"Catastrophic failure" of ATC system

[vhhhatc]

Reported in a local newspaper Ming Pao (http://news.mingpao.com/pns/%E6%96%B0%E7%A9%BA%E7%AE%A1%E7%B3%BB%E7%B5%B1%E5%AE%89%E5%85 %A8%E6%88%90%E7%96%91%E7%85%A7%E9%81%8E%E9%97%9C%20%E6%B8%AC %E8%A9%A6%E7%8F%BE%E3%80%8C%E7%81%BD%E9%9B%A3%E6%80%A7%E6%95 %85%E9%9A%9C%E3%80%8D%20%E9%AB%98%E5%B1%A4%E6%8B%92%E5%BE%9E %E9%A0%AD%E5%86%8D%E9%A9%97/web_tc/article/20150907/s00001/1441561930240), there are serious safety concerns over our new ATC system AT3 which is under testing.

Quoted from sources from "internal CAD document", the testing of AT3 suffered a "catastrophic failure" in late July and the system was "paralyzed" during testing. Despiste of this, people from the "higher level" insisted the reliability test be given a "pass".

According to the report, a local legislator received annonymous complaint letters, allegedly sent from CAD staff, stated serious concerns over the new ATC system.

Sorry it is only available in Chinese but the point illustrated below is one of the issues which is overlapping of labels. And the texts on the left contrasted the views between "frontline staff" and "CAD response", and it is not hard to guess who is on which side.

http://fs.mingpao.com/pns/20150907/s00006/65d6c1fee8e6a99ed504b3632ef195fd.jpg

Can we trust this new system?:suspect:

[Beholder]

The previous post is a bit heavy for gweilo, can someone translate it.

[Lowkoon]

Overdue, over budget and under spec. Is anyone really surprised? ATC front line staff will be forced to separate us with an inadequate piece of kit, and no one does anything but give lip service to their legitimate concerns until two of us collide. They sack the controller, everyone calls it a shocking tragic unavoidable event, and the guys that took a kick back to get the substandard system up and running deny all knowledge of the "fault" to the sham inquiry. Did I miss anything?

[Sqwak7700]

the point illustrated below is one of the issues which is overlapping of labels.

Oh great. Couple this with the usual TD converging zone and the dominoes are starting to line up.

Looks like the CAD is run by the same people running CPA. No surprise there.

:ugh:

[Oasis]

Good time to update your spectacles and look out of that cockpit window again...
At least we still have tcas too.
Have a feeling this will also add to the airspace congestion and subsequent delays we are facing at the moment.

[A-GPS]

What is the radio phraseology for ATC system failure??

[Sam Ting Wong]

"Calcutta, Calcutta"

[Nut.Nut]

"all station! all station! our system is under an intentional catastrophic failure. all squawk standby"

[Nut.Nut]

"Calcutta, Calcutta" sounds like "Gee Tart Tart, Gee Tart Tart" in Cantonese :eek:

[Shep69]

Couldn't understand the OP.

Aren't these the same folks who do our rostering ?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I thought Raytheon had thrown the towel with the CAD who had ridiculous custom specifications for it rather than buying the turn-key system...?

By the by, here's another article, slightly older but in English, about the whole fiasco:
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1744122/chek-lap-kok-flap-over-possibly-dud-air-traffic-control-system?page=all

[fxxkerkit]

frontline staff have written over hundreds of concerns over the system, those real concerns not " oh i dont like the color of the acft c/s " but management give a ****. They are so determined to make this done and retire with their pension safe in pocket. :}

[Chingchung]

vhhhatc, why should a system under test was being alarmed to such extent. The simulator said to be the same software crashed from time to time. It is time for all of us to become normalised and be prepared for our d day. There is no "Back to the Future" car.

