert if you were down to a single hydraulic system, or a single engine, or a single AC generator? Plus for those of us who aren't heartless bastards, the thought of flying for hours onward knowing your colleague is dead might be a little unwelcome.

aterpster
6th Oct 2015, 15:50
standbykid:

I hate to be the heartless bastard here, but if the deceased is pronounced by a doctor or nurse, why would you divert?

Incapacitation of one pilot on a two-person crew mandates diversion to the nearest suitable. It becomes an emergency at that point.

Airbubba
6th Oct 2015, 17:48
I hate to be the heartless bastard here, but if the deceased is pronounced by a doctor or nurse, why would you divert?

A side issue is that, under the guidance provided in the book by most U.S. airlines, you try to avoid having someone declared dead in flight for legal reasons.

If the person is declared dead on the ground, place and time of death is better defined for insurance and estate purposes. In 1976 Howard Hughes passed away in a Lear flying from Acapulco to Houston. Estate lawyers argued for years over when he died and whether it was over Mexico or the U.S.

The remaining pilot on AA 550 reported to ATC that his colleague was unresponsive and not breathing. The EMS communications on the Onondaga County frequency were routine and professional, another day at the office.

AA 550 landed on runway 28. Originally the medics were going to meet the aircraft on the taxiway but it was realized that they did not have a way to easily enter the aircraft without stairs. So, AA 550 taxied to Gate 6.

I know American was always considered a 'captain's airline' and the FO was not allowed to taxi. Years ago AA had the right seat steering tillers removed from their A306's even though it was standard equipment.

Do AA 320's all have ground steering on the right side? Or do some have it and some don't due to the mergers? I'd never seen an A320 with dual-bogie main gear until someone pointed out an ex-Indian Airlines plane at the gate in Asia.

aterpster
6th Oct 2015, 20:14
'bubba:

I know American was always considered a 'captain's airline' and the FO was not allowed to taxi. Years ago AA had the right seat steering tillers removed from their A306's even though it was standard equipment.

Perhaps he moved to the left seat.

Airbubba
6th Oct 2015, 21:19
Perhaps he moved to the left seat.

Great minds think alike. :ok:

I also thought perhaps that was the case but having swapped seats a few times over my uh, 'career', I don't think I would like to land solo from the other side unless it was something I had practiced. I get enough excitement watching check airmen try it after flying a desk or simulator all month.

Years ago I was one of the FO's on an augmented crew on a crossing in an ETOPS twin and the captain had a painful kidney stone attack. We were with a legacy airline where the copilots taxied the plane on their leg and both sides had tillers.

I was the relief pilot and with that company, the junior guy (some outfits have done the pecking order differently with typed and untyped FO's, or captains, for the bunkie). We decided that if the captain was unable to be in the seat for landing, I would be in the left seat and the other FO would land from the right seat since that was his normal viewpoint.

As it turned out, captain's pain subsided in time for him to sit in the left seat for the other FO's landing.

I was with an overseas outfit once where you put on your shoulder harness and locked it while the other pilot was out of the cockpit in case you had a medical emergency. It would keep you from slumping over the controls. Oddly, you didn't have to put on the O2 mask above FL 350 when flying solo.

Squawk7777
6th Oct 2015, 21:26
I know American was always considered a 'captain's airline' and the FO was not allowed to taxi. Years ago AA had the right seat steering tillers removed from their A306's even though it was standard equipment.

Do AA 320's all have ground steering on the right side? Or do some have it and some don't due to the mergers?


This was an ex-AWA A320 (aircraft 678) which has like all the LUS Airbuses tillers on both sides. F/O's are not permitted to taxi, although I was told that when the Airbuses first hit the property at pre-merger AW/US the F/O's were permitted to taxi (the tillers on the right side are not deactivated).

I believe AA's Airbuses have the tiller on the right installed as well. The FM prohibits the F/O taxiing at the "New American". Clearly, the F/O used his emergency authority to taxi the 320 to the gate in SYR.

I would like to know if you can use the defibrillator on a sitting person, or if that person has to lie flat.

There was a physician seated in row 1F, but there apparently was no request for help. I think the TSA, FAA and the press would have had a "field day" if that person had been permitted onto the flight deck!

I don't think that the FAA will make any dramatic changes to their aeromedical requirements, health checks etc. since it'll probably ground more pilots and add to the pilot shortage. There are pesky rumors that the FAA age 65 limitation will be removed soon.

Ngineer
6th Oct 2015, 23:31
"I hate to be the heartless bastard here, but if the deceased is pronounced by a doctor or nurse, why would you divert? "


That question is not worthy of an answer. A heartless bastard you are.

theAP
7th Oct 2015, 05:48
IF,There was a physician seated in row 1F why he was not called in? Are rules bigger than the human life?

DaveReidUK
7th Oct 2015, 06:41
IF,There was a physician seated in row 1F why he was not called in? Are rules bigger than the human life?

What could he (or she) have done that the flight attendant/former ER nurse wasn't able to do?

flapassym
7th Oct 2015, 07:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by theAP View Post
IF,There was a physician seated in row 1F why he was not called in? Are rules bigger than the human life?
What could he (or she) have done that the flight attendant/former ER nurse wasn't able to do?

WTF? That has to be the stupidest post I've seen to date.

tatelyle
7th Oct 2015, 08:41
Perhaps he moved to the left seat.



Not sure that would be a good idea.

