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worldpilot
24th Sep 2015, 14:12
Is this a rare circumstance or are there many wannabe pilots out there at the controls of an aircraft? Really despicable.


Report: Unlicensed pilot flew plane that crashed, killing 5 (http://news.yahoo.com/report-unlicensed-pilot-flew-plane-crashed-killing-5-144229998.html)


WP

onetrack
24th Sep 2015, 14:21
A four seater aircraft, and there were FIVE people in it?? I think some major part of the crash problem just might be in those figures!

er340790
24th Sep 2015, 15:44
It is WAY more common than people might think.

A few years back, the FAA set itself the target in Alaska of trying to ensure that 50% of GA pilots were licensed! :eek:

(I never did hear if they succeeded...... :E)

Planemike
24th Sep 2015, 15:51
Take it they didn't worry about the other 50% and just let them get on with flying....!!!!


Have to say I find the statistic unbelievable ....

Martin_123
24th Sep 2015, 17:52
I wouldn't be surprised if an unlicensed pilot would try to fly one of those kite/xair types you can get of the ebay for the price of a inflatable boat, however an RV10? how do you invest into such machine without a licence? that's like buying and driving a top class Mercedes without any insurance.. a mad man

Maoraigh1
24th Sep 2015, 20:43
Unlicensed - had never held a licence, or had failed to renew/revalidate documents, but was current?
There have been NTSB fatals where the pilot had never held a licence, nor could any instruction be traced.
PS look at one of the C172 fatals in the same Sept 2015 monthly.

er340790
24th Sep 2015, 21:48
Have to say I find the statistic unbelievable ....

Really? The actual figure was found to be nearer to 30%!!!

Maoraigh1
24th Sep 2015, 23:05
The RV guy had held a student !licence, now expired, and presumably had had instruction . The Aircraft had over 300 hours since he built it. Flown by him?? BUT low level night flying with 5 adults in a 4 seater??? Over apparently mainly dark country?

onetrack
25th Sep 2015, 01:26
The flight was apparently initiated at around 3:00AM. The aircraft travelled approximately 6 miles from takeoff, before contact was made with treetops, resulting in the aircraft contacting the ground and being destroyed.
A witness stated she heard the aircraft and saw its lights, "going up and down, like the shape of an M".
Phugoid oscillations (porpoising) as a result of overload and a C of G well to the rear of the manufacturers specifications, anyone? .... :rolleyes:
I think we have a outstanding, unbeatable winner, in the Darwin Awards for 2015 .... :uhoh:

thing
25th Sep 2015, 02:09
Be interesting to see the tox reports. It's not often you shove four pax into an RV in the middle of the night and expect a safe outcome without some mind altering substances. Either that or he/they were just plain barking.

Mach Jump
25th Sep 2015, 10:57
Have to say I find the statistic unbelievable ....

I don't. :sad:

I would be amazed if more than 50% of the pilots in the UK are flying legally.


MJ:ok:

John Farley
25th Sep 2015, 11:27
After WWII there were of course many very experienced pilots. The new CAA decreed that all needed a licence to fly. When one of our very experienced WWII test pilots applied for a commercial and was told he would have to sit the exams (!) he refused. He continued to aviate for the rest of his life remarking that when you don’t have a licence they can’t take it away from you.

ChickenHouse
25th Sep 2015, 11:30
It appears to be more common then thought, indeed, even in commercial aviation: 13 years as an airliner pilot without license (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7733861/Fake-pilot-who-flew-for-13-years-without-licence-fined-1700.html) and the recent case of a german island hopper pilot flying for 8 years without license, unveiled by his TV mini-series documentation appearance (http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/oldenburg_ostfriesland/Superpilot-fliegt-jahrelang-ohne-Lizenz,inselflieger144.html) [link in GER].

Downwind Lander
25th Sep 2015, 13:39
I'm not sure I have this right but, according the the item in #1, the a/c crashed at 3.40am. Sunrise in Georgia is 7.00am. The moon sets at 4.30am.

Are we to believe that this fellow took off virtually in pitch black?

onetrack
25th Sep 2015, 15:15
Taking off in the pitch black would have been a cinch for this guy. :suspect:

Besides, it can, and has been done, quite easily. Here's the proof. :)

Taking off in the darkness (http://atsb.gov.au/newsroom/news-items/2013/taking-off-in-the-darkness.aspx)

Downwind Lander
25th Sep 2015, 16:42
Interesting piece, onethrack. It is reminiscent of Captain Cook (?) arriving at some south pacific island in days of yore. Because his ship was, relative to villagers' experience, so preposterously large, only the village shaman could actually see it. The others saw nothing. Their brains would not admit to the "lunacy" of a ship so big.

