HS 125 Crash Dakar (GOOY)

[Melax]

Senegalair HS 125 Medevac from Ouagadougou to Dakar Crashed. The press is reporting the last radar contact was 60NM West of Dakar, a little strange if you're coming from Ouaga ? Maybe they overshot Dakar and crashed while turning around ? They are also reporting fuel exhaustion as the cause. all 7 aboard presumed dead

Link in french

Crash d'un avion de Sénégalair au large de Dakar (http://www.seneweb.com/news/Transport/crash-d-un-avion-de-senegalair-au-large-_n_163021.html)

[MrMachfivepointfive]

When was the last time anybody talked to the flight?

[ettore]

According to Radio France Internationale (RFI), a near-miss between an A/C from Equatorial Guinea en route to Cotonou (but flew back to Malabo after the near-miss) and the Senegalair A/C chartered by SOS Médecins would have led the latest to loose cabine pressure, incapacitating everyone on board (since no radio-contact could be established after the near-miss). Which would explain why the plane crashed 111 Km westward from Dakar after fuel exhaustion. No source named by RFI.

Link : Sept morts dans le crash d'un avion sanitaire au large du Sénégal - Afrique - RFI (http://www.rfi.fr/afrique/20150906-sept-morts-le-crash-avion-sanitaire-large-senegal)

[atakacs]

Unclear what happened here but really strange that it overshot Dakar by such a distance

[captplaystation]

As suggested in the 2nd post, maybe a near miss because no one was "awake" in the HS125 ?

[tubby linton]

West of Dakar is in the ocean!

[ettore]

@captplaystation

Correct, the RFI piece of news can actually be interpreted the other way around : first incapacitation, then near-miss. Not much to bet on CVR/FDR being found and fished out the depth, so it's up to the crew from the Equatorial Guinea A/C to provide more hints on what could have happened, I guess.

[Melax]

No TCAS ??

[Alain67]

The article refers to the first elements of the inquiry, without any exact quotation.
Then it is said that the lost of cabine pressure was a consequence of the near miss (there was a hit, reported by the other plane !).
I'm not saying they are right and you are wrong, but that's what is said in the article.

[DaveReidUK]

Then it is said that the lost of cabine pressure was a consequence of the near miss (there was a hit, reported by the other plane !).

Yes, I think we may be wide of the mark (npi) in interpreting this as a airmiss. The RFI article certainly suggests there was actual contact between the 125 and an unidentified Guinee Equatorial AL flight (they have a 767, a 777 and assorted smaller types).

[chuks]

Too, I think that an HS-125 may not be required to be equipped with a CVR and an FDR.

It's not that uncommon for aircraft to overfly a coastal destination and then end up in the drink, even from a single pilot falling asleep while on autopilot.

[grizzled]

This is going to be a most interesting story as it unfolds.

An aircraft is missing.
Earlier in the flight another aircraft reported a near miss with the aircraft that is now missing.
Much later, the aircraft that reported the near miss re-states the situation as "we might have hit".
The aircraft that they "might have hit" continued to fly (nordo) until (presumed) fuel exhaustion.

Curiouser and curiouser...

[The Ancient Geek]

Sounds like all we have is daft theories and press exageration.
If there had been a collision both aircraft would have been damaged, show me pictures of the damage to the other aircraft.

[akaSylvia]

More info here, including details of the CEIB (CEL 071) Boeing 737 that reported the issue.

"L'avion SENEGAL AIR a croisé un vol de la compagnie CEIBA" (ANACIM) (http://www.dakaractu.com/L-avion-SENEGAL-AIR-a-croise-un-vol-de-la-compagnie-CEIBA-ANACIM_a96870.html)

[grizzled]

Ancient Geek

With respect...
There is now enough information -- including the communique from ANACIM and the passenger comments -- to indicate that there may have been a midair collision.

That's not a daft notion in west Africa, or anywhere else for that matter, even if one of the aircraft suffered little damage (think Brazil). My guess is that the pictures you are seeking will indeed show up soon.

Cheers,
grizz

[Teddy Robinson]

via google translate ... unedited.


