Exhausted Pilots

[alohajec]

A.T. The cat is out of the bag and the title of the article says it all. You can do something about this.

Exhausted pilots tell Cathay Pacific their growing workloads are a threat to flight safety | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1859802/exhausted-pilots-tell-cathay-their-workloads-are-threat-flight-safety)

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Interesting that the article failed to mention one of the three salient points of the letter, namely, the decreasing level of experience in the cockpit.

[Kid Dynamite]

And, of course, the constant deterioration of our Conditions of Service.

[IDS]

Thats where a comment of the AOA is required.

[asianeagle]

Thats where a comment of the AOA is required.

The fact that the AOA declined to comment has taken the wind completely out the sails.... what were they thinking??

Should have been a massive endorsement!!

"We are our own worst enemy's" as they say:ugh:

[Lowkoon]

Wouldn't it have been better to support the C&T letter, "Although we did not write the letter, we agree with its content and share the safety concerns that the senior check and training pilots voiced to CX management." Not "We didn't write it, no comment." A united front would have been a very strong message, 'opportunity lost'.

[iceman50]

Perhaps because the letter was supposed to NON industrial!

[Arfur Dent]

Absolutely agree with Lowkoon and Eagle!
For God's sake get a grip AOA and stop treading on eggshells! YOU SHARE THE CONCERNS OF THE TRAINING DEPARTMENT.
Don't you???
Please!
:confused::confused::confused::mad:

[Anotherday]

Arfur et al,

I'm assuming some of those who signed aren't in the AOA so it would be a bit stupid for the Association to get behind members and non members alike wouldn't it? Why would any of us bother paying our dues if we're going to get AOA support anyway.

Perhaps you didn't think that one through.

[Trafalgar]

I have to admit to complete confusion as to the AOA's response. Surely a statement saying that although it was an independent submission, the AOA fully supported the concerns raised would have been appropriate. Also, there should have been an emphasis placed on the other issue, that of the significantly compromised levels of experience now evident throughout the airline. Although I am a strong supporter of the AOA, I need a convincing explanation as to the weak response, and sadly, missed opportunity to drive home our advantage.

[Adam Nams]

The cat may be out of the bag, but take a look at the comments attached to the article. Among a few that show support for your cause are these ones:


"If many of the Cathay Pacific pilots I know are representative, I am sure that if they cut back on their between-shift booze intake the issue of "exhaustion" would be reduced dramatically"


"The CAD regulations limit flying hours to 100 in any 28 day and 900 in any consecutive 12-month period. For transport aircraft operations, particularly with modern aircraft, that is not unduly onerous or excessive."


"Boo-****-hoo. These guys work 4 or 5 pilots on long-haul flights and the computer does 90% of the work. Meanwhile they live on fat expat packages and get blow jobs in the cockpit. They work one international flight and get crew rest for a week. Please."


"I wonder which American airline will be the first to dispense with all pilots in the cockpit? It will save a ton of money...
... the flying public really don't need temperamental humans in the cockpits risking their lives by flying into mountains or the sea because they have taken the wrong pills the night before. Emergencies could still be dealt with by hands-on humans hundreds of miles away from central control rooms. One control room with a few staff could remotely control an entire airline's fleet from take-off to landing. It has to happen sooner or later."


May I suggest that these are some of the great travelling public that you need to convince to get any sympathy. You need to get a public face and get the public on your side.


A letter to the editor would be a good start...

[Trafalgar]

May I suggest that the company has a group of 'letter writers' who immediately submit this dross to the papers to discredit us. I couldn't care less about such letters, but I DO care about the AOA not dealing with the press in an effective manner. Why is there no mention of the desperate lack of experience developing in the company, or a concise and effective explanation of the shambles of our rostering? Perhaps we need a professional PR group to be involved. All I know is that we seem to be missing a golden opportunity here.

[CX-HOR]

As soon as knowledge of this letter was posted on Prune the AOA would have known it would eventually leak to the Press and they would be asked for comment.