But we are talking about a right dipstick here, in a home built plane that he built himself. His electronic support might well have amounted to a cigarette lighter and an FM/AM wireless with a built in cassette player. That airport will have runway lights but what then? I supposed he was so bladdered that he reckoned he'd jump that fence when it arrived.

Mach Jump
25th Sep 2015, 17:43
After WWII there were of course many very experienced pilots. The new CAA decreed that all needed a licence to fly. When one of our very experienced WWII test pilots applied for a commercial and was told he would have to sit the exams (!) he refused. He continued to aviate for the rest of his life remarking that when you donít have a licence they canít take it away from you.

John: Maybe you can confirm a story that I heard a long time ago, that Brian Trubshaw had been test flying Concorde for some time, before it was discovered that he only had a PPL, and that he was 'given' a CPL to save embarrassment?

I really do hope that it's true!


MJ:ok:

Pace
25th Sep 2015, 18:44
0340 am ??? Why leave at that time? Sounds like a late party and a crazy stunt of an idea to take his mates flying, maybe under the influence of alcohol.

If he built the aircraft then he must have had a pretty good knowledge and if its true the aircraft had 300 hours then again who flew HIS aircraft?

My guess was that he flew it or he was very generous with his aircraft.
5 people ?? I wonder what that did with the C of G and at NIGHT? i wonder what night and instrument flying experience he had?

Sounds like a late party prank gone wrong or why leave at that time overloaded (probably) and out of C of G (probably) if he built it he would still of known about loading and C of G and had a pretty detailed understanding of the aircraft.

I remember something about a crash in Scotland where a drunken pilot left a party for a night flight in a Cessna 150. They found the wreckage but no body which was found miles away after he had fallen out.

Not sure what would happen with claims against this non pilot and Tort Law? regarding his PAX

Pace

onetrack
26th Sep 2015, 02:12
Pace, there's certainly a large number of unanswered and puzzling questions around the whole scenario. Let's hope the NTSB can uncover the pieces of the puzzle.
The timing of the flight does seem to indicate a post-party event, and probably a flight plan with all of 20 seconds planning involved.
It's quite likely alcohol was involved as well, I guess autopsies will soon indicate whether that was the case.

The biggest puzzle is as you say - the man had enough skills and intelligence to build the aircraft from kit form (although I note the RV-10 is available as a "fast-build", thus minimising the owners build input) - so you would expect he knew enough to understand C of G calculations and load positioning.

One would imagine he would be aware of MTOW - but it does seem to be a regular problem, that even trained and licenced PPL holders are often oblivious to their precise MTOW, and feel that manufacturers figures can be "stretched".

As regards the law and claims against his estate and insurance company - all I can imagine is that the lawyers are going to have a field day - as they identify law after law having being broken, a lack of duty of care to pax, and probably a dozen other reasons to ensure that payouts run into the multi-millions. :(

megan
26th Sep 2015, 05:46
Brian Trubshaw had been test flying Concorde for some time, before it was discovered that he only had a PPLIf UK rules are the same as here, I could see it as a possibility. As a test pilot he would not be employed in a capacity where he is flying commercial operations ie paying pax on board, or freight for a third party who is giving remuneration for the flight. Test flying by a company manufacturing the aircraft would possibly be seen as a private operation.

Capot
26th Sep 2015, 08:04
As I understand it, if you're flying for hire and reward you need a commercial licence. Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do that, unlike a salesman using an aircraft to go see a client.

G0ULI
26th Sep 2015, 17:26
When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.

The Old Fat One
26th Sep 2015, 20:57
As regards the law and claims against his estate and insurance company - all I can imagine is that the lawyers are going to have a field day - as they identify law after law having being broken, a lack of duty of care to pax, and probably a dozen other reasons to ensure that payouts run into the multi-millions.

In the UK (and I really cannot see it being different in most Western countries) if he was flying illegally any insurance is automatically void. So his estate will take the hit, assuming any of the passenger's relatives can establish that they were innocent, unknowing victims. If there are payouts they will necessarily be limited by what is recoverable from the pilots estate, following a successful civil action.

