Planes That Changed the World

[tdracer]

For those in the USA, Smithsonian Channel has a new series "Planes That Changed the World" - the first episode is about the SR-71. At least to me, appears to be well done, lots of interviews with "real people" including design engineers and actual SR-71 pilots (including Bill Weaver, who miraculously survived when the aircraft broke up at Mach 3 after an engine failure). Lots of interesting design details, a few I didn't know about (although they neglected my favorite bit - that they used the exhaust from another jet engine to create the proper inlet conditions for the J58 engines at Mach 3 :ok:)

Next week appears to be the DC-3/C-47.

Not sure about you folks on the other side of the pond (or the lake to the west). I watched the credits and it appears to be a Smithsonian production (unlike programs such as Air Disasters (which is 'Mayday' rebranded) so I don't know if or when it'll show up elsewhere. Even in the USA, Smithsonian channel is considered a premium channel.

[Martin the Martian]

Sounds interesting. It may pop up on one of the various satellite channels.

Of course, with a title like that, you're making problems for yourselves. DC-3 definitely, SR-71... maybe.

For what it's worth, my list would include, among others:

DC-3 (and Ju 52)
C-130
Boeing 707 (and Comet)
Boeing 747
B-29
Spitfire (and Hurricane)
U-2
Piper Cub
T-6/Harvard
Fokker Eindecker

What would others put there?

[Pontius Navigator]

Vickers Vimy - transatlantic flight
Stuka. - dive bomber definitive C AS ac
B47. - As with V Force but in large numbers
B52 definitely
Canberra. - definitive high altitude long range jet bomber
Harrier. - definitive STOL aircraft for 50 years
Mig15. - cheap cheerful and leading fighter

[VX275]

Me262
Vickers Viscount
Harrier
Concorde
Learjet
Piper Cub

[goudie]

Planes that changed the worldAny list would be more interesting if posters said why certain aircraft actually changed the world

For my money I would say the B52 and the V-Bombers for perhaps, keeping the 'cold war' cold.
For air travel I would nominate the Comet, Boeing 707 and 747 for bringing faster and cheaper air travel to the masses.

[Kitbag]

Sikorsky R4 first mass produced helicopter

[Kitbag]

Bell X-1 first supersonic ac

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Surely the plane that changed the world the most was the wright brothers, after all, it's what started the ball rolling :)

[andyy]

Gloster Whittle E28/39

[Tay Cough]

Fokker Eindecker - first synchronised forward firing machine gun
Boeing 247 - the first "modern" airliner.
Gloster Meteor/Me262 - first practical jet fighters
Arado Ar234 - first practical jet bomber
DH Comet - the first practical jet airliner
Boeing 747 - the first "jumbo" jet

[Hempy]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/u_eU-CY7VbB3FJkGOnQN-9q93Qm2jCGI1fcWTy2v9W9cTWie65ileiiYSnmC2jzDSIIT8Qn0wng6lmHrr 7BoIcQPByaf7u4ZQmzwdB0RlmS1c7Oqa0rDiL13bNBtelAEQrgY_8HlhfmsX zD0bWgpgSwO=w474-h310-nc

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/SymLPRPMyPaoJ1apY2Z6aP1Q0KmufDLZh5fqYj6TwDxfaZrgFq-KutT-2sef8-V3Yg8DF2mbhnVcEArEFBn-3i4ktGz-nAmRIX8y5gI8d3INU9lGm4wZieY5Yhv-IsSOVuFScHZlkGsSX_6WhFE=w400-h325-nc

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4gBTjoERjCn1Joyo6_blfH-YZ6dl2IVO2kZ0HEaw_IiU3mRcE-jljk45LAqhL-nBTA0zZRYeD_i4Je5qg_JyqPg9_lU_3q0=w450-h327-nc

:ok:

[thing]

DC3-first real airliner where you stood a good chance of getting to your destination alive, brought the notion of air travel to the world. Plus it did a bit in the war etc. I remember the last RAF DC 3 retiring, it would have been around 1968.

P51- the best fighter of WWII. Took the escort task all the way to Berlin and was a game changer.

Gloster E28/39-I know the Germans got there first but this was the real start of the jet era, leading to the

Comet-world beater; if only they had thought about those square windows a little more.

C-130-Ford Transit of the air.