[perfectenergy]

Of course no coverage from the media as they already consider FDP failure is not a catastrophic failure then why simulator. The training officers dawdled three days to finish the pilot course today. All the "tamed" harbinger for this pilot course were happy and gave a green light for the start of the conversion training next week. Shame of you guys! :mad:

[LapSap]

QUOTE: All the "tamed" harbinger for this pilot course were happy and gave a green light for the start of the conversion training next week


Not what we heard over the road.
Approach side and regulator very unhappy with the "final" course.
"woeful" was the term we heard.


How's the Chiefs shadowing plan going now???

[lepsap]

A.Titanic.3 course meal:

Appetizer (conversion training)
Main course (shadowing)
Desserts (ghosting)

If you still have qualms, you can order extra desserts (back word) to make your day :mad:

You don't need to settle your bill at the end of the day as the boss will do it for you provided you consume all the meal and do not leave the restaurant even if you have diarrhoea. Boss is good, they will give you diapers.....unlimited supply.

[Lovely_Management]

Chiefs, why not attend the conversion training and tell us the system is anywhere near to a usable system for live traffic operation. You can still lie to us but you will not lie to yourself. There are lots of pilots in this forum watching us posting worries which are real. You can still force us to attend conversion training with simulated targets that we can ask the simulator pilot "delete the flight". But, you will have a big big mistake if you send us to attend shadowing with live traffic. Once you do that with such an unready system, the confidence of us will drop to abyss that you will not be able to rescue the situation....not to mention there is a high possibility of system hiccup during the shadowing.

One step further back and look at what are available in the system, the current provisions are not suitable to our mode of operations. If you are so stubborn for your "grand" agenda, 50 years unchanged fragrant harbour would have an early kick start from the sky. Those beyond 55 can start counting your fingers and I have a weblink to help:
Civil Service Bureau - Pension calculator & pension benefits formulae (http://www.csb.gov.hk/print/english/admin/retirement/185.html)

:cool:

[Eyes only]

The UK, China, Taiwan, Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, around 4000 locations around the world have Eurocat installed.

The UAE and India are currently dumping Raytheon because it does not work.

[john_null]

Catastrophic spec give birth to catastrophic system. We should nail the spec writer who fled to Ozzie.

[ClearToLand]

Catastrophic spec give birth to catastrophic system. We should nail the spec writer who fled to Ozzie.

spec writing is a one man job?

[VSD]

I must say that particular Ozzzz gave us a lot of all-round damages.

[perfectenergy]

We are getting too personal. The system is a crap, no country is going to buy it, country using it is going to get rid of it, country about to use it is having birth pain regularly. The focus is on the system not on person although that fugitive, instead of our beloved DG, should be deplored. Shame of you next time you return to HK. :mad::mad:

[ClearToLand]

We are getting too personal. The system is a crap, no country is going to buy it, country using it is going to get rid of it, country about to use it is having birth pain regularly. The focus is on the system not on person although that fugitive, instead of our beloved DG, should be deplored. Shame of you next time you return to HK. :mad::mad:

You are getting too personal perfectenergy aka chingchung. Did you take photo of that poor satco for oriental daily?

[lee.ho.ma]

Are you sure it is clear to land? it may be just another left behind Oz in project who is doing nothing good to anyone that everyone knows him stays away from him. Tell Mama you can fix the current situation.

[ClearToLand]

Are you sure it is clear to land? it may be just another left behind Oz in project who is doing nothing good to anyone that everyone knows him stays away from him. Tell Mama you can fix the current situation.

Of course, we local are the BEST, blame everything on gweiloes then we will be fine. Mama is so proud of you.

[EARLY-GO]

Whether that thing safe or unsafe we don't care, what we care is the early go benefit would it be affected?

[TOIL]

Hey, you catch my attention, make sure one hour is deducted.

[Nut.Nut]

The stubbornness of procedure design make the system less efficient. Hearsay the crashes during training and testing were due to the wrong adaptation which should not be a surprise to me, that IT boy creates lots of damage to us.

[youknowwho]

Adaptation takes more than IT.

