EASA Validation based on an FAA ticket?

[Underrated and Moderated]

Second time lucky!! (My original post was trashed due to having a naughty word in my username….tut tut….which the good folk at Plumps or PPRuNe or whatever its called, kindly let me adapt….as you can see!!)

Right then....I won’t bore everyone with why I show as a newbie (I was a different user and poster and viewer for many years)….thats that.

SO….EASA….in their NEVER-ENDING thoughtless, dumba** legislative, over staffed, under talented, tiny minded wisdom have decided to have yet another pop at “Third Country Licence” holders (also known as “The Worlds Majority of Pilots”) and have labelled us all dangerous, under trained, illegitimate and incapable people that must NEVER fly again, in Europe, after April next year, unless we sit the 14 exams required to hold an illustrious EASA licence that will enable us to carry on doing what we have been doing, all over the World, for years….OR….if the Operator resides outside of the EU (I fail to see how this makes any difference….but….there we go….when the blind lead the blind you, obviously get very short sighted changes!!).

Now then….please…before I am shot down in a torrent of abuse….I am NOT saying that you good folk that have worked very hard and sat the exams, are lesser people or pilots. I am not saying that I have a God given right to NOT sit them, despite my experience and job, no no no sir/madam. What I am saying is that EASA (is it pronounced Ee Arse Ur or Ee Ass Ur?) should at least take a pragmatic and reasonable look at it. I don’t want or need an EASA licence. I don’t need it to fly my bosses aircraft if our operator is based in Aruba, but do if he is based in Milan? How daft is that? I don’t want to fly for an Air Carrier / AOC….I just want to carry on flying my boss, earning my money and feeding my family….is that REALLY too much to ask?

EASA….do the right thing….issue ATP’s or whatever, based on the Third Country Licence for Private Ops. Limitations can say “For Private Ops Only” or similar. By all means, stop your Oxford Grads going to the USA and shortcutting the system and please, do, stop the cowboy operators with Part NCC…..but be realistic?!

I should also add, that I have started down the road of those 14 exams (its like the “Army of the 12 Monkeys” in my eyes….deemed responsible for the end of mankind and the World as we know it :ugh::ugh:) and will try to get them done in good time, but I won’t be able to by April 2016. I can get a validation I am told….but how easy is this? Has anyone on here actually done it? Why are the requirements for multi crew aircraft etc HIGHER, than if I was a kid fresh out of flight school for example (doesn’t affect me…just noticed was all)? Who has done this damned validation to allow themselves some time? If you’re wondering why I didn’t embark on the exams earlier, it’s because my job changed….thats it…!! :*

Summary then, you knowledgeable lot……. How easy is it to get a validation for a year? Have you done it? Can my NAA (CAA UK in this case…..gulp :uhoh:) cope with the demand……OR….will this date be put back again???? :D:D

All the best…..:ok:

[deefer dog]

My mum told me that I would catch more flies using honey rather than vinegar.

I suggest you start re phrasing your question by losing the attitude, or drink less before posting!

[Pace]

DD

I thought that was wasps not flies :E Balsamic vinegar has amazing properties as does Manuka Honey and probably just as good a subject to discuss as all the EASA shambles :E

Pace

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

Deefer dog ..... Im guessing, by your first line, that you either asked your Mum for permission to post or she told you what to write? Bless. Does she let you go out on your own?? Make sure you'ee wearing a scarf, Pike.

Actually, the PO has some valid points and questions and rather than just shoot him down in flames, why not try to come up with some useful answers and inaightful thoughts....if you have any??

Underrated and Moderrated..... Thanks for the post. It read as quite light hearted to me .... And too grammaticaly accurate to have been fuelled by booze?! However, if it was fuelled by a drop of something....it was done well.

The process to validate and continue to earn a crust amongst the obviously, illustrious likes of deefer, is a ball ache, but is possible and i'm glad to see that you are prepared to jump through the ill thought out hoops, that EASA have laid in your path. I will PM you re my own experience.