ANACIM) announced Sunday night that Senegalair air aircraft registered 6 VAIM from Ouagadougou and which is currently at sea researched flight had crossed the BICI (CEL 071) Boeing 737 800 to Cotonou at 18h 12 min GMT about 300 NM (555KM) in Dakar.
'' According to preliminary information, there would have been a collision between the two aircraft, that the results of the technical investigation will confirm or deny, '' says' the ANACIM in a statement received in APS.
The same source added that the CEIBA flight that took off from Dakar at 17h 29 min GMT has finally heading to Malabo where he landed at 21h 40 min.
An air collision is a collision between two aircraft in flight. The main factors explaining these collisions are human (miscommunication, misunderstanding between the pilot and air traffic controller or between pilots, navigational error, decreased alertness, changing flight plans) and material.
The plane of the Equatorial Guinean company CEIBA Intercontinental who had left Dakar on Saturday afternoon to rally Cotonou, was forced, for unknown reasons the hundred passengers who were on board, landing in Malabo where another device was responsible for conveying them to the capital of Benin, told APS Sunday from Cotonou, one of the passengers.
The arrival in Cotonou was planned at 21:30 but with this setback it took place around 3am, the source said, noting that the plane was '' not far from Cotonou '' when '' the commander board announced that for technical and security reasons, he was compelled to focus on
Malabo. ''
'' The crew did not want too much to dwell on the reasons for this were to land or ignored stopover travelers essentially '', added the front passenger to assert that '' the rest of the way to Malabo lasting about an hour after the announcement of the captain, would happen in a heavy silence. ''
By way of explanation, the passenger acknowledges that, like '' a lot '' of his companions' have felt, more than half an hour after taking off from Dakar, a rather abrupt and rapid noise on aircraft '', revealed that a passenger in business class, on the basis of information obtained from the crew, told him that their device '' had come into contact with another outdoor air ... ' '.
Research undertaken since Saturday to find the plane of Air Senegal Company (private) that disappeared from radar screens the same day at 7:08 p.m., resumed Sunday at 6 am with the opening match of two aircraft and a ship of the Navy announced to the Senegalese Press Agency the communications department of the Ministry of Air Transport.
The Navy ship is sufficiently equipped to stay ten days at sea, said the source, adding that at the time of his disappearance Senegal Air aircraft was 111 km west of Dakar, either Wed.
In addition to the logistical deployment, a crisis unit was installed at Dakar airport.
The unit left Ouagadougou had its seven passengers on board; three members of the crew (an Algerian and two Congolese), a Senegalese doctor and two nurses and a fellow French nationality patient.
Prime Minister Abdullah Mahammad Boune Dionne, the Minister of Interior, Daouda Diallo Andoulaye and his colleague of the Armed Forces, Augustin Tine, meadows follow the developments regarding this case.

[readywhenreaching]

a mid-air contact would possibly have left some impression on the flightcrew and some marks on the 737..pretty easy to find out

[Macbook2007]

Missing Medevac plane may have collided with Boeing in Senegal | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/07/us-crash-senegal-air-idUSKCN0R717V20150907?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews)

[grizzled]

The latest from Reuters (Dakar):

"A Senegal-bound medical evacuation plane with seven people aboard appears to have collided with a much larger Boeing plane shortly before vanishing from radar screens, Senegal’s aviation authority said.
The private Senegalair plane was carrying a French patient as well as a doctor, two nurses and three crew members from Burkina Faso’s capital Ouagadougou to Senegal’s Dakar on Saturday night. But it overshot the coastal capital by more than 100 km (60 miles) and then vanished above the Atlantic Ocean.
Search and rescue efforts continued on Monday.

“According to initial information, there was a collision between two aircrafts and we are seeking to either confirm or to rule this out with the technical investigation,” said the director general of Senegalese civil aviation authority ANACIM, Magueye Marame Ndao, in a statement.

At 1813 GMT on Saturday, about an hour before vanishing, the Medevac plane crossed paths with a Boeing B737 800 operated by Ceiba International Airlines about 555 km from Dakar, the statement added.
The Ceiba flight, originally due to fly from Dakar to Benin’s capital Cotonou, later landed in Malabo in Equatorial Guinea where the airline is based. Ceiba was not immediately available for comment.

Among the other passengers on board the plane were two Algerians and a citizen of Congo, the aviation authority previously said, without specifying if that meant Democratic Republic of Congo or Republic of Congo."

[Melax]

There is confusion in Dakar, it's still speculation if the mid-air actually occurred.I don't understand why it takes so much time to ascertain if indeed contact was made; a quick inspection of the 738 should resolve that. The CEIBA aircraft (737-800) after the alleged incident went on to fly past Cotonou (intended destination) and landed in Malabo ?? was it to avoid the grounding of the plane and crew detention pending the investigation, Malabo being the CEIBA base/. The Mid-air allegedly took place 300Nm SE of Dakar. Nothing found yet on the SAR side.

[DaveReidUK]

The CEIBA aircraft (737-800) after the alleged incident went on to fly past Cotonou (intended destination) and landed in Malabo ??Malabo was in fact the intended final destination of the flight (from Dakar, with a planned intermediate stop at Cotonou).

