If you're considering EK take the time for a read:

[keepitrealok]

Everybody's experience is different. This is from a friend who decided enough was enough and left over 9 months ago.

It sums up the increasingly common opinion among folks. It is very well what you could get yourself into, and how your life will be under the current rostering and management. Simple things can make that change, but as has been written elsewhere many, many times it is highly doubtful that the changes needed will occur.

It’s now just like a bad dream remembering what it was like to be in a constant state of jet-lag and tiredness. My memory is working much better again, I don’t feel like I am forcing my brain to think (it is running in oil again, not in muck) connections are back to normal and available to use, not constantly looking for things in there. I remember days where I couldn't pick up a book, had the attention span of a gold fish, and could barely have a coherent conversation. I know it was bad, but it is hard to really bring back how it felt on those days. Like you said, my mind is free of all that now.

It did take a long time, and I do feel sometimes that it has left marks. I’m doing a lot of things that were left on the shelf for years, putting pictures in order of the last decade, can sit there for a few hours doing the same thing without either falling asleep or losing interest. I am able to come with ideas to do with the kids, as in, things that will be fun for them, and either teach them something about science or show them something from nature. For the first time in a long time I am playing and laughing frequently with my children. I am bounding out of bed again.

It doesn't all revolve around work anymore, work is something that interrupts life now, not control it. Again, perhaps its just me getting older, or having learned a lesson from my time in the middle east, but I do think being in that state of mind, many times a zombie, sometimes being able to see what I used to be like from before EK, and at the end of holidays actually being myself again, for a short time. The sheer exhaustion, jet lag and undeniable fatigue is not for me. it was slowly grinding me down, I am just not suited for the life we lived in Dubai. Is anyone? Maybe, but I think there a quite a few who kid themselves about that because they have forgotten how it feels to be ‘normal.’

The trap is well and truly set for those joining. The way things are set up, with the Bond, zero interest loans, free housing etc EK are making you theirs for 7-10 years. You are most definitely their slave. They don't care about you, your life, or your family. It is about you flying their jets and that is all. Get back from a trip and just manage to get yourself functioning again before being sent away on another trip. As you well know, many times - most? - you aren't even functioning again before being sent on another trip. They don't care that they are burning you out, their goal is set on 7-10 years and then throwing you away. If you make it that far. I am certain people leave after that many years and suddenly go "what happened? Why did I waste my life there?"

I, my wife, and my family are the happiest we have been in over 5 years. We are functioning again and living life.

Not merely existing.

[SOPS]

And I get hate mail because I say i am enjoying walking the dogs!

[nakbin330]

Jealousy SOPS, pure and unadulterated.

[SOPS]

I must say, I did not realise how tired and jet lagged I was until I stopped flying. I can't believe how much better I feel.

[Neptune Spear]

It only has been a week since I left the asslyum but I feel so much better. I can't imagine how I will feel in a month.
I didn't know how bad I felt until I left. Try it you will like it as well.

[SOPS]

Neptune...just a word of advise. Do not come on here and say how great it is to leave...you will get lots of mail in your in box. And what ever you do, never ever talk about dogs, wine or fires. This will set off a real flood of mail.

However, I took the dogs for a walk this afternoon. Came home, opened a wine and cooked a BBQ. The dogs checked my BBQ cooking progress.

It was getting warmer today, so no need for a fire, but at almost 10.00pm, it's down to 15 degrees, so just might lite one for the hell of it.

[sheiken around]

I'm on my way out too. 4 weeks to go. It can't come soon enough. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Everyone has to do what's best for them, but to all potential new EK joiners, think VERY carefully !!! EK isn't an airline, it's a forced labor camp.

Good luck to all -- I'm outta here !!

[ExDubai]

@Neptune Congrats ;)

And I get hate mail because I say i am enjoying walking the dogs!

Don't think it's hate, I would call it jealousy. Btw what kind of dogs ?

[nukem365]

Once after a few months off flying and spending each night in the same bed the wife said i was actually quite a nice person, hasn't said that after 12 years at ek

[ExDubai]

Once after a few months off flying and spending each night in the same bed the wife said i was actually quite a nice person, hasn't said that after 12 years at ek

It seems I did something wrong, my wife told me after 3 months at home that it's time to get back to the job.... :eek:

[Neptune Spear]

My wife said just last night that it was good to have the man she married back. That made me feel good and as I said before I feel really good now. My personality is back, I'm not fogged headed anymore and I put my suitcase away for days at a time.
Yes the haters are out there filling my inbox. I can't believe when you speak from the heart and speak no lies you get blowback. Just goes to show everyone the closer one gets to the truth the more forceful the push from the other side. I can't understand why they try to defend this airlines' practices. With everything the airline does to its pilots, and now DECs? I am so glad I'm outta there. What a slap in the face to the hard working and long suffering FOs.

[dboy]

Neptune spear,

The difference between you and the haters is that you choose life!! It is afterall just a job, nothing more. If there is a balance between brain and heart, than it is a good decision.

Enjoy with your family!!!!:ok:

[The Range]

"It was like to be in a constant state of jet-lag and tiredness. I don't feel like I am forcing my brain to think. Had the attention span of a gold fish and could barely have a coherent conversation."

Scary. It's really scary to think that he was flying in those conditions. Like many others at EK and other airlines are.

[CaptainProp]

I am fortunate enough to work for an over all good company and I like my job on most days. But when I've had a long duty, or just having one of those days where work is not that great, my wife always tells me what dboy said:

It is afterall just a job, nothing more.

A short sentence but the best thing I've read on these forums in a very long time.