I doubt even the adaptation system itself was done properly at the first place.

Ask everyone else in the world. All Main, Fallback, Sim, Dev systems could share the one SINGLE adaptation station only. not to mention, how many user it allows?

If the spec is written by the Ozzie. He should known well enough how the French prepared the dataset for ASA to validate and verify.

That is the stuff you paid for yet doing it yourself here in HK.

Stop talking about IT, you got Engineer here, they are not real IT people. yet engineer here are in fact coordinator only.

[atfso]

To minimise the scale of failure, implement AT3 on Approach stream first. The approach people are all :ok: on this system, all their comments are positive (the negative comments are all shredded). Almost none in Area stream said AT3 is usable in enroute and terminal sectors. Approach stream is always protected, they are given the best conditions and first try on this remarkable system :rolleyes:......Jealous!

[MTCD]

What I can say is we are all cheated by this company who sold us this rubbish machine. The curry people and middle east are giving up this junk but we are still embracing it then so be it. You have no choice as the current one is dying; furthermore, an unusable new ATC system could post big hurdle on the third runway project that management has to say we are satisfactory to the progress. Let us see how far they can cover up this skunk. They show up in the course critique are only giving us placebo and in fact don't care what we said in the course critique in the conversion training. The unit who formulates the procedures is hopeless. Nothing! Nothing they can do with this garbage system.

You have two choices: Work on this skunk machine or resign.

[bekolblockage]

The unit who formulates the procedures is hopeless.

Good to see you supporting your fellow ATC colleagues. With friends like you, who needs enemies.
They are ATCOs just like you ( only better) and are grappling with a system that even the vendor seems to know little about. I would venture to say there are a couple of people in that Unit who know more than RTN about the system. One in particular. Without him, CAD would be doomed.
Feel free to put your money where your mouth is and ask to join the Unit and develop procedures you think are better.
No?
Thought not. Spineless, loud mouth people are like that.

[TOIL]

Without him, CAD would be doomed.

How can that be in particular the one cannot be trusted. :D Bekol needs to write him a very very very good staff report every year to keep him motivated to avoid a doomed cad. :E:eek::}

[youknowwho]

I don't need become a master chef to know what taste bad.

On the other hand, I believe RTN knew too well how their system is really like, but they are not doing charity, what is point of expose everything to you. Off course, they can't stop you exploring yourself and find tricks a get around a few problems. but is the right way to fix problems?

Sure there are million options you can try, sure there is a change you may get this Frankenstein to animate a bit, or even you can develop procedures to work without AT3. Sure the ball will leave you one day, but it will not take long to come back to burn you harder.

[youknowwho]

The argument here is not about whether who/how/what the system can be further worked. it is not about the system at all.

The problem is who landed us into this situation at the first place? how long has this been going on? and still push to go on.

I just don't feel doing myself any good for helping those people rolling the ball around.

[MENELAUS]

And in a vicarious way, the standard of written English demonstrated by these posts really fills one with a whole lot of confidence. NOT. !!

[Beholder]

Ladies and gentlemen, brother 4 speaking again, cock your ear!

[youknowwho]

Those who hesitate to talk will never learn to speak.

And the British council does not offer AT3 conversion training unfortunately.

Pleeeeeese pardon me for my poor Chinklish.

[EARLY-GO]

And the British council does not offer AT3 conversion training unfortunately.


Would anyone (except "youknowwho") please decode. :confused:

[delay_no_more]

Crappy machine will be operated by crappy controller with broken English. Perfect chemistry for a doomed outcome. Our doomed to failure day is not far away. Sigh!

[pragmaticallysynergy]

Anyone seen the UK NTS report?
Are we going to have another catastrophic system failure?

[youknowwho]

ANC just had one maJOR Failure last Sat.

"Catastrophic" option though is not available.

[TOIL]

ANC just had one maJOR Failure last Sat.

"Catastrophic" option though is not available.

Improvement noted, please practise more. Elaborate how "major" was it.