[The Ancient Geek]

A physical collision is not the only possible cause of damage.

Both aircraft would have been travelling at around M0.8 pushing a shockwave in front and dragging wake turbulence behind.
At a closing speed of up to M1.6 depending on relative course a close encounter could do a lot of damage, especially to the smaller aircraft.

ATC in most of africa is a joke and something like this was just waiting to happen. At the speeds involved there would have been little chance to see and avoid.

[barit1]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/286071-offsetting-time-make-official-just-about-everywhere.html

[Revolutionary]

As African ATC goes, Dakar is actually pretty decent.

Regardless, you would expect both aircraft to have a functioning TCAS.

Off topic perhaps but CEIBA is notorious for not sticking to their published itinerary. I have heard of the Bata-to-Malabo flight being re-routed in mid-air to Mongomo at the call of some VIP's who then kept the plane waiting on the tarmac for hours before taking the trouble to actually show up...

[lilflyboy262...2]

What height was the HS125 at when it overshot?
One would assume that if lost pressurization suddenly after a hit from another aircraft, you would descend the aircraft?
If it was a gradual depressurization, then you would have expected the pilots to get on the radio asking what the heck just about ran them over...

[Melax]

The Minister of tourism and Air transport of Senegal just released a statement, saying that the Equatorial Guinea authorities upon inspection of the CEIBA aircraft are confirming that a collision occurred (Damaged wing on the 738)

Link in french.

Le rapport du pilote de la Ceiba confirme l'abordage (http://www.dakaractu.com/Le-rapport-du-pilote-de-la-Ceiba-confirme-l-abordage_a96946.html)

[Hawker 800]

When will we ever learn. So reminiscent of the Brazilian Legacy 600 incident. Again, large areas of no radar coverage.

[ATC Watcher]

A few points : The collison apparently occurred in Bamako FIR , so under control of Bamako ATC, not Senegal, so no need to mention Senegal ATC.

Reading the info like you do, the non-radar coverage is not the issue, even under procedural control ( like most of Africa is) 2 aircraft should not be at the same altitude at the same time, but if they did this is not necessarily due to ATC : levels busts, direct or avoidance tracks taken without advising ATC , etc do occur too. Let's wait a bit before aportioning blame and responsibilities here.

Looks like at first that at least one of the TCAS was inop, or not on. ( a transponder issue maybe )

Possibly the 737 wing hit the cockpit , disabled both pilots but a/c kept on flying , speciulation at this stage. The HS25 is in the water, will be difficult to retreive I guess, :" Only" 7 pax, French media not mentioning it much this week end, so the chances we'll never know are high I would say

I would love to see and hear the reports of both pilots of the 737 though...

[wangdangdoodle]

More info here, including details of the CEIB (CEL 071) Boeing 737 that reported the issue.

"L'avion SENEGAL AIR a croisé un vol de la compagnie CEIBA" (ANACIM)

[fox niner]

I had a look at the map in the area. the 737 must have been flying along Airway UA601, which has the following route: Dakar-Bamako-Tamale-cotonou-malabo. All eastbound.

The HS125 was probably flying ouagadougou UG860 bamako UA601 Dakar, west bound.

FL 350 is an eastbound level, so my GUESS is that the 737 was at least at an appropriate FL for its flight.

Perhaps the HS125 was climbing through FL 350..... Cruising at that level would not be appropriate.

[fox niner]

Collision occurred at 1813z. Which means during daylight hours, just before sunset. (Sunset on the ground at ouagadougou is at 1815z at the moment.) As the HS125 was flying westbound, they were probably looking into the setting sun.

[Nemrytter]

As the HS125 was flying westbound, they were probably looking into the setting sun.
There were quite a few CBs with tops far above FL350 along their route - depending on the timing they could well have been inside one of those at 1813z.

[400drvr]

Accident: Ceiba Intercontinental B738 over Senegal on Sep 5th 2015, midair collision with ambulance jet (http://avherald.com/h?article=48c031e2&opt=0)

[grizzled]

ATC Watcher...

I'm not sure why you conclude the collision occurred in Mali's airspace, and therefore there is "no need to mention Senegal ATC".

The information we have so far (which is admittedly very little indeed) includes a Lat and Long position given by the Senegalese which puts the B737 in Senegal's airspace when the two aircraft "crossed".

The Senegalese statement also says the CEIBA B737 was "about to be handed off" to Bamako.

So, it is more likely the collision ocurred in Senegal's airspace, though that is not certain of course at this point.

