Revival of Concorde

[Alanwsg]

Is this serious?

The revival of Concorde - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/83904/concorde-flights-planned-to-resume-and-aircraft-proposed-for-display-in-london.html)

[Herod]

A nice thought. I suspect the main problem will be the technical support. There was talk, when they were still flying, of Virgin taking them over, but IIRC Aerospatiale wouldn't release the engineering drawings. Do the drawings even still exist? Shades of TSR2.

[tdracer]

Unlikely. Just the cost of re-certifying Concorde to the current regulations would be cost prohibitive - as in hundreds of millions of dollars/pounds/Euros. It may not even be possible to certify it to the current regulations.
The only way viable way to again fly Concorde would be under an experimental ticket, but that would be of limited commercial value.

[The Ancient Geek]

No chance, the manufacturers have decided that there will be zero support and without them it can never fly again.

[2dPilot]

And the Americans still won't allow a bird flying close to NY that goes faster than their military jets can catch it.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Isn't there a link somewhere between the engines and that of a Vulcan ? If they won't certify those any more, then why would they for concord. Shame though

[Donkey497]

After many years sitting unmoving, unmaintained and unpreserved, no existing Concorde hull is ever going to take to the air again.


It's completely unrealistic to think otherwise. If it had been prepped and standing somewhere like AMARC, that might, just might be a different prospect, but who would be willing to go transonic in something that's been exposed to a gently corrosive fluid for over a dozen years?


I'll definitely pass on this one......

[M.Mouse]

Whereas the Daily Telegraph was once a newspaper with very high journalistic standards and its reporting could be taken seriously it has now joined the Murdoch inspired race to the bottom of the gutter with sensationalist, ill-researched headline grabbing nonsense now the order of the day.

It is a comic. Even a minimal amount of proper research would quickly reveal the facts which will prevent Concorde ever flying again as a commercial operation.

[stuckgear]

Is this serious?

The revival of Concorde - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/83904/concorde-flights-planned-to-resume-and-aircraft-proposed-for-display-in-london.html)

TC was terminated.

It'll never fly again. It would require a full TC program. No one will fund that.

[DaveReidUK]

The byline belongs to the Telegraph's "digital luxury travel editor".

Enough said.

[lomapaseo]

And the Americans still won't allow a bird flying close to NY that goes faster than their military jets can catch it.

Why on earth would they want to catch it flying away from them? All they have to do is send up something to intercept it from in front of it.

[peekay4]

Whereas the Daily Telegraph was once a newspaper with very high journalistic standards and its reporting could be taken seriously it has now joined the Murdoch inspired race to the bottom of the gutter with sensationalist, ill-researched headline grabbing nonsense now the order of the day.

If you prefer a left-leaning newspaper, you can read the same story at the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/18/supersonic-breakthrough-concorde-could-fly-again-within-four-years

[peekay4]

TC was terminated.

It'll never fly again. It would require a full TC program. No one will fund that.

Not necessarily. I think most here are thinking of a return to "full scheduled commercial passenger service". Of course that's not going to happen.

But there are many options short of that. The group may try to obtain a more limited type certification, e.g., to allow airshow display flights, limited subsonic flights, or even limited charter ops.

There might even be spare parts to support limited ops for quite a long time.

[Falcon900LX]

Might I just add how pessimistic everyone was when the vulcan was said to be making a return.

Also regarding engineering and maintenance. I'm sure parts can be made serviceable again and from the engine stand point they've had a lot of tlc over the years of being inactive especially the one at LHR. You can find (easily) all engineering manuals for Concorde online when doing my EASA Part 66 B licence, Where I was studying had the option to have a rating on Concorde so it's definitely possible.

I think the only thing and really is the only thing stopping this from happening is money, it's going to cost millions BA should have sold them to Branson when he offered.

[M.Mouse]

If you prefer a left-leaning newspaper, you can read the same story at the Guardian:

Newspaper and Guardian is an oxymoron.

....BA should have sold them to Branson when he offered.

Branson (the launch customer for the A380 remember?) would have painted them in his livery and then not flown them. He had no intention nor ability to fly them but then why should practicalities interfere with his self-serving public posturing?

Might I just add how pessimistic everyone was when the vulcan was said to be making a return.

And having sucked millions of £s for the past few years it is now errrr.....grounded again after this season. It is arguable if it was worth it but please not another bottomless pit just to keep one aircraft in the air to satisfy those whose misty eyed nostalgia overrules their common sense.

