ATR-42 accident in West Papua

[Duck Pilot]

Reports on other forums that an ATR-42 has crashed in West Papua. The accident occurred about 50 miles from the PNG boarder up near Tabubil.

Looks like all on board didn't survive. Pretty rugged country in that area, and there's some bloody big mountains.

This topic is worthy of a mention here due its close proximity to PNG and Australia.

[mattyj]

See: you force second level operators to give up their MA-60s and old airframes because western technology is so superior and they smash them too..just more expensive

[ZFT]

54 deaths is a joking matter! Pathetic.

[Duck Pilot]

Nothing to do with the aircraft and it's origins in most cases. Most of these tragic accidents are a direct result of human factors issues.

It's easy for us to sit here and give opinions in relation to what may have happened, but we must respect the people who have been effected by this tragic even.

Media reports stating that the accident was caused by bad weather - total and utter crap. An aircraft has never crashed due to bad weather. How did the aircraft end up in the weather/location must be questioned and why? It just doesn't only involve the crew, company, country/culture, it reflects on the entire industry worldwide.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Only way I can see them ended up where they did was descending too early, trying to go around weather in the little valley bit and smacking into the mountain in the cloud.
Weather is always bad in that area (Flown it often) but its avoidable.

[PA39]

Those who have flown in that part of the world would know what happened.
It's bloody hard work.

[Duck Pilot]

Totally correct PA39, you obviously have flown in the the environment!

The skill set to fly in these environments is nothing that can be learnt from a flying school.
The skills can only be passed on from experienced pilots who care to pass on their knowledge to the new pilots.

Sadly these skill sets are deteriorating due to the junior pilots being progressed onto jets very early in their careers.

[Metro man]

Unfortunately the less experienced pilots, though we don't yet know their details in this case, get to fly less capable aircraft in extremely challenging conditions.

Dodging around mountains in bad weather and operating from marginal airports with little in the way of aids available and severe consequences in the event of a mistake isn't for everyone.

Meantime the grey beards with with thousands of hours under their belts are flying airliners from 3500m runways with multiple instrument approaches and radar control available. Their aircraft have numerous built in protections and safety features, generally operating well above the weather with first class maintenance and close oversight from the local authorities.

[evansb]

Indeed, remoteness and geography are factors. The twin turboprop operators in Alaska and northern Canada come to mind. They get summer and winter weather. Risk management and cockpit culture are other factors as well.

[ZFT]

Metro man

Unfortunately the less experienced pilots, though we don't yet know their details in this case, get to fly less capable aircraft in extremely challenging conditions.

! am not sure what you mean by less capable aircraft in this specific, tragic case?

[Metro man]

The performance of a jet enables greater climb ability with cruising levels above the weather. GPWS with ground mapping gives better situational awareness, stall prevention systems activate if the airspeed is too low.

Icing was an almost nightly occurrence when I flew turboprops with a couple of serious instances requiring immediate descent. In an A320 we can easily climb through it.

I've flown in that part of the world, a few miles the other side of the border and know what the terrain and weather conditions are like. I take my hat off to the pilots who have to deal with it on a daily basis.

[ZFT]

OK understand what you mean but in this case I doubt a jet would be suitable for the airfield and most of these routes can only be economically serviced by TPs.

Like you, I respect and appreciate the difficulties of operating in these environments.

[lilflyboy262...2]

In terms of airports in West Papua, this is a level one airport where most of the new pilots "cut their teeth"

It is a level, flat, reasonably long sealed runway.

The airport is situated in a bowl nestled in among the mountains.

The general approach is to turn up overhead the airport and then descend down to 7000ft on the south side of the airport, establishing yourself on final approach and then descending on about a 10* profile.
There is no established approach there but a majority of the operators there have home made GPS approaches.

I think Susi Air is the only one that does not have one. They turn up, if they can't find a hole in the clouds to come down through, then they go home.

For them to end up where they did...

[Duck Pilot]

10% profile that's pretty steep. The strip might be good but the terrain around it is the issue. As for DIY GPS approaches being flown in IMC, that's rediculas!

The media are now reporting that there was a heap of cash on board as well.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Sorry, meant degree and not percent, but even that is a fairly ridiculous slope yes.

Huge amounts of cash being flown around is very common. Most charter flights there are paid in cash and it is not uncommon for us to be coming home with nearly $10,000 in our pockets.

The way that the airport is situated in a "bowl" is what makes it so hard. There is no way that a conventional approach, following the rules and regs that you would find back home, would work.
And making it a VFR only airport would leave it open for maybe a few hours in the morning if you are lucky.
The homemade approaches have been made out of necessity, and to be fair, have worked very well and safely (I use that term very very very loosely).


I would suspect that these guys broke the cardinal rule there. Do not go below the safe heights off track.