[youknowwho]

Our good neighbor had just stopped talking to us, for a tiny little one hour only.

[APP]

The Transport and Housing Bureau have no faith in our clever DG anymore after the Legco report, they have asked NATS to evaluate AT3 before commissioning it. For our leaders to hold their heads up as if nothing has happened is shameful, they must be trying hard now to pamper NATS so that the report will not be so damaging. We will still be the victims of their mistakes and they will collect their big pension regardless.

[yat.kin.fat.choy]

I would also be interested to kown what would the UK NATS report say our crappy air traffic control system. Anyone knows?

[Lovely_Management]

The UK NATS report might say this:

CAD to scale down the ATC operation and hand over the appoach airspace to Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Zhuhai. We can only run business on enoute. Sounds reasonable?

[perfectenergy]

vhhhatc:

After reading all these posts and another thread, the heading of this thread can be changed to "Catastrophic Failure of Management", please consider.

[youknowwho]

I would also be interested to kown what would the UK NATS report say our crappy air traffic control system. Anyone knows?

Well, These so called independent expert reports can be always influenced by the whom paying for it.

[AsPerDesign]

Our management should apology to us that they made mistake in buying this unusable system and beg for LEGCO to grant another sum of money for a less aggressive system - ddgca/adg(yes) don't bluff to outstation that we are number one in the region anymore. Meanwhile, spend more money to upkeep the current system until the new one is ready. Controller only need a simple system not the current fake new system or other famous brand world class system as we don't have money, no manpower and no time.

Management, please listen, this is all about safety.

[youknowwho]

Controller only need a simple system not the current fake new system or other famous brand world class system as we don't have money, no manpower and no time.

Picking the wrong system was just one thing, AT3 is just part of the whole new system in the new CADHQ.

We are not trying to replace AT1 with AT3 on our existing more stabilized system here. we are actually trying to build everything brand new from scratch, spreading resources thin for every project.

In fact, AT3 can be made to work with existing AT1 sub systems. all the testing run so far, with life data came from the old system.

Even we decided to build everything brand new, if RTN was the lead integrator for the whole system, then pressure will be on them to complete everything on time on order before everything can be integrated then they get their money. yet, the decision was made to integrate everything ourself, not to mentioned, with our technical skills from the AT1 era.

Listening they may be, but look at the decision so far, i doubt how their next one would be....................

[youknowwho]

I was wondering, How can an investigation report be balanced and independent, if they don't get the story from both sides.

[youknowwho]

The latest RTN patch just managed to unfix the FDP a little further. but off course, it is all under control as expected.

[Beholder]

Don't worry, FDP is not a core system, there are many other more important core systems in our grand ATMS that FDP can be ignored. We are going to have paper system and very soon SOO(P)1+3 will call for staff consultation of paper size....A3, A2, .....or a clip board. If we make more noise again, they will give us toilet paper roll in each position for recording the flight data.

[youknowwho]

no problem, you got FDP, it is even more positive this time. The Fallback just refused to site there doing nothing, so it became the 2nd Main to double the flight data for you, free of charge. that is double positive.

[VSD]

no problem, you got FDP, it is even more positive this time. The Fallback just refused to site there doing nothing, so it became the 2nd Main to double the flight data for you, free of charge. that is double positive.

youknowwho, I really appreciate you made so many posts and I try to understand each post you made. It is a pleasure to read the posts as long as you make your point easy to understand. Thanks.

[Beholder]

Any update on this subject? Or you are just a copy&paste and then walk away??

[A-GPS]

Oriental Newspaper today-
???? ????????? ?????? - ???? (http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20160111/00174_001.html)

Although the newspaper said 4.2、3.8、4.1、3.7 nautical miles are no good, but I think 3.7 or even 3 nautical miles are also legally ok :confused: and not very catastrophic.

[AsPerDesign]

The fluctuating ruler scale is an as-per-design world class feature, only in Aids-Tear-Fear, specially designed for pragmatic Hong Kong controller. They thought you liked it?!