[Falcon900LX]

I agree, but the Vulcan has been publicly and lottery funded so you can't really complain.

Concorde from a business standpoint just isn't viable and as much as I'd like to see it in the air again it won't happen.

[Stanwell]

Mr Mouse, you forgot to kick the cat before logging on.

[Downwind Lander]

Is there a cut down certification category to cover only exhibition fly pasts?

[RealUlli]

Is there a cut down certification category to cover only exhibition fly pasts?I think the experimental category could be used for that.

I suspect, if they're serious, they'll have something like the Breitling Super Constellation in mind. If a sufficiently deep-pocketed sponsor can be found, the project is feasible, IMHO.

I wonder if our resident Concorde People would be willing (and allowed) to help out, e.g. training pilots, consulting, ...

[Wander00]

In my late 20s I worked for the then Marshall of Cambridge (Engineering) Ltd as a "management trainee" in Production Control. I been there about 2 or 3 months when I was told I was to be given a "special job", indeed it was "special" - production controlling assemblies going into the droop nose and visor of I think it was the second and third prototypes. So I have a great affection for the aeroplane, but sadly I do not expect one to fly again

[SLFguy]

There WILL be egg on some faces in this thread - I shall look forward to 2019 and returning to it.

[PAXfips]

That group was 'confident' for the 2012 Olympics - and nothing happened.

So unnamed investor propells 40 Million for a ground-display?
But a 120M would make it fly again? Doesnt compute for me.

He could do "better" with that money :p

[TURIN]

....when doing my EASA Part 66 B licence, Where I was studying had the option to have a rating on Concorde so it's definitely possible.

How will you gain the experience on type?

There are Licenced Engineers currently studying for A320s who are struggling to get the required practical experience and OJT.


This is a bunch chancers or deluded misguided fools who have no clue what is involved to even get one airworthy never mind keep it that way for commercial operations.

[Phileas Fogg]

That group was 'confident' for the 2012 Olympics - and nothing happened.

Rumour is/was that one of the Concorde's in Toulouse remains in a semi-airworthy condition.

Further rumour was that it was being planned to do a flypast as part of the opening ceremony of the 2012 Paris Olympics.

But another nation put paid to that idea!

[aox]

Might I just add how pessimistic everyone was when the vulcan was said to be making a return.

I remember seeing it in a hangar at Bruntingthorpe, sign nearby about raising money, but nobody working on it, and it did seem a long shot.

That was before the lottery funding.

[gordonroxburgh]

The really strange things here are :

We have a Concorde at LHR, which BA would snap the hands off anyone with a funded sensible plan for, but BA refuse to deal with club Concorde. I would suggest they have done their due diligence and are quietly laughing?

So Club Concorde come up with a plan B for a Concorde on the Thames - buy a Concorde from a small French Museum, where its owned by the local people. They plan to give all the locals €300 each.

Everyone knows Concorde can't fly again after the support infrastructure and spares logistics were disbanded in 2003, coupled to the fact that the design authority Airbus are 100% not in favour; so who would provided £120m of funding with no return?

The Concorde they are targeting to fly, F-BTSD at Le Bourget, is a French heritage artefact, owed by the Republic of France in the same way they own the Mona Lisa. Do with think thy will let a load of Brits come over and nab it.


I think quiet news day all around for a web only ' journalist' at Telegraph sums it all up.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Wot Gordon said. These birds haven't flown, haven't even been aeroplanes, for over a decade. They are museum artefacts decomissioned with no thought to recommisioning and no moth balling. There are no spares, no drawings, no specialist tools etc etc. You would have to re-certify these artifacts, and all their highly complex 1960s technology systems. And you'd need Airbus on board (no chance), a TC (no chance), and a C of A (no chance). And none are for sale.

If you believe Branson could have kept it flying, you probably also believe in the Easter Bunny. Smart marketing guy, old beardie. Half the population or more of UK think he could have saved it but for wicked old BA and AF saying "NON". Yeah! :rolleyes:

It would probably be cheaper and easier to design a build a modern replacement supersonic airliner than to get a Concorde flying again.

And anyway, she was a bird of her time, a bird of an age when what could be done was done (like sending men to the Moon and bringing them back). She is not a creature of the safety-obsessed accountant-driven unadventurous 21st century. Remember her for the glorious aeroplane she was and rejoice that we had her for almost 3 magnificent Mach 2 decades.

