Beware of Pilot assist college

[puma2]

I like many other Wannabes have been researching the training schools and what we have to do and what they (the schools) offer. I saw the advert for pilot assist and liked what I read. I decided to call them and thats when it all went a little pear shaped. I was put through to the Student services director" and initially I was quite impressed with what he had to say, but them little inconsistancies started to creap in. When I questioned them he started to go all over the place. One area he told me I would need far more hours than I knew I needed, thats going to cost an extra £5-6000 (worried), but he did say that they could get me a CDL and a bank loan to cover it.
When I asked him about the flying he said they use Pan Am, but when I went to the seminar, they said EFT. When I again asked why they don't use EFT any more he launched into what was a total elimination of EFT (EFT you guys have certainly upset him). These are just a few points, but with all the other wrong info, I am now looking at Bristol (sorry pilot assist, you had your chance).
So, if you call them, make sure they tell you the truth. It may have been just a bad day but if he is telling this to all the people who call, then it is worrying.
I will say tho, I am tempted by their airline prep course and at the seminar the other staff were pretty switched on, including Lynn Clark

[sydneyc]

puma2,

I sort of agree with you re Pilot Assist, but for different reasons. I think their change of stance re EFT is due to EFT taking a large group of airline sponsored students recently. The result is Pilot Assist's students being marginalised. I think alot of their inconsistencies at present are due to them being a new business. That's not an excuse by any means and I certainly won't be going near them.

Sounds like you attended the same seminar as me - made me laugh as one the those running it was banging on about the importance of professionalism and attention to detail in a future career with the airlines and all the time there were three spelling mistakes in his overhead presentation slide! I was sorely tempted to ask if they were deliberate mistakes but thought better of it as he was ex-Army!
sydneyc

[Lightning ace]

Been to the seminar also. Some good and bad points about them I think.
Yes the distance learning material looks good, but then it is just bought in from pooleys.
I too was not that happy about the lack of a definate answer about who they would be using for the flying, as they don't do any themselves, or even a definate on the mcc.
Yes the interview prep etc. 'looks' good. but no student has even got to the cpl / ir flying stage yet. So no track record.
They do talk about their 'airline contacts', although will not name them, other than lyne clark from 'go. Who also happens to be the Uk rep for PanAm flight training USA ???

So I have chosen a ground school with a proved track record (PPSC) and a FTO who actually do the flying and very well (PAT)

I wish all new companies well, but cant see the value in using middle men. :confused:

[a.mused]

Sorry, but my view of Pilot Assist was not good either. I sat their web-site test and then received by e-mail "personalised" advice which had several silly little errors (like telling me that I needed to pass the RAF Cranwell aptitude tests despite the fact that I passed it fot test-in-advance, sixth form scholarship, entry to the RAF, etc). My 'personal' plan didnot factor in my 200+hours and all in all I saw nothing to inspire me to part with my very hard eanred cash. Good idea though (if they can get it to work!)

[sydneyc]

It's a shame these guys have not got their act together. As everyone has said, the idea is a good one, but the execution at present is poor. I too have received non-personal and completely irrelevent info re future training which does not inspire confidence. And I too am not convinced by their supposed airline contacts. Maybe in a few years they will be a good operation.

[kangy]

Yes, well what can I say?!
Firstly, I am a student with Pilot Assist College at the moment and here is an unbiased veiw of things!
Firstly as far as Puma2 is concerned, the words sour grapes come to mind.... am I right? secondly, PAC used to use EFT but no longer do so as it is in the students best interests. As far as I know, PanAm is the flight school PAC is associated with.
Yes they are a new company with no proven track record at the moment, but before I parted with my money I thought to myself "hell this route of training is gonna cost me just the same as anywhere else, but by the sounds of it I might just get a job outta it - so what have I lost?!" I've been going through some of the airline prep whilst going through my ATPL's and it sure does open your eyes how much more there is to go after getting all your licenses and qualifications!

The one thing I will say about PAC, I've looked at all the other training providers in the country, but one thing stood out with PAC - they're honest. They don't try and rip you off, just give you the best chance they can to get you into a right hand seat which is where we all want to be isn't it?