[JanetFlight]

CEIBA seems to have a nice and steady reputation amongst the "not so famous" African airlines...even its Chief Pilot was recently awarded an FAA compliment:

FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner (http://aviation-business-gazette.com/A46/B21/Pilot-Alejandro-Jose-Regner-Calgary-Alberta-.html)

[Revolutionary]

Janet serious are you?

[ATC Watcher]

grizzled :
I had received this info yesterday and was expecting it plus some more to come officially today, but it did not .So like you I am becoming sceptic now. The position given is more or less at the border, so who was controlling who at that moment is the key, because as you know transfers or comms and control rarely occur exactly at the border .

[Nemrytter]

If the avherald article posted by 400drvr is correct with the position at which the collision occurred then they were probably in IMC, clouds up to at least 40,000ft there and quite a few CBs within a 15km radius.

[B-HKD]

CEIBA seems to have a nice and steady reputation amongst the "not so famous" African airlines...even its Chief Pilot was recently awarded an FAA compliment:

FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner (http://aviation-business-gazette.com/A46/B21/Pilot-Alejandro-Jose-Regner-Calgary-Alberta-.html)

:ugh:

I suggest you read the article before you share it...

FAA compliment? You mean getting his ATP?

The website you linked merely fishes for airmen certificates and then attaches the info to some random article. It is a horrible attempt at clickbait.

Speaking of the steady reputation at CEIBA....

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf

Now dont tell us "CEIBA receives prestigious European Union black list award" :p

The president purchased two 777-200LRs. His personal aircraft operates under the Equatorial Guinea register. The other frame is operated by Portuguese operator White Airways and registered in Portugal, in order to circumvent the EU ban for the Malabo - Madrid flights.



Class act operation!

[JanetFlight]

HKD...i know that much better than you may think..believe me.
BTW...even if you do not agree, my post wasnt so silly at it seems to be.
Peace.:cool:

[grizzled]

ATC Watcher...

Yes, I agree with your points re responsibility for control near FIR boundaries. You got me thinking also about the greater number of incidents that occur near FIR boundaries; for example, occasions when flight plan info wasn't passed, or coordination wasn't completed. In those scenarios, as you know, there is a greater risk of an incident near a boundary.

One curious statement (among many in this case...) was the statement by the Senegalese that they watched the HS-125 until it disappeared from radar at a position about 56 nautical miles west of Dakar (by the Lat and Long given) and that they were surmising the loss of transponder return at that point was due to fuel exhaustion. For an IFR aircraft to run out of fuel about 8 minutes past its destination makes no sense (IFR fuel reserves etc). In this case the flight planned alternate was Bamako, Mali, which makes the “fuel exhaustion” statement even more suspect.

There is of course the possibility that damage to the HS-125 included some kind of fuel tank or fuel line rupture, which could in turn lead to a much reduced range. But that proposition raises other questions that greatly reduce the probability of that scenario (even without considering the famous Mr. Occam…).

The statement by the Senegalese re the transponder of the HS-125 seems to negate the idea that a lack of operating transponder on the HS-125 would have been a factor in the mid-air collision. Whether the B-737 had an operating transponder, we don’t yet know. (We cannot assume an operating transponder, even for a relatively new aircraft, especially in this part of the world.) If both aircraft had operating transponders (on and functional) then why no TCAS alert? Or, if TCAS alert, why no avoidance manoeuver? There is obviously the separate, but related, issue of why no separation between the aircraft? Was separation not being applied, or was separation lost, or? Time will tell…

[chuks]

Janet, what that article says is that it's a good idea to fly with a licensed pilot, and that the names of FAA-licensed pilots are found in that register. That's about it, really. There's nothing "complimentary" to be found in having one's name listed in the register; it simply follows on from gaining an FAA license.

In fact, the Colgan accident pilots were listed there at the time of their accident, so that making any connection between increased safety of flight and this register, as this article does, really is quite silly. The writer seems either to know very little about commercial aviation, or else to want to mislead others who may know even less.

What moved you to quote it?

[Ambient Sheep]

Sarcasm, I suspect.

[JanetFlight]

Ok Chuks, my apologies if i got misunderstood.

[B-HKD]

Ok Chuks, my apologies if i got misunderstood.

What happened Janet flight?? Just a few hours ago you said:



I suggest you read the article before you share it...

FAA compliment? You mean getting his ATP?

The website you linked merely fishes for airmen certificates and then attaches the info to some random article. It is a horrible attempt at clickbait.

Speaking of the steady reputation at CEIBA....

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf

Now dont tell us "CEIBA receives prestigious European Union black list award" :p

The president purchased two 777-200LRs. His personal aircraft operates under the Equatorial Guinea register. The other frame is operated by Portuguese operator White Airways and registered in Portugal, in order to circumvent the EU ban for the Malabo - Madrid flights.