[Wander00]

SSD - well said. Nice dream that one might fly, but that is it, a dream!

[Discorde]

When the Concordes were retired I sent the following to Private Eye for their 'Poets Corner' slot:

So, farewell then, Concorde
Supersonic Wonderjet
‘Arrive before you depart’
That was your slogan
If only you could depart in 2003
And arrive thirty years earlier
Then you could start
All over again

E J Thrubbshaw (17½)

The 'standard' poet for the 'So, farewell then . . . ' format was 'E J Thribb'. Since Brian Trubshaw was one of the Concorde test pilots I thought a mod would be appropriate.

My submission didn't make it into print - they chose a different version.

[gordonroxburgh]

And for completeness, here is a (translated) press release from the air and space museum.

Press release

Le Bourget, 20 September 2015

DISCLAIMER: The two Concorde of of Air and Space Museum are not for sale
Following recent announcements regarding the possible return of Concorde in flight, and the weekend of Heritage Days, the Air and Space Museum recalls the status of its collections.

If it happens that uninformed visitors ask to the museum reception tickets to Mars or Pluto, the idea to fly again one of the Concorde Museum of Air and Space is equally fanciful.

These two aircraft are part of the national heritage. As the Heritage Code, they are inalienable and imprescriptible, as are the Mona Lisa or the Palace of Versailles. The mission of the Air and Space Museum is to transmit to future generations, just like the 400 other aircraft and objects in the collection. The policy of the Air and Space Museum is not to maintain its aircraft in flying condition, to best protect these parts for some are unique.

There is therefore no question of the two Concorde of Air and Space Museum are sold, regardless of the financial offer, nor will fly again someday.

However, the two Concorde of Air and Space Musuem can be visited by the public throughout the year.

Virtual tour of Concorde 001: Le cockpit du prototype Concorde 001 F-WTSS à 360°> Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace - Site officiel (http://www.museeairespace.fr/?id=2114)

Virtual tour of Sierra Delta BAC-Sud Aviation Concorde 213 F-BTSD> Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace - Site officiel (http://www.museeairespace.fr/?id=2128)

Press contact: Pascale NIZET - 06 03 74 18 42

[DaveReidUK]

The sad thing is that the original, rather more modest, aim of the group - to display two of the existing Concordes in London and Paris riverside locations - is actually rather commendable, and could even produce a reasonable ROI.

It's a shame that the group appears to have been distracted by the delusional "return to flight" project.

[Preon]

Maybe an example could have been kept in live condition for taxiing as per aircraft in the Bruntingthorpe collection?
Duxford's example was low on hours when retired but then there's the noise issue and having travelled on the 1030 Heathrow to Belfast flight many times the previous slot was Concorde , I'll never forget the re-heat opening up yards ahead of us.....

[wiggy]

Rumour is/was that one of the Concorde's in Toulouse remains in a semi-airworthy condition.

I've seen it recently.

It's not.

[Stanwell]

Reheat?
I didn't think Concorde used reheat.

[Kitbag]

Reheat?
I didn't think Concorde used reheat.

Oh yes it did:

http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/ba9093/ba9093_4.jpg

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Concorde used reheat (afterburning) for take off then de-selected, and engaged again to accelerate from subsonic cruise (M 0.95) to M 1.7. Then they were de-selected and she continued on to M 2.0 supercuise in dry power.

[PAXboy]

Of course it won't happen! These guys should be able to pay themselves a salary for a while and then be 'very disappointed' when nothing happens. Should the maintenance authority ever dream of this, it might turn into a nightmare when they think of a prang like Shoreham.

OTOH, Exhibition in Central London sounds good.

[Volume]

It may not even be possible to certify it to the current regulations.there are no current regulations for supersonic aircraft. So the old ones are still the most recent ones.
20 years ago it was a dream to se a Me 262 flying again. No more airworthy engines existing, no full set of plans, nobody current flying the type (for about 50 years...) Now there are several ones flying. Never say never.
But it would definitely take more money than any pivate organisation can raise, so unless some arabian sheik wants to fly on one, this will not happen.
I have seen 3 of the Concordes over the last 3 years (Toulouse, Filton, Sinsheim) and none of them was even close to airworthy. I am even afraid I will be still around when they have to be scrapped for safety reasons...
It is a shame that such masterpieces of engineering are rotting away when millions are spent to restore old paintings or old temples.
Concorde hat more opponents than friends when it was in operation, and nothing changed to the better since.
The best we can do is making sure that all existing documents (drawings, films, photographs...) are conserved, additionally converted to modern electronic format and made available to those interested, and all existing hardware (airframe, engines, test pieces...) is stored properly indoor in a controlled environment.
But even funding that seems to be only realistic for a large organisation (e.g. an airframe manufacturer who once owned it all and now sells Aircraft in excess of 8G€ every month...) but they wish to see the opposite happening.