Decisions are sometimes hard to take and you're always asking yourself "am I doing the right thing here?" and to those of you who took the decision to change your situation, good for you.

CP

[keepitrealok]

Striker26.

On the 1st of July 2015 you posted how you are 23, have a BComm (I only have a B.Ec so not as good as you) and are now looking at starting Flight training. Because you have family in Dubai you want to apply to the middle east soon for a bigger pay cheque

It is incredibly amusing how somebody who has no flying experience, let alone airline flying experience, comes here and puts their 'wisdom' on show for all. All you are showing is how wet behind the ears you are. You are half right though - You cant trust half the posts here but not for the reason you claim. It is quite simple - it's anonymous so anybody can post and we have no idea of whether they are a gardener or bona fide airline pilot. What I trust is the pilots sitting next to me commenting in face to face conversation. And that face to face conversation is represented here. The EK flight deck is now the most toxic I have ever seen. Even those who have swilled and force-fed others the koolaid are now complaining about the company and the rostering. Why? Because everybody is exhausted. They are exhausted by a company that has systematically removed any form of control over your life. No leave, or leave when it is useless, back to back to back to back flying that leaves pilots in a permanent zombie state. But you have read all that and denied it is true so I won't continue here. It is pointless.

Don't worry your dream of i guess i want to be as attarctive as possible to a ME Airline as possible!
is closer than you think. You are the perfect candidate - you ignore those who have thousands of hours of experience (I'm in >10,000 hr range) and put your head firmly in the sand.

Quick, hurry up and get your 1500hrs and ATPL done so you can come here and then post with some form of authority on how great it is in EK.

[sluggums]

Agreed. Striker, how many hours airline flying do you have? Oh that's right, NONE. Put a cork in it pal until you're qualified to comment.

Just looked back at his/her previous posts. Breathtaking naivety/ignorance.

[The Outlaw]

Striker is a few things:

At the top of the list is "uninformed w anker" or put in a nicer way "just plain ignorant".:confused:

He is 23 and from Canada. As a Canadian he has been told how smart and more worldly Canadians are than their American brothers etc. and of course being from Toronto he is the "cream of the crop...or was it crap?", in the north we used to refer to this type as "Toronto Wankers".:rolleyes:

So of course he knows everything, how couldn't he? His mommy and daddy probably tell him how special he is everyday since he probably still lives with them in their basement.

Thats the real picture of aviation in Canada.:ugh:

On the other hand he needs an audience to show off his big "pilot watch" and the Ray Ban case on his belt, this is just the place to do it! Just imagine how impressed the cabin crew are going to be :cool: !! Be sure you don't have a reaction to penicillin, you may need it one day here...:eek:

So Striker, as a fellow countryman I'd say to keep following your dream and come...EK is resuming operations to Baghdad and will need more pilots to replace those on the 330 fleet who have just gone nuts, been shot at or have been in a coma trying to recover from lack of rest.

Basra and Kabul are nice places this time of year too and India is best seen during the night hours so you'll fit right in!

[Trader]

I believe Mr Striker is Saudi by birth.

[striker26]

LMAO im actually laughing, you think i'd put my real info online? Nice to see the assumptions. Im not even going to go there.

I think its clear there's a handful of EK pilots (as with any airline) whose wives have had enough of Dubai because they miss home, and the expat has found the perfect environment to complain in. EK is a great airline. I haven't seen one EK pilot revolution or strike - go figure.

"My wife said just last night that it was good to have the man she married back. That made me feel good and as I said before I feel really good now. My personality is back, I'm not fogged headed anymore and I put my suitcase away for days at a time." - Boo-hoo - why'd you choose to fly a wide body?

Come back to me when the airline is shut down for violating international air law, when flights are cancelled because the pilot was a no show, when pilots walk off the job in a revolution, when EK doesnt have one of the best safety records of any airline. And if you say "its coming", havent seen anything for over 30 years and you'll never.

To all those applying to EK - good luck and remember, as with any company, there is always going to be people within who dont like it. Lets hope they get home safely :):ok:

Forgot to mention most who don't like it, ARE STILL WORKING FOR EK lolll - too scared to quit. Quit, end your visa and go home. Dont be a hypocrite and come home after every successful flight and complain.

[ExDubai]

O.K I'll not start and feed the troll

[anson harris]

Mr Striker - when you grow up a bit, you'll look back and cringe at what you've written here. Especially if you achieve your dream of enslavement. There are plenty of guys who have left but choose to say nothing or very little here, because they've let go of the Middle East, and embraced civilization. Good luck.

[olster]

It's difficult to know where to start with Striker 26 -the ignorance / stupidity is breathtaking - I'll leave the detail to others...

[nolimitholdem]

hahah so Striker is saying he's built a false profile...so he can portray himself as a complete loser? Interesting way to spend time, but everyone needs a hobby I guess.

You are the perfect candidate - you ignore those who have thousands of hours of experience (I'm in >10,000 hr range) and put your head firmly in the sand.

I don't think it's sand he's got his head firmly into.

Striker, since you claim your info isn't real, could you at least then change your "fake" identity to something other than Canadian? You're giving your countrymen a bad name.

Face it, it's transparently obvious you're just a kid from TO who'll never make it as an expat or as a pilot. Hopefully winding people up on an internet forum helps to compensate you for that in some way lol.

Even EK with their new rock-bottom standards wouldn't touch you. Ouch.

[anson harris]

Even EK with their new rock-bottom standards wouldn't touch you. Ouch.

I think he sounds like a perfect candidate.

