Preliminary Report, Cardig Air 737F hard landing (Papua)

[peekay4]

Since the original thread (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/566812-another-landing-accident-indonesia-papua.html) was closed...

PT. Cardig Air, PK–BBY, Boeing 737-300 F Preliminary Report (http://kemhubri.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/pre/Preliminary%20Report%20PK-BBY.pdf)

Some info from the report:

- The 737-300 Freighter had 14,610 kg of cargo

- The Captain was PF, Indonesian, ATPL with 13880 hrs total including 4877 hrs on type

- SIC PM, Korean, CPL with 608 hrs total including 342 hrs on type

- The aircraft touched down 35 meters short of Wamena RWY 15 with a vertical acceleration of 3.68 G

- Wamena weather was 408m SCT, winds 150/15 and visibility > 10 km

- RWY 15 VASI was inop

- FDR analysis found several other hard landings (> 2.1 G) and deviations from stable approach criteria at Wamena within the preceding 107 flight hours of this aircraft

[HalinTexas]

3.68g? Holy cow. He had to have broke the concrete.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Unstable approaches are norm with all the 737s operating into and out of Wamena and then again back into Sentani.
Seen some pretty "amazing" landings at both ends.

The heavy landings don't surprise me as the runway is incredibly short. They smack it down and then full reverse...

[misd-agin]

Same elevation and runway length as KJAC Jackson Hole, WY.
Extra firm landings aren't required.

[Capn Bloggs]

Yep, that's what VASIs are designed for...

[lilflyboy262...2]

They have only just extended it in the last 12 months. Used to be quite a bit shorter.

[B737SFP]

Short runway ?

Please check... SBIL, SBVT, SBRJ, SBNF.

Regular 737-7/8 operations on all of the above. Runway strikes are not common btw !

:eek:

[No Fly Zone]

The TT and TOT hours listed for the SIC are truly impressive! Excepting SEA and some parts of Africa, FOs with 608 hours of Total Time don't even know where the lav is located. If the numbers are correct, this pilot migrated to the 733 with 266 hours Total Time? Wow! S/he's got to be the sharpest pencil in the whole box. Another way to put it might be, "... yet another Shake & Bake 'pilot.'" Two hundred sixty-six hours has NO business on the flight deck of ANY jet, anywhere. God help us all!:ugh::=

[Chesty Morgan]

That's bull****. I started flying heavy jets with 160 hours total.

[Reverserbucket]

A320 and B737 F/O's with less than 500TT are very common in the EU - both are entry-level types following primary training, so 250TT would be around the mark for many joining their first operator.

[deptrai]

Two hundred sixty-six hours has NO business on the flight deck of ANY jet, anywhere. God help us all!

260h cadets have been flying heavy jets in atheist Europe for decades, entirely without God's help.

[Piltdown Man]

260 to fly a jet is reasonable. But you need considerably more to fly a piston twin. Now they are both difficult and dangerous, unlike a jet.

PM

[Centaurus]

A320 and B737 F/O's with less than 500TT are very common in the EU - both are entry-level types following primary training, so 250TT would be around the mark for many joining their first operator

What you never hear about of course, is what frequently goes on in the cockpit where the captain is having to be practically a one-man band as the newbie has to hang on to the captain's coat-tails in trying to keep up with what is going on.
Heaven help the people down the back if the captain becomes incapacitated and the 250 hour second in command is on his own. Fortunately, statistics play a great part and the likelihood of that combination happening is remote.

Heavy landings and not a few scary moments are par for the course as the new cadet gets the feel of things for the first 1000 hours as co-pilot.

Fortunately the passengers haven't got a clue what really goes on up front especially as all they see are blokes with gold bars on their shoulders so they must be safe. :E

[deptrai]

This has been discussed endlessly, and those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit). The military in virtually every country does exactly the same. Cadet training done right is neither unsafe, nor is it a scheme to cut costs, quite contrarily.

[skyship007]

Deptrai:
This has been discussed endlessly, and those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit). The military in virtually every country does exactly the same. Cadet training done right is neither unsafe, nor is it a scheme to cut costs, quite contrarily.

a) They were selected mostly because of their ability to pay for the training!
b) I agree, but getting rid of bad habits is not too difficult if you have good instructors.
c) One thing missing is that a newbie should be supervised by a training or senior captain. That situation varies from 25hrs (US regional) to 250hrs according to who is running the show and the bean counters.

[parkfell]

Just a pity that CRM was low on the priority list during training. A cultural thing which is difficult to overcome?
Just how do you make junior birdmen speak up when they see something going wrong?
Back to the drawing board......

[ATC Watcher]

I have heard that an well known european airline expanding like hell and using Pay-to-fly had 150h TT MPLs on the right seats of their A320s.

[deptrai]

150h TT MPLs is probably not counting sim training. And if it's "expanding" like hell" it's quite likely not a legacy carrier with a tried and tested training program?

[Reverserbucket]

"those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit)."


That's not quite accurate though - not all new EU F/O's have followed a strictly managed training path. They have a CPL/IR MCC and have successfully passed selection and completed a type-rating. Where they trained and how is not really given too much weight.

[deptrai]

That's not quite accurate though - not all new EU F/O's have followed a strictly managed training path.

True. And I never claimed all.

a) selection is a check of bankaccount/credit rating of candidate

I could point you to a few places that use different criteria. A few still exist.

Only thing they care about is their pay-check

a contradiction in terms?

[JanetFlight]

Back in the day....just remembering years ago after finishing my pilots school days, 3 of us started RHS on the Lockheed 1011 with 170 hours and the other two on the 767-300 with 155TT...so, following some points of view, no-one can achieve its first job in nowhere neither anytime. Its absolutely normal starting low-time in my humble opinion. No one was born with 1000TT jetime...:rolleyes:

[Centaurus]

often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits

That sort of arrogant thinking has been going on since Pontius was a pilot. (who the f**k is Pontius some will ask) Fixing exactly what bad habits? I recall being told by a ground wallah at a RAAF recruiting centre in Sydney in 1951, that the RAAF preferred to recruit their trainee pilots with nil flying experience so that they can learn the proper (military way) to fly rather than carry over "bad habits" from civilian flying schools. IMHO that is utter rubbish turned myth; yet still believed by some.

Fortunately for this budding pilot, I completed ten hours in civilian Tiger Moths including two hours of solo before joining the RAAF. That early civilian experience helped me enormously during my initial Tiger Moth flying in the RAAF. It also increased my confidence which in turn helped me avoid the fate of several trainees on our course who joined the RAAF with no flying experience and were scrubbed for a perceived failure to learn to fly and go solo inside 12 hours.

This turned out not to be their fault but their rotten misfortune to have screaming skull instructors.

[Hotel Tango]

One airline which is expanding at an alarming rate is THY. I was only the other day wondering where they are getting all their pilots from and with what levels of experience. I know not the answer but would be interested in knowing a little on that subject.