747-mass world transport, still going strong 45 years later.

Cessna 172-more 172's have been built than any other aircraft, some 43,000 to date since 1956. What most pilots including me would have learned to fly in. Apart from the 182 probably the best all round light aircraft ever built.

[Tashengurt]

B-29? Enola Gay, Bockscar.

[Lonewolf_50]

The Flying Boats

Pan Am Clipper Flying Boats (http://www.clipperflyingboats.com/)

Before WW II, international air travel in the flying boats was a huge step in opening up what was possible for flying passengers. (Granted, only for those with a bit of money). Sikorsky S-40, S-42, and VS-44 A as well as the Boeing B-314 opened the era of intercontinental air travel. (Hmm, Martin M-130 China clipper as well).

You can see the VS-44A Excambian in the New England Air Museum in Windsor Locks, CT. The story of how that plane got there (once owned by actress Maureen O'Hara and her husband) and was restored is pretty neat.

[Ivan Rogov]

Tahengurt, just about to type that! I concur, there are more impressive and exciting 'planes' but none had such a world changing effect :\

[Fluffy Bunny]

+1 for Thing on the C152/172. No other single aircraft has made making one's own acts of aviation more accessible to the great unwashed ;)

[Royalistflyer]

After Comet - which must be there, I'd go for the Short Empire - it opened up far more long distance travel than any other flying boat.
Then there's the Handley-Page HP42/45 which was specifically intended for the London - Australia, London- South Africa routes. Not as modern as the DC3, but nonetheless in many ways a world-changer

[Danny42C]

Still small voice: Before the DC3 was the DC1 and DC2......

.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5a/Douglas_DC-1.jpg/300px-Douglas_DC-1.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Douglas_DC-1.jpg)


Here it is.

Danny.

[Tinribs]

Sorry but the last RAF DC3 has not yet retired

We had a DC3 at Farnborough in 1983 and of course that aircraft is now serving with the BofB memorial flight

[NutLoose]

Wright flyer as it started it all off.
Cessna 152 the Model T of the aviation world.
Gloster E28 brought the world into the jet age
Comet brought passenger flying into the jet age
Shorts flying boats, opened the world up to long distance flying
Concorde brought supersonic passenger flying into existence, something yet to be surpassed.

[Rick777]

I wasn't really surprised to see that nobody mentioned the Kc135. It was the forerunner of the 707 and is still the main tanker of the USAF. It is rarely mentioned except in passing in aviation books, but the rest of the USAF wouldn't be able to do much without it.

[tdracer]

Hempy, I knew that was coming :) - but I had to use the title of the program (yes, aircraft or airplanes would have been a better choice):rolleyes:


Still small voice: Before the DC3 was the DC1 and DC2......
Danny, the DC-3 episode first airs this weekend so I'm making an educated guess here, but I fully expect they will cover the evolution of the DC-3 which naturally would include the DC-1 and -2.
BTW, IIRC, the DC-1 was really just a prototype - only one built, DC-2 was the 'production' version (similar to the Dash 80 being the prototype for the KC-135 and 707)

[Senior Pilot]

Although an aircraft, rather than an aeroplane, the UH-1 Huey changed warfare as we knew it.

Surely one that changed the world :ok:

[Tashengurt]

If we say Comet is it fair to say Yoke Peter particularly? Arguably it's loss led to a greater understanding of the effects of Hull pressurisation and metal fatigue?

[Onceapilot]

IMO, Planes that changed the world (the most) were catalysts of real change, sometimes coupled with a particular engine but, not necessarily the first in a particular speciality !

Wright Flyer
Fokker Eindecker
Gotha bomber
Supermarine S6
DC2/3
Spitfire
DH Mosquito
Me262
B29
B47
Bell X-1
DH Comet
Fairey Delta 2
F-111
747
Concorde
F14
Tornado IDS
Space Shuttle
A300 two-man flightdeck
F22
:D

OAP

[Trim Stab]

I can't believe this thread has got to post 26 without mention of the Wiggins Aerodyne.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Onceapilot,

If you're having Tornado IDS then you have to add Buccaneer to that very long list of yours.

Lower, faster, further with a greater payload = Buccaneer!