[The Outlaw]

NO...He is just an idiot...whatever his perceived identity is...maybe mommy can help him.

I just found out who he really is, its just not worth the keystokes.

Block him...

This message is hidden because striker26 is on your ignore list.

Saved from ignorance

[6000PIC]

Striker26 is a genius ! Please sprinkle some of your stardust on those of us not wise or worldly enough to compare with your experience. What was it like to be born with wings ? Why are you not in EK management ? Or are you already on the payroll ? What flavour is the kool aid ? The rest of us pilots could really learn a thing or two from you. Or maybe not.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Back on topic, that's one of the best things I've read here in ages keepitreal. I felt exactly the same after I left QR, I didn't realize how much of a zombie I was until a couple weeks after I left.

The subtle high-level mental stuff like your imagination, coming up with new games for the kids, enjoying reading a book, your basic attention span etc, when you're in the system it's all gone under the perpetual cotton wool of fatigue and you don't even realize what you're missing.

We only have 80ish years to spend on this earth, the question is how many of them are you going to spend in that horrible mental state and that horrible working environment?

[harry the cod]

...and that horrible working environment.

Well Luke, I did have to laugh at that. I assume you mean environment as in 'Company Culture', rather than the actual environment you spend time in, right? Air conditioned, short sleeve shirts with food and drinks on demand, controlled rest (needed... grant you that), best views in the World and then 24-48 hours at nice hotels with clean bedding, room service and happy ending massages in BKK. :E

Because if you didn't mean that, if you think you have it bad, I wonder how at least 95% of the World feels about "horrible working environments'.

Personally, in my entire time within aviation, I go to work, do the job professionally (still with pride and enthusiasm) then come home and enjoy as much quality time with friends and family as I can manage. I have very little contact with management, I don't bother them and they return the favour. The day I stop enjoying it or when I can earn the same or more money for less work and stress..... is the day I leave.

You obviously did that with QR. Well done. I hope it's worked out well for you.

Harry

[glofish]

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

.... and Julie took Dick by her hand (in her hand) ....

What are you doing here in the pit, Harry?

Hobollywood needs you.

[Monarch Man]

Harry, what flavour koolaid is your personal favourite? Is it "desert delight?" or perhaps "essence of vaseline?" I might happen to make a guess and say "camel dung". In any case take your head out of your ar$e and have a look around, you might be surprised at what you find, or then again you might just take another sip of your chosen poison.
Potential EK recruits, let me be honest, at the moment EK is a toxic place to work at, its a combination of all the things previously described and a few more besides. We are all apart from Harry, working on our exit.

[The Outlaw]

Muttley,

I would have doubted you up until a few posts ago but since he has openly stated that he's not from Toronto...who really knows?

Makes you wonder why he would quit "the biz" to fly planes...now we know he's insane!

either way...i think you nailed it!

[harry the cod]

MM

"We are all apart from Harry, working on our exit"

Really? you speak for the entire workforce of 3850 pilots do you? Well, if you're personally that desperate to vacate flying, maybe I can help you speed up the job search. Ever thought of becoming a reporter for the Daily Mail? Sensationalism and inaccuracy are their forte.

For yourself, like others on these forums who love to spout the 'koolaid' rhetoric, perhaps a dose of 'reality smelling salts' is needed. Once a day to awake you from the constant bitching, moaning and negativity that pervades these forums and the flight deck like a cancer. Damn right things are not perfect here but let's have some perspective shall we. I wonder how your colleagues at Monarch would be feeling when they read posts such as yours since the take over by GreyBull, the Venture Capital Group;

1) Final salary pension wound up and incorporated into the Government Pension Protection Fund. All pension values reduced by 10% with a max payout capped around £27,000pa. (Senior Captains had been expecting £70k+in retirement). Some were less than a year from retirement, one was only 3 weeks away!

2) Removal of salary scales with only one fixed salary for F/O and one for Captain. Slight increase for Junior guys but big drop for the senior guys.

3) Removal of flight pay.

4) Further reduction in basic salary, splitting year into 4 week sections. This now makes it easy to explain why they only require pilots to work 11/13 of the year due to seasonal fluctuations and as a result, rather than not pay you for 2 'months', we'll merely reduce your basic further by 2/13.

5) Job losses and redundancies across the board, including pilots. Closing of some bases with associated redundancies. No moving costs if offered another base.

6) No more long haul, majority all turnarounds.

So, whilst you bitch and moan and invite me to remove my head from my arse and take a good look around, maybe you should stop and do exactly the same. Why not reflect what your former colleagues have had to endure, facing an unsure future, degraded terms and conditions as well as huge remuneration penalties. This is not some crappy fly by night outfit, it's the oldest surviving charter airline in the UK that retains it's original name. Its reputation for service, safety and training is highly regarded within the industry and has not suffered a single hull loss in over 45 years of operations. This Airline is not alone in fighting to stay alive. Just ask those in MAL how financially secure they currently feel.

And please, before Algonquin Crusader joins the fray, perhaps a quick history lesson in how Delta shafted it's pilots years ago when it stole their pensions to pay for a nice re branding of uniform and livery. That was after it emerged from that wonderful safety net called Chapter 11. Strangely, the CEO and other senior management still walked away with such insane payouts, it would make a banker blush! Pilots, as history has proved, have short memories. So, still feel like moaning? Fill you boots pal but don't expect any sympathy from me. Oh, and the best bit I've saved till last. Monarch's previous owners are in the World's top richest 500. They fiddled the books, blackmailed the UK government and then walked away from a £500+ million pension liability.