Reason: 1st pic WAYYY too bigCan a picture of Concorde ever be too big?

[RealUlli]

But it would definitely take more money than any pivate organisation can raise, so unless some arabian sheik wants to fly on one, this will not happen.

Well, apparently, Club Concorde has raised 120 million pounds for the project. I suspect this will not be enough, but it is a promising start.

See Club Concorde - Concorde For London (http://www.clubconcorde.co.uk/potential-return-to-flight-2015.php)

I wonder if any of our Concorde folks are on that picture... :D

[Phileas Fogg]

To be perfectly honest if it were ever to fly again I wouldn't want it flying over my house!

But correct me if I'm wrong don't all the BA Concorde's remain owned by BA? ... They weren't willing to sell them in 2003 and I doubt that anything has changed their minds.

As for the AF Concordes, well Le Bourget are unwilling to sell, one is in a field near ORY, one is on stilts at CDG, one is on a rooftop in Germany, a couple in TLS, have I missed any?

[DaveReidUK]

As for the AF Concordes, well Le Bourget are unwilling to sell, one is in a field near ORY, one is on stilts at CDG, one is on a rooftop in Germany, a couple in TLS, have I missed any?

Yes, this one:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/04/9f/02/26/smithsonian-national.jpg

[Gargleblaster]

Might be more viable to build an e.g. 1:2 scale replica that was only sub-sonic ?


Which engines could be used ? The big, fat modern high-bypass ones won't do. Perhaps some old DC-9 or B707 ones ?

[gruntie]

One of the AF Concordes was reputed to have been kept in at least taxiable condition in case of necessity for the crash investigation. Is this still so?

[PAXboy]

Do you remember the bunch of blokes who said that there were a dozen Spitfires in crates somewhere in Asia? They made money until it was proved otherwise.

[Stanwell]

No, no, no!
They are there, honest.
People have just been looking in the wrong places.

We need your help - you'll even be provided with a personally autographed Certificate of Recognition if you call in the next 20 minutes.
Visa, MasterCard, PayPal etc.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

One of the AF Concordes was reputed to have been kept in at least taxiable condition in case of necessity for the crash investigation. Is this still so?

There's still an AF Concorde on a bridge at Toulouse - you can see it over the other side of the airport from the main pax terminal.

Not been around it myself, but I'm told that from an engineering perspective it's being used for ground engineering training so probably quite good, but from a cosmetic perspective it's pretty horrible.

G

[con-pilot]

About 50 years ago I gave an organization called 'Bring back the B-36' a hundred dollars to help to pay for restoration a B-36 that was in Texas at the old Greater Southwest airport* on display.

The B-36 never flew and I didn't get my money back.

But I'd bet a beer that the B-36 will fly again before the Concorde.

Hope I'm wrong.


* It was destroyed when DFW was built. However one on the runways is still being used as the main highway leading into DFW from the south.

[Volume]

Which engines could be used ?The EJ200 of the Eurofighter produces 64% of the thrust of the Olympus, so that may be a choice for a 1:2 replica. Maybe somebody would even be happy to sell some, as probably that aircraft will not be produced in the numbers once forecasted, nor will it be in service for 50 years (like some other western fighters).
However, I seriously doubt that a 1:2 replica would cost only 50% of a real Concorde. You still need 99% of the know-how. So it probably still is simpler to bring a real one back to the air.
this one
The one in IAD is most probably the one in the "most airworthy" condition anyway.
There's still an AF Concorde on a bridge at Toulouse - you can see it over the other side of the airport from the main pax terminal.

Not been around it myself, but I'm told that from an engineering perspective it's being used for ground engineering training so probably quite good, but from a cosmetic perspective it's pretty horrible.That poor "cosmetic perspective" goes down to the bone... That airframe sits outside for over 10 years now, and even if the Toulouse weather may be slightly more favourable than the Filton one, it still takes its toll. Seen it about 3 years ago, and it probably does not look better today.