Everything is in the 'wrong' place when you shift seats (and have not done so before). Every switch, knob and gauge becomes difficult to locate and your other hand may not be as 'skilled' in flying. Why would you want to compress a 2-month command training program into 10 minutes? Much easier to stay in the seat you are used to.

overstress
7th Oct 2015, 09:16
A good job the FO was somehow able to manage to taxi the aircraft onto stand although not permitted to normally... what an odd restriction.

telster
7th Oct 2015, 09:43
IF,There was a physician seated in row 1F why he was not called in? Are rules bigger than the human life?
What could he (or she) have done that the flight attendant/former ER nurse wasn't able to do?

WTF? That has to be the stupidest post I've seen to date.
Why is that so stupid? Common sense would be to use whatever help is available. But, if the FA was an experienced ER nurse, she might well be far more capable and experienced in resuscitation than many Doctors. I used to be a Paramedic, once two Doctors offered their help whilst I was resuscitating someone, one turned out to be an Eye Specialist, the other a Forensic Pathologist, neither as qualified or experienced (in resuscitation) as myself (or any ER Nurse)

aa777888
7th Oct 2015, 10:42
Why is that so stupid? Common sense would be to use whatever help is available. But, if the FA was an experienced ER nurse, she might well be far more capable and experienced in resuscitation than many Doctors. I used to be a Paramedic, once two Doctors offered their help whilst I was resuscitating someone, one turned out to be an Eye Specialist, the other a Forensic Pathologist, neither as qualified or experienced (in resuscitation) as myself (or any ER Nurse)

A little off thread, but this is quite true. And as there is no ACLS equipment or cardiac med's aboard, just CPR, O2 and defib., nothing above an "First Responder" (below EMT-Basic) level of care can be given anyway.

Over 30 years of flying on airliners as a passenger, as an EMT I've had the opportunity to volunteer medical services three times. Two out of the three times even with other nurses and doctors aboard I was the most confident and practiced at emergency medicine. The third time it was an ER nurse who ruled the roost, although I had to get the BP because it was "too noisy" for her ;). Thankfully in all three cases the patient was not in dire straights and no diversions were necessary, although the plane was met by EMS and the patients taken off first in an abundance of caution.

beamender99
7th Oct 2015, 10:55
. And as there is no ACLS equipment or cardiac med's aboard, just CPR, O2 and defib., nothing above an "First Responder" (below EMT-Basic) level of care can be given anyway.

How ever it is not just the case of not having suitable equipment on board.

In-flight surgery with a coat-hanger and silverware

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Wallace

"In the aftermath, Wallace and Wong published a brief article in the British Medical Journal about the incident. Wallace also testified before a Parliamentary committee investigating British airlines' alleged lack of investment in on-board medical equipment.] He was even more critical of US airlines in this regard, noting that his efforts would have been impossible with typical US airline medical kits not even containing aspirin, and stated that "There needs to be a major change in attitudes in the U.S., both from the government and from the airlines."

Squawk7777
7th Oct 2015, 12:05
A good job the FO was somehow able to manage to taxi the aircraft onto stand although not permitted to normally... what an odd restriction.

I have asked this question many times why the first officer is not allowed to taxi and have never received an acceptable answer. I believe that not one airline in the US is allowed to taxi from the RHS.

So much for progress ... :uhoh:

misd-agin
7th Oct 2015, 12:33
Alamo - AA 777 didn't prohibit it several years ago. Stock answer was "FO's aren't trained so you're on your own." My reply - but they can make high speed turnoffs, they can use the pedals to steer on taxiways if I give them the airplane, both events that aren't 'trained', but touching the NWS tiller is taboo?

I let them taxi after the after landing checklist is complete to the ramp.

CBinPIT
7th Oct 2015, 13:11
I would like to know if you can use the defibrillator on a sitting person, or if that person has to lie flat.


There are no restrictions that I know of against using a defibrillator on somebody in the upright position, however with somebody in cardiac arrest CPR needs to be performed as the AED warms up and analyzes the rhythm before it can be activated. CPR then needs to be continued if the shock isn't successful until the next shock can be administered. CPR is only really effective with the patient lying down on a hard surface, so that would require moving them from the seat to the floor.

aterpster
7th Oct 2015, 14:22
tatelyle:

Not sure that would be a good idea.

Everything is in the 'wrong' place when you shift seats (and have not done so before). Every switch, knob and gauge becomes difficult to locate and your other hand may not be as 'skilled' in flying. Why would you want to compress a 2-month command training program into 10 minutes? Much easier to stay in the seat you are used to.

I agree completely. And, in an airplane with only one tiller the F/O would be well advised to remain in the right seat, then moved to the left seat when stopped on the runway, then taxi in.

cessnapete
7th Oct 2015, 14:51
Im astounded that the FO is not allowed to taxi the aircraft in USA! In my UK airline the F/O, when its his sector does just that, from A320 to A380 and all the Boeings in between, from engine start to shutdown on the Gate.
Are they that inexperienced in USA?

.

CEA330Driver
7th Oct 2015, 16:38
If in fact they didn't call for a doctor, then there would be no pronouncement of death, hence, the need for a diversion. We had a similar situation last year over Eastern Siberia. We had called for a doctor but no one had come forward. However, once we began the process of deciding our diversion point and warned our crew, suddenly a doctor appeared and made the pronouncement that our passenger had passed away (there is far more to this story than I am prepared to go into, but you get the gist). We decided to continue to destination versus diverting to a Russian outpost.

Intruder
7th Oct 2015, 19:25
I have asked this question many times why the first officer is not allowed to taxi and have never received an acceptable answer. I believe that not one airline in the US is allowed to taxi from the RHS.
Not true. Our FOs taxi our 744s from the right seat.

wanabee777
7th Oct 2015, 20:49
Why would a copilot assume the additional responsibility of routinely taxiing the aircraft if he/she is not being paid commensurately for that responsibility?