That must be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow each time your mates fly over Lake Geneva and look down at the owners' massive homes on the Lake and the mega yacht(s) moored up nearby. Maybe you should apply for a job on their yacht. I hear the weather's great this time of year!

Harry

[Alloy]

Harry, I've spent many years in Monarch, yes the wheels fell off there last year, yes like many others, I looked at DEC at EK but as stated by so many others, I decided I did not want to touch it with a barge pole. I very much appreciate my quality of life and that is something that is clearly no longer evident at all at EK.

[Monarch Man]

Good grief Harry, the man doth protest! It's wonderful to have highlighted the plight of many whose number I was one of a good few years ago, but as Alloy said, it's as much about quality of life as it is about remuneration.
Oh and whilst we are using the word perspective I can reveal that what I use for perspective seems to be very similar to a great many with whom I fly with, that perspective is also evident amongst many many of our hard working colleagues beyond the flightdeck door and it is telling that this very perspective you speak of is, little by little finding its way into every aspect of the business. The perspective that you are alluding too also appears to be rubbing off on our customers who seem to be able to discern that the glossy images and clever marketing tactics aren't as good these days at making up for the effects of the perspective that describe so eloquently.
Perspective you see is a matter of perspective in the truest sense, give yourself a slap Harry and think about the perspective I speak of, or then again, take another sip of that favoured drink of yours.

[in freedom]

Harry

I understand that you are responding to a direct tease. But what kind of a point are you trying to make? That EK isn't bad because there are other bad places???

I am happy that the place works for you. It really didn't for me. Nor was it anything like what they promised in their presentations of rosters, leave etc. I believe that many guys find themselves in a position that they never signed up for.

Truth is that it is incredibly hard to get out of it. Even if there are other options you still need time off to get it all done. I had to find out the hard way that none of your rights as an employee are enforceable in any way. Not even from the safe haven of Europe after running away. Just a quick thought: How can 3,850 pilots comply with the obviously illegal check-in timeline every day? All of you breaking the law on a daily basis by complying and being just as guilty if anything ever happened. That shows you the absurdity of their grip on you all. In any civilized country this nonsense would stop after a single phone call to the authorities. And it would only take a single pilot to report it.

On the other hand any obligation that you might have in Dubai is enforced against you by criminal law. Even an unjustified and false telephone bill that you didn't pay will make you a criminal.

It is this upside down of the world that we are trying to warn the newjoiners about. Make sure you understand the point that if they change the rules over night you will be forced to comply with those new rules. None of the pilots knew about today's rosters and leave policies. Nobody was asked. Everybody has to comply.

The simple management answer: "if you don't like it leave it" doesn't specify what IT is. Because IT chnages on a monthly basis without any checks and balances.

And if they change IT to something that makes you leave who is going to cover the associated cost? The employee covers the bond, loss of pension fund, unemployment etc. You are being penalized when clearly the employer is at fault. This is such an insane concept that people who haven't fallen into the trap yet cannot understand it.

Good night from Europe

[harry the cod]

in freedom

You bring some valid points in your post. I don't disagree with anything you have said.

One of those points you mention is report times. Like you, it's a bug bear of mine. At least it was. Whilst we may be reporting ahead of official time, for the purpose of briefing the cabin crew, I ask myself this. Would I prefer to work for an employer that gave me the extra 20 minutes and I drove myself into work, parked and bused/walked in or can I accept that I get driven in a bit earlier and brief the crew when I'm ready. For those that feel an early start may violate the previous day off, ask the FDM for separate transport. There are people out there with the balls to do so, believe me and it has never been questioned when I've requested it. Never. I guess it comes down to whether you accept it and make it work for you or whether you add it to your Company hate list that they're screwing you with another policy loaded in their favour.

When people spend years doing something they hate, when they have the opportunity and financial freedom to do something else, you have to ask yourself why? Grinding out a living, desperately unhappy with morose negativity pervading every part of your life including family and friends. You have a choice in life. Accept your circumstances or try to change them. I choose to accept the report time. For those that don't, they have a choice. Complain to management through ASR's, CSR's and Confidential Reports, or, accept it. Or, as MM and many others do, vent on PPRuNe and hope that others will be warned. I don't have a problem with that, numerous posts are testament to my own dissatisfaction with various policies and reductions in T&C's during record profit years. I too get sick and tired of the PR machine in full swing with millions invested in screens with ever increasing inches and starry lights in cavernous ceilings whilst training and investment in what's really important, the people, takes second place. And that's just my point. We accept it for what it is or decide we will be happier elsewhere.

So, if it genuinely is quality of life that one seeks and not remuneration, actively look for an exit strategy. I agree that it can't be achieved overnight but when the complaints are still rolling in from the same people 3 years later, I have little patience. Nobody forces us to stay here, right? When you get this pissed off, all you bring to the job is negativity. I fly with so many F/O's who spend more time complaining to me about complaining Captains than they do complaining about the Company! Whilst it may say something about the Company, it also says much about the person.

Life is too short.

Harry

[new tomcat]

Harry we as pilots voted to get rid of our pensions at Delta. At the time I was against it but as you can see from our quartly profits it was the right thing to do long term.
We lost some work rules but they are still the envy of the industry and our hourly rates are industry leading. No one at Delta voluntarily flies anywhere near 90 hours a month but with credit times some pilots get paid 90 hours.
To the best of my knowledge no one in the last 5 years has left Delta Airlines which the same can't be said for Emirates. We even took one pilot back who went to EK and wanted to come back to Delta.
I think you should compare other flag air carriers to each other.