Class act operation!

HKD...i know that much better than you may think..believe me.
BTW...even if you do not agree, my post wasnt so silly at it seems to be.
Peace.:cool:


Which is exactly what I was alluding to :ok:

[AN2 Driver]

Whether the B-737 had an operating transponder, we don’t yet know.

The aircraft was visible on FR24 for most of it's flight so we may safely assume that at least Mode S and ADS-B out worked.

[ATC Watcher]

Grizz; I am expecting some more info today. From what I heard both a/c were on Bamako frequency, the 737 never reported a collision and later used " security" reasons to avoid landing at Cotonou and divert to Malabo"
the HS 125 never replied to ATC calls after crossing the 737 and it was Bamako that alerted Dakar of the radio failure ( not uncommon in this area) The collison occured in non-radar coverage so which aircraft was at the wrong assigned altitude is unknown. (the 737 FDR migt tell us this if it has been secured )

As to the HS125, where did you read/heard Dakar followed them on their transponder ? if yes then they must have been able to follow its altitude , which one, if it was constant, slow or abrupt descent, etc.. did not hear anything about that.

Like you I do not buy the "fuel exhaustion." at 50 or even 100 NM off the coast pas destination. must be more to that.

A malfunctioning or set on OFF or SBY transponder would explain the non-TCAS event. But then again the 737 FDR could tell us if an TCAS TA or RA was issued, if we ever going to see it..

[Teddy Robinson]

without a clearer picture as to how the structure of the 125 may have been compromised it's hard to know.
Certainly, the statutory reserves that should still have been on board overhead destination would deliver the aircraft to point much further to the West.

But given the nature of collisions, it is entirely possible that fuel was being released from damaged tanks or severed fuel lines for the remainder of the flight.

[Luc Lion]

It is just so unfortunate that the diversion from Cotonou to Malabo has erased the CVR recording of the accident-time conversations.
(If I am not mistaken, the B737-800 is equiped with a 120 min CVR).

[ATC Watcher]

But the FDR not, and it would tell us a lot too if it has been secured . Not sure if it has and who will be analyzing it . Or even if this is considered an accident in Equatoriak Guinea.

[Teddy Robinson]

with the EG CAA, unfortunately it does depend on vested interests and "working relationships" for want of a better term.
Personal recent experience is that there are some very competent and experienced individuals operating in a highly politicised environment.

What is released and when should be reviewed through that filter.

De facto, Cieba is not a wholly independently owned concern operating under the full oversight a properly independent authority.

Hopefully the professionals will prevail in this case.

[grizzled]

An update today:


"Late Sep 11th 2015 the French BEA reported that Senegal's Accident Investigation Commission (BEA) requested assistance by the French BEA. Three French investigators have been dispatched to Dakar. The French BEA reported that the HS-125 encountered a mid air collision with a Boeing 737-800 of Ceiba Intercontinental and subsequently crashed into the ocean killing all 7 aboard the HS-125."

[ATC Watcher]

Rumours heard that the HS125 had since a long time an unreliable Mode C transponder , but still kept its RVSM status. Known story in that part of the world unfortunately:hmm:

[testpanel]

Any update??

[akaSylvia]

Surprised this isn't here already, actually.



http://www.jacdec.de/2015/09/08/2015-09-05-possible-mid-air-collision-over-eastern-senegal/



On January 2016, the Senegal Bureau d’enquête et d’Analyse (BEA) reported an update to the current investigation process.

The Hawker HS-125 erroneously was flying at a level 1000 ft above their original clearance. ATC cleared the flight to 34.000 ft. (FL 340) but instead the pilots levelled of at 35.000 ft (FL 350) putting themselves on the same altitude as the opposite flying 737.



Air Traffic Control did not remind the pilots to correct their level nor did the pilots do any altitude changes before the collision took place.


The aircraft was involved in a mid-air collision with a smaller Hawker HS-125 business jet whilst flying over Senegal. The latter aircraft later crashed in sea killing all seven on board.



Ceiba flight CEL 71, a Boeing 737-800, was flying enroute at 35.000 ft, heading southeast on airway UA601, a few minutes east of Tambacounda VOR when it encountered opposite traffic at the same level.


The other aircraft was a Hawker HS-125 (registration 6V-AIM) opertated by Senegalair. This aircraft was on a medical flight from Ouagadougou to Dakar with four passengers (among them a patient) and three crewmembers.
It is understood that no reports about any conflict were transmitted to Bamako air traffic control. The controller later raised alarm when the HS-125 failed to answer to repeated calls.