[itchy kitchin]

I am just starting out with PAC and i would like to say that I have been treated with honesty and respect by all at the college. Just because there are minor things you pick up on on a telephone call or an email(not always reliable anyway) there is no need to "vent spleen" on a public forum like this. I went to one of their seminars- and to be honest i thought it was going to be a sales pitch for the college. It wasn't. I can say that it was undoubtedly the best tenner i have ever spent for unbiased advice. I can wholeheartedly recommend them for that. As for the training? As PAC told me, look around and see what's best for you. I won't let sour grapes merchants influence my decisions.

Thats all shveetie!

[gazelle507]

Excellent. Go get them Dee. :D

[itchy kitchin]

Gazelle, Is that you Intersting? Or Sumo?
but my thoughts exactly! :D :D :D

[kangy]

hey guys,
Thanx for the support, PAC is a young company still finding its feet...... but they must be doing something right with their training ethos, the likes of OATS & C/air have taken notice to the point that OATS have started GAPAN tests & seminars too .... hmmmm, bit of a coincidence methinks! therefore, can you really blame them for keeping contacts & strategies close to their chest?
thankfully there are more people out there that see them for their honesty & integrety than the 'sour grape merchants' :D

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Bombay B Bandit ]

[drunkflyer]

No its not me, Hugh Heffner, I would hazard a guess at Disco Davis, could be wrong though!

Thoroughly agree with Bombay's post though, couldn't have put it better myself.

:p :cool: :D

[itchy kitchin]

Hugh Heffner says:
Come round to the pad sometime... Ms April is just dying to meet you.
Come in ,Have a drink, see the ladies...

... Does your mum know what you get up to?

P.S. Drunk Flyer, Have checklists for you... :cool:

[312928]

What is this? A PAC bulletin board?
Go and finish your PPLs at EGSF there's a good bunch of kiddies.

[itchy kitchin]

Dear Beverly Hills312928 (or whatever)
I see from your profile you are a PPL and ATPL student.

"Go and finish PPLs...like a good bunch of kiddies"

Don't make assumptions. They're wrong.
Don't put yourself above others.
Get a life shveetie. :rolleyes:

[drunkflyer]

312928,

I see from your profile you list your occupation as a Pilot, may I be the first to congratulate you on your position as the worlds first Commercial C150/152 Pilot with a PPL, excellent effort old chap, where do you work and do they need any more Pilots as I'm sure I can put my FAA CPL/IR and JAA PPL to good use! :D :rolleyes:

[kangy]

Oh dear,
90218 or whatever, funnily enough, I am also an ATPL student, after completeing both FAA & JAA licences.... not just a little snotty nosed kid pre solo!
& anyways guys, meeeeeow! put those claws away! :D

[312928]

Isn't it ironic? Don't you think?

[Lightning ace]

To get back to the actual topic children.
My point of complaint about pilot assist. Was that they are simply middle men.
One of the key point they where talking about during the seminar. Was that airlines are looking for consistentcy in your training. Funny comment from an organisation that sub contracts out all its training, to several different companies.
PPL and building with EFT, no that was changed to PamAm, but wait. According to another thread on this forum. PamAm will cease Jaa training from December. So Pilot assist will have to find another FTO to sub this part.
ATPL bought in from pooleys
CPL/IR with EFT, then PamAm, now ????
Mcc 'possibly with Multiflight'
Some consistentcy ah guys.
I am also still suspicious about these so called 'airline contacts' from a group of people with no actual airline experience.
1, ex army rotary pilot and CAP 509 rotary instructor. 1, mainly rotary freelance jocky and 1, ex raf desk driver.
Yes I know there new, but practice what you preach. Saves you looking like an idiot. :(

[kangy]

