Crash in Gordon VIC?

[Nose_Wheel]

Just saw on a scanner there was a fatality between Gordon and Millbrook VIC today?

[no one]

Yes, saw on ch7 VH-ZEW. Sad news.

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

What an absolute tragedy! :( Clocked up some hours on VH-ZEW. R.I.P to the pilot.

[Nose_Wheel]

Pilot killed as light plane crashes into paddock near Ballarat, police say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-08/crews-responding-to-reports-of-plane-crash-near-ballarat/6759228)

[FoolCorsePich]

Can't say it looks like a forced landing attempt.

[logansi]

scheduled flight plane VH-ZEW ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHZEW)

[Squawk7700]

Can't say it looks like a forced landing attempt.

Being a 2011 model hopefully G1000 equipped we may be able to find out much sooner than normal as to what happened. What a shocker of a mess in the photo :-(

[Ultralights]

lets hope so, but i have a few initial thoughts on what happened judging by the damage.

[mickjoebill]

Apparently no ABC TV news crews on scene so they are airing pictures of the recent Yak crash:ugh:


Mickjoebill

[The name is Porter]

I have NEVER seen wreckage like that in any accident. Thoughts are with all affected.

[Mick.B]

Very ordinary conditions here at YBLT today. Why the hell would anybody approve a first Solo Nav to an area with terrain like that in these Met conditions. CASA will love it. :=

[The name is Porter]

I can tell you there were several 'incidents' today, coulda been worse.....

[FoolCorsePich]

If who ever approved this flight is reading then all I can say is Chin up, do not feel guilty, it was definitely not your fault. If anything good on you for approving it. Students are wrapped up in too much cotton wool these days.

[Cuban Eight]

If who ever approved this flight is reading then all I can say is Chin up, do not feel guilty, it was definitely not your fault.

Hear hear. My thoughts are with that instructor too. It'll be a tough time no doubt but sometimes circumstances will defeat all our best efforts. Keep on going, learning and teaching with your chin up.

[Desert Flower]

I have NEVER seen wreckage like that in any accident.


Doesn't even look like a 172. :sad:

DF.

[Victor India]

Was this the same aircraft I heard on 124.1/120.75 MHz around 0330Z (Cooma area)?

If so well done to the pilot of the assisting aircraft, he seemed to be giving good advice to someone seemingly lost inadvertent IMC. The incident pilot seemed to be responding and understanding the advice, (e.g. wings level, full power, a few degrees up nose etc). It had me wondering how much basic IF is taught prior to solo VFR nav these days (no disrespect intended to any party involved).

I can't help feeling we could have offered to render assistance... we had the fuel and hopefully some useful advice to offer...many regretful thoughts this evening.

Sincerest condolences to all involved.

VI

[PLovett]

Being a 2011 model hopefully G1000 equipped we may be able to find out much sooner than normal as to what happened. What a shocker of a mess in the photo :-(
8th Sep 2015 20:14

Actually, probably not. The ATSB does not have the ability to read the GPS chip and they send them to the USA where they are low on the priority scale for action. Or so I'm told.

[Jman1984]

From the TAF that I saw at Ballarat today I can understand that an instructor sent a student there solo. Looks like it was to clear up by 2:30 and seemed like it was ok conditions for a nav flight. I really feel for everyone involved and hope you can all remain strong and work through this difficult time. Unfortunately we all accept a certain level of risk when we fly and we must all be aware of this as it is our personal responsibility. Very sad.

[Jerr]

Our sympathies to everyone involved. It is always upsetting whenever this happens...

Having done the YMPC to YBLT many times, the weather can quickly change as showers come in. The ground rises heading towards YBLT and it rises quickly just past Bacchus Marsh. More than once I have had to upgrade to IFR. Although there is a comment on the Channel 9 link, from someone at the Ballarat Aeroclub that the ceiling was 1500'AGL at the time of the accident.

Re the Garmin 1000- all the flight data is recorded on an SD card, you can up load this on various websites and get very detailed data. This SD card goes in the upper slot on the MFD. If there was no SD card then I am not sure if any data gets recorded.

Sad day indeed.

JERR

[Track Shortener]

Was this the same aircraft I heard on 124.1/120.75 MHz around 0330Z (Cooma area)?