[LilyMars]

I believe their initial plan is to move and refit G-BOAB next to the Thames as a tourist attraction/venue. Most of G-BOAB's interior and cockpit is now in Delta Golf at Brooklands, on which I recently got married. So I imagine they are going to completely rejig the interior.

I suspect the notion of flying Concorde again may be more of a publicity thing than anything else. I'd love to fly on her more than pretty much anyone but I'm not convinced it is feasible at all. I'd love to think it was but in terms of keeping old planes going... I think my money is better off going to Orbis, who have the second DC-10 as their flying eye hospital. For now.

[snooky]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
As for the AF Concordes, well Le Bourget are unwilling to sell, one is in a field near ORY, one is on stilts at CDG, one is on a rooftop in Germany, a couple in TLS, have I missed any?
Yes, this one:





I believe the one shown is at the Udvar-Hazy museum near Washington, along with the prototype 707 and Enola Gay.
https://airandspace.si.edu/visit/udvar-hazy-center/

[DaveReidUK]

I believe the one shown is at the Udvar-Hazy museum near Washington, along with the prototype 707 and Enola Gay.

Yes, it is. I didn't identify it in my post as I assumed most readers would recognise it.

It's part of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum.

[Good Vibs]

It was destroyed when DFW was built. However one on the runways is still being used as the main highway leading into DFW from the south.

I took photos of it in 1968 and I had always thought that the GSW B-36 had been saved.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on it....
AF Ser. No. 52-2827 – Pima Air & Space Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pima_Air_%26_Space_Museum), adjacent to Davis-Monthan Air Force Base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis-Monthan_Air_Force_Base) in Tucson, Arizona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson,_Arizona). This aircraft was the final B-36 built, named "The City of Fort Worth", and loaned to the city of Fort Worth, Texas on 12 February 1959. It sat on the field at the Greater Southwest International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Southwest_International_Airport) until that airfield was closed and the property was redeveloped as a business park adjacent to Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas-Fort_Worth_International_Airport). Some attempts were made to begin restoration at that location through the early 1970s. It then moved to the short-lived Southwest Aero Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southwest_Aero_Museum&action=edit&redlink=1), which was located between the former Carswell Air Force Base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carswell_Air_Force_Base) (now Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Joint_Reserve_Base_Fort_Worth)) and the former General Dynamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics) (now Lockheed Martin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin)) assembly plant, where it was originally built; some restoration took place while at the plant. As Lockheed Martin had no place to display the finished aircraft, and local community efforts in Fort Worth to build a facility to house and maintain the massive aircraft fell short, the NMUSAF retook possession of the aircraft and it was transported to Tucson, Arizona for loan to the Pima Air & Space Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pima_Air_%26_Space_Museum). It was fully restored and reassembled at that museum, just south of Davis-Monthan AFB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis-Monthan_AFB), Arizona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona), and is displayed at that location.[63] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker#cite_note-65)

[DaveReidUK]

It was destroyed when DFW was built. However one on the runways is still being used as the main highway leading into DFW from the south.

I took photos of it in 1968 and I had always thought that the GSW B-36 had been saved.

I read the OP's quote as meaning that the Greater Southwest airport was destroyed when DFW was built, not the B-36.

[Good Vibs]

Ah yes, reading it again I think you are correct. Thanks

I've seen both aircraft types fly.
I must say the Concorde was beautiful.
The Peacemaker looked like it was fighting its own war while in the air!
The sound though was unforgettable.

[fdcg27]

Amazing what can be done when cost isn't an issue.
The B-36 is an enormous machine featuring six big pusher radials and a couple of turbojets just hung off the wing.
Concorde was a remarkable aircraft given that it was a mid 'sixties design.
Gorgeous to look at and capable of carrying a hundred odd Champagne swilling caviar on toast munching pax across the Atlantic at mach 2.
I'd love to see her fly again, but the cost would greatly exceed one hundred million pounds.
That money would be better spent in preserving the remaining examples, most of which are in really bad condition.

[ICT_SLB]

Perhaps this is the nearest we're going to get to keeping her iconic shape in the sky:
https://youtu.be/js8--4zamJQ

[PersonFromPorlock]

The sound though was unforgettable.

Yep. The one time I ever saw a B-36 in flight, I was alerted to its presence by the air starting to tremble. Looked around and there was a B-36 off in the distance, at altitude.