hey Ace
I havent got no beef with you, nor anybody else for that matter, everyone is entitled to their own opinion a point which I think you'd agree with me on.
PAC have never said they wasn't middle men, in fact that is one of the reasons why most students joined PAC, I mean, you wouldn't buy a 40k house without going to an estate agent - a middle man if you may, so why the hell not go to a middle man for your flight training? and if it saves you a bit of money and gets you into a job at the end, even the more better!
when I was in PanAm, this 'middle man' attitude helped me out no end, there were a few niggling probs with PanAm, a phone call to PAC & they were sorted. its all well & good going it alone, but for paying the nominal fee they charge, its a great deal better having the clout of a company looking after your interests. They never trained only with PanAm or only with EFT, but rather with both, if PanAm were full, then the students had the option of either waiting for PanAm or going to EFT - students best interests were always the primary concern, and if there was a problem, no matter how small or large, PAC jumped in very quickly to sort the matter out.
You reffered to Pooleys being used for the ATPL manuals - I assume you're studying your ATPL's and if so have probably come across these books. You'll be able to see that these books are very very good and is also seen the same way by the industry. To the point that BaE systems are using them (they train the airtours cadets), OATS have commissioned Jeppesen for their ATPL manuals who have actually sent them to Pooleys for a rewrite. No they havent got their own manuals yet, but have you seen how much information is in them to rewrite in your own way?!!! Thankfully I have regular contact with PAC with my studies and can actually see the things that go on, again they're a new company, with setting up a new company there are a lot of problems that need ironing out, but believe you and me, there are also a lot of things in the pipeline, things I personally feel that will make PAC one of the best training providers in the country. Yes I agree with you that they should have their own in house flight training, but did you know it can take a very long time to be approved as an FTO?
& finally the contacts, I'm sorry for you if you're suspicious, I would be too, but I think that you missed the whole ethos of the college when you came to the seminar... Honesty & integrity is what PAC (especially its students!) aim for, two aspects that have more or less dissapeared from the training industry at the moment and instead turned into a mega money making marketing game. I for one saw this & trusted them, along with a fair few others (yet to be proven wrong), and all firmly believe that we will get to that elusive goal of the right hand seat with the assistance of PAC. ;)

[skysoarer]

Hear hear Mr Bandit;

I assume you are referring to the Pilot Assist seminar. Was rather good I thought; explained many aspects of how they work. Any place that helps you get that all important job at the end of it deserves some credit. This thing about PanAm withdrawing JAA training soon is scary though...

SS

... "snotty nosed kid pre solo!" ... he he I like. Meao, ssss ssss....

[itchy kitchin]

There seems to be a feature about them in the aviation glossies. Have a look at this months "Todays Pilot" magazine.

...Who is wearing the orange lined headset??? :confused:

[A Very Civil Pilot]

What do PAC achieve for you that you can't do yourself with a few phonecalls/visits to the few training establishnents that we have?

Having gone to OATS SFT etc may help if you're one of the few who gets a 737 at 300 hours, but at the end of the day jobs are all down to having the licence, the hours and the availability. Do you need someone else to add a % to your £30-40,000 to get there?.

I don't know the first thing about PAC, but like all the other training businesses, they are there to get your money.

[Lightning ace]

Another point of concern I had with them and their lack of airline / market experience.
was the fact they expected all their students, after gaining their frozen ATPL via several FTO's to get an airline job strainght away.
No question of doing a FI's course to build hours because you may not gey hired straight away. I did ask them this question.
Their response was as slick as ever, to confuse the weak. "we will be training you in a consistant, structured manor. something the 'airlines' are looking for. therefore you should be fit for a job after training and building hours with a FI rating would not serve the 'airlines' any purpose"
Hello, what planet are they from. If your not CAP 509 only the very few and lucky will get that airline job straight after training.
Certainly not someone who has done their PPL with PamAm, theory back here, then gone out for CPL /IR with EFT, even had to do the tests back here, then MCC with someone else.
Heh I'm no expert. But at least I don't pretend to have all these contacts and know what the airlines will take when your ready for them.
I will be very interested to see in 12 months or so. When their first group of students are ready for the job market. How many , if any get that job or not.
Why do I get the same feeling from them as I do the labour party. A bunch of spin doctors
just out for your money. When you could get the same thing yourself without lining their pockets.... :eek:

[kangy]

yes well, another day, here we go again!

hi to civil & ace again by the way...
as far as a % goes civil, they charge less than a grand for their services, no bull, cards are laid out on the table. Not something like 10k which I think everyone imagines! You refer to the fact that like all the other FTO's out there, they're only out there to get your money... I can understand why you're so cynical as I said in an earlier post, most of the FTO's out there are out to get your money, but for some insane crazy reason, these guys I think honestly want to get you to an airline & help you on your way, call it the 'old school' way of doing things! Unfortunately jobs in this industry isn't all about having the licence, the hours & availability, just like the media industry its all about who you know as well. Most of my FO & Capt friends have got their job by playing a round of golf, a drink in a bar etc etc! (one even by getting married to an ex wife of a Capt!!!!)