Probably not. I believe ATC assisted with three unrelated VFR-in-IMC or VFR-on-top-of-cloud incidents in various parts of Victoria yesterday. THis crash is not included in those.

[Flying Meat Cleaver]

Very sad news indeed. Condolences to the family and friends of the Pilot killed near Ballarat.

VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir :ok:! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.

FMC.

[andrewr]

Although there is a comment on the Channel 9 link, from someone at the Ballarat Aeroclub that the ceiling was 1500'AGL at the time of the accident.

If you look at the WAC you can see that you are crossing the tip of the great divide in this area. The area is about 500' higher than Ballarat, this hill might be 800' higher.

I have driven the route often in bad weather and it is very common that the weather at Gordon is worse than Ballarat, with low cloud and drizzle. There can be significant differences in weather from one side of the range to the other, depending on the wind direction.

Ballarat TAF doesn't mean much away from the airfield, you need to look at the Area forecast.

[Sunfish]

Why send someone into what can be tiger country on a first solo nav, especially from Point Cook??

There is the highway to follow, but to the East is the Lerderderg Gorge area so bugging out that way is most unwise, then to the West of the highway there is the high ground around Gordon. Both sides rough country and forest.

Why not send a solo nav in what is Victorian spring weather to Colac or suchlike? No high ground, plenty of paddock space and you can see the weather coming.

[FoolCorsePich]

Wow, stop with the weather/route/sign-out bashing.

If you're going to bash the sign out, bash it on its own. Maybe she shouldn't have been signed out to fly solo in the first place regardless of the weather? I'm not implying it was her own aptitude that caused it, god no, now that would just be politically incorrect right? Maybe RMIT being the box ticking organization that it is failed to drum into the student some basic principles of flight, and failing that, what VMC is, how turning around actually is an option or what to do in the even of inadvertent cloud entry. Just look at that ball of wreckage ffs. That does not simply happen because of a sign out. The poor sheila had greater issues with her training that unfortunately for her and her family, became apparent a bit too late.

'Oh but FCP, dont speculate like that, its far too early for that kind of stuff?!!?'

Yeah righto, then I suppose a wing detatched. Happens all the time.

On a final note, lets be honest, its pretty fun bashing sausage factories isnt it? I mean, its not like anything good has ever come out of them anyway.

[The name is Porter]

My first solo nav was BK KAT BTH (full stop landing) MIG BK. Check that out on google earth Sunny. Where do you reckon they should have sent her? Colac? Right. I had 100% confidence that my instructor would NOT have sent me if I wasn't ready, G'day Marcus ;) or Mucus, as he was known.

[Homesick-Angel]

FCP taking poor timing , disrespect and distasteful commentary to new levels.

Congratulations.

[PA39]

It has gone in out of control to sustain such terrible damage. Poor little bugger. :(

[Squawk7700]

Just heard that the pilot was female. Makes it even worse as there are so few girls flying these days. Very upsetting for all involved.

[The name is Porter]

Doesn't make it worse, a life is a life.

[FoolCorsePich]

Sq7700 taking sexism to new levels.

Congratulations. :D

[Squawk7700]

Sq7700 taking sexism to new levels.

Congratulations. :D

Don't be ridiculous, that is the dumbest thing I've heard.

[IFEZ]

Has it been established for certain that this was in fact her 1st solo nav..? Without knowing specifics such as :-
- Was it her 1st solo nav..?
- Her demonstrated capabilities..?
- The weather at the time..?
We probably shouldn't be speculating or passing judgement. Only thing I would say though, IF it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. If it wasn't 1st solo nav, then depending on how far along in her training she was, with all things considered and ok'd then fair enough.


In any event, this is a tragic loss of a young life. Sincerest condolences to the family and all concerned.

[Sunfish]

What was the RAAF expression for needless training risk? "Practicing bleeding"? Where was the "get out of jail" option for her?

[Capt Fathom]

It's just pure bad luck that the pilot found themselves in a situation they had probably not come across before.

With that level of inexperience, they would not have acquired any street-smarts, and totally unaware of the position they were in.

Backing up a bit.....
Our first solo's are fraught with danger! We don't know a damn thing, but manage to get around the circuit. If an engine failure occurred during that first solo circuit, I wonder how we would have coped?