MarcK
7th Oct 2015, 20:55
Why would a copilot assume the additional responsibility of routinely taxiing the aircraft if he/she is not being paid commensurately for that responsibility?
Why would a regionals pilot assume the additional responsibility of routinely flying the aircraft if he/she is not being paid commensurately for that responsibility?

wanabee777
7th Oct 2015, 21:29
Why would a regionals pilot assume the additional responsibility of routinely flying the aircraft if he/she is not being paid commensurately for that responsibility?

So what does the regional pilot get himself if he has a taxi accident?

Terminated, maybe. Little to no chance for a future job at the majors, most certainly.

RobertS975
7th Oct 2015, 21:42
OK, I am a physician AND a pilot (non-airline). Here is one possibility as to why the MD seated in FC wasn't called, nor apparently was any effort made to seek professional help... by the time the FO realized that the Captain wasn't just napping, it was already too late. If the FO had witnessed an "event", the FA would have been called and an immediate call for medical help would have been made.... all mainline US airliners have onboard automatic external defribrillatots. If the AED had been used within a few minutes after a witnessed cardiac arrest, it is possible that the Captain may have been saved.

So that is my take... I do not know how often one pilot or the other takes turns napping on redeye flights, but in this particular instance, the FO believed that the captain was asleep, and it is only within an hour of landing and 15 minutes of beginning the descent that he tried to awaken the left seat only to discover that he was unresponsive, not breathing and pulseless. Hence, no attempt to resuscitate.

PersonFromPorlock
7th Oct 2015, 22:22
...it is only within an hour of landing and 15 minutes of beginning the descent that he tried to awaken the left seat only to discover that he was unresponsive, not breathing and pulseless. Hence, no attempt to resuscitate.

Problem is, the FO had no way of knowing that the pilot hadn't just died. So he'd need to call up a doctor anyway.

RobertS975
7th Oct 2015, 22:41
But he didn't call for a doctor, did he? Neither did the FA call for medical help. Nor was any reported effort made to resuscitate the afflicted pilot.

Because the FA and the FO knew it was too late. Otherwise, it is inexplicable not to have called for help, not to have attempted to use the AED, not to have laid the patient out on the front entry floor and perform CPR.

West Coast
7th Oct 2015, 23:51
Robert

Out of curiosity piqued by the thread. Who would you say would be better equipped to handle an inflight medical emergency, a doctor or a paramedic?

Recognize there's a lot of variables.

aa777888
8th Oct 2015, 00:52
Robert

Out of curiosity piqued by the thread. Who would you say would be better equipped to handle an inflight medical emergency, a doctor or a paramedic?

Recognize there's a lot of variables.
As an EMT-I with 8 years of street experience (emergency, not a transport service), pilot, and volunteered myself 3 times on commercial flights...in general, under any pre-hospital/field conditions, airborne or otherwise: ER doc w/field experience (e.g. HEMS flight physician) > HEMS flight nurse/paramedic > paramedic (any type) > ER doc > EMT with emergency experience (not transport service) > ER nurse > everyone else. That is a fairly large generalization and YMMV quite a bit. Mostly it comes down to whatever is the strongest combination of medical skill combined with a level of comfort working outside of the hospital environment. I've personally seen some otherwise outstanding ER personnel completely brain lock when trying to execute in the back of an ambulance.

llondel
8th Oct 2015, 05:03
Listening to the audio, it sounds as though they gave the F/O a pretty straight taxi to the gate at the end of the terminal so there was probably a minimum of turning in a confined space. I'm assuming that provided he got it somewhere close to the correct place, the jetway would be easy enough to position, assuming they didn't just have a set of mobile stairs on hand.

SFI145
8th Oct 2015, 05:26
What a ridiculous world when you are qualified to fly the aircraft but not steer it on the ground. Good old USA again.

ACMS
8th Oct 2015, 05:40
Why couldn't he taxy to the gate? As long as the docking guidance wasn't left seat only he could do it. If it was left seat only they could use a Marshall.

In our mob F/O's park the Jet when it's their sector without any problems......:ok:

cactusbusdrvr
8th Oct 2015, 05:46
I knew the captain, and I'd flown with both of them. Both good guys and experienced.

The F/O was very experienced, all the pilots in PHX have been here for at least 10 years due to our base being locked in place. Company policy is that only the captain taxis the jet. Most captains on the airbus, let the F/Os taxi. Everyone is typed in the plane, you have to demonstrate the ability to taxi.

This was a sad day for us. The crew did an outstanding job. If there are critiques then they will come out in the final report, but no one has suggested that anything other than the best efforts were made to take care of Mike.

wanabee777
8th Oct 2015, 07:40
Cactusbusdrvr,

Our heartfelt condolences go out to you and your fellow Cactus pilots who knew Mike.

May he rest in peace.

grumpyoldgeek
8th Oct 2015, 14:05
As far as letting a medical doctor on the flight deck, 14 CFR 91.3 is pretty clear:

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

RobertS975
8th Oct 2015, 16:19
aa777888 answers the question well... in a medical emergency aboard an airliner, there is a large variability on the skills of those who may be in a position to help. EMTs, paramedics, RNs, MDs, fire/police... I am a gastroenterologist, and although I regularly take an ACLS retraining course, I would defer to an active critical care physician or critical care nurse in an emergency. But keep in mind that the current automatic external defribrillators are just that... automatic. They will tell you when and if a shock is warranted.