To have absolutely nothing to say because its not their letter just leaves me gobsmacked. I would have though having examples of fatigueing rostering and the other issues ready to go would have been the least they could have had prepared, oh there I go, preparation and AOA in the same sentence. Silly me.

[Sqwak7700]

You need to get a public face and get the public on your side.

Uh, no we don't. The majority of people are not very bright, they think planes fly due to magic. Let them hold their opinions as those opinions don't pay our salaries. No matter what safety concerns we might be facing in this airline, none of them show up on Expedia or Priceline when booking the lowest fare.

Any change we are pushing for will come from those in the industry (management, CAD, other regulators). The public is way out of their league, they just happened to get wind of an internal letter that was never meant for their comprehension.

It was meant for the record as a "I told you so", so that the people in charge will not be able to hide behind the "we didn't know it was this bad" excuse.

[raven11]

But then there were these three letters:

-I'm not sure how many people here are actually pilots of wide bodied commercial jets, judging from the comments I'd say hardly any! It's an interesting article and one which needs consideration. I wouldn't tell a fireman how to tackle a fire nor would I tell a doctor he is doing surgery wrong....so if almost 100 senior pilots with years of vast experience think this is a serious problem them I'm not going to tell them it's not!
Looking online the Cathay cadet scheme is open.....why don't the people here apply and do the job if it's so simple?
I will take the opinions of the professionals seriously; I suggest some others do the same!

-Do we Marco Polo members have anything to worry about, flight-safetywise ? Incidentally, it is reported that the pilots union is declining comment because it did not initiate the action. Is there some internal disagreements between the 100-odd signatories to the letter and the rest of the pilots in the union, and what is the total membership of the pilots union?
These are matters that the regular flying public who uses the World's favourite airline would want and deserve to be told, particularly when the union said "it had taken the lead to address the issue" thereby acknowledging that there is AN ISSUE.
This is too serious a matter not to be dealt with by a PUBLIC STATEMENT from the Carrier, and we do hope that the SCMP (Danny Lee) would keep an eye on this and update us till this is resolved.

-OK, my four flights year LHR-HKG will be on Virgin in future
Bye bye Cathay.

[goathead]

No one is listening to TheGreenDragon
Apparently this is possibly a HULL LOSS
It is that BAD
What is it going to take the AOA too open there eyes ?
What is it going to take for the public to OPEN there eyes ? Is not the (un?)controlled crash landing of a KA 330 in PEN not enough ?
Seriously
Anyway the checkers will just keep passing them , then they will be next in the block when the investigators come knocking.....

[Trafalgar]

...you are a piece of work Goathead....

[Michael Hunt]

Well if the 'cat is out of the bag' it has gone for a lie down and a bowl of milk rather than run around the room scratching the furniture and climbing the walls.
Haven't seen any response from Cathay, haven't seen car loads of CAD personnel showing up and demanding to see crew controls pilot records, no protests in the streets from angry Marco Polo members demanding that Cathay aircraft are crewed by pilots rather than teenagers with a Candy Crush addiction......... Nothing.
Sunday's SCMP article is now wrapping for fish heads.
Nothing to see here... Thank you bye bye.

[Dan Winterland]

OK, my four flights year LHR-HKG will be on Virgin in future
Bye bye Cathay.

You think VS pilots are any less tired? It's an industry problem.

DW (ex VS).

[Trafalgar]

...at least they have decent levels of experience, unlike our hundreds of "0" hour wonders...:mad:

[raven11]

Some more letters that appeared in the SCMP today after the paper published the entire letter from the C and T's:

-What a great letter. I read it twice to understand it better. These are not just captains, but the captains that TRAIN and CHECK other captains & pilots. The decline in experience levels of the staff (pilots) and the fatigue levels are definitely a concern for Cathay and all of us. (I had to read it twice to understand the fatigue issues - I get it now.. basically, I'm always jet-lagged after one flight, imagine doing that all year round + being told to go to Europe, then back at 4am, try to sleep that day (jet-lag impossible) & off to Singapore then maybe off to America - totally crazy time-zones & jetlag & weird rest in between = totally tired pilots and they are being made to fly to their MAXIMUM SAFETY LIMITS with hours. Not maximum normal/ ideal limits, but maximum SAFETY LIMITS..). Great letter. Great job scmp in sharing it with us.

