Thor Has Arrived

[Stationair8]

Channel 9 showing footage of C130 Hercules "Thor", NSW Rural Fire Brigades newest weapon for the summer fire season.

Couldn't recognise the airport where the footage was filmed.

[Squawk7700]

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc75/thor.jpg

.............

[ruddegar]

Has this aircraft been here before? Is it the same one brought over to WA for the Northcliffe/Boddington fires?

[Hydromet]

I think the last one here was called "Hercules".

[gerry111]

Their DC-10 is coming to RAAF Richmond too. :)

[red_dirt]

I'm sorry but I seem to be one of the VERY few that don't support the DC10 etc coming here at such a high cost.

Aerial firefighting is a must yes but there are much more operationally effective and cost effective "systems" out there

[Wunwing]

So we are leasing a Herc and basing it at the same airport that the RAAF is disposing of much later models Hercs from????

As far as the DC10, what is its turnaround time and how many airports in NSW can it operate from? Surely 3 or 4 X CV580s, L188s or a few Bae 146 would be far more flexible to cover the entire State?

To me this looks like desperation due to no long term planning on the part of the NSW Govt or massive window dressing?

Wunwing

[Aussie Bob]

I'm sorry but I seem to be one of the VERY few that don't support the DC10 etc coming here at such a high cost

Please correct me if I am wrong but are these aircraft on the Australian Register? I am guessing under our "rules" it would be difficult to get one up and away with VH rego?

[red_dirt]

Actually Aussie Bob it has nothing to do with the VH rego. The type certificates are the same here as they are in the U.S. but of course nobody has a C130 on their AOC here which does make it hard but regardless of that fact, my opinion wouldn't change if someone did have a spare C130, DC10 or similar in Australia in an Australian AOC.

For starters, the turn around time that's being advertised is not really accurate and if it's doing a job at say Broken Hill for example (not really sure if there is much to burn there though) then we're is it going to land and fill up. The way we currently conduct aerial firefighting is more than adequate operationally. We don't need to add to the tax payers back pocket a more expensive, complicated system and in a lot of ways inferior, when we have a perfectly working system already.

The smaller fixed with and rotary fleet we contract now is more than adequate and cost effective.

[Wunwing]

It shouldn't be too hard to register a C130 here as it would not be first of type on the VH rego. There was one operating here in the 80s as a freighter under the Cargomasters brand.
Hence my comments about the C130 being at the same airport as the RAAF has or is disposing of their C130 Hs which would be a more modern version of the Coulson aircraft.
I think that the jury is out on the C130 but the DC10???
Wunwing

[ruddegar]

red_dirt I've seen the C130 firefighting aircraft in use - they are mainly used to lay large swathes of fire retardant as a way of hemming fires in and are extremely effective in this role, it's something that the air tractors can't do and weren't designed for, at least not on this scale. The Air Tractors simply cannot deal with fires the size that a DC10 or C130 can and aren't able to effectively prevent fire movement along a huge frontline - allowing stretched ground crews to be deployed more effectively. Don't get me wrong the Air Tractors & choppers do a fantastic job but there's some roles which they can't fill and the C130 and DC10 should be welcome additions to any firefighting fleet!

[tail wheel]

It shouldn't be too hard to register a C130 here as it would not be first of type on the VH rego. There was one operating here in the 80s as a freighter under the Cargomasters brand.

Too hard? Almost impossible unless you have money and a lot of time to burn. The cost to convert a military C130 for civilian registration in Australia is horrific. I suspect the only way to civil operate a C130 on aerial fire fighting in Australia would be to register in the USA.

[red_dirt]

Rudd

I understand what you are saying I too have seen them work both from the ground and in the air. look at the cost v's operational outcome, it's mathematically ludicrous.

[ruddegar]

Guess it depends where they're used - when you're talking fires with perimeters of hundreds of kilometres the cost/benefit of being able to bolster a couple kilometres of fire-front near a township that's under threat might start to swing back in their favour? Impressive piece of kit anyway.