In this situation, we did not need to have an MD admitted to the flight deck. If the pilot has shown any signs of life or had the event been witnessed, the best course of action would have been to ask for help to move the man to the front exit area and work on resuscitation with CPR (if needed), defribrillation as needed, and whatever appropriate meds are currently in the medical kit.

This type of medical emergency happens relatively frequently with passengers. Again, the fact (as far as we know) that neither the FO or the assisting FA called for further medical aid from passengers means to me that they already felt it was too late.

Airbubba
8th Oct 2015, 17:37
As far as letting a medical doctor on the flight deck, 14 CFR 91.3 is pretty clear:

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

Actually, I believe the more pertinent reg in this case is:

§ 121.557 Emergencies: Domestic and flag operations.

(a) In an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action the pilot in command may take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such a case he may deviate from prescribed operations procedures and methods, weather minimums, and this chapter, to the extent required in the interests of safety.

I'll certainly agree that it's wacky to worry about cockpit door regulations and legal jurisdiction when someone's life might be at stake but that's the modern CYA workplace that we now operate in.

Airbubba
8th Oct 2015, 20:15
Our heartfelt condolences go out to you and your fellow Cactus pilots who knew Mike.

May he rest in peace.

Amen.

What a ridiculous world when you are qualified to fly the aircraft but not steer it on the ground. Good old USA again.

Don't know how this one is blamed on the U.S. (but it is indeed traditional here ;)).

Some overseas operators allow the FO to taxi, most do not, right?

Company policy is that only the captain taxis the jet. Most captains on the airbus, let the F/Os taxi. Everyone is typed in the plane, you have to demonstrate the ability to taxi.

Do you mean to say that the AA FM prohibits the FO from taxiing but the captains allow it anyway? Three decades ago that sort of thing was pretty common in the U.S. as in 'swap seats so we can give the FE a leg'. But in recent years I hardly see anything done other than playing video games and texting that isn't explicitly allowed while in the seat.

Back before the days of the U.S. P2 type ratings, some airlines that typed the FO would let you take most of the sim ride from the right seat, then hop in the left seat to taxi and do a reject to complete the requirements.

Why would a copilot assume the additional responsibility of routinely taxiing the aircraft if he/she is not being paid commensurately for that responsibility?

Similar arguments were made by some geniuses down at the union hall about not taking the type rating offer as an FO on domestic fleets. I flew international aircraft and the rating was supposedly required for crew augmentation although there were always a couple of FO's who couldn't pass the rating ride but somehow could pass the FO check.

If you ever hit the streets for BK furlough or strike, that extra type rating is nice to have in my opinion.

Anyway, in these days of heightened awareness of perceived income inequality, the other argument is made: why should captains make more money when the first officer is younger, better looking, smarter etc.? And the FO would already be bidding captain now if not for 9-11, age 65, RJ's, BK, CEO pay, the merger, etc., etc. etc...

Squawk7777
8th Oct 2015, 20:39
Company policy is that only the captain taxis the jet. Most captains on the airbus, let the F/Os taxi. Everyone is typed in the plane, you have to demonstrate the ability to taxi.

I'd be very surprised if this is true. The A320 transmits almost anything to MX, and if the F/O gets caught taxiing the airplane against company policy, then (s)he's have to do an interesting carpet dance. :uhoh::ouch:

I am typed in the A320 and was not required to demonstrate my taxi (in)ability on my checkride. I know that there are slight difference between east and west crews but letting the F/O taxi?

Reverserbucket
9th Oct 2015, 08:54
"Some overseas operators allow the FO to taxi, most do not, right?"


I believe most 'overseas' operators include taxying as a function of the F/O.


One sizeable operator outside of the U.S. that employs FAA crew include taxying training for new joiners to the R/H seat on the T7 & 'Bus.

slowjet
9th Oct 2015, 10:09
Doesn't matter a damn whether he was allowed, qualified/unqualified, able/unable...............good grief . The FO was , effectively, the COMMANDER of the aircraft and in an emergency can deviate from all rules and regs if he considers it necessary. Sadly, if the LHS pilot was determined to have lost his life, it is no longer an "Emergency" but a state of "Urgency". Full Pan call . In that state, if he felt uncomfortable taxying, inform ATC and comply with guidance. Looks to me like a very sad event very well handled.

In my day, all British manufactured aircraft could be taxiid from either seat. (There was a tiller on each side). Boeings could not. (Tiller only on the left). Of course, limited capability was available through differential breaking but you would not want to try that method for getting on the gate.

My concern is that yet again, so carefully monitored and, according to press reports, just having passed a Class one Medical, the pilot has a fatal heart attack ? Pretty useless screening, eh ?

Reverserbucket
9th Oct 2015, 11:59
As stated on the website of a popular Phoenix based AME:

"Remember passing the standards for the flight physical, does not assure that your general health is good and there are no underlying conditions that need to be addressed."

cats_five
9th Oct 2015, 12:59
<snip>

My concern is that yet again, so carefully monitored and, according to press reports, just having passed a Class one Medical, the pilot has a fatal heart attack ? Pretty useless screening, eh ?

You can only say it's useless if the carefully monitored pilots have the same rate of heart attacks etc. as the unmonitored general populace.

Derfred
9th Oct 2015, 13:09
My concern is that yet again, so carefully monitored and, according to press reports, just having passed a Class one Medical, the pilot has a fatal heart attack ? Pretty useless screening, eh ?

Not at all.

No carefully monitored screening can predict every single possible occurence of incapitation or death of a human being. Our medical science is centuries away from that.

That is why we carry two (or more) pilots.