[Teddy Robinson]

is not being mentioned anywhere.

Flying sub-saharan .. it's a no-go item in my book, never mind what the MEL might say.

[birdspeed]

It's time to adopt random lateral offsets on all airways.

How many more midair collisions will it take!

[Little One]

TCAS
is not being mentioned anywhere.

Flying sub-saharan .. it's a no-go item in my book, never mind what the MEL might say.


This is only effective if the other aircraft are Squawking which means they should have a serviceable Transponder too. All too often there are aircraft flying without a transponder and thus would be blind to your TCAS.

[ATC Watcher]

This case is still surrounded with "confidentiality" which leads to may rumours.
The latest we heard is that the transponder of the HS 125 was known to have "problems" , and even the whole aircraft airworthiness was questioned.

A Crew that took a wrong clearance / wrong read back, and flew at the wrong ALT combined with a U/S transponder could explain the accident. But it opens a lot of questions which obviously both ASECNA and the Senegalese CAA have difficulties with .

@ Teddy Robinson : TCAS is like Tango : you need to be 2 for it to work.

[Old Boeing Driver]

What happened to the 737. Are there any reports bout that plane after landing?

Edit. I found it. Looks like the Hawker hit the winglet. http://www.jacdec.de/2015/09/08/2015-09-05-possible-mid-air-collision-over-eastern-senegal/

[DirtyProp]

This is only effective if the other aircraft are Squawking which means they should have a serviceable Transponder too. All too often there are aircraft flying without a transponder and thus would be blind to your TCAS. The collision happened at FL 350.
Not a biz-jet pilot, but I find it a bit hard to believe that one of them wasn't squawking at that altitude.

[The Ancient Geek]

Welcome to Africa.

[Hotel Tango]

but I find it a bit hard to believe that one of them wasn't squawking at that altitude.

Believe it!

[DirtyProp]

Holy cow....
Thanks, I stand corrected then.

[Teddy Robinson]

yes thanks, I am aware that both aircraft need servicable equipment.

I was some years in an African company where the MEL gave 3 days with it u/s which would have rendered everybody blind ... having operated for one of those three days, the aircraft remained on the ground for the remaining two.
In the procedural only and somewhat "unique"SS environment, it should really be a no go item imho.

Never again :-)

[ATC Watcher]

Teddy: The problem as I understood it in this case , is not about TCAS or the MEL, but the HS125 Transponder or altimetry. If we have to believe the rumours relayed in the Senegalese press, this particular HS125 was not airworthy and should not have been flying.

[grizzled]

ATC Watcher...

Your last post sums up the African civil aviation situation very well: the aircraft was likely not airworthy.

As you and I (and many others) well know, on any given day there are dozens of non-airworthy aircraft flying in Africa, dozens of non-qualified pilots flying, dozens of landings on runways that should be declared unserviceable (and I'm talking about runways at real airports here, not "landing strips"), and dozens of incidents involving inadequate ATC. And for those of you not familiar with Africa, I am not overstating the situation; when I say dozens I mean dozens.

Sadly, the African context means these facts, though well known by regulators (if we can call them that) and even ICAO, are only mentioned after an accident.

It is a terribly irony, but almost a certainty, that no significant improvements will take place until and unless a major international carrier is involved in such an accident. If, for example, the HS125 had hit an Emirates aircraft there would have been incredible pressure for a proper investigation, an effort to locate the HS125 (which there has never been), immense international media scrutiny, and at least a glimmer of hope for some change to the "Wizard of Oz" world that is African civil aviation.

[chuks]

One day we were just doing a hop from Port Harcourt NAF Base to DNPO, Port Harcourt International Airport, under IFR. It's not very far from one place to the other, so that we got a late hand-off from NAF Tower to DNPO Approach.

We were being vectored for a close-in final when something didn't feel right, even though there was nothing on TCAS, so that I asked about any other traffic. It turned out that, yes, there was a Fokker 27 on about a five-miles final, about where we were just positioning!

We did a go-around and then re-positioned behind the F-27 for a normal landing. Once we had parked I went over to speak to the captain on the F-27, who turned out to be a Filipino or an Indonesian or something like that. I told him that we had nearly had a collision there, depending, and that his transponder did not seem to be operating, since we had seen nothing on our TCAS.

That cued a sort of vague look around the F-27's cockpit, to locate the transponder control head looking rather dusty and unused. He explained that, no, they never used it, because there was "no radar" in Nigeria, as there was not.

