Beware of Dodgy Fare & Ticketing Scams

[bealine]

One airline at LGW has recently taken a very firm stance with a passenger using "Back to Back" tickets. The very essence of the "Saturday Night Stopover" ruling on excursion tickets was to ensure that affordable price travel was available on "off-peak" services.

Regular Business Travellers have used the "up portion" of this week's ticket to travel on a Monday, and the "down portion" of last week's ticket for the return on Friday, therefore breaking the "must stopover Saturday night" rule.

Another ticket was issued in India and the fare basis applies to Indian passport holders only. (The reason being that most ordinary people from India would be unable to travel unless it was heavily subsidised). The traveller was non-Indian.

The airline in question has chosen to interpret this as a criminal offence - "Uttering a false document" and is pressing charges against the travellers who presented the tickets - even though their employer purchased the documents! Apparently under British Law, ignorance of the law is no defence.

Even if charges are subsequently dropped, what a worry for those concerned.

Business Travellers beware - there are enough low fares out there in the market-place without resorting to dishonesty!

[Alpha Leader]

Interesting point about the special "Indian passport holder" fare.

Given that the middle class in India comprises about 80 million people (i.e. more than the entire population of the UK), one wonders whether anyone wishing to avail of this fare is subjected to a means test........

Sadly, positive discrimination is well and alive all over Asia.....withness, for instance, the two-tier pricing for admission to tourist spots (including the Royal Palace) in Thailand.

[Far canal]

Which airline is it? I hope it all backfires on them and the resulting bad publicity is reflected in thier declining passenger numbers.

The ticket issuer must have some responsibility in this - if the tickets are for Indians only then surely they must have a responsibility to check for citizenship.

Very high handed of the airline to say the least.

Ticket prices in HK are always higher than in neighbouring countries so to some extent it encourages people to look for ways around the system. Why should I pay more for a ticket because I live in HK than someone who lives in Bangkok?

[christep]

Far Canal,

The HK ticket prices are indeed a pain - as are the London ones. Consequently I buy more or less all my long haul (OneWorld)tickets either in Paris or Taipei. As far as I know I am not breaking any rules - if the airlines make it substantially cheaper to fly HKG-TPE-HKG-LHR than HKG-LHR then if it is worth 4 hours of my time to save the difference then I can't see that they can formulate their fares in such a way that they can stop this happening.

It is rare that ticket pricing is linked to citizenship, although occasionally I have seen residence requirements - for example on the "OneWorld Visit Europe" fares which they will only sell to residents (not just citizens) of non-European countries and only in conjunction with intercontinental travel to Europe bought in the country of residence. It's probably still cheaper to fly to Taipei!

[Alpha Leader]

Far Canal:

Often, flying outbound on the local "flag" carrier is the most expensive option. Example: you can fly HKG-BKK-HKG on TG for around HK$2,300. The opposite routing, i.e. BKK-HKG-vv. will set you back around HK$2,700.

If you're a frequent traveller on this route, try out CI (around HK$1,400 HKG-BKK-HGK), GF or EK.

I'm also wondering how citizenship-based ticket prices square with all the anti-discrimination laws that have sprung up worldwide recently.

[DistantRumble]

There is an excellent book called 'How to Fly Cheaper' by Hugo J. van Reisen that explains all these and other rules, including these where to buy your ticket cheaper (countries etc). A bit old now but still well worth a read for long haul ticketing.

His slagging of KLM is hilarious and worth it for that alone, but it's understandable since he's Dutch. (the book's in english tho).

[PAXboy]

Alpha Leader, the same applies to South Africa. It is cheaper for a ticket to be initiated in JNB or CPT than LHR.

This applies despite the Rand being at 15 to the Pound (today)!!! Basically, the carriers know that when the South Africans get to the UK or Europe, it will be very expensive for them, so they lower their fares. Since the reverse is true, they raise 'our' fares accordingly.

There was also very careful management of the duopoly by the South African government (old and new) and even the arrival of Virgin Atlantic on the route has not made a massive difference in prices. The route is very busy, for example, on a Friday night there are five 747 (300s + 400s) departing from BOTH LHR and JNB from the three carriers.

When VS started on the route, they used A340 but now run the B744 but prices remain much higher than for the comprable distance, which is LHR - SFO/LAX.

End of rant, due to family and friends being in South Africa and needing to go there this December (peak season) for a family wedding. It will be wonderful but the price won't be!

[Alpha Leader]

PAXboy:

Hope you enjoy your forthcoming trip :)

Although not truly justifiable, there's always been attempts by carriers to price their tickets according to local purchasing power (although in Asia, it's often the foreign carriers in a particular market that offer such deals, rather than the local flag carrier).

I've got no issue with such deals, as they are open to all comers in that country. The problem with the "Indian nationals" only deal as described by bealine is that it is clearly discriminatory based on nationality.

[PAXboy]

Thanks, AL.

I agree about the European carriers and I used SN a few times, as did others in my family. What has amazed me is the way that the route has held up since 9/11.

With low air fares being quoted everywhere last Nove/Dec, I decided that I might pop home for the hols. Demand was so strong that carriers were reducing costs to everywhere in the world EXCEPT South Africa! Everything was booked solid.

The only reason I got a flight was that LH had taken some A340s off North Atlantic destinations and opened a new route of Munich (MUC) to JNB. I got on that using my FFMs.