Bloggs

[Onceapilot]

Hi Bloggs,
Tornado IDS gets there, mostly, for the first operational integrated all-weather, LL, nav-attack, digital computer based weapon system.:D
Also, I flew it!;)

OAP

[ShotOne]

Both very impressive aeroplanes, but were either really world changing? If that could be said of any military type it would surely be the Sturmovik.

The 747 opened up long-haul travel beyond the "jet-set". The A330 has (for better or worse) allowed people of all incomes to travel the world.

[Rhys Perraton]

Never, never call it a plane, it's an aeroplane.

[Willard Whyte]

...If you're having Tornado IDS then you're...

having a dodgy bowel movement after a king prawn phall?

[Willard Whyte]

Never, never call it a plane, it's an aeroplane.

'plane.

Aeroplane is just so faggotty and pompous.

[Cows getting bigger]

In no particular order:

UH1 - helicopter workhorse which created manoeuvre warfare.
C47/DC3 - the first realistic AT.
C130 - ubiquitous second gen AT.
HS Trident - 1st commercial Cat III autoland
747 - intercontinental travel system that created true profit
Airbus (various) - changing the World with commercial FBW ethics, but not quite there yet.
B52 - global strategic projection.
CH47 - a monster SH capability.
Predator/Global Hawk - the future.

[Willard Whyte]

IMO, Planes that changed the world (the most) were catalysts of real change, sometimes coupled with a particular engine but, not necessarily the first in a particular speciality !

Wright Flyer
Fokker Eindecker
Gotha bomber
Supermarine S6
DC2/3
Spitfire
DH Mosquito
Me262
B29
B47
Bell X-1
DH Comet
Fairey Delta 2
F-111
747
Concorde
F14
Tornado IDS
Space Shuttle
A300 two-man flightdeck
F22


OAP

Person....

[Miles Magister]

There are a few mentions of the Bell X-1 here but perhaps the posters should google the Miles M52.

I believe that the X-1 was a reworked M52 after Miles were told to send their design to the USA as part of the war reparations. The Air ministry spec for the M52 was published in 1943 with innovations such as the all flying tailplane, which Chuck Yeager publicly said was the most significant part of the X-1, and the intakes used on the SR71 specified already as designed by Frank Whittle, all back before 1943!

An interesting read. The M52 was due to be flown by Capt Eric Winkle Brown.

MM

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Boeing 314 Flying boat; probably the biggest contributor to the idea that people could fly anywhere.
Boeing 747. probably the biggest contributor to the idea that lots of people could fly anywhere.
Boeing 737 probably the biggest contributor to the idea that people could fly cheaply (almost) anywhere. Completely killed the romance of air travel as a consequence; now we just whinge about security delays.

B-29 We can hit you. The Manhattan Project cost $2bn, the B-29 cost $3bn. The weapon needs to hit the target.
B-52 We can hit you anywhere
KC-135 Anything we fly can now get anywhere and stay airborne there forever.

Mosquito, a novel idea that worked far better than anyone outside DH expected, and that has had designers ever since continually looking for novel ideas. It's the airborne equivalent of trying to design a better mousetrap.

Spitfire/Merlin - Excellence is beautiful.

Whatever you first flew solo/operationally. ;)

The DHC-2 Beaver - the airborne pick-up truck
3w_v0k57KhE

[Rhys Perraton]

AOC authorised thread drift re never call it a 'plane.

Willard said " Aeroplane is just so faggotty and pompous ".

You had better tell that to Flying Officer W.J. "Pissy" Pearson.

Matter closed.

[Roadster280]

The very first... the Wright Flyer, and those aircraft of the next 5-10 years that developed the idea of flight.

The protagonists of the BoB; had that gone awry, things would have been very different around the world. So the Hurricane, Spitfire and the Bf109.

The WW2 heavy bombers. Lancaster, B-17, B-29 and to a lesser extent the B-24, Stirling etc.

The 707 for really bringing jet travel to the fore.

The 747 for making it a bit cheaper.

Not so much an aircraft, but an idea. ETOPS. Making the world smaller and even cheaper, with the A300,310,330, 757, 767, 777. I know there are others, but you don't really want to cross the Atlantic in a 737. Nor really a 757.

The 727, 737, A319/320/321, for making the short hauls accessible to the average man/woman/family.

Military jets - the Phantom, F16, MiG 21, MiG 29, thousands upon thousands of them made.