Can posters please at least try to keep the replies useful....or maybe meet people in person to see the size of your well educated balls when faced with a family man threatened with losing his livelihood, through a stupid regulation that doesnt apply if the operator is in the EU????? Yer....genius reasoning that is?????

Keep the faith and dont let gobs on sticks put you down

[29_Grass]

DoubleD old chap,

I am becoming confused as to where you sit on the fence. As you, and perhaps some others seem to drive a stake through the issue of you're either "one of them or one of us" in terms of EASA Vs third country licences.

Where do you sit in the issue old chap?

Let's face it, it bears no difference what so ever about what letter is on the tail of what aircraft. We ALL share the airspace in similar corporate aircraft and we all (for the best part) consciously operate to the SAME high standards.

Are you seriously going to sit there and say you do not care if a vast number of "third country" licence holders lose their jobs and their livelihoods?

Do you seriously not care for your colleagues? We are all in the same industry, doing the same job, with the same objectives, at the same airports, in the same FBO. Are you, and others, flippant enough to disregard what effects such careless legislation will have on the industry and the lives of those effected... On everybody.

The ironic thing is, if all the Third Country licence guys do convert, go dual, and suddenly its more cost effective for some owners to transfer their machines to another register...the now dual licenced guys are taking all the work...who will be the first to start screaming from their side of the fence and begin to panic about how the mortgage will be paid or how young Tarquin will continue his polo lessons or how will the attractive maid continue to be employed to wash your skids every weekend....

I'm just saying...

Really there should not be a "them or us" mentality, really this crazy batch of legislation effects ALL of us.....

[Pace]

Really there should not be a "them or us" mentality, really this crazy batch of legislation effects ALL of us....

But isn't that what this is all about? Is that not why EASA have been pushed to try to stop third country private jets and pilots.

The other thread is about EASA now trying to force private operations to be under very similar oversight to AOC ops.

EASA claimed they wanted that oversight should that not be enough without wrecking the employment of third country (FAA) pilots by demanding they hold EASA equivalent licences which have no bearing on flying an FAA jet? Its a load of nonsense and very expensive non sense

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Pace

[imriozer]

will EASA also ask you guys to have your typerating on the European license? what will happen is your type was given before you got the EASA license?
and if you are getting a new type (while having both licenses) and going to fly on a N-registered aircraft? will you need to do those takeoffs and landing in order to get the type on the EASA license ? i constantly see guys looking all over the place for someone to give them his plane so they will do the T/Ls...

Imri

[Pace]

They will accept third country type ratings but will require the equivalent licences to be held which is a non sense as the EASA licences have no bearing on an FAA aircraft!
They reasons for this are stated as more oversight but surely the new requirements to register and operate nearer to AOC standards give that oversight and control without this expensive interfering with pilots livelihoods for no realistic reason other than sour grapes!

Interesting we have an in out vote on Europe before 2017 and today's papers give the out a majority in the polls!
Even out of the EU if the Uk incorporated the EASA regs it would make an interesting legal dilemma

Regardless pilot dual licensing has been postponed a number of times and I wonder if part NCC is a way out for EASA in giving the level of control they want over 3 rd country aircraft without fiddling around with pilots livelyhoods itself causing EASA legal problems so let's watch this space

Pace

[imriozer]

if a'm faa ATPed and flying a 550, would they require me to hold an EASA ATP or a PPL will be enough?

[29_Grass]

In short, you need to hold an EASA professional licence if you are being remunerated. EASA LST to get the type added to your EASA Part-FCL. Then study and sit the 14 exams, then spend (15?) hours going round in circles in a Seneca + the other items to 'convert' and be a proud dual licenced pilot. I'm sure your boss will be fine with the extra £££/€€€ and time off while you do all the above (within a timeframe determined by your NAA if you start on a validation!)...

[Beaver100]

You are full legal to fly now and after April 2016.