-I'm not quite sure what a Cambridge PPE has got to do with the price of eggs as it relates to being Director of Flight Operations. I'm all for urbane educated generalists running the show at the meta level, but this is a deeply serious multi-faceted technical job and surely the career path should include a significant flying component early on? Anyway, I don't think Juan Trippe would have approved!

-Not sure why there so many problems with pilots but I do know that Cathy pilots are the best in the world, I do hope they sort things out soon.

[Arfur Dent]

Cathay Pacific "Safety is our Number 1 priority " bull**** will not work for much longer.
The Director Of FLYING Operations is not qualified to fly anything other than a desk.
Therefore - except from reported speech - she simply has no idea what she's talking about.
Cathay Pacific's Number 1 priority is money.

[Liam Gallagher]

Curtain Rod,

Valid point.

Perhaps that is why CAD 360, which is the HKCAD's guide for compliance with an AOC, has a bit to say about what qualifications are needed to be a manager of an airline operation.

Three simple questions;

1. Is the Director of Flight Operations a member of Flight Operation management?

2. Does either the Director of Flight Operations or General Manager Aircrew have any Flight Crew licences at all, let alone a valid HK Air Transport Pilots Licence?

3. How much longer is the Director of HKCAD going to sit back and watch someone completely unqualified for the task run, quite literally, the operation into the ground?

Here's what CAD 360 says. The key words are "status", acceptance" and "Valid Flight Crew Licence".

Air Operator’s Certificates CAD 360 Operation of Aircraft Part ONE
April 2012 (Amdt 33) Chap 3/1

CHAPTER 3 - ORGANISATION AND FACILITIES

1. MANAGEMENT AND EXECUTIVE STAFF

1.1 A sound and effective management structure is essential to ensure the safe conduct of operations. It is particularly important that operational management should have proper status in the Organisation and be in suitably experienced and competent hand. The duties and responsibilities of managers and senior executives must be clearly defined in writing and chains of responsibility firmly established. The number and nature of the appointments will vary with the size and complexity of the Organisation. An excess of managers can lead to fragmentation of responsibility and control; this can result in as much difficulty and inefficiency as a shortage and a lowering of operational standards can easily follow. In general, the appointment of deputies for managerial posts should be kept to a minimum and particular care should be taken in defining their functions and responsibilities. The Director will wish to be satisfied that the management Organisation is adequate and properly matched to the operating network and commitments. Managers who are also undertaking flying duties must spend an appropriate amount of time on their ground duties. Leave and duty rosters must be arranged so as to ensure the continued presence of an effective operations management in Hong Kong.
1.2 The positions held by key personnel will normally be listed in each Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) and it will be a condition of the Certificate that the Director shall be given adequate notice of any intended change in appointments or functions. When there is a management change, the revised management organisation structure and listing of key staff members should be provided to CAD for acceptance. Apart from those who have direct control of flight operations, the operator or AOC applicant should also include personnel responsible for the safety management system (e.g. Safety Manager), ground operations, crew training and maintenance arrangements. Except where otherwise agreed with the Director, nominees should have the following minimum qualifications and experience: -

1.2.1 General

Five years relevant work experience, including two years in the aeronautical industry, and appropriate management experience. Comprehensive knowledge of regulatory requirements and familiarity with quality systems.

1.2.2 Flight Operations

Valid Flight Crew Licence relevant to operations to be conducted under the AOC

[Arfur Dent]

Sorry to come back again but if that's the case, then the whole AOC is in jeapordy surely. How can that be when we just had several years with a bloody zoologist at the helm and that didn't work either.
The public MUST hear about these scandals.
SHOW US YOUR LICENCE ANNA!!

[Trafalgar]

PLEASE....!!! Don't ask Anna to 'show' us ANYTHING...!!! The potential there is too horrendous for words. :eek:

[Lowkoon]

Actually, they pretty much have put a flight attendant in charge of engineering Curtain, I wish i was joking. Im sure with an impressive sum total of no aviation experience, she will negotiate great deals with all our suppliers... :ugh:

[Liam Gallagher]

Regarding the unlicensed zoologist.