But the one that gets my vote is the CH-47. The Wokka is a beast of a machine. It perhaps doesn't really belong in this list, but it certainly changed my world. I loved flying in those things, and hooking under them. Spending a lazy afternoon on SPTA setting up for night flying, and then controlling them at night. Calling in a missing-man formation of them at a MACR's funeral. But above all, flying in them.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3869/14442401000_f226180657_b.jpg

[stilton]

What it is is an Aircraft.

[thunderbird7]

A heavier than air flying machine - aka: an 'airplane' ;)

[megan]

I believe that the X-1 was a reworked M52The M.52 had absolutely nothing to do with the X-1 I'm afraid. A myth that is widely spread unfortunately. See my post at http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/356885-miles-m-52-x-1-again-3.html

[orca]

If you amalgamate Fox 3's top 2/3 with Roadster's I think you have your answer.

Interesting that arguably no jet fighter has changed the world. Even in the case of the Spitfire and Hurricane, you have fighters that took part in world determining events...but were actually merely a stepping stone in the line of thought that you could mount air to air and air to mud weaponry on a tactical size aircraft. I'd probably admit the P-51D managed it...'Now the bomber genuinely will always get through because we've got OCA all the way there and back'.

Plenty of aircraft can lay claim to dramatically increasing the capability shown by something else that had already changed the world, without changing the world in so doing.

Chinook is a great example. Absolutely staggering capability but no world changer. As has already been pointed out. The world changer was the ability to move troops and materiel around the battlefield without touching the ground - provided I think by the UH-1. The Chinook simply, but magnificently, exploits an already changed world.

Enjoying the British nostalgia, but considering the world outside the RAF, FAA and AAC I don't think the Bucc, Harrier family or Tornado lineage actually changed anything. Enjoy your weekends all.

[Onceapilot]

Orca,
Of course, these lists depend alot on your point of view and what criteria of "change" we use.:) However, I do think that the Me262 was the "jet fighter" that changed that branch of aviation. Also, as I have said, the Tornado IDS deserves its place due to its integrated all weather, LL, nav/attack system which certainly led to huge change, IMO!;)

OAP

[CoffmanStarter]

Anything made by de Havilland :ok:

Tiger Moth, Mosquito, Vampire, Comet, Venom, Heron, Trident ... and the Chipmunk, Beaver, Otter, Dash from DHC :)

[orca]

I don't disagree with anything you've said old chap. ME-262 changed a lot within jet fighters. How ever it appeared in a world where nazi Germany was being put to the sword, and went out of service when the deed had been done. The technology was then used in a branch of aviation that has changed beyond belief, from Sopwith Pup to F-22, without actually changing the world at any point.

Still not convinced about the IDS, just seems like another bomber trying to get through to me. Having said that I think we all agree - fighter pilots make movies, bomber pilots*, airline pilots**, and helicopter pilots*** make history. (If I tidy that up a bit it might make a decent quote!)

Best to all,;)

Orca.

*=plus that other chap/ chaps in the 'over seated' variants, plus ground crew and enablers.
**=plus whole set up from check in to G&T delivery team.
***=plus navigator, observer, crewman, diver...how many people does it take FFS!

[Wander00]

Anson TX219 - certainly changed my world......hat, coat..........big grin

[dragartist]

Hey Wander, I am guessing that you joined the mile high club in this Anson!


On serious note going back to the OP, I am not sure how the SR71 "changed the world" I have no doubt that the technology was ahead of its time and laid the path for many things to follow in materials, aerodynamics and propulsion. I say this having spent several hours in the company of Rich Graham. Without this aircraft would World War 3 have been over and done with by now?


I love the Mosquito as an example of exploiting available materials at the time and the resources (woodworkers) to build them.


TSR 2 laid the groundwork for Tonka systems according to John Forbat's book. Now this aircraft did have an impact on how we view Politics of aircraft procurement in Britain (probably not the world).


I believe Bell X1 flew only a matter of months after M52 was due to take to the air. Again Politics came to the fore. Would the world be any different had it been the other way round.


For me the Comet and hence Nimrod had the greatest impact on my life. Many hours burning the midnight oil. I must not forget the C130 or Coff would have me excommunicated from PRuNe


I think the next thing that will change the world will be Skylon.