[Mango]

If there was a 'like' button I would push it in agreement for Harry.

New Tomcat, to say that nobody has left Delta in the last 5 years is not really comparing apples with apples. We are mainly expats living abroad. The hard part is living that kind of life. If you compare Cathay Pacific to Emirates to Qatar to all other expat driven airlines you will probably find a higher turnover of expat pilots than say Delta, British airways, Qantas and so on.

The job of actually flying an aircraft at EK is enjoyable, in my opinion. The part about living in the Middle East is a challenge but that's part of living away from your country of origin and for some being away from their country of origin is a blessing. Being an expat is something I've done most of my life so this works for me and probably many others that don't contribute to this forum.

[BYMONEK]

new tomcat

I don't know every single detail regarding what was or wasn't agreed about you pensions but I do know enough to see what impact those decisions have had on a colleague of mine here in EK. He left Delta around 9 years ago and joined as a DEC. He's a true gentleman and a very competent pilot with over 20,000 hours under his increasing in girth belt. His view on the Delta pensions story should be a wake up call for everyone in this industry. It's left him very bitter about the process and the then incumbent management and certainly financially worse off. He described it as daylight robbery.

From a personal 'perspective' as Monarch Man refers to, I would have to agree with my US friend, describing your view as somewhat of a Stockholm Syndrome. How can you vote to get rid of a pension? You state that you were appossed to it. No **** Sherlock as I'd imagine were the other 99.9% of your mates. Your Union gave you a loaded gun from Delta and said "lose your pension or lose your jobs". Right? But a few years down the road the airline has shiny new liveries and uniforms, courtesy of your pension. Talk about being screwed. No wonder there's no vaseline in Dubai, you guys used it all up. Your referral to class leading pay and conditions, which admittedly is good, is now used as justification for the fact you guys took it royally up the rear and are probably too embarrassed to admit it. You rolled over and the CEO laughed all the way to his Hampton mansion. Sounds kind of familiar to the Monarch one and many other similar stories that plague this industry.

I just hope for your sake that this envious flying rate your refer to and the bonus they give you offsets the loss you made on those pensions.

As Harry said, pilots have short memories.

[Praise Jebus]

Mango you are correct to point out the uniqueness of an expat airline regards turn over. There was a time however when EKs greatest recruitment line was that 'nobody ever leaves'.....

[littlejet]

Now the wording is slightly different

Nobody has any leave!

:mad:

[new tomcat]

Getting rid of our pensions was a pilot voted on decision. Bymonek says 99% wouldn't have voted for that but 65% of the pilots did exactly that, they voted to get rid of our pensions.
The pilot pension fund went to the PBGC which is the government liability fund, not Delta management. When you say Delta management walk away with mansions in the Hamptons you really don't know what you are talking about.
Yes we as Delta pilots had it good before the pay cuts but our labor costs were well over 40% and that is just not sustainable. Our labor costs are down around 35-36% now and the airline is really thriving. What's Emirates labor costs, 15%?
The new 401k program and bonus system while very generous does not make up for the pension lost but the company is better off and so are we. The pilots that were close to retirement got an equity distribution that helped aleve their pain. It doesn't come close to losing over $2 million in A and B fund distributions though.
When you say we took it up the ass that might be true in a micro sense but the only thing we don't have now is our pensions. We have very good pay, excellent work rules and an enjoyable work environment. I don't know what more we could ask for except our defined benefit package which is going the way of the dodo bird. Emirates does not have a pension plan either. Your Provident fund pays 12% our 401K pays 16%.
Everything that happened to us was voted on in diolouge and talks between us and the company which the same can not be said for you guys. If we got screwed I don't know where we are lacking when it comes to a current pilot contract. We just turned down a TA that would have paid our wide body captains well over $300,000 a year to work 10 days a month. Plus we have work rules.
Delta ain't perfect but it isn't Emirates either.

[SOPS]

And Tomcat, that is where Harry looses the argument. $ 300000 a year, work 10 days a month, with work rules.

Fact, end, over.

[misd-agin]

AA has a couple of new hires who are former EK 777 CA's . They start at the bottom at around $65K.

Everyone makes decisions that are hopefully in their best long term interest. For them EK 777 CA was not the answer.

[harry the cod]

SOPS

Not sure why you're dragging my name into that last post, shouldn't you be directing that at another poster.

You are right though, I do not earn $300k. Monthly net figures are around 19K with accommodation allowance. Include schooling allowance and that rises to $22k. Senior trainers will be taking almost $30k a month. I think that easily compares with Delta's pay scale, don't you. What you also fail to realise is that these figures are far more achievable to a larger number of pilots in a far quicker time frame than Delta pilots. You're probably quoting very senior guys with 20-25 years plus, and that's before tax is taken into account. I'm not even close to 15 years.

We may be working hard but the salary, as I've stated numerous times before and will continue to state, is actually pretty good. The T&C's comparison between the two airlines, however, is a different story altogether. That's the rub, not the money. Quality of life is the number one priority and in the current situation, it does not appear to be getting any better soon hence so many people looking to leave.....and doing so.

And for the record Tomcat, nice post. Only correction to make is that after 10 years here, EK contributes 15% of salary to our Provident Fund.

Harry

[v1r8]

Never mind. Ad Nauseous we keep having the same conversations. Repeating all the same stuff.