If your licence is acceptable for the State of Aircraft Registry, FAA, VP-C etc and your aircraft has the rest of the documents such as C of A, C of R etc issued by the State of Aircraft Registry then there isn't a problem.
Your loyal boss / company pays a lot of money to the registry for the issuing of these documents, so if anything else is being suggested or trying to be implemented for licensing, then you may as well bin the rest of the documents such as the C of A, C of R etc, as EASA will likely find some pathetic fault with these next. Then ask your registry for a refund of all fees paid and then immediately start the deregistration process.

[deefer dog]

Where do I sit on the fence? Okay, I'll summarise;

Personally I fly both, but only because I have both licenses. The process of getting any country's professional license involves jumping through tedious hoops, and those who manage to get the licenses deal with the hoops they have to jump through. My experience is that those who don't complain get through the hoops much faster.

I also hire pilots and recently three of them needed to get their FAA tickets. Converting them involved exams and check rides. Both were accomplished without complaints. The guys did what was necessary, even though it meant revising sh@t that they had learned years previously.

Recently, because my license (British, before the EASA fiasco) was of no current value, I did obtain a validation to fly an EU registered aircraft. I jumped through the stupid hoops, again without complaint. It took a matter of two or three weeks, but that was one year ago and now I don't know the rules now.

Regarding EASA what do I think? I remember many years ago thinking that they would be the best thing since sliced bread and that I would be glad to see the back of the UK CAA. Be careful of what you wish for springs to mind now. My sentiments are that EASA is as cobbled together as the EU, and the same kind of mess. Speaking factually though EASA is NOT a member of ICAO. Sure, all of the individual member states are, but as an organization of a group of members, EASA most certainly is not an ICAO member. This is the problem it faces, and for this reason its rules and legislation is, in my opinion, are deliberately vague, and without much in the way of teeth.

As those before me have stated, EASA is going to have immense problems forcing through legislation to those operators who do not have their "principle place of business" (as clearly defined in the regulations) in the EU. Operators who do not wish to cowtail to EASA would be well advised to "re-organize" themselves very soon and re-locate their "principle place of business" to somewhere outside of the EU (like IOM for example). Of course this does NOT mean re-deploying the "base" of their aircraft which can of course remain inside the EU.

As far as the "fence" is concerned I am happy to fall into either garden, but when faced with how I operate my aircraft I am firmly on the lawn that has as little as possible to do with EASA bullsh@t.

Back to the OP. Stop complaining - jump through the hoops just like everyone else has done in the past. You are NOT special in any way...just one of a number who may, depending on the operator, have to do it.

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

Hey all.....

Slightly different tack on this thread....(sorry for the delay....been working in yet another glorious, Internet free sh**hole...)

What will EASA do when a guy is ramp checked in say, Paris, is found to be flying a VP reg aircraft, that lives in London, operated by a company in Amsterdam and he holds a Third Country/FAA licence, who lives in Madeid, but who holds a validation for that reg, flying for a company officially based in Bermuda, but whose principal base of business is Russia??????

Let's say that, in the above scenario, the pilot only holds that FAA ticket, resides in the EU and the aircraft, as you can see, is operated by a company in the EU, regardless of the registration and he (or she!) is caught red handed. What will they do??? What can they do??? Is it a slap on the wrist "Oooh...naught naughty!!"?? Is it a fine....or is it prison....it is it Court and prosecution?? What is the fine?? What are you prosecuted for?? Who takes who to court?? If the pilot is a freelancer, is he taken to court?? I mean, I for one, have seen ZERO about WHAT they can do???

EASA can't say "Oi....Noooo.....your licence isn't valid!!!" , because the person is current, on type, named on the insurance, is validated by the registry and the Feds know he is current and has a current medical?? So that can't be it?? Does the guy on the ramp do him for.....what exactly???

I think ONE case would go to court and it would all be revealed as being illegal to stop a person from working and totally unenforceable wouldn't it??