[camelspyyder]

"Planes" is a bit limiting for me.

The Montgolfier balloon that flew 120 years before the Wright brothers seems to have been a game-changer that started it all off.

But the Boeing/North American/Douglas/Grumman -built Saturn V probably had as big a global impact as any other flying machine before or since.

LZ129 Hindenburg is another non-plane that will live in infamy for a long time too.

[thing]

Re the Saturn V I saw a great interview with John Young of Apollo XVI in which he was describing the tremendous shaking and vibration of the launch vehicle at lift off. 'You are reminded' he said ' that you are sitting on a machine built by the lowest bidder'.

[Trim Stab]

Rather than looking at history, what current aircraft will be viewed by future Ppruners as game changers?

Boeing Dreamliner?
F-35?
V-22?

[Onceapilot]

Sorry TS, none of your list.:uhoh:

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

I would definitely say the Vulcan didn't change anything; last of that generation, only a few dozen compared hundreds of B47 and several hundred B52.

The 707/KC135 OTOH

Also for practical and comfortable passenger flight, the Stratocruiser.

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, have you flown in a 787?

For a future aircraft I think it stands a chance. Ok, it has a few bells and whistles that are more glitzy than necessary and seat size and pitch is variable, but I have to say it beat the T7 hands down.

[orca]

But has it changed the world?

[Roadster280]

But has it changed the world?

I'd venture to say: no.

What will change the world is a quantum change in speed. Like Concorde, but for the masses. Better comfort, cheaper prices, all well and good, but not a game-changer. Concorde was quick, but inaccessible. My sole regret of 46 years of life is that I did not fly on her.

If London to New York for the masses becomes 3 hrs or better, that will change the world.

PS- Thanks for the "vote" on my list.

No, the Chinook doesn't belong there in general, but personally, it does. Then again, I don't imagine there are many people who flew Concorde that had been on a Wokka. And I was fortunate enough to fly them like other people take busses. Like I do Delta 717/737/757/767/A319/MD-88/90s these days.

[OK4Wire]

I don't think the Bucc, Harrier family or Tornado lineage actually changed anything

I think the Harrier did; after all it seems you can't be a modern fighter without having thrust vectoring, and the Harrier was the first to prove the concept operationally, I reckon.

[ShotOne]

Few of the aircraft listed have really changed the world, not even the magnificent Concorde. I suggest the 737 and 747 qualify as they've genuinely opened up the world for ordinary people. But in 100 yrs if anyone were able to name just one flying machine from this era it would be Saturn V.

[petit plateau]

The Harrier did change the world. Without it the UK would not have been able to retake the Falklands. The political and military repercussions of that were pivotal at a delicate point in the Cold War.

[Hempy]

FWIW, in chronological order:

Wright 1905 Flyer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/l1O9v8TKCEDqsJ_5MTeorE8DcrvAh1Ab7sa3pt5l7tvzqSnE0jdCYiQ0GRUc eEIgHR3TiyzEiOZVmTtkRBAStzb0gY0nHbCx0yE08xiQSU7yFWkO9wk3gZsI zo6ra0RsMKx9M1RuITDTNynNtmcvEizddm4hwCqkak1JZACK4Hi9X0Qdsx-JdUSNeirVH2S5WrU9sGDOxqdJbNw2O-dZoCDVf_cRe0-5FJc=w488-h302-nc
The first practical aircraft

Junkers F13

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/dsOqEFsGOdq7cR3S9x1HrfCMeSHg3I42ut77sgeUVoGR_BV8ggzpZfNEVri5 fwumEzRij-HJ7XR1cPUyWHTEVajw2GE3mUUTjkvbaXetujfmBjM1Uur477Q=w510-h289-nc
The first all metal, low wing, cantilever aircraft.

Boeing 314 Clipper

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AwMG-E5IFFW_hLFduDkYKz_ESYjKFcKCoHksiIWRuiCe5B3QZsgw9AeiC1SPssj38 P3GUsmTkB7QABFoAseUx4e6FPMAVv0itChPfTe2JgI0BM5MfpBSW33L9sl3S 2CCmQn8l1_OO8bBJJzwrn1R=w497-h296-nc
The first true intercontinental passenger aircraft.