[new tomcat]

If it is so good Harry why are so pilots leaving Emirates and none joining?
Your DEC program is attracting no one that is a widebody captain which suggests the current widebody pilots are better off where they are currently flying.
It is good for you. Look at the research and decide what 90 plus hard time hours does to your health. You might be making good money for you but what does that get you when you are dead at 55 or have a heart attack before 50.
The stress of living in the Middle East, flying over 900 hours a year, and putting up with what your company does to you has to contribute to the decaying health of the Emirates pilot.

[Saltaire]

Exhausted pilots tell Cathay Pacific their growing workloads are a threat to flight safety | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1859802/exhausted-pilots-tell-cathay-pacific-their-growing-workloads-are)

They have tighter restrictions than EK. := :ugh:

This should be forwarded to EK management.

[glofish]

Harry

The T&C's comparison between the two airlines, however, is a different story altogether.

True. If you add up housing and schooling allowances to compare UAE to USA salaries, then be fair and compare what you can get in the respective environement with the said. It then easily evens out the incumbent taxes.

This is for all the dreamers out there believing the “no tax” fairy tale in the pit.

That's the rub, not the money. Quality of life is the number one priority and in the current situation


In the end you’re right, it comes down to QOL and if you can cope with it in the pit, good for you.

Most of us though have a problem with the “punish first, then assess later” brain wiring of the management around here (it exempts themselves and locals, naturally).

This is particularly serious when you want to leave. You are regarded as potential criminal until you have cleared each and every bs step imposed by employer, banks, administration, telecom company and so forth. Any slip or unintended omission will either block you here, impound all your belongings or cost you in an unaccountaed whimp the huge deposit asked throughout that oh so tolerant and civilised society (not).

I can somehow understand the attraction of what is whispered by EK, we all got tied up by it. What eludes me is that back then when we came along, there was very little bad news about EK, they seemed quite civilised (the change is almost unbelievable!!), but today there is an abundance of warnings and sad stories easily verifiable about the cr@p happening around here.

So why are there still guys applying?

First I do understand that there are similarly bad carreers out there and a change to the presumed better always has its moths flying into the candlelight.
But with so many warning signs that it is not better? Are they as dumb as moths?
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required

[fliion]

glofish,

WE, must also share the blame.

How many ASR's on ORD & IAD a month? to name a couple

You would think 30.

No balls - simple.

f.

[Saltaire]

Very true. Even the latest Muse encourages reports. Why the hesitation? IAD, BOS, PEK, etc many examples. Do it. Change will not happen otherwise.

[Deep and fast]

Pilots with no balls has always been the big problem in airlines, that's why management can get away with the :mad: they do.

Balpa is a eunuch like association outside of BA as well.

Ps I'm not talking female pilots not having gonads )

[expat400]

"But with so many warning signs that it is not better? Are they as dumb as moths?
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required"

I think you are overestimating the number of pprune readers. I know two guys that have applied and none of them ever reads pprune. They don't even have a FB account...

[Nikita81]

I know two guys that have applied and none of them ever reads PPRuNe.

No worries, they will start to read it once they arrive to the sand pit. :}

[Shisha2015]

We do read but the options are limited in the gulf area

[Touch'n'oops]

Personally I have few issues flying for EK. Yes, it can be tiring flying all hours of the clock. I've even learnt to meditate and this has gone a long way to help me beat the fatigue.

I have worked for some real doozies before EK. So everything is relative and I will always remember what life was like flying for other airlines, not for me.

EK is NOT for everyone, a friend left within a few months to go back to his previous airline. EK actually said don't worry about the bond and let him go.

As for the training, I think it is well above the standard than what I have had in the past. I enjoy a challenging sim and walk away with a lot of food for thought.

The whole industry has been on the slide for a long time, it's going to be interesting to see what the pilot shortage does to this trend.

Everyone wants different things and to live in different ways. Those who are unhappy are not wrong and are entitled to those feelings. I just ask that you accept that I see more good than bad.

All the best gents!

[donpizmeov]

Touch,

Did you join on the 380 as a FO? I would suggest then you have not seen a bad roster. Those that complain have.

[rdr]

It's good to get back to some normalacy after a spelling the desert.
Walk the dog, rape the wife, beat the kids.......
But don't forget to laugh.

[allrounder99]

"It was like to be in a constant state of jet-lag and tiredness. I don't feel like I am forcing my brain to think. Had the attention span of a gold fish and could barely have a coherent conversation."


After reading this as an Air Traffic Controller in this country, (and I want to say this without any sarcasm) It finally makes sense the utter garbage (please don't take offence, since that's what it often is) we get from the cockpits over the radio.

It probably is just that, that you are running on fumes. Not funny at all, and for a second, I felt sympathy. (ok that was sarcasm)

I will from this moment, try to consider this next time I roll my eyes over a read back that didn't even remotely resemble what I gave as a clearance.

Fly safe guys and gals. This post makes sense.

[ruserious]

allrounder99 you are not wrong. I often arrive back in Dubai in the early morning and am never ceased to be amazed how many pilots I hear tripping over their tongues trying to read back simple clearances or asking for requests. I then open my mouth and add to the lack of quality RT, it's really frustrating.

Not a big surprise when you think of it. The University of South Australia found that cognitive information processing ability after 18 hours of being awake, was the same as someone at the legal limit for blood alcohol in most Euro countries, while being awake for 24 hours put their processing ability at nearly double the legal limit.

Throw in hypoxia and the dehydrated state that is fundamental to sitting in a pressurized airliner, add a dash of jet lag and you end up with a very reduced mental capacity.

[anson harris]

I have found myself literally barely able to speak during an approach to Dubai after a night turn to somewhere delightful in the Middle East. One of the few occasions that I submitted a fatigue report (no come back, btw).