Yes....jump through the hoops, but do it the same way as EASA to FAA was done??? And let's face it, how many Brit BCPL holders got higher licences and wouldn't even have found the centre where you sit the exams??? Just sayin'....

[deefer dog]

What will EASA do when a guy is ramp checked in say, Paris, is found to be flying a VP reg aircraft, that lives in London, operated by a company in Amsterdam and he holds a Third Country/FAA licence, who lives in Madeid, but who holds a validation for that reg, flying for a company officially based in Bermuda, but whose principal base of business is Russia??????

This is not a TCO because it's operated by a company in Amsterdam which is an EU member state. Where the pilot lives, or where the aircraft is based makes no difference. The operator is in the EU so the crew will require EASA licences.

What will EASA do about it? I have no idea.


I think ONE case would go to court and it would all be revealed as being illegal to stop a person from working and totally unenforceable wouldn't it??

It is already EU law. You may not agree with it, but I suspect that the EU lawmakers have thought it through. Just get studying and pass the exams is my advise.

[Booglebox]

operated by a company in Amsterdam

Then the operator merely has to setup an office (i.e. postbox) in the state of registry, e.g. Cool Jets Bermuda Inc., with all functions subcontracted to the main office of Cool Jets Netherlands B.v. .... Right?

[deefer dog]

Then the operator merely has to setup an office (i.e. postbox) in the state of registry, e.g. Cool Jets Bermuda Inc., with all functions subcontracted to the main office of Cool Jets Netherlands B.v. .... Right? Actually, no! If you read the regs you will see that they figured this potential loophole out in advance. The definition they use for "principle place of business" means that your idea won't work.

If you read the other thread on this topic you will note that those likely to be effected by this need to "consider re-structuring" their operations, and this will involve quite a bit more than getting an offshore address and pretending to be operating an aircraft from that place.

PM me if you are looking for re-structuring solutions.

[29_Grass]

Has EASA actually worked out under what licence 'third country licence holders' will operate?

The CAA over here could not supply an answer and were still waiting on clarification...

This may already be ratified into EU law, but I doubt they have worked out any form of 'punishment' for non compliance. What can they, or will they do? how will this be policed? how can they do a check on the spot to confirm where an operator is REALLY based....

Let's not forget, last April was the final, final, no really - this is it, time that the new FCL rules were to come into play. Then came several threats of legal action from respected colleagues - which actually looked like they could hold water. There was a month to go? when the CAA over here release notice to say the implemented rules had been delayed for another 12 months...

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

Sorry to drag this on......but I don't see that anyone has actually given the OP an answer....how do you get a Validation and how long would it take???

Here's my guess..... The CAA doesn't know....how or how long!!!!! So let's say they need one by April....apply now, in Jan, Feb, or 48 hours before its required???

What a farce....

[Beaver100]

The 12 month CAA validation is normally only used for high time contract crew flying G reg for a minimum of time on non EU licences. It has no relevance for a pilot flying a non G reg aircraft in Europe. Also, 12 months doesn't even begin to cover the time needed to convert a licence to a totally separate licence system different from your aircraft State of Registry.
Don't do anything, you are fully legal to fly already. You can't suddenly be labelled a criminal for flying for years legally and professionally in Europe. Also the EU laws on precedent contradict the whole process, a minimum of 3 years of work experience in Europe in your chosen profession means that the EU has to treat the worker the same as if those qualkfications were gained in Europe. The recognition part already classed as fulfilled because of this.

[Global_Global]

Don't do anything, you are fully legal to fly already.
Go ahead! You read on Pprune by somebody who you dont know that it is ok so it must be true, no need to consult a professional on this :rolleyes:

[Beaver100]

It's a shame that you felt the need to post that Global Global. You do fly off the handle quite easily in your posts don't you ? Maybe it's fear, fear that deep down you know that the professional pilots defending their positions and careers are right.