Ace, fair enuff you've got your concerns, & your own opinion. oh yeah CAP509? that went out quite a long time ago! (have you done your homework?) & just a small tip (ps not meant to be sarcastic or anything!!!!) have a chat with a few training captains from the airlines (as I have done) & a fair number of them will tell you that, fair enough a FI ticket with 1500 hours is great, but more often than not, they've also got about 1000hrs worth of bad habits which they've now gotta get them out of even before they start training them on a 737!

Well this will be the last post on this subject from me, I refuse to get into a playground fight over peoples different opinions! I really do wish you all the best of luck getting to the airlines Ace, but you'll soon find out theres a very very long way to go.

In reply to your final section... you wont have to wait 12 months, I will personally hope to tell you the good news before that!
:D

[Steph Sanderson]

Just a short note really. Without giving too much away I am a student with PAC at the moment, and I can honestly say that although there were major problems with the training in the US recently due to various reasons , PAC are honest and trustworthy, and lets face it nothing in life ever goes the way you plan it to. I will say one thing though - stay away from EFT.
Hi schveetie!!! :cool:

[puma2]

In light of what has happened to PPSC, 4 Forces and the problems at Oxford, I feel I must let unsuspecting wannabees know further details about this so called College.
I was told that I would need to pay a £750 admin fee which would pay for all the services and training management to help me through my training. As well as that, I would have to do a PPl theory course even though I am a PPL holder, this would cost me £300 and I still had to pay for all the material. I don't think so.
The other concern I have is the lack of flight training provider for this school, considering they charge so much for the "admin, management fee".
Again £2150 For the ATPL theories, resonable, but, they have only one instructor and he's the Director of training, hmmm.
Think people.
BEWARE, don't get caught, ask lots of questions, better still stay away. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[kangy]

wow, its Puma 2 again!

it seems to me that you somehow have something personal against Pilot assist seeming as you've only ever had 3 posts, one of which was a 'test' to hide your e-mail address (it didn't work by the way), the second an assasination of PAC and lo & behold the third yet another assasination of PAC. so come on Puma 2, are you personally disgruntled? if so, are you sure there's not any other PERSONAL reasons?

For all of you wannabes out there, don't take a sh*t-stirrer's word for it, go to the place, talk to the students (the only ones that matter in this), talk to the Royal Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators about the reputation and intentions of PAC. Don't be a sheep listening to so called 'hear say' or people trying to bring the reputation of one of the only honest training providers out there down.
;)

hmmmm.... up the creek without a paddle?
maybe you should Row Row Row your boat....

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Bombay B Bandit ]

[kangy]

PS

for those of you who doubt PAC's airline contacts, I've just got back from a jumpseat ride to a southern european location thanks to them.... believe me it helped boost some motivation into me to get through the ATPLs!

:D :D :D

[gazelle507]

I did not want to be caught up in this debate, however it is now time to enter the fray, so to speak.
I am the Head of Training at Pilot Assist and as such am annoyed at this thread. I and my colleagues have put too much work in to making Pilot Assist a success for us and our students to see it tarnished by a person who has an axe to grind.
The facts are that we require a certain level of knowledge to enter our programme and require all students to reach that standard. If a new student has a ppl from whatever training provider, they are required to go through a foundation course at ppl level to revise, refresh and even to gain more knowledge so thier transition into the atpl's is made smoother. As can you see, we do care about our students. The main reason behind this is that the average ppl school pays only lip service to the ppl ground school and just gives the student a ppl confuser to learn.
Yes we charge an admin fee, this is because we do a huge ammount of work on thier behalf and this costs money, the new student is told of this right up front.
The £300 cost of the ppl course is you might say a deposit towards the atpl's and if the student upon completion of thier ppl, enters atpl, the £300 is taken off the cost of the atpl course.
To end this and hopefully for good, I have a staff of nine part time instructors, all of whom are highly motivated and professional and have the students' interest at heart. The College has responded to the requirements of the airlines and the students we train will have a better than average chance of getting the much coverted right hand seat.
Lets all stop throwing teddies about and behave like adults.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

gazelle507.

Hmm. I am deeply sceptical about your scheme as I have seen several people over the years making a tidy living out of offering 'guidance and advice' to Wannabes. As for claims about helping people get airline jobs I hold them in contempt be they from OATS, 02FO or any other shark willing to make such wild claims.

I'll admit that I don't know much about PAC.