[Eagle Dude]

’m going for my second interview for EK in Dubai, and I’ll probably have to make a decision. I tried to post, but Pprune won’t publish it, please help.

-My Info:
- 29 years old, no wife, no kids
- American Eagle Employed 5 years (Upgrade less than 2)
- Hold a line, Avg 13 days off, 80+ hours, 40K/year
- Live in base, no commute
- AA flow sometime within next 10 years (so they say)

-My plan:
- Fly for EK 3-5 years, get life/career experience, make good money, see the world, live somewhere exotic. Come back to U.S. fly for a major after that.

- My concerns:
- Quality of life, crew treatment, time off, ability to get back to the states.

- I have heard lots of good about EK, but lately, looking at the forums, quite a lot of bad things. I’m not willing to kill myself for a type or money. I just need someone who has been there a while to give it to me straight. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

[Neptune Spear]

Eagle stay in the US and get hired by the majors. What are you waiting for? The good airlines are hiring nearly 100 pilots a month for the foreseeable future. You wait 5 years and you are 6000 numbers junior. All for what?
The money is not good at EK and better at widebody positions in the USA. It might take you 3-4 years to get a widebody but your health will be so much better if you stay in the states. Plus you will get treated better.
Even on reserve at the US majors you get 13 days off a month. Think about it! You are better in the states.

[glofish]

- My concerns:
- Quality of life, crew treatment, time off, ability to get back to the states.

Bingo, that's why people are sick of the place and leave ...

I’m not willing to kill myself for a type or money

... so look after yourself and stay where you are.

Seriously and honestly.

[Kapitanleutnant]

EagleDude..

Since you seem rather naive… I'm sending you a PM to tell you a few things about EK.
LOL… and just found out I can't since you don't have enough posts yet to do PM's.

Just stay away from EK. Go to the airline in Abu Dhabi or Qatar if you must come to the ME.

Kap

[OnceBitten]

Exhaust all avenues with the Majors first, your in your prime to make the grade and get on a seniority list.

The others will always be there as an option. Good luck. :ok:

[ironbutt57]

I don't work at EK, but been over here 24+ years.. as a general statement....stay at home Eagle Dude.....I don't regret coming over, but don't recommend it either..

[tom330]

If you're on the A330 you'll get used to the Indian turnarounds and the rosters aren't so bad as I've heard from the 7 drivers. Shorts flights are great on A330 like BAH, MCT, IKA, DOH and I get the rest needed at home, chill out on the weekends and so far, Dubai isn't so bad as they say it is. Just.. a strict management.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Tom...

10 posts, eh? Not a real wealth of reality of flying the 330 at EK I'm guessing. You'll soon find out... 8 days off for months in a row, 2 layovers on 6 months (according to one 330 captain I rode in transport with recently).

I give you 6 months or less... And a few more Posts until you realize what you've gotten into on the 330 at EK..

Kap

[BANANASBANANAS]

Eagle

Invest in your future by staying where you are. You will save very little at EK even as a single FO. After 5 years you will still be an FO and looking to go back to USA on lower seniority than you have now.
Stay where you are and be patient. It will be worth it.

[harry the cod]

If your plan is to eventually work for one of the big carriers in the US, why not do it now? Coming here will certainly increase your bank balance as a single guy but if you were to do 5 years in 'exotic' Dubai, you'll be returning to the States and starting at the bottom. You'll be 34 then. That's 5 wasted years in my opinion and long term, you'd be financially worse off. As for lifestyle, please read the thread 'INSANITY' started by Pixy. He hits the nail firmly on the head regarding fatigue issues and days off. The 330 is not a nice fleet to be on and you have no guarantee of what you'll get when you join. The Company may well promise you a B777 or 380 but it can, and has, changed on the day you arrive after signing on the dotted line.

I would be the first to advocate you joining EK if I thought it would be in your best interest but in your case, I can't.

Harry

[Eagle Dude]

@ Neptune Spear

Its not just that easy to "get a job at the Majors" ESPECIALLY if you don't have captain time, military, friend or family, etc.

[misd-agin]

In five years at EK you'll STILL be an FO. Using your timeline in five years at AE you'll have three years of CA time.

If upgrade is the path to getting hire WTF would you leave now???

[Kapitanleutnant]

Eagle... Have you even researched the US Airlines.. And regional in particular??? Do your homework!!!!

Almost all the regional have a flow thru to the majors and upgrade time for almost any crj is a year or two tops!

At EK, you will NOT have the days off in a row to go interview in the US unless you're on vacation.

Seriously... If you come here and get an interview back in the states for example, you'll have that 5 year 50K bond hanging over your head. You're stuck!!!!!!

Think!!!

K

[ExDubai]

Dude, your plan sounds great but there is an issue. Because of the bond you have to stay 5 years with EK. The pay isn't that bad, but forget that you'll save a lot of money. A single EK Pilot will find enough amusement ;)

So you'll go back to the US after 5 years as a FO with plenty of WB time which doesn't help you because the system in the US is based on seniority. You'll find yourself at the end of the seniority list with a regional carrier. Ask yourself if those 5 years with EK will be a career booster.

[GoreTex]

who cares, let this fool come, he can ruin his own life if the thinks he knows better

[ExDubai]

who cares, let this fool come, he can ruin his own life if the thinks he knows better
Come on, he has concerns and asked for advice. So why not explain him how the picture looks like from our point of view.

Edit: @GoreTex What would have been your advice if he would come instead of the US from Brazil?