Boeing B-29

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/-QGw0rWhox41CrMtV--spHEVPzxqpmLtj_jNzFhsxEC82ZKJzfPHvhXLDAu1PVZ-SA96VAT-qiPRdVWLDRANhQ8X-b3za_DapY_Z57D5FbD287DVuciiIw=w512-h288-nc
The first nuclear-capable aircraft. Also the first with a pressurized compartment for the flight crew.

MiG-15

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ECGsmMQxQPh0Y9PUsn2w9DYD3TYPEi9EDdRiVy9zdHTPfVcgXvP9M-TrW5I6eckFaBvGYYmxwcWiFMSS9l6yMP8HuBCtDOvSQv3KXQGtlG1z4d-is0BzePM=w547-h269-nc
Made in more numbers than any jet aircraft in history

Sikorsky S-55

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/phIUw0hEzARca1BYLmacseEf9bJtR9h2mDORwFR89eFvq8Mjf3feaHWal4W3 hPJAljBUqs9073cXULdRVvPtEcR7ZeBZUd5wioFmvUbdBJcG6oD9OidIIf0D VV4wnV3SnUbWMfTTPfcQTTvsAQ=w444-h331-nc
The first successful multi-role helicopter

Cessna 172

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4-hkV_U4zMColfpj7Rd9KFW1xL49FcEn1c11nlUTSazqNVv_0jDqP4PaqLlMIr 22o5eDBYXlIzVsKs-97uhRL_r_RE8APyGI8i99WhLMLpvuZfyJ=w467-h315-nc
The most successful mass produced light aircraft ever built

Learjet 23

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/GIdaF0glGODSwSmPjPM0ibU5xbTr3aHF_HrMSg9ebB2W1wc9-NwEdvlJ033IEo2IjlqhfgGr1_U7sdn93RQKEm5rDAsNPWoJ5ERg=w452-h165-nc
The first 'personal jet' aircraft

Boeing 747

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/_b17Zi01-DhcDJvRz8ZGKtnOJcmvVoICO0alc34Yux86DgnJoYhHWzv-yeWq5xvZq6LuLB_M-7Ya2yWg6r4IHXuv7z-_VAfLfGcvkNdJG8ezz8UCr79kRVMJl5TkOED4B4Zz_Q4=w463-h317-nc
The first and most successful wide-bodied jet airliner

General Atomics MQ-1 Predator

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ZdfJzN7LH1ITbDzcIYcyziGHn7DJl4aVTD-2dr6zdmU5OAP58qYGbxfwyNgixa0wUfED5LkvqKul9wm7zINDSilFJCGJQmh fEYgFFUv4yw=w525-h280-nc
The first successful UAV.

[Jollygreengiant64]

F35. The aircraft that brought the western world's defences to its knees.

[Courtney Mil]

The Harrier did change the world. Without it the UK would not have been able to retake the Falklands. The political and military repercussions of that were pivotal at a delicate point in the Cold War.

Without the Harrier the UK would have had to stick with proper carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers. The would have changed the Falklands War a bit.

[Cows getting bigger]

Not exactly "World changing" though.:rolleyes:

[ian16th]

Without the Harrier the UK would have had to stick with proper carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers. The would have changed the Falklands War a bit.

And Gannets in the AEW role, a very nice to have!

[Mil-26Man]

Without the Harrier the UK would have had to stick with proper carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers. The would have changed the Falklands War a bit.

IIRC, the 'proper carriers' and their associated Phantoms, Buccaneers, Gannets, etc, were going regardless, with the Harrier offering the Admiralty a handy way of keeping the fixed-wing combat aviation it was otherwise going to lose.

I'd suggest that without the Harrier, there would have been no UK carrier capability in 1982.

But 'world changing'? Not really.

[MAINJAFAD]

Junkers F13

Hempy, I would definitely put an early Junkers design in the list, but it would be the Junkers J 1 as it was the first aircraft to fly with an all metal airframe.

Other airframes that should be in the list.

George Cayley Glider - First wingborne flight.

Sikorsky’s Russky Vityaz - First large multi engined aircraft.