Friends arrived from JNB last weekend. They travelled SAA 747 and said it was full. As mentioned above, on Friday evenings, five 747s leave both JNB and LHR simultaneously!!

Back on thread ... I have not heard of nationality restrictions before. Does not sound like a good idea.

[curmudgeon]

Also found discriminatory ticket pricing on JAL. Flying AMS - NRT - AMS, on tickets purchased in Amsterdam, it was cheaper for Japanese nationals.

cur

[knobbygb]

On the other point of back-to-back tickets, I understand that this is against the "spirit" of the rules, i.e., the Saturday night stopover, but surely it is not a criminal offence? After all, the passanger has done nothing dishonest. He's not forged any documents or lied about the dates and times of the journey he is making or told the airline anything else untrue. It's clear from their reservation systems what the person is doing if they care to look. Surely fraud must involve the passenger intentianally telling some kind of lie, or witholding some information, not merely the utilization of a loophole.

After all, the passanger, IS making a Saturday night stopover, it just happens to be at the city they live in, not the one they work in!

I would have thought that the very worst the airline could do is to deny them travel, and even then, I would have expected them to be entitled to a refund. They could perhaps ban them from travelling in future, but prosecute? I'd be very interested to hear the outcome of that. Are there any legal precidents?

[DistantRumble]

One of the biggest cans of worms of all.

and back-to-back. sat night stays hidden cities etc.

EU rulings are slowly taking hold but you can find the airline getting VERY snotty since it's lost revenue - I believe the US is more stringent on this.



here's an intro

http://www.llrx.com/features/airlinetickets.htm

[gofer]

My travel agent has in the past proposed back to back's - they get our corporate business based on what they save us !!!! So their creative thinking is the order of the day.

They have also, at times, refused to sell me back to back's and have told me to use 2 seperate travel agents - as that way they have no responsibility and it is purely "my liability and risk". They won't give me that in writing, as you can imagine.

The trick that I have used on back to backs, after an airline did make some loud noises and cancelled my bookings (but refunded the unused) is so simple that it isn't illegal. Use 2 different airlines. There are usually 2, sometimes more, on most routes and there is nothing either of them can do to you, because you are not breaking your agreement with either one of them as long as you finish one ticket before your buy its replacement.

Funny my travel agent does'nt even have a problem with that any more he offers it as a service to us now.

Try this for size
On the magnetic coupon tickets - flying out of sequence after sector 1......... so far no problems and on the paperwork I can't find where it says that this is illegal - on handwritten tickets it was there in the fine print above ....

Smart cities
As you mention Alpha Leader, BKK is cheaper - way cheaper. Didn't realise that Taipei could also get close - thanks! Shame the direct Macau to Brussels is no longer ....

Going to Europe from HK very often - I always buy my ticket in either BKK or in Europe. When buying in Europe I always try to use either the local carriers promotional fare (which can legally be limited to 'local residents' as opposed to a nationality - close to the old cabotage fares that existed between a country and its colonies) or use a 'foreign' airline - as most dump on their neighbours (AF or LH in Switzerland - KL in Germany or Belgium - etc.).

Cheapest place in Europe, by far, used to be Athens (well Greece), not sure how this has changed with the Euro, but it used to provide 3 or 4 short holidays a year when I lived in Europe, happily paid for by my employer as he was saving close to 50% compared with tickets bought elsewhere !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally for all you Flyoholics

If you need to go lots of places and your fare is similar to a LHR-TYO or a HKG-East Coast - it is always cheaper to get a RTW fare (Round The World) - Most groupings do it - I personally find the Star Alliance the most useful as they fly to so many places with so many partners (shame about Ansett)

So for less than a HKG - GSO return, which was just one of the destinations needed - I used the HKG-BKK leg of a return to Europe (the rest is still open) and got an RTW starting in BKK at 70% of the HKG-GSO fare - but it went on to Sao Paulo, LHR, Germany, Switzerland, SIN, SYD, SIN (with no stopover), HKG, BKK. Total saving - free vacation in Europe for me and a HKG-Sao-Paulo return and an HKG-Australia - total cost paid by this routing around a third of the alternative 3 tickets ! Oh yes and by buying a SIN-HGK-SIN, I managed to get back to the office for a few days before going to Aussie.

Rules are - you can pass through a point as often as needed, but only stop-over once. (A stopover is more than 23h and 59 minutes unless it is longer to the Star Alliances next flight.... You must go over Pacific and Atlantic in the same direction and you start and finish at the same place, which can not be a stopover (possibly also not a connecting pass-thru - but the experts differ there). Re-routing when underway is usually a no-go or a very expensive option but nothing prohibits you having multiple open segments on multiple RTW's at the same time ! Now there is a though to please many a traveller.

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Plan and thou shalt succeed !

[christep]

For OWE (the One World Explorer round the world tickets) I have just discovered this site, which includes a spreadsheet which will show you the prices in any currency you chose for OWE tickets issued in every country where there is a price - the differences are dramatic!

http://members.shaw.ca/fewmiles/oneworld/

(You have to get the currency conversion from another website - there are full instructions in the spreadsheet.)

Gibraltar & Slovakia look like good places to buy OWEs in Europe, South Africa is the cheapest for many types.