[Eagle Dude]

Thank you ExDubai for being constructive. However, I have to correct you. Regional to major is NOT based on seinority, therefore a pilot junior to me can/will get a job at a major if they have the time and experience.

Also, I can break the bond and pay some money, NBD, I don't spend money freely and I would be able to save quite a bit over 2 years or so.

That being said, I don't want to be labeled a "traitor" by the recruitment guys back in the states.

[atpcliff]

US guys flying in the ME ARE being hired by the majors, and Atlas.

I recommend checking out Etihad, based in Abu Dhabi, and Qatar, based in Doha, Qatar. I would also suggest applying for the ANA (Japanese) 767 jobs, if you are interested in flying in that area.

Namaste...

[pudoc]

A few of you are talking about 5 year bonds but their website states 3 years??

[SOPS]

Pudoc, it says on the web site under career path, 5 years. People on here generally know what they are talking about.


http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/english/careers_overview/pilot_jobs/pilot_faq.aspx

[Dropp the Pilot]

Emirates does not have a bond.

I may have said this before.

[Outatowner]

Dropp you should tell that to HR because they offer contracts with specific reference to a bond. Mine has it in black and white. I think your idea of the definition of a bond is different to that of the other 3800 pilots in the company, plus all of HR.

[pudoc]

SOPS, it states here otherwise.

FAQ's | Flight Deck Crew | Explore Our Careers | Emirates Group Careers Centre (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/english/Careers_Overview/flight_crew/faqs/career_path.aspx)

Hence my confusion.

[SOPS]

Others maybe more up to date, but as far as I know it's 5 years.

Welcome to smoke and mirrors.

[PGA]

Pilots (http://www.ekpilot.com), go to the FAQ's and select "career path and rostering", there is a question there about the training bond. It states 5 years and 42K.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Seems to be conflict of information as I see both references… one pertaining to a 3 year $36K bond and the other link clearly stating 5 year $42K bond.

Imagine that…. two documents saying completely different things! How can that be??? :-)

Which do you think EK would probably do?? (Rhetorical question…)

K

[delorean79]

I have a 5 year bond because I asked for it. They offered me 3 but I told them no way. I was kinda feeling half f*cked. :ugh:

[Neptune Spear]

Eagle have you heard of th flo through to AA? You guys don't even have to interview now, you are guaranteed a slot so cut the crap about not knowing anyone or being in the military.
I don't know what AA is thinking in that regard, how can they not interview or want to know a little bit about who is going to fly their airplanes but this is their decision not mine.
In a year or two you will be making more than $100,000 at AA so stay in the US and enjoy the US Majors.

[a-ricky-town]

Hi guys,

Having read countless posts about how busy the flying schedule is and how demoralising it has become working for EK I still have a question.

Is there any financial gain in joining as an F/O now? This is actually my only motivation.

Yes, it is cool flying big jets but that soon wears off, yeah it is nice to fly all over the world visiting new places (only if you're in the right fleet and manage to grab layovers instead of turnaround flights) but after a while that excitement will start to fade out. Living in Dubai could be interesting for some time as well but ultimately that is not my thing either.

My situation right now is that I have a permanent contract flying in France for the "orange clockwork" (no pun nor offence intended) and honestly, I don't see myself retiring as a pilot, either here or in EK. This job is not what I thought it was going to be so my plan is to work, save some money and in the future move to another position either within this industry or somewhere else.

The EK thing looked like an option from the perspective of trying long haul before quitting flying for good but also because it would give me the chance to accumulate some savings. I don't lead an expensive nor hedonist way of life so the tax free salary seemed the perfect match for me.

Please don't burn me for asking this question. I may have skipped the answer as there are too many threads and posts talking about EK in which case I would apologyse and kindly ask you to direct me to them.

Public or private message me. I am genuinely interested in knowing if a "normal" average monthly wage of an F/O is better in EK or here with my current orange employer.

On another note, this campaign is looking pilots for any specific fleet? I understand they would allocate candidates according to their needs but I would like to know which is the most likely entry fleet.

Thanks in advance and happy flying!

FCC

[Ex-Brazilian]

Hi people,

I'm considering EK right now but I have a few doubts... one of them regarding the annual leave...

So, it looks like they can give you whatever they want? Like this month they give 3 days of "vacations" and the next more 5... like this? I thought it must be in multiple of 7, like at least 7 consecutive days, or 14, or 21, or 28... and I also read that they are not achieving the promoted 42 days of annual leave, is that true?

And about the schedule, so you can't ask more than 4 consecutive days off? Is it possible to ask for the last 4 days of a month and the 4 first days of the next month so you got 8 consecutive days?


Thank you for answering... :ok:

[aussiefarmer]

Ex-brazilian,

It is fair to say that the big majority of pilots are owed leave. Some 5 days, some several weeks, some even more than 1 month that have been accumulated... this is what people I fly with tell me.

I currently do not know anyone who has got his 42 days contractual leave awarded this year. There might be someone but I just don't know that person.

Whether you get 7 or multiples... I never heard of that. You can bid I think a minimum of 5. However the company usually "assigns" or "forces" leave on people which sometimes is as short as 4 days and it is just inserted in your roster without you having any say on it (even if you requested a million different combinations of leave before that were all rejected).

If your plan is to go to Brazil (I'm assuming you're from there) I can tell you you might be able to join 2 or max 3 periods of leave to go there per year. As things stand today. Hope it was useful.

Regarding days off, it is unlikely that you will get more than 5 in a row. Usually you will get 3-5 in a row once a month depending on your fleet. And no, you can't bid for 5 at the end and 5 at the beginning. I mean you can, but 100% you will not get it.