[tdracer]

Well I just watched this weeks episode on the DC-3. Again, well done - following the progression from the Boeing 247 to the DC-1/DC-2 (my memory hasn't failed me yet - the DC-1 was a prototype while the -2 was the production version) and how that lead to the DC-3. Mainly stuff I already knew but still interesting with lots of personal touches (interviews with some of the original "air hostesses" from the 1930's were interesting).
I've found the debates about what "airplanes" (or 'aero planes') belong on the list to be interesting (the title does specify "planes", so while I think the Saturn V was the most impressive engineering feat of my lifetime, I don't think rockets or rotorcraft belong on this list).
Much depends on how one chooses to define the criteria - for example while the Boeing 247 was revolutionary, the DC-2/3 made it work. Similarly (at least in my book), the Comet was revolutionary, but the 707 made it work. Hence the DC-2/3 makes the cut, and I'd rate the 707 above the Comet.

All that being said, the previews indicate next week will be the A380 :confused:

I'll get some popcorn :E

[Roadster280]

I wouldn't say the A380 is a game-changer. Actually, I find it mildly surprising that it took 30 years or so for either Boeing or Airbus to take the 747 idea and extend the upper deck all the way. It's an ugly mofo too.

I think we're probably 15-20 years from the return of supersonic or even hypersonic travel, and that will be the next game changer. I might just fit a flight in before I shuffle off to the business lounge in the sky.

[Genstabler]

Not a "plane" but an aircraft. The Bell 47. The first practical battlefield helicopter. A true 3 dimensional Land Rover, simple, reliable and economical. Hell, even I could fly one!

[petit plateau]

Without the Harrier the UK would have had to stick with proper carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers. The would have changed the Falklands War a bit.

- Yes it would have changed the war a bit. The war would not have taken place at all. The UK made the decision to not build CVA01, and then not to replace Ark Royal etc prior to knowing that the Sea Harrier was viable. Then the RN basically had to smuggle the Invincibles through the budget process. So no Harrier = no attempt to retake Falklands.

But 'world changing'? Not really.

- Yes it was world changing. It was the point at which the Soviet Union realised that the UK needed to be counted as well as the US, in both military and political terms. That in turn caused them to think again about the resolve of the remainder of the Western allies. On the other side of the equation it led to a renewed confidence in the allies within the USA, most especially and directly between Reagan-Thatcher at a personal level, but running up and down the whole system. That understanding that the allies were in it together was a part of the Reagan approach to ending the Cold War.

So yes, I do argue that the Harrier was world changing. It was a very direct link between what was militarily possible in one conflict, and then politically possible in another. And ending the Cold War definitely changed world. I'm not saying that the Harrier was solely responsible, but I am saying that the Harrier was the crucial enabler for the successful Falklands campaign and that the consequences of that were very significant in the Cold War context.

Regards, pp

[melmothtw]

It was the point at which the Soviet Union realised that the UK needed to be counted as well as the US, in both military and political terms.

I'm sure we'd like to believe that, but I doubt it. The Soviet Union ultimately collapsed because it tried to keep up with the United States in the arms race, and went bust trying. I'd suggest that countering the UK post-the-Falklands had very little to do with it.

Love the Harrier though.

[PTR 175]

George Cayley Glider - First wingborne flight with the world's first airborne coachman on board. George did not fancy it himself !

[petit plateau]

Melmoth,

In many ways the Harrier deserves inclusion simply as a technical product. But I think the case is stronger because of the wider political and military results of its existence, that otherwise would not have happened at all. Therefore it's world-changing nature is because of the wider political/strategic consequences. Some quotes are useful:

.........A second major effect was a reaffirmation of the special relationship between the US and UK. .... but the more obvious result was the common alignment of Britain and the USA in a more confrontational foreign policy against the Soviet bloc, sometimes known as the Second Cold War.

.........Militarily, the Falklands conflict remains the largest air-naval combat operation between modern forces since the end of the Second World War.

.......... For the Soviet and Warsaw Pact militaries, the Falklands War forced a re-examination of their estimates of the quality of Western troops, and particularly how well all-volunteer forces compared with conscripted forces. The Soviets became aware that the British relied heavily on the quality and training of its personnel

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_Falklands_War)


For the United States, there were lessons on three distinct levels...

One level was that of grand alliance strategy. Before the war broke out, Americans tended to assume that they led an alliance of completely like-minded governments against the Soviets; all other governments were neutral, leaning one way or another. ...

