View Full Version : 5200 Russian deaths and injuries in the Ukraine.
Sobering, interesting.
Russia Inadvertently Posts Its Casualties In Ukraine: 2,000 Deaths, 3,200 Disabled (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/08/25/kremlin-censors-rush-to-erase-inadvertent-release-of-russian-casualties-in-east-ukraine/)
AreOut
26th Aug 2015, 10:44
no way they could hide so many, even USSR in era without Internet would have troubles hiding so many casualties (widely dispersed)
no way they could hide so many, even USSR in era without Internet would have troubles hiding so many casualties (widely dispersed)
I disagree. And the linked article describes clearly how Putin accomplishes this.
Russian president Vladimir Putin (http://www.forbes.com/profile/vladimir-putin/) has decreed (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/28/vladimir-putin-declares-all-russian-military-deaths-state-secrets) that all Russian casualties “in peacetime” be a state secret. In addition to criminal charges arising from divulging state secrets, families risk (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine) losing pensions and lump-sum payments if they reveal that their sons were killed in Ukraine. Mothers of soldiers’ associations have been branded (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/08/russian-ngo-branded-foreign-agent-after-reporting-russian-military-action-ukraine/) “foreign agents” for collecting data on Russian casualties. Dissident Boris Nemtsov was murdered shortly before completing his study of Russian casualties (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/boris-nemtsovs-report-counts-hundreds-of-russian-dead-in-ukraine/520628.html) in Ukraine. Russian civil rights organizations, working against the fog of official resistance, could confirm only several hundred (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/12/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-report-idUSKBN0NX0WA20150512) battlefield deaths.
Lonewolf_50
26th Aug 2015, 13:20
500 tanks, 400 artillery systems and up to 950 military armoured vehicles to pro-Russian rebels I find this number to be a bit eye opening, in terms of the claim reported in the caption to the picture with the article. It doesn't say over what time period, but that's a heck of a lot of military hardware right there, and a bear to support from the logistic side.
air pig
26th Aug 2015, 17:13
Ken V,
Russian president Vladimir Putin has decreed that all Russian casualties “in peacetime” be a state secret. In addition to criminal charges arising from divulging state secrets, families risk losing pensions and lump-sum payments if they reveal that their sons were killed in Ukraine. Mothers of soldiers’ associations have been branded “foreign agents” for collecting data on Russian casualties. Dissident Boris Nemtsov was murdered shortly before completing his study of Russian casualties in Ukraine. Russian civil rights organizations, working against the fog of official resistance, could confirm only several hundred battlefield deaths.
Read any of the books about BRIXMIS and there activities in East Germany during the Cold War. They used to rummage around waste dumps outside military hospitals during the time the Russians were in Afghanistan finding all sort of evidence about what weapons were used there. The Russians used to evacuate their injured into the DDR before they were sent back home. far less evidence of what was happening.
Read any of the books about BRIXMIS and there activities in East Germany during the Cold War. They used to rummage around waste dumps outside military hospitals during the time the Russians were in Afghanistan finding all sort of evidence about what weapons were used there. The Russians used to evacuate their injured into the DDR before they were sent back home. far less evidence of what was happening.
Indeed. The Soviets before and the Russians now have LOTS of experience covering their tracks from their own citizens. To suggest that is impossible in the case of Ukraine (as AreOut did) is laughable.
AreOut
27th Aug 2015, 17:34
those are huge numbers, first of all if Russia was to engage so many soldiers they would do all sorts of reconnaisance (satellite mostly) and you would see ratios close to 10:1 (ukrainian vs russian soldiers)
russian army is currently superior to ukrainian on all fronts and they have insiders in Ukraine, with 2000 soldiers (+ tech&logistics) they would come to Kiev in a matter of days
those are huge numbers, first of all if Russia was to engage so many soldiers.... The vast majority of those "soldiers" would be support personnel not involved in actual fighting. And while there is no doubt that Russia could over run Ukraine in a matter of days if that's what they wanted, clearly that's NOT what they want. They are, for now, content in simply taking the Eastern portion of Ukraine. And the recent accidentally revealed data shows they are suffering serious casualties while doing that. And the government is using extraordinary (but so far effective) measures to hide that fact from its own citizens.
Lonewolf_50
27th Aug 2015, 19:34
The vast majority of those "soldiers" would be support personnel not involved in actual fighting. And while there is no doubt that Russia could over run Ukraine in a matter of days if that's what they wanted, clearly that's NOT what they want. They are, for now, content in simply taking the Eastern portion of Ukraine. And the recent accidentally revealed data shows they are suffering serious casualties while doing that. And the government is using extraordinary (but so far effective) measures to hide that fact from its own citizens.