What I would like you to do is to email me outlining what it is your business does, who it employs and what you charge.

No flannel please - I have worked in the FTO business and I think I know my onions. If you can convince me that you have a worthwhile product then this will be of great advantage to you - ask PAT or Clive Hughes!

I look forward to your reply with keen interest and a sceptical yet persuadable mind.

Kindest Regards,

WWW

[George T]

I have to agree with WWW,. I got in touch with PAC and the offer of guidance and advice was on the lines of trying to scare people and that PAC were the only ones who could help. I’ve see this type of approach before in all types of business and it usually leads to people been milked.

I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip other people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with you all.

I have to agree with WWW, I got in touch with PAC and the offer of guidance and advice was on the lines of trying to scare people and that PAC were the only ones who could help. I’ve see this type of approach in all types of business and it usually leads to people been milked.

I don’t doubt PAC ability to teach. I do think they will try to rip people off. It’s just my opinion that I have decided to share with all of you.

As for gazelle507 if you can’t take criticism and you’re not willing to listen then you will not improve you business! You may say I’m wrong and you don’t rip people off but that’s not important what is important is the impression I got. You lost a student have you lost any more because of the approach and attitude of PAC?

(Edited to corrected the typo’s)

[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: George T ]

[Marc Morrell]

Hmnnn,

This is my first ever posting on PPrune but I feel I have something worth saying as regards Pilot Assist College.

So far it has only been those affiliated with Pilot Assist college that have had anything to say largely in its favour. I am not currently a Pilot Assist student, however my experience with Pilot Assist is not one of Scare Tactics, Money Grabbing antics or Inconsistencies. Bar the relatively few sponsorship opportunities in this country obtaining that position in the right hand seat with a minimum of 200 hrs is like jumping from a driving license to an F1 racer.

Ive never been more dispondant than coming away from some of the larger, well-established training organisations that have no interest in whether or not I had the aptitude, intelligence or at the very least the motivation to succeed. I had the cash to pay them and that was all that mattered. How uneasy we would feel if doctors could buy their way to their qualifications. Flight training is expensive, of that there is no doubt, but the same rigorous requirements for entry into top universities should be applicable to flight training schools to protect both parties.

Pilot Assist is the ONLY college to have taken a look at the bigger picture with me, my aptitude, my qualifications and my personal qualities. Make no mistake, had I not met up to their selective requirements Id have been shown the door, no matter how much money I laid on the table. Indeed, it is because pilot assist is a new company that i have faith in them - much rests on the line as far as the founders reputations are concerned. Only those who they believe (these guys have experience here) to possess the qualities the airlines are looking for are offered a place to recieve an excellent level of training and that all important airline prep. That little bit extra that will get that position in the aviation equivalent of the F1 racer that the larger establishments fail to offer.

There are no guarantees in this business - Pilot Assist, I dont believe, are making out to be a job agency. Rather a facilitater where should the student pull their weight, then rather than a 'goodbye' once the ATPL has been obtained the final and biggest hurdle is then jumped with you but not for you.

This is a refreshing approach to flight training - its far easier to see the bad than the good in anything in life - but lets gets behind this one, it could be ground breaking in a very positive manner.

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: First Officer Morrell ]

[sydneyc]

I agree with the sentiments in principle - it would be good to have training schools operating in a way not unlike the universities where ability and motivation are important pre-requisites for entry rather than just £50k in you pocket. It was this belief that got me along to Pilot Assist in the first place. But after a lot of posturing I just couldn't be persuaded that the company were going to ring the changes - I felt the skills and experience base amongst those working there was simply not as great as some of the other more established schools. Plus there seemed to be a flaw. I currently work in an industry where barriers to entry are high in that it is very difficult to get a foot in the door, not unlike aviation. My current industry will never change as many feel this is a good filter to test indivuals'mettle i.e. if you cannot see your way through this process then you may not want the career enough. I know this is an old-school point of view, but I certainly felt when I went to the Pilot Assist seminar that they were offering some sort of short cut and offers like that can attract the wrong people to a career.

I think the notion of tighter vetting for self sponsored students, allowing a school to develop a not-entirely-commercially-minded reputation, is an excellent one, but having witnessed the reality of the proposal I think it is going to take a while for Pilot Assist to genuinely offer the niche service they talk of.

I stress the above are my opinions based on visiting Pilot Assist college.