Trans Atlantic baby-jet with no HF.

[cambioso]

A mate asked me this and I haven't a clue!!
"I have been asked to fly our Citation Excel UK to the USA. It doesn't have an HF radio, and can't climb up to FL430. What route should I take?".
Any pundits with actual experience of this problem care to advise?
Cheers,
Jez.

[Mach Jump]

Hi Jez.

I used to do this with Turbine Commanders a few years ago. This direction is usually against the upper winds, so:

Wick - Reykjavik - Narsarsuaq - Goose Bay - Bangor, FL240/260, worked for me.


MJ:ok:

[733driver]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but why can't the Excel not climb to FL430? I thought it had plenty of power and was certified to FL450 (from memory). I know there are VHF routes available.

KEF to YYR (Keflavik to Goose Bay) should easily be within the range of the Excel.

Stop in Greenland should not be required.

[Pace]

Have done it both ways and with a Citation 5 which had not got the paperwork for RVSM we flew FL 280 meaning higher fuel burns and forced to refuel in Narsarsuak depending on winds at high level you should make Iceland to Goose in one! With Narsaruak check daylight hours and weather as its not a place to go in poor weather PM me

Pace

[imriozer]

If you are RVSM and MNPS you dont have to go up to 430 to avoid the MNPS area.
you can fly UK to BIKF/BIRK and from there to CYYR (Goose bay) if you are qualified, if not, you'll have to stop for fuel in BGBW (Narsasuaq) or BGSF (Sanderstorm fyord, ILS!)
if you will have to fly via narsasuaq i would go there only if CAVOK is present.

I've done this route quite a few times with a Citation S/II without a problem.
if you need any help just ask...

Imri

[cambioso]

I'll pass your comments on. Thanks Guys.
Jez

[wondering]

For starters:

NORTH ATLANTIC OPERATIONS AND AIRSPACE MANUAL

http://www.icao.int/EURNAT/EUR%20and%20NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Doc%20007/_NAT%20Doc007_Edition%202014-2015.pdf

[space-shuttle-driver]

I suppose this operator is NOT MNPS approved. A climb of a non-MNPS aircraft to FL430 through MNPS airspace will likely be refused by ATC. You need to plan this below FL280, which is the lowest MNPS level. UK-Iceland-Goose Bay-etc is a ''Blue Spruce'' route where VHF coverage exists (at least at FL250). Can an XLS at FL270 fly Iceland-Goose? Narsarssuaq has very high approach minima. Parts of a Falcon 20 are scattered on that mountain West of the airfield....

[CL300]

I have done it countless time, winter is coming, so the rule is to land on EVERY single piece of land that you overfly. DO NOT STRETCH !!!
Blue Spruce is the legacy route over this area, VHF throughout, careful planning and chart study will give you one or two routes available to you.

BGBW is my favorite airport :-) Nowadays with Taws and the like it is stressful, because the thing is shouting like hell in crosswinds , in ancient times, this wonderful NDB/DME approach handflown was a beauty, to discover this glacier in front of you, arctic blue color, was just a reward, nowadays it is less impressive i have been told ( global warming they call it).

NAT is special, but VERY doable if you plan ahead, go like on unplanned vacation, and it can turn south very quickly.

Enjoy the ride

[dc9-32]

Be careful if planning BGBW as an en-route alternate. If you file as en-route alternate during published opening times, they are likely to send you a bill of about $1000 for "staying open with no activity".

[CL300]

and they will, to everyone filing as an alternate outside ATC...

[Global_Global]

so the rule is to land on EVERY single piece of land that you overfly. DO NOT STRETCH !!! Beat me to it :ok: When crossing it is not what it can do but to be prepared for when you cannot do it... Plus they are nice airports to add to your logbook :8

[space-shuttle-driver]

call ahead at each airport of planned landing to have a fridge magnet ready for you )))
I regret not having a single Greenland magnet on my fridge despite having landed there a dozen times.
All joking aside, gimme a PM if you need a ''navigator'' with you on this ferry!

[Yogibaboo]

I ferried XLS eastbound. CYYR to BIKF and then to Europe without MNPS Approval. They allowed us to climb to FL 430 thru MNPS airspace on both legs. Next time I ferried CJ1 westbound. EGPC to BIRK, then BGBW and CYYR. All the time at FL280. No problems with VHF coverage. At EGPC you can rent immersion suits and life raft and then return them at CYYR.

PM me if you need more details.

Yogi

[imriozer]

If you plan on climbing thru the MNPS to 430 don't count on it if the OTS are over Iceland the Greenland.

[OM inbound]

Looking for some advice. We are planning a flight with PC-24 from Europe to Greenland via Iceland. No HF, No NAT HLA approval as of now. Can the Blue Spruce routes be used at FL430 / FL450 or are they limited to NAT HLA only?

[Guptar]

Just curious - does 2 independant GPS systems qualify as 2 x long range nav equipment.

Consider a Phenom 300E as an example. It has 2 GPS systems and 2 x CDU FMS interface screens. Does that consitute 2 x long range nav systems as there is no provision for IRS on this aircraft.

Are those systems MNPS approved out of the box.

Can an owner pilot get certified to use MNPS airspace or is that reserved for operators with an AOC.

[His dudeness]

Just curious - does 2 independant GPS systems qualify as 2 x long range nav equipment.

1) Consider a Phenom 300E as an example. It has 2 GPS systems and 2 x CDU FMS interface screens. Does that consitute 2 x long range nav systems as there is no provision for IRS on this aircraft.

Are those systems MNPS approved out of the box.

2) Can an owner pilot get certified to use MNPS airspace or is that reserved for operators with an AOC.

Speaking as an EASA sufferer, 2 GPSes are enough, provided they have the required RNP rating (which they usually have)

for 2) - In EASA lalaland, MNPS is an SPA - an authorization you need to have approved. Now as an NCC Operator in EASA, you have to have a manual that is NOT approved by the authorities. The SPA then usually is an approved part of the unapproved manual. At least with the German LBA that process was relatively straight forward. How non-EASA user get their approval, I don´t know but it should be fairly easy as long as the A/C is RVSM/RNP wise capable and the crew is trained. (which in turn is part of the SPA at least in our case) CBT training is accepted.

This is the authorative document: ICAO NAT Manual (https://www.icao.int/EURNAT/EUR%20and%20NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Documents/NAT%20Doc%20007/NAT%20Doc%20007%20%20(EN)%20-%20Edition%20V.2021-1_eff%20Feb%202021.pdf)