[Chingchung]

Another 2=5 boy's work on Monday.....
獨家揭露 民航處半盲空管系統 年中冒險啟用
東方報業集團自二○一三年開始，連番踢爆民航處斥資十五億元更換的新空管系統Autotrac 3問題多多，即使最近進入測試亦多番故障及失準。消息人士再向本集團揭露新系統存在重大瑕疵，雷達竟未能同步更新「近距離航機位 置」，導致空管人員無法及時識別兩架航機相距低於四海里的安全距離；而屏幕上的航機位置更新頻率，亦較十多年前引入的舊系統更慢 ，性能「新不如舊」。問題雖經已反映，但民航處高層堅持新系統要在今年六月前啟用，航空安全堪憂。有民航機師指新系統如未能準確 監測近距離航機的位置，會影響機師判斷與鄰近航機的安全距離，必須正視。.....

[youknowwho]

I wonder why only these 2 ended up on the paper this time, instead of the more severe regressions.

[TOIL]

It is a catastrophic organization failure. The ddg and his shoeshiner should go to jail.

[MTCD]

What a useless manufacturer! Apart from India and Dubai, does anyone know if this company can sell this product to any other countries?

TOIL, would you please use a bigger fonts size cos I almost read "ddg" as "dog".:cool:

[youknowwho]

Raytheon sold it to the Canadian as CAATS. It was 11 years delayed.

It managed to complete, only when the Canadian government sacked the department in 1996 and dumped the whole ATC business everything on NavCan.

NavCan actually took the final system delivered by RTN, and re-worked it to made it usable eventually. They might know the system better than RTN.

CAATS was actually developed by the Richmond branch of RTN/Hughes in Canada, there are numbers of HK migrants worked in that development team now backed in HK working in the airport area.

[Nut.Nut]

We are being told last month the new system will put into operation on 1 November. Short guy did not say which year but I guess he is talking this year.

[VSD]

Anyone knows what the NATS said about our new system? Ready to go operational in the midst of this year like what DG and its muppet swore in the LEGCO interrogation?

[youknowwho]

NATS is running systems developed in the 70s this days.

Their system has much higher failure rate than their European counterparts, yet they managed to get away with statistics, just because the French and Spanish controller strikes more.

I remembered reading somewhere, their CEO mentioned the most unreliable element in a ATC system is the system user. sound a bit like the factory worker analogy to me.

[youknowwho]

NATS: Bumpy ride ahead as data system crashes (http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/NATS-Bumpy-ride-ahead-as-data-system-crashes)

Key events in Nats diary

.....
1992: system contract for new air traffic control system let to IBM Federal Systems. Target operational date is 1996
1998: Commons Select Committee criticises Nats over Swanwick
Spring 2000: parliament debates plans to sell 51% share in Nats
October 2000: planned technical handover of Swanwick
January 2001: conversion training for air traffic controllers
Spring 2002: final deadline for Swanwick to go into operational use

Nats 'regrets' chaos caused by computer glitch:
Nats 'regrets' chaos caused by computer glitch - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30464954)
Flight disruption: Air traffic control glitch has been 'rectified' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30463551)
NATS ignored previous recommendations – IT cock-up report
NATS ignored previous recommendations ? IT cock-up report ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/26/nats_ignored_previous_recommendations_it_cockup_report/)

From our forum:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/552783-all-london-airspace-closed-10.html

[SuzieWong]

From the persons that know....


"CAD loves NATS coz they can manipulate them.
Top brass badgers the hi tech kid into changing his retired consultants recommendations.
Spinning whatever the CAD wants to hear and tell Bureau.
NATS is no longer considered world's best practice. Just adept at churning out endless reports with what CAD officers already knew. Sounds better if it comes from an "expert" of course."


Too much secrecies in CAD now. Unhelthy situation. Lot of whispering going on.