[Squawk7700]

Very recently a runway was closed at a small country strip due to an incident. No dramas normally except a student was up on their first solo. They subsequently had to try and find an alternate, (10nm away) but couldn't find it as they had never been there before.

You wouldn't normally think of that happening in advance !

[Homesick-Angel]

Here's the thing.

More than ever, flight training is about mitigation , and for you older folk who did it the old way, yes -now at times to the detriment of basic skills and knowledge - sometimes the syllabus is presented in such depth that it misses simple key elements, or is simply not taught correctly due to being too detailed and confusing in the first place. The reality is that at its core it hasn't changed all that much, just the wording and presentation has become a wankfest.

It Still comes down to the individual instructor and his or her ability to convey the stuff that actually matters while still reaching the required tolerances (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100212/part-61-instrument-vol4-schedule-8.pdf) as well as the "non technical skills" (Airmanship FFS!)

I don't have much recent knowledge on the organisation involved here, but what I do know is that it was, in the past, renowned for setting extremely high standards of its staff and students. I can't see any reason for it to have changed.

For all you guys pointing fingers who have not instructed, then you should simply walk away from this discussion. For any student to get to the first solo Nav, they have jumped through plenty of hoops, and proven to a relatively experienced instructor and a flight examiner that they are capable of dealing with many types of emergencies and situations.

The thing is, you cant show all situations to a student (you couldn't if you flew with them for 5 years), and you have to make an educated guess based on what you do see. There is always some element of risk but you've just spent the previous period of time trying to mitigate them. Perhaps a student is strong, and during the sign outs, They're able to discuss the wx and what they would do in various scenarios, but faced with a situation out of the box the worse happens?.

It will all come out in the wash, as no pilots paper work will be more in depth and recent as a student pilot.

[Track5milefinal]

Probably not. I believe ATC assisted with three unrelated VFR-in-IMC or VFR-on-top-of-cloud incidents in various parts of Victoria yesterday. THis crash is not included in those.

VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir ! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.

Also being investigated by the ATSB https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2015/aair/ao-2015-106.aspx

[Squawk7700]

The ATSB has commenced an investigation into an occurrence where a PA28 aircraft, VH-TAU, inadvertently entered cloud while on a solo visual flight rules navigation exercise. The pilot in VH-TAU radioed for ATC assistance. An instructor in a nearby SR22 aircraft, gave assistance to the pilot by radio, enabling them to climb the PA28 above the cloud. The SR22 then accompanied VH-TAU back to Moorabbin Airport.

As part of the investigation, the ATSB will interview the pilots of both aircraft, obtain operator reports and ATC data. A report is expected within several months.



That was very noble of the SR22 pilot. I'm guessing the pilot was probably quite shaken.

Damn lucky the cloud was able to be climbed through. I'm aware of pilots that have entered it at 1500 or so, only to find that it went up to 9,000 and beyond! (60,000ft on one occasion where something like this happened)

[IFEZ]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. If it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. Can I respectfully suggest that the best way to mitigate the risk would have been to wait for a better day? There's plenty of opportunity to fly in more marginal conditions both dual & solo later on. If I don't see a cloud base of 3,500', good vis and no sign of deteriorating weather, I won't send them 1st solo. Too conservative..? Maybe, maybe not.


Of course if it wasn't a 1st solo nav then the approach becomes less conservative depending on the individual circumstances. I still haven't seen anything yet that confirms if in this case, this was a 1st solo nav or not.

[Track5milefinal]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. If it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. Can I respectfully suggest that the best way to mitigate the risk would have been to wait for a better day? There's plenty of opportunity to fly in more marginal conditions both dual & solo later on. If I don't see a cloud base of 3,500', good vis and no sign of deteriorating weather, I won't send them 1st solo. Too conservative..? Maybe, maybe not.

Anywhere you can dig up a historical TAF/ARFOR?

[Squawk7700]

The first solo nav is exactly that... a first SOLO nav. Presumably a number of dual Nav's took place prior.

Where does it end though? You can't just not send a student on a nav because there may be cloud in the area.

I'm anticipating seeing a writeup on this exact topic from the ATSB with a few guidelines, but that being said, nothing has changed to warrant a change to the system.

We weren't there so we don't know what happened.

[rjtjrt]

Quote:
VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir ! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.