A second level was political. In 1982, many in the Soviet leadership believed that the West had lost so much of its morale that its end was inevitable, and perhaps even near. The Soviets themselves were in trouble, but they thought they could survive. The Argentinians clearly thought much the same thing about the British.......
British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher didn’t agree. Like U.S. President Ronald Reagan, she did not think the West was dying, let alone dead. ........ In effect, Thatcher saw the Falklands War as the great test: Were the British locked into decline, or did they have a future? .......

The Soviet leadership was shocked. The West was still a serious threat. The Soviets found themselves taking Western initiatives, such as Reagan’s “Star Wars,” very seriously indeed. Thatcher’s was not, of course, the only demonstration of Western resolve; at about the same time, the Russians found it impossible to intimidate NATO governments that had decided to accept the deployment of U.S. Pershing and Tomahawk missiles on their soil. They, in turn, were probably much encouraged by Thatcher’s example.

..The impact on the Soviets cannot be underestimated. In 1982-83, the Soviets were increasingly aware that they had been caught up in a new revolution in military technology based on micro-computers. In the Falklands, the British fleet deployed far more computing power, for example, than the Soviets had in all their fleets. The Soviet problem was that their economy had been contracting for years. It did not have the stretch it needed to compete on these new terms with the West, particularly while continuing to pour out existing types of weapons. Within a few years, a new Soviet leader would be chosen specifically because he promised to clean up computer production: Mikhail Gorbachev. His attempt to solve the Soviet economic problem destroyed the Soviet Union.

...The third level, the one usually emphasized, was tactical. The Falklands War was fascinating because it was a miniature version of the war U.S. naval strategists thought they might have to fight. With their missile-armed strike aircraft and their submarines, the Argentinians were a sort of small-scale version of the threat the Soviets posed against U.S. naval strike forces in the Norwegian Sea. The British task force was a small-scale version of a U.S. striking force trying to go north, to execute the evolving U.S. maritime strategy. The Argentinians had to do much what the Soviets had to do: They had to detect, track, and attack the approaching British task force. Ultimately the British had to land troops in the face of Argentinian air and ground forces.

....If the war actually pitted a miniature U.S. strike fleet against a miniature Soviet force, the success of the British showed that the full-scale strike fleet had an excellent chance of carrying out its mission, a far better chance than critics of the evolving U.S. Maritime Strategy imagined. That mattered. The Maritime Strategy greatly raised the price the Soviets would have had to pay to prepare for a war, at a time when they were badly stretched. The need for a stretch, not just for naval but for other military purposes, forced the Soviets to take measures to change their economy and their political system. It turned out that the system did not have much stretch in it, either – and the edifice collapsed. The Falklands War mattered because in important ways it was the beginning of the end of the Cold War.

from The Falklands War in Retrospect | Defense Media Network (http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-falklands-30-years-later/)

Regards, pp

[melmothtw]

No doubt the Harrier was a technical marvel PP, but the technology developed for that particular aircraft (and no other) has hardly changed the world, in my opinion.

that otherwise would not have happened at all.

Your premise for including the Harrier is that it was pivotal in retaking the Falklands, and that consequently the Soviet Union was forced to reconsider its approach to the UK and the other non-US NATO allies at a critical juncture in the Cold War

I don't dispute any of that, but in order for the Harrier to have been a 'world changing' aircraft then none of the post-Falklands history of the world would have happened without it, and we'd still be squaring up to the Soviet Union in a Cold War that never ended.

Sorry, but I don't buy that at all.

Still love the Harrier though.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Ok. World changing effect of the harrier. It allowed nations that couldn't afford proper aircraft carriers to have fixed wing fast jet naval air arms at sea.

[melmothtw]

And that changed the world, how?

[Fluffy Bunny]

Like the 747 allowed people to go to Barbados instead of Bognor....

[melmothtw]

Right you are, an aircraft that allowed Spain, India, Italy, and Thailand (no disrespect intended) to fly off the decks of ships for no other reason than they could had the same world changing effect as the passenger aircraft that arguably did more to revolutionise mass transportation than any other.

Dear lord.

[petit plateau]

Melmoth, quite a lot that happens at sea is important in the affairs of man on land even if landlubbers can't see it, regards, pp

[Fluffy Bunny]

Just applying your theory to the 747 rather than the Harrier.
It may be a great aircraft, but all it did was allow airlines to throw more people in the air at the same time for less cost per head.