I refer to the much publicised crash of Graham Hill and the outcome thereof.

megan
27th Sep 2015, 04:21
Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do thatWhat were the circumstances of your flight Capot? A BA/Air France scheduled or charter?

thing
27th Sep 2015, 08:56
One would imagine he would be aware of MTOW - but it does seem to be a regular problem, that even trained and licenced PPL holders are often oblivious to their precise MTOW, and feel that manufacturers figures can be "stretched".


I would imagine that extends to a lot of instructors at flying schools with 150/152s as well...

kms901
27th Sep 2015, 15:21
Many , many years ago my father worked for Fairey Air Surveys. and they were commissioned to take photos of the vapour dispersion from power station cooling towers, which involved flying through the vapour clouds. It turned out that none of their pilots were instrument rated, as you normally only take photos of the ground when you can see it !

Genghis the Engineer
27th Sep 2015, 19:41
When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.

I am, more's the pity, no Brian Trubshaw - but I did do quite a lot of test flying on a PPL. I took care that I wasn't explicitly being paid as a pilot, but it was arguably a bit of a grey area.

I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.

That said - I've not seen a TP job actually advertised which didn't require a professional licence. I think it's just taken as a given. And also it should be admitted that there are some very competent TPs - generally unpaid - in the light aircraft world, with only PPLs. Well only a PPL, possibly a relevant degree or three, and generally quite a few years of relevant experience to the task.

IIRC, the first Optica fatal crash showed police pilots who had no professional licences either, and that was fairly typical of police flying at the time. I'm certain that police flying now is a great deal more professional in outlook and requirements.

G

Pilot DAR
28th Sep 2015, 04:15
I am, more's the pity, no Brian Trubshaw - but I did do quite a lot of test flying on a PPL. I took care that I wasn't explicitly being paid as a pilot, but it was arguably a bit of a grey area.

I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.

This has been exactly my experience too. I was told by the authority that I was "expected" to hold a CPL, so I did, but they had trouble pointing to exactly the regulation which required it. I could not raise an argument against it anyway.

As to the original topic, I have known a few pilots who flew with no license. In some cases, they did not have the reading skills to pass the ground school, in other cases, they had lost their medical. Unhappily, a fellow I knew killed himself and another in his MU-2 with no license between them - CFIT which was entirely preventable...

I cannot abide a non licensed pilot taking anyone with them - in either sense of the phrase....

ATC Watcher
29th Sep 2015, 06:53
I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.

To come back to the subject of this thread, the unlicenced pilots flying their own homebuilt, this is unfortunately a reality and I would not guess the percentage, but I would say it grows up rather than go down, seen the increasing complexity to obtain and maintain a licence in Europe at least.
It starts by making short circuits around your home runway with the aircraft not fully completed, posponing the "licence bit" further and further.

An anecdote I witnessed a few years ago : a guy I knew , well over 80, was selling his Jodel D112 ( 2 seats, 80 HP) that he built with his son 40 or 50 years before. When the buyer asked how many hours the guy had on it, he replied " I do not know I do not keep track anymore " , you do not keep a logbook ? No said the guy, what for ? I do not have a licence either...nobody ever asked !"

mary meagher
29th Sep 2015, 07:13
kms901, flying through the vapor of power stations? we used to do that all the time, in gliders....

Seriously, you won't find the thermal over (or descending into) the fat cooling towers. The lift is encountered over the tall narrow chimney and it is advised to avoid breathing in the fumes....no worries, in a couple of turns you can gain 3,000 feet!

deptrai
5th Oct 2015, 13:15
used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR

ME, and most importantly a type rating, which is still needed, and takes some effort. His limited him to SIC (part 125 requires a CPL for heavy a/c PIC, regardless if it's a commercial operation or not). There's also stories of PPL pilots gaining a type rating and working as sim instructors...

spinex
26th Oct 2015, 09:28
Back to the unfortunate Mr Boatright and his pax, I've read elsewhere that a coroners report including toxicology results is available online. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know my way around US documentation, but all that I can find is the NTSB Preliminary report - anyone able to point me in the right direction?

spekesoftly
26th Oct 2015, 12:39
Brian Trubshaw had been test flying Concorde for some time, before it was discovered that he only had a PPL, and that he was 'given' a CPL to save embarrassment?
I believe a number of Test Pilots of that era were gifted a CPL. Coincidentally enough, I was recently sorting through some of my late father's paperwork, and found his CPL that was issued by the UK CAA in 1976. Page one is stamped RESTRICTED, and page two has the following LIMITATIONS:-

"Valid only while the holder is employed as a TEST PILOT by HSA Ltd and for flights made in the course of that employment not being flights for the purpose of Public Transport or Aerial Work and for flights made under the Private Privileges of the licence"

As far as I'm aware, no exams were necessary. (He also held a full UK driving licence, but had never sat a driving test!)

foxmoth
26th Oct 2015, 15:15
I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.