The system we have, worked as designed. What is your issue with that? It happens extremely rarely, and on they day it did happen, the jet landed safely. That is the system we have implemented and it has proved it's worth yet again. And that is the system we continue to be happy with.

Niner Lima Charlie
9th Oct 2015, 15:10
Phoenix Fire honors fallen American Airlines pilot - Story | KSAZ (http://www.fox10phoenix.com/arizona-news/31305199-story)

The pilot, Michael Johnson's body was returned to Phoenix. Watch the video of his fellow employees at the airport.

wanabee777
9th Oct 2015, 15:25
The dignity of the event was somewhat diminished by the generic shipping container.

American could have done better.

Airbubba
9th Oct 2015, 18:00
The pilot, Michael Johnson's body was returned to Phoenix. Watch the video of his fellow employees at the airport.

Thanks for sharing this news item about Captain Johnston's final flight. I found the workplace tribute very tasteful and touching.

The dignity of the event was somewhat diminished by the generic shipping container.

American could have done better.

I know what you are saying but somehow I would be proud to take my last ride home in that plain cardboard box to such a warm reception from my colleagues at the airport.

er340790
9th Oct 2015, 18:15
Allegedly, his widow told some newsie that he had a double by-pass operation in 2006. If all of this is true, I suspect the FAA's medical recertification process will be subject to review, at least for first class medical certificates.


Well, there's the question... Is a post-bypass-op pilot really a higher risk than a pilot with undetected or sudden-onset heart issues?

wanabee777
9th Oct 2015, 20:16
Well, there's the question... Is a post-bypass-op pilot really a higher risk than a pilot with undetected or sudden-onset heart issues?

I don't think there have been enough cases to make a valid statistical determination.

The Captain of Continental Flight 61, apparently, had no prior indications.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/nyregion/19plane.html?_r=0

procede
9th Oct 2015, 20:31
Well, there's the question... Is a post-bypass-op pilot really a higher risk than a pilot with undetected or sudden-onset heart issues?
No, but you do know who is post-bypass-opp and (per definition) do not know who has unknown issues. The former is, however, a far larger risk than the average pilot.

wanabee777
9th Oct 2015, 20:40
I know what you are saying but somehow I would be proud to take my last ride home in that plain cardboard box to such a warm reception from my colleagues at the airport.

That's all well and good and I wouldn't personally care if they brought my remains back in a plain black body bag or my ashes back in a beer mug. However, in my opinion, the persons responsible for the transport of Capt Johnston's mortal remains should have afforded him more respect, especially knowing full well the likely presence of his family, friends and colleagues awaiting his arrival in Phoenix. Not to mention the poor impression it gives the public from the video coverage.

JMHO

tdracer
9th Oct 2015, 21:38
No, but you do know who is post-bypass-opp and (per definition) do not know who has unknown issues. The former is, however, a far larger risk than the average pilot.
I had a heart attack when I was 42 - totally out of the blue. I was fit, non-smoker, exercised regularly, ate right, etc. Yet one of my cardiac arteries was completely blocked (when I told a physicians assistant who was a racing buddy about it, he was shocked - he said they call that particular blockage "the widow maker"). A little roto-rooter work and I was good as new - in fact a few years ago I did what's called a 'stress echo' and the cardiologist told me he could see no evidence I'd ever had a heart attack. I was incredibly lucky.
But here's the thing - now we know and keep an eye on it. I'd argue that I'm actually at lesser risk of sudden cardiac arrest than most people my age because we're actively monitoring the issue.


Unfortunately for the pilot in question, nothing is 100% - sometimes :mad: happens.

anjowa
9th Oct 2015, 22:11
The mortality data suggests a USA 50 year old male has about 1 chance in 200 dying in a year, whereas the data for a guy who had bypass surgery is about a chance in 50.

Although flying is increased stress (7000 foot cabin pressure is a factor) the chances while flying are still pretty low, but -- big but -- the chances of a death of a guy who had not have the operation is about 4 times less.

Google can help you refine these numbers but they are at least in the correct zip code if not on the right street.

wanabee777
10th Oct 2015, 00:04
Preventive care vs stents or bypass surgery.

The Widowmaker Movie (http://widowmakerthemovie.com/)

Alchemy101
10th Oct 2015, 01:11
It's a side theme running through the thread, but I am slightly disturbed by the confidence displayed by some paramedical/nursing types in their ability to diagnose, resuscitate and provide care to the exclusion of involving an available physician on a flight.

While many EMTs are very slick with prehospital management, it is important to recognise the boundary of your skills, competence and expertise.

The trouble with the world is that the ignorant are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bertrand Russell

I was formally an 'EMT' and at that time I thought I was pretty clever as I could follow ALS algorithms exactly, bash in the emergency drugs at the right time, push the button on the defib, do lots of vital signs, do what I had been taught, and manage pretty much any presentation with great confidence at the prehospital level. I knew what to do and could tell other people what they should do as well.

I am now a surgical doctor (and have done general/emergency residency previously) and in retrospect I had no idea just how superficial my understanding, diagnostic acumen and treatment abilities were when I was doing 'EMT' things.

I predominantly do surgical things only now, but still manage acutely unwell patients on the ward when they crash. And I am still privy to a variety of junior staff (with qualification not dissimilar to mine when I was an EMT) managing emergencies, and witness them telling others what to do, with great confidence, except now I know that much of what is touted with confidence is plain unhelpful or even dangerous.

Of course you will find physicians who are very stale with their skills of emergency management, resus and the like. Everyone has stories of an elderly physician doing something silly in a resus. I might say that the reverse is frequently true as well. And out of date physicians will hopefully defer to the initial stabilisation that can be offered by EMTs/ some nurses and the like, and offer their skills at diagnosis and management as appropriate.