I mentioned that ICAO had recommended squawking Mode C in any case, so that one might show up on TCAS, which he seemed to take as a not very interesting bit of aviation trivia. As another local crew had once told me, they did not have TCAS themselves, so that there probably did not seem to be much point in squawking.

Welcome to Africa!

[Makaya]

Air Senegal is famous for being a well below standard operator. Its aoc had been suspended. But they got i back at the time of the accident.
The old Hawker had been short of airworthiness certificate for a while too.But got it back, even though it was full of snags.
Captain was neither experienced nor famous to be proficient.
In Flight Broadcast Procedure on 126,9 and Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure are more than a suggestion. They are implelented as written on the charts.

On a hs125-700, if you take off from Ouaga to Dakar, with the prevailing west winds (108 kt few days ago on the same route), it can be more than 3,5 hours.
If you do not transfert the ventral and dorsal tank in the wings (because you are knocked out ?), the aircraft could very well fuel starve shortly after passing DKR.

My Two cents

[akaSylvia]

Is the BEA investigation on this still in progress? Just noticed that there was no one year interim report.

[DaveReidUK]

According to Avherald:

"On Sep 5th 2016 Senegal's BEA released a brief interim statement reporting that the investigation has been almost completed, the final report is currently being drafted and will then be sent out to the parties involved for comments that can be submitted within 60 days. The resulting final report will then be published. The BEA reported that the HS-125 has not been found, the search for the aircraft has been formally suspended, the aircraft thus remains missing. The BEA have analyzed records of flight operations, maintenance and monitoring of both the Ceiba Intercontinental as well as the Air Senegal aircraft as well as enforcement of aircraft and crew certification."

[akaSylvia]

Thanks. I somehow missed that entirely. I shall keep waiting then!

[grizzled]

Regardless of the findings in the final report I must correct at least one misleading statement from the Sengalese BEA. They stated that the "the HS-125 has not been found, the search for the aircraft has been formally suspended".

There was never any search for the HS-125. Never. Not one search aircraft or vessel, not for one minute. Though I'm ever the optimist, I have significant experience in this part of the world, so I don't have much faith in the quality or even the accuracy of the report. I have even less faith that the report and its findings will lead to any significant (and badly needed) change in West Africa.

[recceguy]

All the SAR job over Western Africa (ocean + desert) is done by a lone Breguet Atlantique of the French Navy, positioned at Dakar - and it has been like that since 1960, year of independance. Crew and aircraft are rotated from France....Dozens of successful rescue operations performed since, like the South African Shackleton which crashed in Mauritania years ago.
So everybody flying or sailing there should thank the French taxpayers first (because ALL the local governments there simply don't care about what's happening out at sea)
Now maybe this aircraft at that particular moment was busy somewhere else (Mali ?) or they did try a little bit, or they were not informed in due time.....
You want some change there ? Your money is welcome !

[grizzled]

Hi
recceguy...

My comment is no reflection on the French Navy's contribution to SAR out of Dakar because, in this case, they were not informed or tasked to carry out any search.

Re your suggestion that more money (from outside West Africa) will precipitate change, no it won't.

[recceguy]

Yes, grizz I know
Sorry to have been misunderstood - there was no sarcasm in my post, it was just informative, for fellow aviators (and seamen by the way) to acknowledge how it is in that part of the world

[grizzled]

recceguy

I understand -- and I think we have a lot in common. I'm travelling for the next few days but I'll send you a PM after that.

[grizzled]

MODS: Did you read or understand the subject of this thread before you moved it (after a year) from "Rumours and News" to "Bizjets"? This thread is about a mid-air collision between a scheduled air carrier flight (Ceiba Intercontinental Boeing 737-800, registration 3C-LLY performing flight C2-71 from Dakar, Senegal to Cotonou, Benin) and an HS-125.

If this mid-air collision had occurred over Europe or North America (or anywhere other than Africa) it would certainly remain in "R&N". Cultural bias in the global business of civil aviation?

[JammedStab]

On Feb 19th 2017 The Aviation Herald was able to obtain a copy of the preliminary report in French released by Senegal's BEA on Jan 8th 2016. The BEA reported that C2-71 had been cleared to climb to FL350 at 17:50:54Z, the aircraft was subsequently handed off to Dakar Center. Dakar Center instructed C2-71 to maintain FL350 and report passing GATIL waypoint. At 18:15:32Z C2-71 contacted Dakar Center again, Dakar Center in response handed C2-71 off to the Bamako Control, the crew however reported that they saw traffic very near them in opposite direction, they believed it was a near collision. A minute later the crew advised they believed the opposite traffic had hit their wing. In the meantime Dakar Center tried to raise 6V-AIM, however, did not receive any response. Dakar informed C2-71 that the traffic in opposite direction was 6V-AIM, cleared to maintain FL340, they were unable to contact the aircraft. At 18:19:23Z C2-71 was handed off to Bamako Control, the crew inquired with Bamako Control about the traffic in opposite direction 5 minutes earlier. Bamako advised that the traffic, a Hawker Siddeley HS-25 was supposed to maintain FL340. Bamako tried to call the Hawker several times but did not receive a reply. At 18:24Z Bamako told C2-71 that the Hawker was in the Dakar Control Zone but could not be contacted. C2-71 advised they would file a inflight collision report.