Key words; flypast, unaware of dangers, replaced.

[goathead]

Apparently......
They have circumvented this CAD requirement by having the manager of flt ops developement placed as their ' advisor'
Yes the 64 page newspaper chap

https://hk.linkedin.com/in/philelliot

[Frogman1484]

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-advice/exhausted-pilots-pen-letter-to-employer-about-safety-concerns/story-fn6yjmoc-1227542606714

I like CX's response “Further, pilot’s rosters are designed and monitored to ensure fatigue is minimised.”

With a hand built roster I was wondering which of the 2 roster builders monitor the roster for fatigue?!

[KRMQQ]

It does not matter a damn if they "monitor" the roster for fatigue. As anyone on the Freighter will tell you, the published roster is changed on a daily, and sometimes hourly basis. It is not uncommon to not fly a single rostered pattern in a month and to have in excess of 20 roster changes during that time. This and the daily calls from Crew Control to harrass one into "helping" them is what leads to extreme stress and fatigue. My family sometimes gets calls for me from CCTL even when I away on a trip - i'e. they don't even have a handle on where you are all the time. So how can this be "monitored". Simple, it can't be.

[Shep69]

Now I get it.

They just look at the original PUBLISHED roster to look at and 'monitor' fatigue.

For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here....

[megan]

They just look at the original PUBLISHED roster to look at and 'monitor' fatigue.

For some reason, it always seems to indicate all is well. Nothing to see here...Perhaps you chaps could organise a trial with this bit of technology.

SmartCap | Fatigue Monitoring System (http://smartcaptech.com/)

[73qanda]

Boy this sounds rough. I have been reading the EK thread about their rosters and most of them are on 90+ hours with sims and admin days on top. Are you guys in the same boat?

[SOPS]

My last roster before I left EK ( thank God) was 96 flying hours, yes flying hours, plus 2 days of sim.( Emirates in their wisdom thought I needed a sim check 3 weeks before I left.)

[Frogman1484]

24 sectors and 97 hours this month!:{ including 2 sim sessions:E

[SOPS]

Frog, are they credit hours.or flying hours? I'm not trying to,knock you , just wondering. Because the EK pilots are flying 97 hours a month, God knows what the duty time is.

I am so glad I'm out of it.

[joblow]

Megan,

It looks like a really good piece of kit. BUT ... unless it's free and always gives them the answer they want . I.e. No fatigue they won't even look at it

SOPS. The majority of the company are bouncing off the 100 hours in 28 days or the 900 hours per annum and that is flying hours not credit

[Threethirty]

SOP's, yes they're credit hours.

[Loopdeloop]

It's flying hours for those asking.
And you know it's bad when they're calling out 2 pilots to do a sector each of a Taipei split duty because one hits 900 hours after one sector, and they're delaying a long haul flight down route until the Captain comes back down under his 900 hours in 12 months limit so he can do the flight home.
Taipei is about 1hr20 mins from Hong Kong btw!

Edit to say that some may be talking credit hours but the 900 in 12 & 100 in 28 are flying hour limits

[Mill Worker]

Liam,

Good points that you raise regarding the CAD requirements.

Just after the appointment of the DFO was announced I was doing a sim with a CAD examiner along for the "ride". We made casual reference to the appointment of the new DFO which was apparently news to him and the CAD.

He was genuinely shocked that CX had done this without the knowledge of the CAD and left early to make further inquiries.

[cxorcist]

CX FOP is run by a non-pilot single mom and a male flight attendant. The GMs are willing to write their blame game emails and run their ill-conceived working groups. God help us!!! Dare I suggest bringing back NR, RH, and CH? In truth, it's their mess being dealt with now.

[goathead]

im so exhausted i put it in the wrong thread

[DropKnee]

Did the CAD examiner scurry off to write a strongly worded letter?
Seems to be he failed to make any changes.
Tired of all the talk and no action!