It would be valuable to see a write up from the instructor in VH-QQT, on what lessons she/he can pass on from his/her experience.

[SuperCessna]

Just to advise you, this particular first nav solo takes you past Colac to Swan Marsh, then north to Ballarat, then back to Point Cook via Melton South.

[Al E. Vator]

Fool Course Pitch - can you give it a rest please. The dad was understandably hugely distressed at this accident and people like you just make matters so much worse.
Grow up and peddle your unproven hypothetical theories somewhere else at a letter date please.

[FoolCorsePich]

http://i.imgur.com/GG4Idck.jpg

Grow up

No

[Centre of Pressure]

5milefinal

Formulario para peticion de mensajes aeronauticos (http://www.ogimet.com/metars.phtml.en)

Only seems to have the majors though

[VHQOK]

We don't know what happened to the flight. Hopefully the G1000 has an SD card for flight log.
My condolences go out to the deceased pilot and his/her family,the flying school and the instructor/s who trained and looked after the trainee.
Having been flying around this part of Vic for few years now and I can say that weather around YBLT, the southern slope and ranges is particularly challenging. I am not implying that it is the causal factor for this accident because we don't know yet.
Break break......not implying anything
What is truely missing? The teaching and assessing TEM,NTS in accordance with CAAP 5.59 and MOS Part 61.
Too often,Instructors make decisions for students. When student make a wrong decision they get shouted at. What about demonstrate, direct and monitor situational awareness and decision making ? What about read the CAAP and few other human factor books on aeronautical decision making?

[KRviator]

So the report is out now (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5774183/ao-2015-105-final.pdf) and suggests a mis-managed autopilot, or rather, attempting to hand-fly in pitch, with the autopilot also engaged, such that when it was disengaged the aircraft was seriously out of trim with insufficient height/awareness to recover. Of note, Garmin doesn't think a caution against doing so, in the same vein as the previous Bendix King autopilot, is warrented as apparently not doing so 'is common knowledge' - well, apparently not...

The last recorded data shows a -10* FD pitch command, and a -24* pitch angle. At around 750AGL. Small wonder the MLG and nose (not the NLG) hit almost simultaneously. Yikes!

Also it's interesting to note a requirement of the school that NavEx's be conducted with a minimum height of 1000AGL, and the plan is to be checked by an instructor. The plan for the accident flight resulted in a clearance of only 250AGL on one leg. := "But, but. but, most students flew to one side of the hill..."

[Judd]

Excellent report by ATSB. But what an avoidable tragic accident. I note that the flight instrumentation in that modern Cessna 172 includes a modern glass cockpit and autopilot flight director system. FD's were designed to aid instrument flying. That flight was a VFR cross-country presumably using map reading which means looking outside.

Perhaps training organisations need to avoid getting sucked in by the seduction of todays sophisticated flight instrument and autopilot displays that come with new aircraft. Students should not be using flight directors or autopilots during ab-initio training; and that includes cross-country map reading.

No wonder that pilots brought up to use these relatively sophisticated aids in their light training aircraft types so early in their flying career (the unfortunate young pilot only had 50 hours flying experience), eventually become the "automatic monkeys" commonly found on the flight decks of airliners.

The flying school concerned quite rightly reminded its students to only use the autopilot (includes the FD) to reduce the workload if things get too much. They forget however, it is only natural for today's new pilots brought up and expert on using IPads and smart phones will want to play with the aircraft automatics and their colourful instrument flying goodies, during solo cross country legs with no one looking over their shoulder.

[Jetman346]

Very sad condolenses to family and friends

[andrewr]

The flying school concerned quite rightly reminded its students to only use the autopilot (includes the FD) to reduce the workload if things get too much.

Unless you are very familiar with the functions, the autopilot is likely to increase the workload rather than decrease it. "What's it doing now" or "Why is it doing that" are classic phrases leading up to accidents right up to jet transport level when a system isn't well enough understood.

Part of human factors training should be to recognise when technology is becoming a distraction and go back to the basics of manual flying (aviate, etc...)

[kaz3g]

Just heard that the pilot was female. Makes it even worse as there are so few girls flying these days. Very upsetting for all involved.

Thanks Squarkie. Appreciate the thought.

Sincere condolences to family, friends and colleagues.

Kaz