The HS-125 had departed runway 22 of Ouagadougou Airport and at 17:01Z was cleared to climb to FL340. The aircraft was subsequently handed off to Bamako Control. On Bamako the crew estimated waypoint GATIL at 18:10Z and Dakar at 18:54Z. At 17:13Z the crew requested to climb to FL380 due to clouds ahead and was cleared to climb to FL380 at 17:13z. At 17:19z the crew reported turbulence at FL380 and requested to descend or climb advising they had a sick passenger on board. At 17:22Z the crew was cleared to climb to FL400, however, reported at 17:30Z that there was turbulence too and requested to descend to FL340 again. At 17:31z the HS-125 was cleared to descend to FL340 and at 17:55z reported passing waypoint ENINO at FL340. Bamako Control instructed the HS-125 to contact Dakar Control upon passing waypoint GATIL at FL340. At 18:00z the Hawker contacted Dakar Center requesting a deviation of 10nm to the left of the airway to avoid bad weather. Dakar instructed the aircraft to maintain FL340 and set transponder to 5040. ATC requested the HS-125 to confirm they were maintaining FL340, the crew confirmed, then the crew requested ATC to confirm their transponder code 5040, ATC repeated transponder code 5040. This proved to to be the last radio contact with the aircraft, the crew did not respond to any further radio calls anymore. The aircraft appeared on Dakar's radar screen at FL350 at 18:22Z showing the transponder code 5004 (instead of 5040). At 19:01Z the aircraft overflew Dakar VOR at FL350 and continued on a track of 293 degrees. At 19:07Z the radar shows the aircraft began to descend and turned right. A short time later the aircraft descended through FL126 and disappeared from radar screen about 59nm from Dakar VOR at approximate position N14.9789 W18.4703.

The HS-125 was flown by a captain (59, CPL, 7,685 hours total, 5,500 hours in command) and a first officer (35, CPL, 3,339 hours total). The aircraft had accumulated 13,279 flight hours in 11,877 flight cycles.

The Boeing 737-800 was flown by a captain (45, ATPL), a second captain (45, ATPL) and a first officer (33, 585 hours total). The aircraft had accumulated 1,568 flight hours in 1,761 flight cycles.

The HS-125 has not been found to date, the BEA reported. Part of the right winglet was missing from the Boeing, the part has not been found.

The BEA reported that according to weather reported there were thunderstorms and low clouds present in the vicinity of the FIR boundary between Senegal (Dakar) and Mali (Bamako). However, there was no problem of visibility at the cruise levels.

The flight data and cockpit voice recorders of the Boeing 737 were read out normally by the BEA France, representatives of BEA Senegal, representatives of the CAA Equatorial Guinea and the operator were present. The flight data recorder contained 90 hours of flight storing 1200 parameters. The cockpit recorder contained 124 minutes of flight, the recording did not include the actual event. The FDR revealed the Boeing 737 was enroute at FL350 with autopilot engaged. TCAS was operative and in good condition (editorial note: the report does not mention a TCAS traffic or resolution advisory nor does the report mention that no advisory was generated).

Accident: Ceiba Intercontinental B738 over Senegal on Sep 5th 2015, midair collision with ambulance jet (http://avherald.com/h?article=48c031e2)

[MartinAOA]

Update: Final report in French

Faulty altimeters on 6V-AIM. Previous flights deviated from assigned altitudes as well. The maintenance engineer authorized to overview maintenance and sign the aircraft with its defective altimeters airworthy...

http://avherald.com/h?article=48c031e2/0001&opt=0

[Trim Stab]

Holy cow....
Thanks, I stand corrected then.

Usually it is to avoid paying overflight fees. There is very little cooperation or communication between African states. A (say) Guinean operator who wants to fly to (say) Equatorial Guinea would have to fly across several small African states, most of them using English rather than French. The work involved in getting overflight agreements is substantial and the chances of getting it in a reasonable time frame nil. So easier just to fly with the transponder off and not talk to anybody on the radio, and saves money. That's a win-win by African logic.