One wonders if those stats include folks who live in Ukraine but self identify as Russian? :confused:
Stats only cover compensation paid to serving members of the Russian military injured during active duty. Those captured/injured and stated by the Russian government to be on "leave" would not be eligible.
AreOut
27th Aug 2015, 20:13
Human Rights Watch has recently published the total death toll (including civilians rebels and ukrainian soldiers) which is around 6400 (lets say its 7-8000 today)
no way in hell quarter of those could be russian soldiers
Ukraine Conflict Death Toll Surpasses 6,400 Amid New Evidence Of Russian Military Involvement (http://www.ibtimes.com/ukraine-conflict-death-toll-surpasses-6400-amid-new-evidence-russian-military-1946761)
if I had to tell a rough estimate it would be anywhere from 20-200 but 2000 just no way
rh200
27th Aug 2015, 23:24
One has to keep in mind the conditions the "non Russian" soldiers are operating under. In effect they don't have the logistical and tactical support they should have in normal open warfare.
There have been a few times where the Russian side had their @rses handed to them on a platter until the Ukrainian air cover was neutralized.
In effect it has made it into an old fashioned sh!t fight that has become a war of attrition. The problem is, the Russians have and unlimited trickle supply of personnel and weapons. The trick for the Russians is to keep it low level enough, that they can keep clandestine logistics running and the death toll at a manageable level.
Whilst the Ukrainians may have some volunteers, but no real supply of weapons and people. A limited supply of economic aid and unlimited supply of new uniforms and MRE's. Least they die with new uniforms and full bellys.:sad:
AreOut
28th Aug 2015, 08:59
they do have support, I believe they are feeding them with satellite data on ukrainian positions, the same way USA does(or did at least) with anti-Assad opposition to help them locate Assad troops
peter we
28th Aug 2015, 18:05
Human Rights Watch has recently published the total death toll (including civilians rebels and ukrainian soldiers) which is around 6400 (lets say its 7-8000 today)
no way in hell quarter of those could be russian soldiers
Ukraine Conflict Death Toll Surpasses 6,400 Amid New Evidence Of Russian Military Involvement
if I had to tell a rough estimate it would be anywhere from 20-200 but 2000 just no way
Those figures don't include Russian deaths because they have Never given much details about casulties. If you read the article its says it is a guess and the figure is much higher.
Indeed DPR/LPR leaders has stated that the death toll is horrendouly high on both sides, far higher than the estimates.
Russian combat forces have been put at 60% according to Russians who were involved and as reported in Russian media. Local farmers etc are mainly used as guards at checkpoint and to talk to the media. The hard fighting is doen by Russian professionals of various types.
Ukrainians may have some volunteers, but no real supply of weapons and people. A limited supply of economic aid and unlimited supply of new uniforms and MRE's. Least they die with new uniforms and full bellys.
They are short of food and uniforms
rh200
28th Aug 2015, 22:27
They are short of food and uniforms
Damm, we are really stuffed, I was under the impression that was the only official aid we where allowed to give.
If Obama can't even carry though with that, the Ukrainians are really done for. I would suggest they give up now and reassert their loyalty to Putin.:ugh:
AreOut
29th Aug 2015, 16:48
"Russian combat forces have been put at 60% according to Russians who were involved and as reported in Russian media. Local farmers etc are mainly used as guards at checkpoint and to talk to the media. The hard fighting is doen by Russian professionals of various types."
I follow that conflict closely and have to disagree, there are many volunteers from all over the world fighting for both sides, also it's far cheaper for Russia to pay some privateer than lose its own trained soldier as the price of training is not low even there.
Russian soldiers in the conflict are mostly for logistics and training domestic troops.
peter we
30th Aug 2015, 07:23
Alexander Borodai, the Russian, former 'Prime Minister' of the DNR:
The new Union of Donbass Volunteers will be for "all of those who took part in defending Donbass in one way or another. Everyone who was there," Borodai said.
"They all need help, we need to help them. For that we need to unite," said the former self-proclaimed prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic.
He estimated that "between 30,00 and 50,000 Russian volunteers" fought in eastern Ukraine.
Former Ukraine rebel head starts support group for Russian fighters (http://news.yahoo.com/former-ukraine-rebel-head-starts-support-group-russian-170701239.html)
In your mother tongue
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2015/08/27/n_7519115.shtml
Ukraine has 20 more Russian servicemen (i.e serving) who will be tried for terrorism in the near future. Naturally they will be dissmissed as 'volunteers'