But it is staggeringly arrogant for EMT/nursing staff to presume, sight unseen, that their knowledge and skill resuscitating patients is superior to physicians - and that the latter shouldn't even be consulted. And the patient may well be the victim.

Be careful! As a private pilot (for fun) I wouldn't presume I have the skills of a airline pilot. And as an EMT you might just find that an experienced physician rather exceeds your ability to manage any one of the potential fatal complications of an inflight cardiac emergency.

aa777888
10th Oct 2015, 01:57
Alchemy: it's not arrogance. I do believe I did rank the right kind of MD at the top of the list of who you want there. Nevertheless even with that stipulation the great equalizer is that all you have on the aircraft is O2, maybe some airway management tools (maybe not), and an AED. When there is no pulse and no respiration due to a cardiac disease process what extra is an MD going to bring to the party except the ability to pronounce and save everyone a bit of trouble? There's no access for med's, no med's, no 12 lead, no pacing, etc., etc. I suppose you could get crazy with an EpiPen somehow. But pretty much if CPR and the AED don't do the trick the party is over.

aewanabe
10th Oct 2015, 02:11
Alchemy: it's not arrogance. I do believe I did rank the right kind of MD at the top of the list of who you want there. Nevertheless even with that stipulation the great equalizer is that all you have on the aircraft is O2, maybe some airway management tools (maybe not), and an AED. When there is no pulse and no respiration due to a cardiac disease process what extra is an MD going to bring to the party except the ability to pronounce and save everyone a bit of trouble? There's no access for med's, no med's, no 12 lead, no pacing, etc., etc. I suppose you could get crazy with an EpiPen somehow. But pretty much if CPR and the AED don't do the trick the party is over.

Not the case with my US LCC. At my outfit we carry 1-2 EMKs with very short rectification intervals on the MEL; they have quite the laundry list of specialized drugs, and an inner and outer compartment whereby the inner compartment may only be opened by an MD or DO (or flight attendant/emt/RN when authorized by Medlink). I'd be willing to bet something very similar is onboard most major worldwide carriers at this point, perhaps even required by CFRs.

Alchemy101
10th Oct 2015, 02:28
With respect, you are illustrating my point. It's arrogant because you assume you know what others can contribute, and that you can make this judgement as an EMT. Your illustration of management is very 'stuff' focussed, which is what my focus was when I was an EMT, and your list of things you believe the MD can do betrays the fact that this is not your training.

Drugs, lines, machines, things - mostly unhelpful. Actually you can improvise just about anything that is likely to be useful, and 'stuff' rarely makes much difference. The only exception is the AED if you are lucky enough to have a shockable rhythm.

That's why it's worth consulting the physician on the plane. How do you know it is an MI? How do you know it's not one of the many masquerades? And since the pilot wasn't feeling well for a while before he (presumably) arrested, how do you know what the actual causative factor was likely to be, and that the timely involvement of a physician wouldn't have been helpful? Do you really think no-one on the plane had GTN, aspirin? Or that I couldn't fix a tamponade, a tension or an airway with what is available? Despite the fact that I'm not the 'right kind of MD'

The pilot in question may well have done just the same had he keeled over in the Mayo clinic waiting room as in his cockpit. But that's unknown.

Edit: And I agree with aewanabe. Last time I had a look there was a kit with quite a few good things in it (though missing some logical things too!)

peekay4
10th Oct 2015, 02:48
An in-flight announcement was made that the pilot was sick.

That doctor in 1F is a Professor of Medicine at the UMass Medical School and Associate Chief of Medicine at St. Vincent Hospital

He witnessed what happened, spoke to the Flight Attendant after the plane landed, and has publicly credited the FA for her performance (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/05/pilot-dies-boston-bound-american-airlines-flight/El30q1M3B2sc3x0fdmzeAJ/story.html).

Good enough for me.

slowjet
10th Oct 2015, 10:32
Derfred ; Gosh. I was not aware that the reason for carrying TWO pilots was because one may die. Er, couldn't they BOTH die ? I always thought that the development from single to multi crew ops was because ONE pilot was unable to reach all of the controls from his/her seat. I do not have any issue with the SYSTEM that has just been demonstrated to work. My disappointment is that a dear colleague with a history of heart problems is finally deemed fit to fly public transport aircraft but then suffers a fatal attack. Gosh !

As for the AME with a disclaimer on his website ! Cripes, you couldn't make this stuff up. Lawyer yuckspeak for making all events of no direct guilt. I was once offered an aircraft that was in "general" good health but had a history of fluid leak onto the APU lines causing oily smells in the cabin (no, honestly). The APU was declared unserviceable. I walked away. Heard that the aircraft, later, diverted with strong undetectable oily smells in the cabin. I managed a wry smile from the safety of my pub.

Time for the Medics to take a hard review of the SYSTEM. The system I refer to is one where pilots, with long history of above average health monitoring and required to demonstrate above average levels of medical fitness get through the screening process only to the suffer fatality.

My ageing motor is due for MOT. Long history of age related problems. I bet it passes the MOT. Will I be surprised if the wheels fall off ? Not really. But it will have ticked all the boxes and the Mechanic has every right to smugly assert that he did his job, all requirements met and.....................oooops, sorry, the odd one slips through the net .