Perfectly legal in most countries including the UK, you just need the type rating and any relevant exams (pressurisation/jet engines etc. etc.) plus of course the cash and, if you are going to use it, access to a suitable aircraft - you could, in theory, given enough money, buy a Concord, restore it and get the rating to fly it on a PPL - the test papers will probably be going at bit yellow round the edges by now!:}

mary meagher
26th Oct 2015, 17:27
The FAA in Orlando, when I presented my UK PPL plus newly minted British Gliding Association instructor rating, gave me a 4 page document (wallet size).

On page One, it said "Commercial Pilot." Page 2 continued the description...
"in gliders.....!" I felt quite chuffed carrying that around and showing it off to my chums. But nobody ever paid me any money for teaching people to fly. They had to pay when I pulled up their glider with my tow plane, which was the only way I could afford to keep it.

megan
27th Oct 2015, 03:29
I believe a number of Test Pilots of that era were gifted a CPLBrian Trubshaw was issued both a CPL and ATPL. Need better eyes than mine to read the detail, and may very well have had the limitations noted by spekesoftly re his Father. Trubshaw only had the one employer post RAF.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/30/article-2480079-1912E59A00000578-902_634x286.jpg

Whopity
24th Nov 2015, 16:39
As I recall, Bryan had never completed a Test Pilot's course. He had been at Farnborough where he had flown the Vulcan Olympus test bed and thence to Bristol and the Concorde.

akaSylvia
1st Dec 2015, 00:35
I remember something about a crash in Scotland where a drunken pilot left a party for a night flight in a Cessna 150. They found the wreckage but no body which was found miles away after he had fallen out.


I would love to find this case. Any other details? Too many Cessna 150s in Scotland to search on!

treadigraph
1st Dec 2015, 09:01
AkaSylvia, that accident was many years ago, probably early 1970s.

Maoraigh1
1st Dec 2015, 11:42
Glenforsa accident? It's weirder than that. After drinking in the hotel, the pilot asked the hotel owner to hold a torch on the runway. Pilot took off in dark, wet, night "to check lights". Disappeared. Much later, body found by shepherd, against tree, up hill. Had no injuries from crash, and had not been in salt water. Scallop divers found the aircraft offshore in the Sound of Mull. The pilot was not current.
Aircraft might have been a C172, rented from Oban. I think the owner might have been involved in recovering the Stone of Destiny (stolen by Edward 1) from Westminster Abbey.
Was someone else flying plane when it took off? There was a major drug smuggling operation using Kerrera island near Oban a few years later.

akaSylvia
2nd Dec 2015, 21:22
Ah hah! G-AVTN in 1975.

It's documented on the glenforsa website (I wish I'd started there) and on aviation-safety.net but can't find anything on AAIB.

The riddle of the lost flight | This Britain | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-riddle-of-the-lost-flight-69672.html) seems to have the whole story but who in their right minds would think a pilot seemed competent enough to land at Glenforsa at night. It gave me hiccoughs to try to land there in the middle of a sunny afternoon!

Edit: and more recently http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3467055.stm

Even mentions the scallop diver!

India Four Two
3rd Dec 2015, 08:24
From the BBC link above. A Royal Navy spokesman said:
Also we're not sure whether our divers, who are trained to go down to 30 metres, will be safe as parts of the plane are submerged at 31 metres.

"Sorry Chiefy, one metre too deep for us. Too bl**dy dangerous."

:ugh:

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Dec 2015, 12:38
There's no point in having a rule if you don't stick to it.

India Four Two
3rd Dec 2015, 15:12
GTW,

My tongue-in-cheek point was that the spokesman was probably misinformed. Non-decompression diving, which is what I and most recreational divers do, is limited to 30m. Deeper than that, you will need a decompression stop, on top of the safety stop which most divers do these days.

I am sure military divers, using conventional SCUBA gear, routinely go below 30 m, with appropriate safety measures and decompression stops.

andy1977
4th Dec 2015, 05:31
Hey akaSylvia,

I watched a video with this kind of incident on National Geography.