[EARLY-GO]

Anyone knows what the NATS said about our new system? Ready to go operational in the midst of this year like what DG and its muppet swore in the LEGCO interrogation?

It must be a shameful report. The new centre opening day is still June/July this year?

[youknowwho]

NATS is not the air safety authority of UK. They have long been investigated for safety by UK's Civil Aviation Authority.

If one main purpose of hiring those NATS expert was to investigate the new systems safety, then, I am not so sure they are the right expert in safety investigation. On the other hand, They definitely had longer/better experiences in dueling with government for long delayed projects.

[youknowwho]

On news again today

http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20160322/00176_035.html

[waitnseesee]

Our project friend showed me that all the "smart" guys inventing the "23-month" magic figure back in 2006 have happily retired, leaving us as the victims.

Yet, the remaining one from the same "smart" group will soon collect his lump sum and monthly cash, crossing fingers to see our show. Hey, do something !

[youknowwho]

As long as the management culture remains, don't expect too much.

[Hopeless CAD]

Guys, no need to provide comment in each training and briefing. Just need to nod your head and respond with yea, oh yea, good yea......it is too late to give any comment. All project team members are now yes man like the woman who also swings her head when her boss gives a speech......yes sir yes sir yes madam.

Behave a good boy & girl, don't be a trouble maker.

Mr 23 is not DG who is just a deciple, the true Mr 23 is the head of A.Year.Air.Dill.

[youknowwho]

There is this generation of manager, who were trained and brain washed with academic business theories that superior management process and system does not require technical know-hows and morals. superior management system can even make a dog more productive than human.

he is not alone at all for making the "factory worker" analogy.

[EARLY-GO]

he is not alone at all for making the "factory worker" analogy.

He said ATCX is jungle and Dragonair House is city.

[Hopeless CAD]

This is the story of Hong Kong Air Traffic Management System:

http://i.imgur.com/dMK6CW4.jpg

[Sea Eggs]

Hong Kong to build third runway; will impose passenger levy | Airports & Routes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/hong-kong-build-third-runway-will-impose-passenger-levy?NL=ATW-04&Issue=ATW-04_20160603_ATW-04_910&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_10_8&utm_rid=CPEN1000000456167&utm_campaign=6122&utm_medium=email&elq2=3ecba55276454ff1b55c949a49f5c038)


The Hong Kong Airport Authority (HKAA) will add a surcharge on all departing passenger tickets from Aug. 1, 2016, to help fund the construction of a third runway at Hong Kong International Airport (HKG).

The fee, called an Airport Construction Fee (ACF), will apply to departing passengers including both origin-destination and transit-transfer travelers using HKG.

The charge will vary according to the type of flight—long-haul or short-haul—and the class of cabin used by the passengers. It will vary from HK$70 ($9) for economy short-haul to HK$180 for business long-haul users at the airport, with a slight reduction for passengers using transit facilities only.

HKAA said it expects around 70% of passengers using HKG will pay less than HK$90 on each ACF ticket levy.

“We have considered a number of factors [in introducing the ACF], including … the additional cost imposed on passengers, and maintaining HKG’s competitiveness as a hub airport,” HKAA CEO Fred Lam said.

The airport is targeting 2023 for completion of the new runway, which will include an extra terminal and taxiways, and cost an estimated HK$141.5 billion.

Work is scheduled to begin on the new runway in Aug. 2016, and the collection of the ACF will continue “until all borrowings related to the third runway project have been fully repaid,” said HKAA in a statement.

HKG saw 68.5 million passengers in 2015, and it handled 4.38 million tonnes of cargo during the same period. The extra runway is expected to boost these to 102 million passengers and 8.9 million tonnes of cargo by 2030.

[brother4]

The ex-assistant director of marine department and senior ship inspector were both sentenced to jail what about CAD testing team of the rubbish atc system? will they also go to jail?

[TOIL]

I prefer to see the AT Cheap system to jail.