Some very muddled thinking going on, mainly from those with a corner to defend.

aa777888
10th Oct 2015, 11:10
Not the case with my US LCC. At my outfit we carry 1-2 EMKs with very short rectification intervals on the MEL; they have quite the laundry list of specialized drugs, and an inner and outer compartment whereby the inner compartment may only be opened by an MD or DO (or flight attendant/emt/RN when authorized by Medlink). I'd be willing to bet something very similar is onboard most major worldwide carriers at this point, perhaps even required by CFRs.
Good to know! Wasn't the case on the U.S. domestic air carriers I volunteered on (if you'll pardon the pun :))

Alchemy: ah, but you are one of the right kind of doctors. While you are focusing on my ranking you are forgetting that I ranked you highest. I still stand by my ranking, based on first hand experience, understanding there are always exceptions, of course.

At any rate, the best thing to do is to get all the medical skill on the aircraft together and work as a team, thereby benefiting from everyone's knowledge and skill. That's what happened all 3 times I volunteered.

Miles
10th Oct 2015, 11:11
Alchemy,
You are 100% correct. I've been a front line paramedic for the last 16 years in numerous roles including training and aeromedical emergency (helicopter/fixed wing). It never ceases to amaze me that others in my profession are so arrogant as to ignore the higher qualified and experienced. It's only been getting worse over the last few years, they leave training school with incredible attitudes and it's just embarrassing. A good medical professional recognises their limitations.

flapassym
10th Oct 2015, 12:53
Alchemy 101
Thank you, they are the points I wanted to make but lacked the vocabulary and verbal dexterity at the time. Well, I have just had major surgery, and am damn glad I had a surgeon performing it and not a paramedic or an ER nurse!

Sorry Dog
10th Oct 2015, 15:33
The mortality data suggests a USA 50 year old male has about 1 chance in 200 dying in a year, whereas the data for a guy who had bypass surgery is about a chance in 50.

Although flying is increased stress (7000 foot cabin pressure is a factor) the chances while flying are still pretty low, but -- big but -- the chances of a death of a guy who had not have the operation is about 4 times less.

Please remember this golden rule when talking about statistics: Correlation does not equal causation. I might be able to show that bad weather in China means it's more likely for a plane crash to happen in North America. Does that mean a thunderstorm with hail in Shanghai should have you changing your tickets... most people would probably think not... but the causative relationship you just suggested is similar to that. In fact, which factor affect which is a whole nother field study in statistics that get above my level of math in a hurry. Google Dickey-Fuller test and you will see what I mean.



Time for the Medics to take a hard review of the SYSTEM. The system I refer to is one where pilots, with long history of above average health monitoring and required to demonstrate above average levels of medical fitness get through the screening process only to the suffer fatality.

I think this boils down to the everyday practical safety versus ultimate safety trade offs. Could we save thousands of auto fatalities just by halving the speed limit? Probably, yes....
Is it practical? No...most of us would be strongly against this.


Can you ground every pilot that show any medical indication and possibly save some lives? It might help... (but even that is somewhat arguable since personal health related double incapacitation hasn't happened in recent history). BUT, what are the practical implications? Much shorter career lengths and higher labor costs from that... etc, etc.

Not much gain, but at a very high cost.

AngioJet
10th Oct 2015, 15:53
At any rate, the best thing to do is,to get all the medical skill on the aircraft together and work as a team
This would be my first concern during any airborne emergency. Being one of the slightly staler varieties of medics, I'm sure an EMT or an A&E nurse would be a lot more current and slick with the ALS algorithms. However, I am convinced the knowledge I and any other fully qualified medical practitioner have, would come in useful, especially with regards to considering differential diagnoses and further treatment.

Flapassym, if the powers that be have their say, it won't be long until your surgery might be done by someone not medically qualified... In some places and depending on what procedure is being done, this is already happening...:eek: Apparently my colleagues and I are far too expensive to be employed to do what we are actually trained to do...

telster
11th Oct 2015, 14:00
Aware that this is well off topic.

I was one of the first to suggest as an ex-paramedic that an experienced ER nurse could potentially have been as capable as a Doctor, in response to someone saying that someone's earlier post saying similar was the most stupid they'd ever read.

I made the point of saying that obviously common sense would be to use whatever help and expertise is available. Nowhere has anyone said I think that a Doctor should be ignored.

It is true though that an experienced Paramedic or ER nurse could be more capable at the specific skill of resuscitation than a Doctor working in an unrelated field who last resuscitated someone twenty years ago.

A Doctor with recent experience would of course be more qualified and capable, although to some extent hampered by the equipment/drugs available on board. Realistically in a simple resuscitation situation, its unlikely that he'd be able to do anything more than any other qualified ALS provider. But he'd still have superior knowledge.

I simply made the point in reply to someone saying that it was stupid that the nurse could do as much as a doctor. Thats completely possible, it depends on their respective experience/currency.

To make the point that you're glad a surgeon carried out your surgery rather than a nurse is silly. We're talking about the specific skill of resuscitation. The advanced life support course is identical taken by Nurses, Paramedics or Doctors.

Again, common sense is to use whatever experience is available.

skyship007
11th Oct 2015, 14:24
Prevention is better than a cure!

The present class 1 medical is real good at detecting pilots with a serious heart defect, BUT it's almost useless at predicting if a pilot is going to have a heart attack within the next year.

To predict the future requires a full exam by a cardiologist (The tests can be done by good nurses). Those exams are free for pilots in Germany, but might cost few quid (About 500 gbp) if done privately in India.

A full cardio exam including bike, blood and ultrasound (The ultrasound is more important, as the bike test just shows how bad the problem visible on the ultrasound is in most cases).

I fully expect the bean counters and pen pushers will get this post deleted, unless they can set up a chain of drivers only heart scan shops!

