Safety First

[controlledrest]

The managers are imposing new RPs to increase productivity, to get their bonuses and promotions.

It has been a long time since they rostered safely. With the increase from 700 to 900 hours, night turn arounds, loss of 5-4-3 etc etc and now 3 man Europe and 2 man Aussi one can not always safely operate the full published roster.

There is no need to get stressed by these changes. If one is not adequately rested to safely perform a duty there is a legal requirement to refuse the duty. One then should file an ASR-F. It is not hard.

I don't care anymore what they roster. I only operate if fit to do so, manning the flights I refuse is their problem (and fault), not mine.

Safety First. Its clearly up to us.

[Average Fool]

You mis-spelled it.


It's $afety

[Arfur Dent]

Just a question - When other European Airlines roster 3 crew ( and a lot do) from HKG - LHR, what is the actual crew compliment? I suspect it is a Capt and 2 FO's - maybe even 2 Capt's. The use of any SO in a 3 crew environment ULR is probably illegal.
Just sayin'
Don't allow it.........:mad:

[Max Reheat]

Rod,

Well said.

[Just Do It]

How one section of the aviation community is dealing with "lack of sleep" and a "relentless flying schedule"

a) Alcohol
b) Sleeping Tablets
c) Shoot themselves in the leg
d) Shoot themselves in the Head

Federal air marshals in disarray - CNN.com (http://us.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/federal-air-marshals-investigation/index.html)

[Pucka]

And where does it all stand on 3 man crew when one is under check or training?has Cx definitively stated what the compliment will be?jfo training on a 3 man effectively makes the whole gig a two man op.

[Shep69]

And this is the problem, Curtain Rod. Exactly correct.

Few argue that 3-man cannot be done, or even done safely.

If one is truly honest with oneself, I believe NONE of the operators (being the corporate knowledge and subject matter experts), at least after seeing how we roster, believes we will do it safely. Just like now crews will be cobbled together willy nilly without regard to rest, body clock, or anything you mentioned. Indeed what MIGHT have been a safe original crewing will have the standard and dramatic last minute changes with a smattering of whatever crew is available on whatever body clock.

Look at how we do reserve. Just like now, an individual on a 6 am to 12 pm (or later) reserve will be rung at 1030 am (with CC knowing the day prior of the roster change and new duty assignment) telling him he's on for a midnight duty ULR (or LRO). The 'balanced' body clock crewing the individual expected to see at showtime will wind up changing with him finding out at showtime that it's now 3-off clock with one on and he is now relief.

We've had a pretty good demonstration of how people are rostered on a whim over the last several months. The pilot remains the ONLY backstop in declaring unfit and preventing a fatigue related incident or accident. Moreover, it's my belief significant pressure exists not to refuse a duty (or particular type of duty) when one is not able to accomplish it safely and well rested in our present climate.

[Glass Half Empty]

"How one section of the aviation community is dealing with "lack of sleep" and a "relentless flying schedule"

a) Alcohol
b) Sleeping Tablets
c) Shoot themselves in the leg
d) Shoot themselves in the Head"

my top tip is to go for d) and if that does not work jump straight to a).

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Curtain Rod
Do not have system-wide layovers in the 18-30 hour window that is supposed to be avoided rather than standard practice

This regulation was based on UK Charter Airlines operating Day/Night rotations to Orlando using B757 equipment (so a while ago).
There is nothing for example to stop Airlines operating 18-30hrs Night - Day rotations (where 1 sleep at night on acclimatised local time can occur)
The 18-30hr rest period some 30 years on is very much valid, but it depends on the schedule.

[MENELAUS]

All correct Mr Purley from Angry. It was adopted back in the day when the hkcad just adopted all things à la UK CAA. And those MCO / UK trips were 2 men to boot. We were all a bit younger then however.