[gerry111]

I agree with ruddegar. But disagree with red dirt.

The Herc and DC-10 are primarily fire retardant bombers to protect those living in the Blue Mountains, this summer. They've proven highly effective in doing that sort of thing overseas.


For those that have experienced the absolute fear of a ferocious bushfire up very close*, I'm rather happy for a government to spend around $10 million to help.


* Ash Wednesday bushfires in 1983 in the Adelaide Hills. My parents' home was saved only by retardant bombing by helicopters.

[Cuban Eight]

Perhaps a silly question BUT if this capability really is so crucial for Australia that we need to bring in foreign machines & crews annually, would it be at all feasible for the RAAF to convert and operate one or two otherwise to-be-retired airframes as fire fighters?

I imagine there would be bucket loads of red tape and logistical hurdles to overcome but surely this could fall under the umbrella of RAAF operations (after all, there are already RAAF firefighters!)?? The machines and crews could then be available for all of Australia. Likely very costly but there'd be endless capability and highly trained crews.

Ah if only the world worked as easily as our imagination!! :(

[Wunwing]

Exactly my point C8.
If they were on the civil register they could be leased to the US or Canada in summer. The same way as some of the heavy helos move between US and Australia now.

While I accept TW point about the difficulty of placing ex RAAF aircraft on the VH register, it has happened before. DC3s come to mind and it would be Govt policy to do the transfer.Maybe even put them on the N register where there are already civil Hercs such as Thor etc ?

The current random leases dont have any certainty and given the shortage of modern aircraft in this duty in the US means that to a degree each season will be ad hoc in aircraft availability in Australia.

Wunwing

[Capt Fathom]

would it be at all feasible for the RAAF to convert and operate one or two otherwise to-be-retired airframes as fire fighters?

Logistics!

The RAAF crews will need to be trained. Where? In the USA? How many U.S. fire seasons would that take?

And what about recency. I would imagine it's something you would need to do constantly.

It's not something you just go out and do every 6 months or 12 months!

Leave it to the experts!

[Wunwing]

We seem to go through this every couple of summers.
We have a really bad fire season where we need large aircraft but dont have any ,then we bring out the big guns which appear the year we dont need them. Then we dont have them again because we didnt need them last year and repeat the cycle.

It seems to me that large aircraft should be under the Feds similar to the French Civile and Securite. That way they can move between states as needed and can also be used for floods, famine,pestilance etc rather than RAAF aircraft. It seems to work in the rest of the World but we are somehow different??

What is need in this case is a method of consistency for the ground and airborne fire fighters.This ad hoc method is not working and having been on the ground when the Springwood fires started, the small aircraft limited attack that occurred in the first hour acheived nothing whereas a couple of Hercs from Richmond would have extinguished it even as the red trucks tried to get through the traffic gridlock on Hawkesbury Road.
Wunwing

[ruddegar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Airborne_FireFighting_System

That exists, so it is possible. Lays retardant 18 metres wide and a quarter mile long. Impressive.

[Cuban Eight]

Logistics!

The RAAF crews will need to be trained. Where? In the USA? How many U.S. fire seasons would that take?

Absolutely, there's no doubt the logistics of crew proficiency and funding would nip the idea in the bud very quickly but it is certainly not unprecedented for ADF aircrews to receive training in the US.

Leave it to the experts!

My point exactly. If we bit the bullet and invested in fostering our own experts, wouldn't we benefit in the future? Outsourcing can fill gaps in capability but when there's an ongoing demand such as this, perhaps we need to rethink our strategy. As Wunwing suggests, a federally funded, homegrown solution is a lovely thing to ponder.

[Bushfiva]

Lays retardant 18 metres wide

Having no idea about fire barriers, how wide should a retardant-based barrier be? I assume it's very different for grass and forest.

[red_dirt]

Having no idea about fire barriers, how wide should a retardant-based barrier be? I assume it's very different for grass and forest.

It's not an exact science and it's subject to a range of variables and the figures being quoted by the spin Drs are best case I can assure you.