DaveReidUK
11th Oct 2015, 14:49
I was one of the first to suggest as an ex-paramedic that an experienced ER nurse could potentially have been as capable as a Doctor, in response to someone saying that someone's earlier post saying similar was the most stupid they'd ever read.

To be fair, the poster who branded that suggestion as "the stupidest post I've seen to date" subsequently acknowledged that he/she had just undergone major surgery, anasthaesia can have strange effects.

Herod
11th Oct 2015, 17:07
Does anyone know whether there are extra checks at the medical for people who have had bypass surgery?

deptrai
11th Oct 2015, 17:25
there's quite a lot of testing needed to get a class 1 back after a bypass, and then at least annual specialist cardiology review, cardiovascular risk assessment and an exercise ECG, if there's any doubt further tests.

BARKINGMAD
11th Oct 2015, 21:12
"I have asked this question many times why the first officer is not allowed to taxi and have never received an acceptable answer".

Ask the training/management departments of the relevant airline why they've deleted another piece of fact, logic and reasoning from the profession.

Alas many 'frames don't have a tiller on the RHS, presumably due to the penny-pinching when they were originally specified with the maker. Boeing 73s & NGs in Europe are but one example.

However, there's nothing to stop competent captains from allowing the F/O to "drive" these 'frames on straight stretches of taxiway with shallow turns to give them confidence, so that in the event of landing with a dead captain they could at least steer the beast off onto the highspeed exit (where supplied) and save the airport operator the hassle of a blocked runway.

All the F/Os to whom I gave the aforesaid taxi practice were always very pleased and happy to practise speed control on the ground and rudder fine steering. Of course I had to ask them not to blab about it in case the headmaster got to know of it and use the event to rap my knuckles or worse, such is the apalling environment in which we operate(d). :suspect:

BARKINGMAD
11th Oct 2015, 21:33
Further to my last I've just spotted this:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/568841-1-2-steering-tillers.html

llondel
12th Oct 2015, 01:44
When it comes to medical personnel seniority, anyone remember the case of the footballer, Fabrice Muamba? He had the medical squads of both teams out helping him, then a senior cardiac surgeon in the crowd put in an appearance too. He was interviewed after the event and said that by the time he got there, he could see that the medical people at work were already doing pretty much what he would have done at that point so he just let them know he was there in case things got worse and let them get on with it, on the basis that there was more risk in him disturbing things by joining in.

TowerDog
12th Oct 2015, 03:00
. However, there's nothing to stop competent captains from allowing the F/O to "drive" these 'frames on straight stretches of taxiway with shallow turns to give them confidence, so that in the event of landing with a dead captain they could at least steer the beast off onto the highspeed exit (where supplied) and save the airport operator the hassle of a blocked runway.

Most co-pilots with a Major Airline probably have tons of experience and have flown left seat and taxied airplanes for years before they got stuck in the right seat.
(I had 12,000 hours and previous commands of kites from DC-3s to B-747s before AA hired me. Same with most if not all the pilots in my class, lots of time and types)

wanabee777
12th Oct 2015, 05:52
I was always under the impression that the right side tiller was put there more for the benefit of the instructor pilots than the F/O's.

deptrai
12th Oct 2015, 06:02
regarding the medical "competency" debate and resuscitation, there is no doubt that doctors have both broader and "deeper" training. But there's also the question of currency. A 50 year old psychiatrist who graduated 25 years ago may simply be less current with regards to advanced cardiac life support than an intensive care nurse or a HEMS paramedic who do these things on a daily basis. Just like in flying, I'd assume there's "manual", "hands-on" skills, that perish quickly when not used. A ppl pilot who is type rated and current flying an L-29 jet trainer, who has a few 1000 on type will most likely do better flying an L-29 than someone who has gone through (arguably) "superior" ATPL training, but is flying an ATR72. Most professionals are aware of their own limitations though.

RobertS975
17th Oct 2015, 14:46
Physician and a pilot... not sure what we are "arguing" about here.

If this was indeed a witnessed arrest, then it is a shame that no apparent attempt was made to lay the man down in the forward entryway and attempt CPR and at least attach the AED leads to see if there was a "shockable" rhythm. Any onboard MD, EMT, RN, fire or police, current or recent military could have possibly helped.

The fact that this did not happen makes me suspect that the event was not witnessed but merely discovered when to FO tried to wake the pilot prior to the beginning of the descent into BOS.

Jamair
21st Oct 2015, 14:19
I'm a full time EMS pilot and have 20+ years of Intensive Care Paramedic background in a system that uses clinical judgement and knowledge rather than algorithms and protocols. I have resuscitated probably hundreds of sudden out-of-hospital cardiac arrests and gods only know how many critical care trauma and medical patients.

To have a dick-measuring contest about who shoulda-woulda-coulda in a discussion about the sad death of a guy doing his job is just....sad. :ugh:

Unless you were there you do not know the whole story or when-where-what-why, so leave it alone.

Rant done.

wanabee777
21st Oct 2015, 16:13
I used to tell my co-pilots that if I don't respond to their trying to wake me up to immediately land at the nearest suitable airport.

The only place I desire to be pronounced dead at, is in a hospital ER, not onboard an airplane!!!:\

So don't be continuing on to the destination or I'm go'n to come back and haunt you for the rest of your bloody lives!!!!!:)

Des Dimona
23rd Oct 2015, 22:36
In the airline I work for, when it's the co-pilot's sector - that means from the start of the push back until the aircraft is parked.

The only parking exception is NIGS that are left seat aligned.

So with us, there is no issue with the co-pilot taxiing the airplane if the Captain is incapacitated.:ok:

I would imagine it would cost more to remove the NWS on the right side rather than leave it.